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np: UU - A New Beginning
- Thread starter RBG
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But also refuses to admit that they are " easy "
What do you mean by easy?
What do you mean by easy?
I regret not making a new account every time I make/ test a new team now... Oh well, at least I can participate in Bold voting (I think). Anyways, I'm curious to know what people had in mind for BL. Mine would be...
Borderline Potentials
>Abomasnow
Yup, that is the only overwhelming threat I have came up across in nUU. With Abomasnow out of the picture UU with have to rely on NFE's, Snover and Hippotoss, for Auto-Weather. I don't know.. Ya Know?
Borderline Potentials
>Abomasnow
Yup, that is the only overwhelming threat I have came up across in nUU. With Abomasnow out of the picture UU with have to rely on NFE's, Snover and Hippotoss, for Auto-Weather. I don't know.. Ya Know?
By easy, i mean said person will not agree or admit, that winning with Hail teams is incredibly easy. That said, no disrespect to this person as a battler, but one can win with Hail against an average player with ease, without being remotely good at this.
Im pretty the BL/UU Vote with the rating is AFTER the resets.
I second this statement. However, I personally have trouble showing respect to players who use known "broken" teams. Ugh.. I can't believe I'm actually getting worked up over this...
Well, like Kung Foo master Li Mu Bi put it-
" Real skill comes without effort "
" Real skill comes without effort "
I do believe it is "easy" (loosely used), and to be honest I planned on making a Hail team for quite some time (not that I have any experience with them :P). It shall help to make this point.
Correct.
Exclamation Point said:
Well ratings are being reset anyways, so it doesn't matter if it's abused. If it is abused, that helps to prove there is an issue. There is no need to get worked up because it's being used to make a point (hopefully), and not for personal gain. If it's not used for moral reasons like you're suggesting, then why should the moderators believe that it is "broken?"
I'm having trouble wording this so I'll make a chain of some sort...
No Effort = No Lesson/ Nothing Learned = Nothing Gained
I think..
Edit:
Lol, its late and my posts are becoming less than acceptable. Probably why I got my "I could be banned tag"... night all >.>
Also, I've already posted reasons to why I believe Abombasnow should be banned. Also there are other players here that are much better than I and are able to specifically point out the problem with hail/ aboma
That does not even make sense.
Sub-punch is not a strategy where you alternate between substitute and focus punch. It's a strategy where you put up a substitute and then keep punching until you lose your sub.
-Abamasnow blizzards/seeds/toxics
-Azum Subs
-Abamasnow Protects
-Azum Punches (fails)
-Abamasnow Blizzards <Sub probably doesn't break, you need a boost>
-Azum Punches regardless [1hko!]
Abamasnow NEEDS a grass attack to defeat Azum, and even if it has one, it can't do anything if it is the one who switches into Azum as it substitutes. Like I said, really the best a hail team can do to an azumarril behind a sub is to send out slowbro.
As for potential suspects, I've said it before probably, but the ones I'd put forward are:
-Abamosnow
-Raikou
And Raikou I'm only 50-50 on whether it even deserves that much scrutiny. The others are no biggie really. Gallade, Starapter, Shaymin-- honestly, these things are stopped much more easily than sweepers in OU.
The issue really isn't whether or not a team is "easy" in my opinion. The issue is whether or not it is broken. If a team is easy to operate with minimal prediction, but is still able to be countered with some relatively simple measures, it is just as viable as a team that is difficult to operate. The only thing we should be focused on when voting in suspects is whether or not said pokemon provides an unfair advantage or not (which has already been discussed at length.
Of course, I'm not the most experienced at competitive battling, so take my input with a grain of salt.
Of course, I'm not the most experienced at competitive battling, so take my input with a grain of salt.
If I might ask, have you ever USED a Hail team? They are not an "I win button", and have very clear weaknesses that can be exploited. I get the feeling from your posts that you didn't know how to handle Pokemon like Walrein, and it was causing frustration for you. Now that methods have been presented for dealing with Hail, perhaps you should try again? And try a Hail team yourself. Watching how people deal with your team, and how effective it is for you, might give some insight. It certainly changed my mind on the matter a bit.
Actually Tleilax, I did just go down that route. Spent about an hour attempting to make a team that didn't do so hot (granted, I suck at team building). The hard part is having the team put together. But as you mentioned, there are clearly exploitable weaknesses. -_- This is going to be more annoying than I thought.
EDIT (because this doesn't warrant it's own post): I missed the bump up announcement @_@ Damn it.
EDIT (because this doesn't warrant it's own post): I missed the bump up announcement @_@ Damn it.
Are we assuming that January statistics will come out before February 5th? If I am to be nominating suspects, I really would want to consult useage statistics and possibly even X-Act's diversity numbers to see if I have a valid case for such a Pokemon. This is not so much necessary now, as the below paragraph indicates, but what about the actual voting in a months time, will we wait for statistics then? I would like to have all the possible evidence available before I make my vote.
(I wasn't implying Doug should hurry up, the deadline is much more easily moveable, sorry if it came across like that)
EDIT: I also feel that we should be very liberal with our suspect choosing, the more Pokemon we label "this could be BL" the more people will spend time testing it and scruinising it. This is why, regardless of whether I feel they are BL or not, I will probably be nominating to majority of the controversial Pokemon that have been mentioned in this thread. I don't really have a formed opinion on such Pokemon yet, but I believe that they should be brought to the attention of the community.
(I wasn't implying Doug should hurry up, the deadline is much more easily moveable, sorry if it came across like that)
EDIT: I also feel that we should be very liberal with our suspect choosing, the more Pokemon we label "this could be BL" the more people will spend time testing it and scruinising it. This is why, regardless of whether I feel they are BL or not, I will probably be nominating to majority of the controversial Pokemon that have been mentioned in this thread. I don't really have a formed opinion on such Pokemon yet, but I believe that they should be brought to the attention of the community.
Yes, I wanted to ask that too, but I wasn't sure how to without being insensitive, because I know it's hard work, and they must be fed up with all of us asking continually.
It's just that, if, say, the OUs of UU consist of 100 Pokemon, I may be quite reluctant to nominate certain Pokemon. If, for example, the OUs of UU consist of 10 Pokemon, and they're all specifically Gallade counters, for example, I may have more evidence to nominate Gallade.
Just to make it clear, Gallade was just an example.
Actually, on the contrary, I was trying to say the same thing as you? I was tring to ask you about Azumarill's sub and Abomanasnow's defense. However wouldn't Azumarill be switching into Abomanansnow, therefore taking too much damage from the seeds and toxic. (If Azu switched in) therefore, taking both. I think this could possibly kill it if it landed on SR. Either way, it is dead the next turn.
Except these "simple measures" include one option: Clefable+Hariyama
Yes and i will not reveal the full team. I even playtested it with Snover and Glalie over Abomasnow and Walrein to see if it made a big difference. The only difference snover makes, is that it doesnt fare as a Raikou Counter(easily remedied by the rest of my team). Its so mindnumbingly boring. And Glalie doesnt have the good typing, but it makes for easy spikes, allowing Froslass to do other things.
Clefable is annoying for Hail, but remember, Clefable's stats arent THAT good, its the ability, any normal pokemon can deal with it.
Hail is one of those things that are beatable, but they do not require any sort of skill to use effectively, and it provides a monstrous advantage with the UU sweepers only carrying items such as Choice Items/Life Orb, and being unable to recover(unlike Salamence or Latias for example) like the sweepers in OU.
As good as Subpunch is once you get the Sub up, you lose to toxic Walrein if he has toxic and you don't have a sub up (because, sad as it is, Walrein outspeeds you O_o)
Various other options have been shown, and you blatantly ignored them. You don't NEED Hariyama or Clefable. You don't need direct counters to win a match. That seems to be a part of the problem. The metagame has moved beyond simply countering opposing threats. it's checking them. Working around them. Making them fight where they don't have the advantage. Just because a Pokemon doesn't have another who outright beats it doesn't make it unbalanced.
If Hail teams were that obscenely powerful, I think we'd see more complaints about them. They are GOOD, but not overpowered. There is a very key difference from being incredibly effective and being overpowered. Hail is rough for people who don't consider it when choosing Pokemon, but can be worked around without going out of one's way, which in my opinion keeps it from being broken.
Then adapt. Run Speed EVs. If something as it isn't working, find ways to make it work.
One should take the statistics with a grain of salt, though. They will include the entire month, including when the metagame was new and everyone was trying everything. Not that that will make them unusably inaccurate. Just something to keep in mind about them.
@Tleilax
Azumarill needs a ton of EVs to hit 178 Spd (168 EVs), enough to outspeed people who put the minimum 48 Spd in their Walrein, and substitute sets would much prefer more bulk.
As great as Subpunching is (some of the sweeps are magnificent), I prefer all out attacking, since it lets you take advantage of Aqua Jet, which is definitely the best priority in UU except for Absol's unreliable Sucker Punch.
Azumarill needs a ton of EVs to hit 178 Spd (168 EVs), enough to outspeed people who put the minimum 48 Spd in their Walrein, and substitute sets would much prefer more bulk.
As great as Subpunching is (some of the sweeps are magnificent), I prefer all out attacking, since it lets you take advantage of Aqua Jet, which is definitely the best priority in UU except for Absol's unreliable Sucker Punch.
First of all, no Azumarril in its right mind would ever switch into Abamasnow (unless it knew that it was this set) for fear of the extremely common wood hammer. Hail's issue with Azum is when it comes in on Walrein, screws it over with encore and gets up its sub. You would be surprised how many times Hail Teams are forced to bring in Abamasnow hoping to take down the sub at least with wood hammer.
Second, you're not going to kill Azumarril with Toxic, Blizzard, and Leech Seed, even if you throw in SR, it will get the chance to Focus Punch long before it would go down, which is why I said that particular set DOES fear Azumarril-- and every other Ice-Resist who can hit hard enough to overcome leech seed.
@Chenman-- Different sets for different teams. Also, if Walrein Toxics you and you encore it, you're going to be getting up a sub and most likely killing at least one of the enemy pokemon.
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