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CAP 7 CAP 7 - Concept Assessment
- Thread starter Magmortified
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I'm agreeing with Doug here. Let's not waste our time and energy scouting Pokemon that run obvious sets or aren't even used that often to begin with (need usage stats for that one, obviously)
But, then, once we've approximated the Pokemon we want to scout, we should also take into account how we should deal with them. Salamence, for instance, is not a pretty customer to face down if it just DD'd when you send in your Scout. It doesn't do much good using Protect or U-Turn (and giving Salamence more potential turns to DD or start hurting on you) - it's basically downright wasteful.
We should at least try to give it a method of "stopping" certain scoutworthy Pokemon, so as to actually make something like the above situation worth the effort. Such as giving it Ice Beam and enough Speed to kill Mence after a Scarf, or Ice Shard, or so on.
But, then, once we've approximated the Pokemon we want to scout, we should also take into account how we should deal with them. Salamence, for instance, is not a pretty customer to face down if it just DD'd when you send in your Scout. It doesn't do much good using Protect or U-Turn (and giving Salamence more potential turns to DD or start hurting on you) - it's basically downright wasteful.
We should at least try to give it a method of "stopping" certain scoutworthy Pokemon, so as to actually make something like the above situation worth the effort. Such as giving it Ice Beam and enough Speed to kill Mence after a Scarf, or Ice Shard, or so on.
Maybe it could be more open to use of Choice Weapons so it can scout potential Trickers. Since Platinum came out Trick is running rampant on things like Bronzong, Jirachi, Alakazam, and much more. To be able to scout against Choice-Trickers with the ability to then make them useful could be very helpful.
Perhaps this is ridiculous, but perhaps but among other things we could have some kind of reverse Download, whereby a switchin will increase a defense based upon the opponent's highest attack stat. This makes it like a psuedo-Intimidate, but not necessarily the case in mixed sets. Switching in on LOTar with a Defense boost and eating Fire Blast doesn't help that much.
I'm not sure how much we actually want to scout to be able to do. Rapid Spin might help to weed out SR Users and the like. Taunt is definitely a good consideration. SNatch, Magic Coat, all sorts of strange, esoteric moves could be used. Basically anything to figure out what an opponent is doing.
I'm not sure how much we actually want to scout to be able to do. Rapid Spin might help to weed out SR Users and the like. Taunt is definitely a good consideration. SNatch, Magic Coat, all sorts of strange, esoteric moves could be used. Basically anything to figure out what an opponent is doing.
I think that how to get it in shouldn't be the priority, but how we can get the MOST information as possible from each turn. Bringing it in repeatedly is obviously a good thing, but we shouldn't go to the depths of a Lucario typing to get this done.
The best way to get this done is NOT through U-Turn, in my opinion. It's a very good move for scouting, but it's not the best. Let's use Flygon as the example - You switch in, they bring in a Gyarados or something. This isn't giving you as much information as possible. You know they're going to bring in something that can take a hit from Flygon.
A Pokemon that is often not considered a scouter, but does it's job of causing switches very well is Breloom. This can Spore something, giving you a free turn, and while they switch out, you can use Substitute. This is a VERY good strategy, and Substitute is a move that should definitely be considered on major sets.
As for abilities, Frisk, Anticipation, and Forewarn are the obvious best choices for learning about what set the Pokemon is running.
Stats: DON'T MAKE THIS HAVE INSANE STATS. Speed is fine, but something along the lines of Dugtrio stats would be ideal. Okay, maybe a LITTLE bulkier.
It was said before that the best scouters can hit back, but I'd beg to differ for this. Fake Tears, Tickle, and the other moves mentioned by Yllnath would be more than enough to cause switches.
Extra: Causing switches is an integral part of this Pokemon's role, and it would be best utilized along with entry hazards, such as those that Fidgit provide. If we type this Pokemon JUST RIGHT so that it works well with Fidgit, we might be able to make this a scouter AND a Partner in Crime as a tribute to our TL...
The best way to get this done is NOT through U-Turn, in my opinion. It's a very good move for scouting, but it's not the best. Let's use Flygon as the example - You switch in, they bring in a Gyarados or something. This isn't giving you as much information as possible. You know they're going to bring in something that can take a hit from Flygon.
A Pokemon that is often not considered a scouter, but does it's job of causing switches very well is Breloom. This can Spore something, giving you a free turn, and while they switch out, you can use Substitute. This is a VERY good strategy, and Substitute is a move that should definitely be considered on major sets.
As for abilities, Frisk, Anticipation, and Forewarn are the obvious best choices for learning about what set the Pokemon is running.
Stats: DON'T MAKE THIS HAVE INSANE STATS. Speed is fine, but something along the lines of Dugtrio stats would be ideal. Okay, maybe a LITTLE bulkier.
It was said before that the best scouters can hit back, but I'd beg to differ for this. Fake Tears, Tickle, and the other moves mentioned by Yllnath would be more than enough to cause switches.
Extra: Causing switches is an integral part of this Pokemon's role, and it would be best utilized along with entry hazards, such as those that Fidgit provide. If we type this Pokemon JUST RIGHT so that it works well with Fidgit, we might be able to make this a scouter AND a Partner in Crime as a tribute to our TL...
How about Me First? It can check out sets AND do damage. You just never see it because the only OU pokemon that gets it is Lucario, who has much better things to do with his time. Besides, how awesome would it be to get a super effective Outrage on Salamence with CB power.
For typing, a Pursuit resistance would be good, seeing as T-tar is already beastly in CAP, and Pursuit sets will see a rise in popularity when a scout is made.
Explosion also seems like fun. It could screw up opponents planning to stat up against CAP7, thinking it's harmless. Also seeing how it likely won't be needed late game as you already know the sets, CAP7 could explode for a late game advantage. Getting a free switch in late game is always nice.
For typing, a Pursuit resistance would be good, seeing as T-tar is already beastly in CAP, and Pursuit sets will see a rise in popularity when a scout is made.
Explosion also seems like fun. It could screw up opponents planning to stat up against CAP7, thinking it's harmless. Also seeing how it likely won't be needed late game as you already know the sets, CAP7 could explode for a late game advantage. Getting a free switch in late game is always nice.
You're half right. The correct thing to do is to pair your scouter (Flygon) with something with a common weak to Flygon (sayyy...DDTar, who loses to Gyara). In this case, you bring out your scouter early to lure out Gyarados. Then, during the match, you try to eliminate it/severely cripple it. That information was vital because for all you know, they could have hoarded it until late game, upon which time you lose your DDTar heads-up against Gyara, therefore losing the match. See where I'm going here? We could easily bring Mag's concept in here too.
@hydrolphin: Me First is a horrible move on a scouter since your main goal is to find out your opponent's moveset. Say Salamence comes first on you. I'd bet it would DD up rather than Outrage straight out. Then, you lose.
Me First works just as well against a DD as a protect. Mence would just Outrage you next turn. Me First is a more offensive protect in a way. You might end up wasting a turn, but then again, you might Piss off an opponent.
In my opinion, we need CAP7 to have Roar/Whirlwind and the defenses to use them... but also enough attack/sp. attack to force switches on anything it might scare. Just a comment on the possible base stats.
EDIT: Like Skarm, only better: Spikes/TSpikes immunity, Roar/Whirlwind, enough attack to force out frail threats, etc.
EDIT: Like Skarm, only better: Spikes/TSpikes immunity, Roar/Whirlwind, enough attack to force out frail threats, etc.
An offensively minded Pokemon seems to be a better fit for this project. Top prioities in my opinion are resistances to entry hazards and status. Paralysis is a big one. If we're switching into a Blissey to scout, Thunder Wave will stop us cold, while Toxic wont be as big an issue if we switch regularly to scout.
Roar and Whirlwind I think the Pokemon should have as an option, but to be more offensive in general, using protect, U-Turn, and abilities more than phazing should be the normal set.
Roar and Whirlwind I think the Pokemon should have as an option, but to be more offensive in general, using protect, U-Turn, and abilities more than phazing should be the normal set.
Uhhh, Me First doesn't get priority, so after the DD, mence would just kill you =/
Which brings us back to the "wasted scouting" dillemma. It's a pretty dang wasteful use of a turn if you've sent Scoutmon in while Mence DDs and then you need to get the heck out of there.
So, um, yeah. We should try to identify Pokemon we want CAP7 to scout, and at the very least give it a way to threaten it.
This can be done, yes. But the ability to kill something can be a lot more effective at forcing a switch than using stat-down moves.
Scoutmon uses Fake Tears!
Opponent attacks!
Scoutmon has Ice Beam and the opponent is weak to Ice!
Opponent switches!
Scoutmon uses U-Turn!
Though, you could combine the two - could've meant that, I wasn't sure. As in, the opponent knows you have Ice Beam so they switch, and then you use Fake Tears to force another switch. You just lose a little of the offensive diversity that helps half of the combo work.
Roar/Whirlwind are interesting moves, but without very-good defenses, the negative priority limits their usefulness for scouting. So, something that could be interesting and really help it with scouting would be to give it a move to the same effect of Roar/Whirlwind, but with normal or possibly even +1 priority.
Of course, there would be obvious problems with such a move if left unchecked. Set up Stealth Rocks, switch to Scarfed CAP7, and use the move until your opponent dies of SR damage. The solution to this would be in the mechanics of Protect. That is, have the move run off the same success-meter as Protect and Detect. It would be able to force out a threat and cause maybe one more switch if it's lucky, scouting the team as it does so. It would be a very good potential move, but not broken, with Protect+the move and Scarfed uses of the move stopped from being broken by the mechanics, with Protect and Super-Roar being tied to the same success-meter, a 50% success rate on the second turn.
Another interesting thing that's getting brought up is the abilities. Both Frisk and Anticipation are very good abilities for a scout. Anticipation is a bit lacking though, but if we end up going for it and want to replace it with something a bit better, we don't want to make it too strong either. The best way of handling it, that I can think of right now, would be to mix it and Forewarn, displaying the types of any super-effective moves the opponent has on you. So, if this Pokemon has say electric and ghost weaknesses, and it faces Rotom, the ability would say something like "Rotom has Ghost and Electric moves!" Helpful for scouting a Pokemon's possible moveset, with still a bit of mystery to it since the actual moves aren't revealed. In other words, it would give more of a view into the Pokemon's filler/flexible move slots, which can be very helpful for determining which Pokemon you should be able to switch into it.
Frisk probably will still end up being the better route to go though, since it will allow you to get a feel for the actual type of moveset the Pokemon has, allowing for safer switches.
As for typing and stats, it should probably have numerous resistances and at least somewhat respectable defenses so it's able to switch in and do its job. A SR resistance would probably also be a good idea for the same reason. A pretty good speed that would probably be needed to best allow it to scout, being able to get some information before the opponent can KO it. But it can wind up with great defenses and a good movepool, it could also be able to do the job with a slow speed, but I don't think that another really bulky Pokemon is what the metagame needs, so that probably won't happen.
Finally, there's the Pokemon that we want it to counter. These will probably be things like Salamance, Lucario, and Infernape. Thus, it should have pretty good offensive stats and moves in order to threaten and deal with them.
Of course, there would be obvious problems with such a move if left unchecked. Set up Stealth Rocks, switch to Scarfed CAP7, and use the move until your opponent dies of SR damage. The solution to this would be in the mechanics of Protect. That is, have the move run off the same success-meter as Protect and Detect. It would be able to force out a threat and cause maybe one more switch if it's lucky, scouting the team as it does so. It would be a very good potential move, but not broken, with Protect+the move and Scarfed uses of the move stopped from being broken by the mechanics, with Protect and Super-Roar being tied to the same success-meter, a 50% success rate on the second turn.
Another interesting thing that's getting brought up is the abilities. Both Frisk and Anticipation are very good abilities for a scout. Anticipation is a bit lacking though, but if we end up going for it and want to replace it with something a bit better, we don't want to make it too strong either. The best way of handling it, that I can think of right now, would be to mix it and Forewarn, displaying the types of any super-effective moves the opponent has on you. So, if this Pokemon has say electric and ghost weaknesses, and it faces Rotom, the ability would say something like "Rotom has Ghost and Electric moves!" Helpful for scouting a Pokemon's possible moveset, with still a bit of mystery to it since the actual moves aren't revealed. In other words, it would give more of a view into the Pokemon's filler/flexible move slots, which can be very helpful for determining which Pokemon you should be able to switch into it.
Frisk probably will still end up being the better route to go though, since it will allow you to get a feel for the actual type of moveset the Pokemon has, allowing for safer switches.
As for typing and stats, it should probably have numerous resistances and at least somewhat respectable defenses so it's able to switch in and do its job. A SR resistance would probably also be a good idea for the same reason. A pretty good speed that would probably be needed to best allow it to scout, being able to get some information before the opponent can KO it. But it can wind up with great defenses and a good movepool, it could also be able to do the job with a slow speed, but I don't think that another really bulky Pokemon is what the metagame needs, so that probably won't happen.
Finally, there's the Pokemon that we want it to counter. These will probably be things like Salamance, Lucario, and Infernape. Thus, it should have pretty good offensive stats and moves in order to threaten and deal with them.
Well, we could give it an ability that like... Hazes the opponent on the switch =/
Another ability we could give it is anticipation, but... that's not really got anything to do with the wasted scouting thing
Another ability we could give it is anticipation, but... that's not really got anything to do with the wasted scouting thing
I suppose that a big question we need to be asking is whether or not we want CAP7 to be able to DO anything about the info it gets?
For example, let's talk about the idea of scouting items. We can give it frisk, which will help us gain info, but what do we do with it. We could possibly give CAP7 trick or knock off, which would effectively be able to mess with the items once we know they are there? This needs to be walked carefully though, as I don't think we want it to do everything by itself.
On another note, I saw that someone brought up Baton Pass earlier in this thread. I'm all for this idea. I'd love to see this be able to Scout an opponent's moves, and possibly pass a sub or stat boost to a team member, which possibly makes the information gained more effective. Again, do we want this to just gather info, or gather info and set up advantageous situations based off of what we have learned?
As far as Doug's idea, it is great, but I think there is something else worth scouting. Perhaps we could make it a lure for uncommonly used pokemon. You don't always just want to know sets, you want to know all the pokes they are using. So why not have CAP7 be able to draw out some of the less popular OUs or maybe even some BLs? If we can draw out the surprises early, they certainly become less effective.
EDIT: Oh, on the idea of doing something about the scouting moves, what about the possibility of using something like Memento when its done? This would be another way to set up an advantageous situation after we've learned the opponents moves.
For example, let's talk about the idea of scouting items. We can give it frisk, which will help us gain info, but what do we do with it. We could possibly give CAP7 trick or knock off, which would effectively be able to mess with the items once we know they are there? This needs to be walked carefully though, as I don't think we want it to do everything by itself.
On another note, I saw that someone brought up Baton Pass earlier in this thread. I'm all for this idea. I'd love to see this be able to Scout an opponent's moves, and possibly pass a sub or stat boost to a team member, which possibly makes the information gained more effective. Again, do we want this to just gather info, or gather info and set up advantageous situations based off of what we have learned?
As far as Doug's idea, it is great, but I think there is something else worth scouting. Perhaps we could make it a lure for uncommonly used pokemon. You don't always just want to know sets, you want to know all the pokes they are using. So why not have CAP7 be able to draw out some of the less popular OUs or maybe even some BLs? If we can draw out the surprises early, they certainly become less effective.
EDIT: Oh, on the idea of doing something about the scouting moves, what about the possibility of using something like Memento when its done? This would be another way to set up an advantageous situation after we've learned the opponents moves.
I haven't seen anyone mention Psych Up yet as an anti-setup move.
If the poke has good enough defenses, he could pull of Psych-Up and Baton Pass to scout and avoid getting setup upon.
I don't think Anticipate and Forewarn reveal enough useful information. Frisk would be fine, and I'd like to throw Trace out there for revealing abilities.
If the poke has good enough defenses, he could pull of Psych-Up and Baton Pass to scout and avoid getting setup upon.
I don't think Anticipate and Forewarn reveal enough useful information. Frisk would be fine, and I'd like to throw Trace out there for revealing abilities.
Why would you draw out less popular Pokemon? Half the time its dead weight on your team. It would be more effective to lure out more common sweepers so you have a greater chance to do something. Like I've said, this should lure out a common counter to an excellent late-game sweeper to either reveal its presence or full out destroy it.
Also, most of these support moves aren't really "scouting". Psych Up is gimmicky at best, and that means you have to give up two moveslots for something that will only work a quarter of the time you want it to.
Also, most of these support moves aren't really "scouting". Psych Up is gimmicky at best, and that means you have to give up two moveslots for something that will only work a quarter of the time you want it to.
Naxte, it seems very unlikely that we'll go off and create a custom phasing move, as this isn't meant to be Skarm. This is meant to scout, phasing is generally to remove threats and rack up residual damage. Phasing does help, but putting that much emphasis would make us stray from the concept.
Tennis, if we give this decent but not overpowered moves, like U-Turn, and remember to go for moves like Rock Slide instead of Stone Edge, Surf over Hydro Pump, etc, we can make an effort to keep this from being overpowered. My only concern with having it being able to hit back is that if we can get this Pokemon to viably run a Specs or Band set without any focus on scouting, this is not fulfilling our concept. Once again, Fidgit is the best example of a Pokemon with decent offense, but nothing overpowering due to movepool limitations.
Mag, I prefer having the stat lowering moves because it CAN make it a good Pokemon. Here's an example from my own experiences. I run a Fake Tears Jolteon, it's one of my favorite Pokemon. Substitute, Fake Tears, Thunderbolt and HP Ice. There's not much, besides Blissey and Tyranitar, that can reliably come in on this set of moves. But, say, they come in on Fake Tears, they would be in danger of a Thunderbolt or HP Ice that's twice as strong. Similarly, our CAP shouldn't have overpowering moves, but if they choose to stay in, it's going to hurt. If used in combination, then it can be a deadly combination. Screech, for example, when it switches in to lower the defense of a Tyranitar that comes in on you, and if they choose to stay in, they'll suffer a U-Turn that's even more powerful, but if they switch, you get more scouting done. In combination, this Pokemon would be "The Ulimate Scouter".
tl;dr Don't give this Pokemon overpowering moves, it must depend on INFORMATION and the player's intelligence in order to thrive. Risks must be made, but the payoff is just too great to ignore.
Tennis, if we give this decent but not overpowered moves, like U-Turn, and remember to go for moves like Rock Slide instead of Stone Edge, Surf over Hydro Pump, etc, we can make an effort to keep this from being overpowered. My only concern with having it being able to hit back is that if we can get this Pokemon to viably run a Specs or Band set without any focus on scouting, this is not fulfilling our concept. Once again, Fidgit is the best example of a Pokemon with decent offense, but nothing overpowering due to movepool limitations.
Mag, I prefer having the stat lowering moves because it CAN make it a good Pokemon. Here's an example from my own experiences. I run a Fake Tears Jolteon, it's one of my favorite Pokemon. Substitute, Fake Tears, Thunderbolt and HP Ice. There's not much, besides Blissey and Tyranitar, that can reliably come in on this set of moves. But, say, they come in on Fake Tears, they would be in danger of a Thunderbolt or HP Ice that's twice as strong. Similarly, our CAP shouldn't have overpowering moves, but if they choose to stay in, it's going to hurt. If used in combination, then it can be a deadly combination. Screech, for example, when it switches in to lower the defense of a Tyranitar that comes in on you, and if they choose to stay in, they'll suffer a U-Turn that's even more powerful, but if they switch, you get more scouting done. In combination, this Pokemon would be "The Ulimate Scouter".
tl;dr Don't give this Pokemon overpowering moves, it must depend on INFORMATION and the player's intelligence in order to thrive. Risks must be made, but the payoff is just too great to ignore.
Trace could help on switches, but I dont think it can really help scout. Pokemon that have avantages with both abilities are few and far between, like Porygon-Z with Adaptability and Download or Bronzong with Heatproof and Earthquake. Both are good abilities, but Bronzong goes for Levitate for the most part, and Porygon-Z goes for Download (which I disagree with). So, scouting abilities isnt top priority. If Heatran is doing nothing to a Bronzong, you know its Heatproof, but its a rare occurence, and not something I would find worth taking up an ability for.
Rock Slide is a completely retarded move but that isn't the point. The moves aren't the problem, the problem is people wanting to make this something it isn't. Baton Pass, Psych Up, even things like Trick don't gain information (well Trick does but it's hard to get rid of the information you gain afterwards!). They don't even force switches. The point of a scout is to force switches, revealing your opponent's team. Powerful attacks are part of this, because if you deal >50% to an opponent's Pokemon with a surprise attack, they need to get out, thus revealing a counter for your Scout, and possibly a late game sweeper. I want this CAP to basically combine Mag and Beej's concept in that the scout gains information about an opponent's team in order to facilitate a late-game sweep by another Pokemon.
If we give this Pokemon the ability to threaten key Pokemon right off the bat, what's stopping anyone from slapping on a Life Orb and attempting a sweep? What's really differentiating this Pokemon from any other potential sweeper that comes in on a favorable matchup and forces a switch?
'Ultimate Scout' is such a narrow goal, to ensure we stick to it, some severe move limitations are going to have to be in place, much like the focus we had in creating Fidgit.
'Ultimate Scout' is such a narrow goal, to ensure we stick to it, some severe move limitations are going to have to be in place, much like the focus we had in creating Fidgit.
I don't think a Scout it purely about forcing switches. Even if you know what Pokemon your opponent has, you still don't know what set it's using, or anything like that.
I think a Scout should be a Pokemon who can switch into another Pokemon with little risk and force it to reveal it's moveset. Some Pokemon (Lucario, Infernape, and Salamence all come to mind) are capable of several different sets, and currently, there are very few or no good switch-ins to all of the sets. I think our Scout should be able to switch into any Salamence, Lucario, or Infernape, and be sure not to take too much damage from any of it's possible moves . For example, it should be able to switch into Salamence without taking too much from a Choice Specs Draco Meteor or a Choice Band Outrage, and be able to force a Dragon Danced Mence out. We'll probably need some priority to acheive this such as Ice Shard (for Salamence) Vacuum Wave or Mach Punch (for Luke) and Aqua Jet (for Ape).
Perhaps the Pokemon could have an ability that reduces damage taken from a move if the opponent hasn't used it yet?
I think a Scout should be a Pokemon who can switch into another Pokemon with little risk and force it to reveal it's moveset. Some Pokemon (Lucario, Infernape, and Salamence all come to mind) are capable of several different sets, and currently, there are very few or no good switch-ins to all of the sets. I think our Scout should be able to switch into any Salamence, Lucario, or Infernape, and be sure not to take too much damage from any of it's possible moves . For example, it should be able to switch into Salamence without taking too much from a Choice Specs Draco Meteor or a Choice Band Outrage, and be able to force a Dragon Danced Mence out. We'll probably need some priority to acheive this such as Ice Shard (for Salamence) Vacuum Wave or Mach Punch (for Luke) and Aqua Jet (for Ape).
Perhaps the Pokemon could have an ability that reduces damage taken from a move if the opponent hasn't used it yet?
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