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np: UU - A New Beginning
- Thread starter RBG
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Gallade is a great or should I say tremendous wall breaker. It really isn't known for sweeping but if your not packing a bulky ghost type or Spiritomb it could be trouble. Staraptor kept it in check with immunity to shadow sneak and Intimidate factored in. Slowbro loves to switch in and it's respectable Sp. Def stat is good for taking Surfs from Milotic and Slowbro.
Concerning Shaymin-
I don't know about HP Rock. That means you really have to choose between Earth Power and Air Slash on the Life Orb set, which seems to be the most effective set. Earth Power means other bulky grass types wall you hard, and Air Slash means you can't scratch steels like Registeel. Seed Flare/Air Slash/Earth Power seems better than including HP Rock.
I don't know about HP Rock. That means you really have to choose between Earth Power and Air Slash on the Life Orb set, which seems to be the most effective set. Earth Power means other bulky grass types wall you hard, and Air Slash means you can't scratch steels like Registeel. Seed Flare/Air Slash/Earth Power seems better than including HP Rock.
^^^ Could go all out attacking :/
Thought of that, but that really decreases Shaymin's survivability, which is what makes it so effective. Being able to come in, do damage, then abuse Natural Cure Rests is what makes the set so effective. An all out attacking Shaymin wouldn't boast the survivability to become a part of a defensive or offensive core.
Even if you only go with just 3 moves, it's a choice between hitting fliers and hitting other grass types (mostly roserade). For now I'd say Roserade is still a much bigger issue, but shaymin will have trouble taking it down even if it has airslash (as it will either be pretty damn bulky specially or it will be packing scarf).
Of course air slash helps with tangrowth and of course, other shaymin.
Of course air slash helps with tangrowth and of course, other shaymin.
Why not run HP Ice then? Hits both Grass and Flying types for SE damage. That's what I've been using on my Shaymin, and I haven't regretted losing Air Slash yet.
Actually if you're packing Spiritomb you need Shadow Sneak to win, and every other Ghost loses to SD Gallade.
Shaymin also eats most of the spinners (Claydol, Donphan, Blastoise, etc.) >>
Why nintendo, why did you make the only way to get rid of rocks such a crappy-ass move learned by so few? >>
Why nintendo, why did you make the only way to get rid of rocks such a crappy-ass move learned by so few? >>
Chris, what moveset do you use on Scarf Drapion? I seem to have a rather large Shaymin(and Raikou, as SDS showed me) weakness since I removed Staraptor and Raikou from my team.
I also agree, Shaymin was more deserving of a suspect test than Crobat. But what's done is done, and we get to try again in a month.
I also agree, Shaymin was more deserving of a suspect test than Crobat. But what's done is done, and we get to try again in a month.
Considering you only nominated Gallade and Staraptor I don't see how you have the right to complain and imply other users were stupid for making the decisions they did.
My guess would be...
Drapion (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Cross Poison
- Night Slash
- Earthquake
- Brick Break/ Fire Fang/ Pursuit/ Filler
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Edit:
Tangerine- I think Frosslass and Crobat have more effect on Shaymin than Gallade and Starptor. I understand that Staraptor can be a menace to Shaymin but when considered the grouping of voted suspects. I'm having a hard time explaining my thoughts. Perhaps you can see where I'm going.
To clarify I don't think Shaymin is Suspect material, but he's certainly more so than Froslass and Crobat. Since there was no way to make an "anti-nom" I don't see how I don't have the right to complain.
Here's my Scarf Drapion set, it's not actually offensive in that it probably doesn't 2HKO, but it's used on my stall team and combined with the Toxic damage and stuff (after some stalling from Hypno) it can "finish off" Shaymin before it Rests... It also pwned Froslass.
Drapion @ Choice Scarf
Special Defense EVs with enough for 361 Speed
- Toxic Spikes
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Taunt
Here's my Scarf Drapion set, it's not actually offensive in that it probably doesn't 2HKO, but it's used on my stall team and combined with the Toxic damage and stuff (after some stalling from Hypno) it can "finish off" Shaymin before it Rests... It also pwned Froslass.
Drapion @ Choice Scarf
Special Defense EVs with enough for 361 Speed
- Toxic Spikes
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Taunt
Chris makes an interesting point how while Shaymin is #3 in usage and Crobat is way down at #14 somehow people believe Crobat is having a greater effect on the metagame, or at least are able to better pin-point it. It's just an interesting point, despite Shaymin's seeming efficacy in the tier, no one has been able to give a tangible explanation for why it should be a UU suspect.
His posts bring up something even more interesting, why do the usage statistics seem to not agree with what people view as "broken" (sup Abomasnow at #23). This is more of a general epidemic in Pokemon and not specifically UU but the case of Shaymin versus Froslass / Crobat is a prime example here.
The prevailing argument for Crobat was because of its usage as a lead - as a "perfect" lead with ability to set up for any team, whenever two Crobats faced off in a lead, one team would automatically end up with a huge disadvantage. What it does is easily more visible and obvious than "what Shaymin does to a opposing team". Essentially, it is an easier Pokemon to argue for - much like Clefable was a very difficult Pokemon to argue for.
The viewpoint is nothing new - it has happened in OU before and not surprised it would happen again.
People will use Pokemon that suits their playstyles best - Shaymin is likely a much more versatile Pokemon or a powerful pokemon that suits any playstyle. On the other hand, Abomasnow forces you to use a hail team, while Crobat/Froslass means you are using a set up lead - their roles are very specific in many cases.
Doesn't this happen with any lead carrying Taunt or a Sleeping move that Speed ties? Lead Azelf versus Lead Azelf, Bronzong vs. Bronzong, etc.
The two times it has happened in OU were Skymin, which you and I both don't think should have been given the Uber label, and Wobbufett, which people actually refused to use. Neither of these cases apply here...
Well, in my case, I choose to not use Abomasnow as I dislike him and I believe he creates an imbalance. By using Abomasnow you restrict your own choice of pokemon that you would want to use. Shaymin on the otherhand can be thrown on essentially any team and be effective. You have to consider the use of the pokemon when looking at stats.
I agree with Tangerine here. Shaymin is kind of like Heatran or Swampert in OU-- it is just useful in a lot of situations and can go on almost any team. Still, that does not mean it's broken.
IMO, a crappy type for only one STAB and horrible base power in any of its other attacks makes shaymin a far cry from "broken" as a sweeper imo. That said, overall good stats and rest-cure and usable resistances makes it a very flexible team addition.
edit: Deoxys-S was also no-where near the top of the usage stats.
IMO, a crappy type for only one STAB and horrible base power in any of its other attacks makes shaymin a far cry from "broken" as a sweeper imo. That said, overall good stats and rest-cure and usable resistances makes it a very flexible team addition.
edit: Deoxys-S was also no-where near the top of the usage stats.
Note that I said "ideal" lead - Azelf is hardly "ideal" with the options available to deal with it (such as Lead Tar, Metagross, making taunt useless). Azelf can be metagame'd against. The problem with crobat is that it's the fastest taunter in UU save "Electrode" - which many users gave convincing reasoning why it didn't matter. Your use of examples in this case shows that you don't understand the argument at hand at all, really - especially the Bronzong part.
In fact - originally only 5 Pokemon were suspects - but we decided to add Crobat as Froslass (was only one nom away) and was the biggest "check" to Crobat leads that people mentioned.
Deoxys E, Skymin, Wobbuffet. Why does it matter what I think? What matters is what people decided. All three were Pokemon with "not much usage" that were voted decingly broken. The point applies - and your counterexample is quite pathetic as it appeals to the opinion of the poster rather than what actually happened. If you're making counter examples I recommend not using logical fallacies.
That wasn't the point. The point was that when you lead Crobat, you are usually at an advantage, and when there is a tie, 1 person ends up with the advantage because of a Speed Tie, much Like Deoxys-s and the reason it was voted uber.
Lead Stats and then Total useage stats
Code:
| 1 | Crobat | 7662 | 8.78 || 14 | 10795 | 12.37 | 71% of the time was a lead
| 3 | Froslass | 6772 | 7.76 || 7 | 12290 | 14.08 | 55% of the time used as a lead
| 5 | Abomasnow | 5140 | 5.89 || 23 | 6684 | 7.66 | 77% of the time was a leadI still don't see how the "usually at an advantage plus a speed tie against opponents leads to an imbalance" argument applies to Crobat but not Azelf. Considering Crobat can be outsped by a number of Choice Scarfers (Scarf Raikou comes to mind, but I haven't actually run calcs so I don't know if it OHKOs but neither did the Suspect arguers), many more than Deoxys-E could be, I'm beginning to think people were reacting to a trend by Suspecting it. This stifles development in countertrends which could beat Crobat. It'd be as if we removed Azelf from OU to test if suicide leads were broken the month they were put in play, before scarfachi and metagross came about.
Of course, "what's done is done", but maybe we should revise the Uber criterion to apply over time rather than at one time in the metagame's existence.
Of course, "what's done is done", but maybe we should revise the Uber criterion to apply over time rather than at one time in the metagame's existence.
I think you do have a valid point in that "this is because a month is too short before people get to react to it" - but in the end, "this is what people argued" - and what was accepted as "valid".
Secondly, I don't think anyone really found Azelf "broken" as Crobat to begin with - notice I said the "prevailing" argument - there are a lot of facts that support that said argument that you obviously are not considering.
Lastly - I recommend avoiding posts like the one that Caelum deleted in the future - those kinds of posts are irrelevant strawmen that show that you completely missed the point.
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