CAP 7 CAP 7 - Part 11 - Attacking Moves Discussion

[Magmortified]

Our Pokemon so far:

Name: Ultimate Scout
Description: A Pokemon that is very capable of forcing the opponent to reveal vital information about their team members and their moves using various techniques.

Type: Steel / Ghost
Ability: Frisk / Limber
Stats: 80 HP / 103 Atk / 85 Def /55 SpA /80 SpD /110 Spe

An "Attacking Move" is a move that deals significant damage to an opponent. All other moves are considered "Non-Attacking Moves". As a general rule, any move that can be used under Taunt, is considered to be an Attacking Move. However, there are a few exceptional moves that deal a small amount of damage, but their primary battle purpose is based on a secondary move effect, and Are therefore considered Non-Attacking moves. For example, Rapid Spin and Knock Off are considered to be Non-Attacking Moves, even though they can be used under Taunt. The Topic Leader has sole discretion for interpreting which moves are considered Attacking or Non-Attacking Moves for a given pokemon.

All moves will be categorized as Competitive, Non-Competitive, or Required.

• Competitive moves are moves that are viable for use in battle on a given pokemon. This categorization is applicable depending on the pokemon. Sometimes a move will be competitive on one pokemon and non-competitive for another.
• Required moves are moves that must be included in the final movepool, and are generally not up for discussion. A list of commonly Required moves can be found in X-Act's movepool guide.

Move Discussion Posting Rules

• The list of moves in this post will serve as the single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion.
• Post arguments for moves to be Allowed or Disallowed from the pokemon's final movepool. All posts should be presented with reasoning.
• Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited. Do not copy the TL's list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment, beside each one. Posts that contain lists of moves will be deleted, even if the post contains additional reasoning and content.
• The Topic Leader will update the list continuously throughout the discussion, using recent posts to determine changes to the move list. Moves may have a fluctuating status as the community debates for or against the move in response to changes in the OP.
• Posts should be based on the current state of the list in the OP. It is the responsibility of each member to check the OP before making any post in the thread. Posts that demonstrate lack of familiarity with the current OP will be deleted.
• The Topic Leader is the sole arbiter for determining "general community consensus". The TL may ignore arguments for or against certain moves, if they feel the argument is not presented with sufficient evidence or reasoning. Do not assume that the existence of a few dissenting posts will ensure that a move will be categorized as Controversial.
• All moves that are considered Competitive for this pokemon are included in the list in the OP. Non-Competitive moves should not be discussed in this thread, unless you feel they are miscategorized and should be considered Competitive (see next rule).
• If you disagree with the TL's categorization of a move as Competitive or Non-Competitive, you can post arguments in this thread, but reasoning must be supplied.

Attacking Moves List

Allowed:
-U-Turn
-Shadow Sneak
-Shadow Claw
-Bullet Punch
-Iron Head
-Shadow Punch
-Thunderpunch
-Icepunch
-Fake Out
-Thief
-Knock Off
-Firepunch
-Drain Punch
-Iron Tail
-Fire Fang
-Ice Fang
-Thunder Fang
-Aqua Tail
-Rock Slide
-Brick Break
-Shadow Force
-Body Slam
-Dig
-Bonemerang
-Stone Edge
-Superpower
-Crush Claw
-Earthquake
-Cross Chop

Controversial:
-Explosion
-Meteor Mash
-New Move
-Brave Bird

Pending:

Unallowed:
-Seed Bomb
-Leaf Blade
-Power Whip
-Volt Tackle

 

[Thorns]

First up is Shadow Sneak. I think that being able to deal swift damage to the likes of Gengar and some Rotoms is a good incentive for a STAB priority. And it does fit the scout quite well. You could revenge kill with it, then U-Tuen the hell outta there.

Also is U-turn a damaging move or not?

 

[ferron]

Also is U-turn a damaging move or not?

yes, it has 70 BP

 

[Deck Knight]

Scout Toolkit: Offensive Moves.

In order to be a good scout, several damaging moves scout be considered.

Fake Out

What good does Frisking a Sash do if you cannot deactivate it? Fake Out lets you get in a free potshot and take out that sash.

U-Turn

Nothing is more vital to a scout than getting in and getting out.

Knock Off

No enemy is as defeated as one that loses their firepower, and is summarily blocked by your defenses.

Shadow Sneak

A scout must be sneaky and hide in the shadows, to catch his foes unaware.

There's much more scout specific in support movepool, but this does it for what I consider critical damage dealing scouting moves.

According to my trend research, Ghosts always get the following offensive moves: Sucker Punch, Psychic, Dream Eater.

 

[Goodbar]

I'd go for Earthquake, I don't mind it being revenge killed by Dugtrio but I think it's unnecessary for it to suffer at Magnezone's hands, I don't think it'd be a terribly good scout if it could get trapped and killed so easily. Course this will probably be a controversial one...

 

[jagged_angel]

I'm gonna throw in support for Shadow Claw as the most reliable physical Ghost STAB and Iron Head for the Steel equivalent.

What do people think about Shadow Force and Meteor Mash? Disregarding the fact that both are signature moves, I think they could see some competitive use, SF for the sheer power and the fact that it hits through protect and Meteor Mash as it's an upgraded Steel STAB and won't be doing too much without a boost.

 

[1059860]

Scout Toolkit: Offensive Moves.

In order to be a good scout, several damaging moves scout be considered.

Fake Out

What good does Frisking a Sash do if you cannot deactivate it? Fake Out lets you get in a free potshot and take out that sash.

U-Turn

Nothing is more vital to a scout than getting in and getting out.

Knock Off

No enemy is as defeated as one that loses their firepower, and is summarily blocked by your defenses.

Shadow Sneak

A scout must be sneaky and hide in the shadows, to catch his foes unaware.

Agree with all that is listed above from Deck Knight. Besides that, Earthquake is pretty standard, because Fire type Pokemon are gaining their popularities. It's quite absurd if you scout them but then you're stuck. I know that it must have some weaknesses, but things like Dugtrio or Hippowdon or Swampert are good enough. Rather let thing thing be weak to defensive ground type tanks instead of not be able to do anything once you see a ScarfTran...

Meteor Mash & Iron Head & Shadow Punch look fit to the winning art right now.

 

[armogohma]

Yeah, it seems that the main flaw of Shadow Force - encouraging the opponent to switch to a normal type - just might help it scout. However, there's still that wasted turn...

 

[ferron]

i am all for DK's list, with the addition of Bullet Punch for priority, Drain Punch (precedent with gengar, lucario and jirachi) for survivability (which scouts need to an extent), and Explosion (precedent with metagross, bronzong, electrode, forretress, gengar, heatran, drifblim, etc.) for when you've taken too much damage from having to switch in.

Agree with all that is listed above from Deck Knight. Besides that, Earthquake is pretty standard, because Fire type Pokemon are gaining their popularities.

the only fire type in the top 10 is heatran, and there is only a second one in the top 20 (pyroak at number 17) so how are fire types gaining popularity when pyroak is LOSING popularity? the only reason to give EQ is heatran, who was discussed as a COUNTER just a short while ago...

 

[jagged_angel]

the only reason to give EQ is heatran, who was discussed as a COUNTER just a short while ago...

No, Heatran and Magnezone were agreed to be checks as best since most people realise that EQ is needed to cover all non-levitating steel types who will otherwise wall CAP7 to death. Unless you're suggesting we give CAP7 Flare Blitz?

 

[fearow23]

No, Heatran and Magnezone were agreed to be checks as best since most people realise that EQ is needed to cover all non-levitating steel types who will otherwise wall CAP7 to death. Unless you're suggesting we give CAP7 Flare Blitz?

Maybe not Flare Blitz per-say, but possible another fire-type move that wouldn't be overpowered. Fire Punch is a controversial one, but flame wheel is something to look at with 60 BP.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

EQ is going to be used more for Steel type Pokemon more than Fire type, but it helps. I would say allow CAP7 to have the Elemental Punches and Earthquake within it's movepool. I would like to suggest Blaze Kick, Aqua Tail, and maybe Rock Slide. All of them aren't super powerful and gives it somewhat good coverage.

I would that CAP7 shouldn't get any Physical Grass type moves. Removal of checks, blah blah blah.

Unless you're suggesting we give CAP7 Flare Blitz?

Erh....should I? I was thinking about Flare Blitz and Volt Tackle, but what with Phox in mind.

 

[ferron]

Maybe not Flare Blitz per-say, but possible another fire-type move that wouldn't be overpowered. Fire Punch is a controversial one, but flame wheel is something to look at with 60 BP.

mentioned flame wheel in the counters thread, but i doubt ppl will want it since it has low power and little utility.

 

[tennisace]

Meteor Mash & Iron Head & Shadow Punch look fit to the winning art right now.

Can you please not say stuff like this? Fitting the art is an absolutely horrible and invalid argument when it comes to ANYTHING in the CAP project. Art makes absolutely no difference when it comes to the competitive portion of the movepool.

 

[ferron]

EQ is going to be used more for Steel type Pokemon more than Fire type, but it helps. I would say allow CAP7 to have the Elemental Punches and Earthquake within it's movepool. I would like to suggest Blaze Kick, Aqua Tail, and maybe Rock Slide. All of them aren't super powerful and gives it somewhat good coverage.

I would that CAP7 shouldn't get any Physical Grass type moves. Removal of checks, blah blah blah.

precedent shows that only fighting types gain blaze kick and that no steel or ghost poke has ever gained aqua tail.

i have no problems with the Elemental Punches or Rock Slide

 

[ferron]

U-Turn and Shadow Sneak/Bullet Punch seem very important for a "scout" role.

Idk if the elemental punches are a must, but i would like this CAP to have Earthquake.

Maybe a stat lowering move like Metal Sound can help a lot on causing switches.
Taunt could help too, so it can destroy walls and make them switch causing more scouting.

I was thinking about the move Glare to not mention T-Wave. Having a status inducing move that goes with the ghost type seems cool.

metal sound, taunt and glare aren't attacking moves...

 

[Roserade Raider]

I also agree with Gothic Togekiss on the Elemental Punches. My only worry is that if it gets the rest of the moves he mentioned, it couldn't be checked. Blaze Kick is good for Magnezone, and Aqua Tail takes care of Dugtrio and Heatran. On the other hand though, Aqua Tail is less powerful than Earthquake against Heatran, and can cover other fire types (especially Infernape). Also, I would give it Meteor Mash. Jagged angel called it a signature move, but two pokemon get it (metagross and clefable). One move that should not be allowed is Earthquake. It gives it too much coverage against pokemon specified as "checks". I think Night Slash would be good too, if for no other reason than a movepool filler.

 

[reyscarface]

I also agree with Gothic Togekiss on the Elemental Punches. My only worry is that if it gets the rest of the moves he mentioned, it couldn't be checked. Blaze Kick is good for Magnezone, and Aqua Tail takes care of Dugtrio and Heatran. On the other hand though, Aqua Tail is less powerful than Earthquake against Heatran, and can cover other fire types (especially Infernape). Also, I would give it Meteor Mash. Jagged angel called it a signature move, but two pokemon get it (metagross and clefable). One move that should not be allowed is Earthquake. It gives it too much coverage against pokemon specified as "checks". I think Night Slash would be good too, if for no other reason than a movepool filler.

The only "counters" affected seriously by EQ are Heatran and Magnezone, and both can outspeed with a scarf, which is very common.
Bulky Waters dont care about EQ a lot.

 

[ferron]

The only "counters" affected seriously by EQ are Heatran and Magnezone, and both can outspeed with a scarf, which is very common.

oh how easily metagross is forgotten...

fire punch gets threatens all the steels people are worried about but for less power, and fewer problems with arguing checks and counters.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

precedent shows that only fighting types gain blaze kick and that no steel or ghost poke has ever gained aqua tail.

Anyway, we shouldn't care too much about in-game factors and such, mind you though that I only suggested Aqua Tail and Blaze Kick as alternative coverage moves.

One move that should not be allowed is Earthquake. It gives it too much coverage against Pokemon specified as "checks".

Majority of those checks (Bulky Water and Grounds) don't give a flying fuck about Earthquake. Earthquake is needed in order for it to not be walled to hell and back by it's metallic comrades.

 

[reyscarface]

oh how easily metagross is forgotten...

fire punch gets threatens all the steels people are worried about but for less power, and fewer problems with arguing checks and counters.

The thing with Metagross is that its very probable that CAP 7 gets Will O Wisp, with that, it makes Metagross screwed =/

 

[Atlas]

explosion is a good move for it to have when its does its job.

im for all the moves listed by deck knight as well, those are important tools for a scout.

im against iron head, meteor mash and shadow force. i think iron head's 30% flinch rate is too much for a pokemon this fast with 100% accuracy. meteor mash and shadow force are both high powered stabbed physical moves, which for the most part im against. cap7 already has a good atk and speed stat, giving him high powered physical moves would take this guy in a direction we dont want him to go in.

im ok with this having the elemental punches/fangs. theyre low base power that gives cap7 the coverage needed to come in to many opponents. in that same vein, im for giving it flamethrower, fire blast, ice beam, blizzard, thunderbolt, thunder given its very low special attack. it can threaten those 4x weak pokemon but only if you choose to ev that way.

 

[reyscarface]

Since its giong to cause a lot of switches, maybe giving it Pursuit could work.

Focus Punch can help too, when someone faces a Sub-Puncher, the best thing is to switch into something that can resist Focus Punch, whichis technically scouting.

 

[Deck Knight]

As regards to my move research: Hypnosis or no, all Ghosts get Dream Eater. That's just the way it's set up canonically. It's not a matter of agreement or disagreement, simply what is demonstrable through a thorough examination of what is.

oh how easily metagross is forgotten...

fire punch gets threatens all the steels people are worried about but for less power, and fewer problems with arguing checks and counters.

No. UnSTABBed 75 BP does not threaten steels. Just because it reads "super-effective" does not mean it threatens.

Case in Point(s):

Max Atk Ice Punch vs. Standard Hippowdon:

305 Atk vs 368 Def & 420 HP (75 Base Power): 90 - 108 (21.43% - 25.71%)

Max Atk Fire Punch vs. Standard Skarmory:

305 Atk vs 416 Def & 334 HP (75 Base Power): 80 - 96 (23.95% - 28.74%)

Max Atk Fire Punch vs. (Lev) Bronzong:

305 Atk vs 288 Def & 338 HP (75 Base Power): 114 - 136 (33.73% - 40.24%)

Max Atk Fire Punch vs. AgiliGross:

305 Atk vs 299 Def & 329 HP (75 Base Power): 112 - 132 (34.04% - 40.12%)

Hippowdon and Skarm are lost causes due to recovery.

Earthquake Vs. AgiliGross:

305 Atk vs 299 Def & 329 HP (100 Base Power): 146 - 174 (44.38% - 52.89%)

Still not great, but at least in a plausible 2HKO range with SR down or some pre-existing damage, or LO instead of Lefties.

Earthquake is a must if this wants to avoid being Steel set-up bait. Short of using Taunt (a move for another poll) as Agiligross attempts Agility, it has no hope of beating Metagross.

 

[Elevator Music]

I would prefer if it got Explosion, Earthquake, U-Turn, Meteor Mash, and Shadow Force.

The rest aren't that important beyond the elemental punches, I think it would be wise to include them in the movepool though, because Thunderpunch really will not threaten most bulky waters too much anyways.