CAP 7 CAP 7 - Part 11 - Attacking Moves Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
after some more review i would like to bring up Crunch (precendent with froslass, heatran, lucario, and steelix) for decent damage and a stat down that can cause switches, Thief (precedent with banette, drifblim, dusknoir, electrode, and scizor) for its ability to interact with frisk, and Body Slam (precedent overwhelming) for the widest neutral range on a type and status.

also, GT, please tell where on this list you see aggron and steelix..? there is no precedent for it.
 
Atlas said:
explosion is a good move for it to have when its does its job.

im for all the moves listed by deck knight as well, those are important tools for a scout.

im against iron head, meteor mash and shadow force. i think iron head's 30% flinch rate is too much for a pokemon this fast with 100% accuracy. meteor mash and shadow force are both high powered stabbed physical moves, which for the most part im against. cap7 already has a good atk and speed stat, giving him high powered physical moves would take this guy in a direction we dont want him to go in.

im ok with this having the elemental punches/fangs. theyre low base power that gives cap7 the coverage needed to come in to many opponents. in that same vein, im for giving it flamethrower, fire blast, ice beam, blizzard, thunderbolt, thunder given its very low special attack. it can threaten those 4x weak pokemon but only if you choose to ev that way.
Click to expand...
Without Iron Head and Meteor Mash though, it has practically no real reliable, good Steel STAB moves to work with. The next best would be Iron Tail, but that's very unreliable for a STAB move with only 75 accuracy, worse than even Fire Blast's 85, which is considered unreliable. After that is Steel Wing, which only has 70 BP and 90 accuracy.

I can understand not wanting to give this Meteor Mash, but Iron Head is only 80 power. The 30% flinch rate can be a bit annoying, but since it doesn't have Serene Grace, it will stay at 30% and shouldn't cause problems that often, since that's less than a one-in-three chance of happening, and that's for one flinch. Plus, this is a Steel type and Iron Head is a Platinum tutor move now, so I don't feel that Iron Head should be excluded from its movepool without very good reason, which I don't feel some worrying about flinch hax that shouldn't be happening much at all would constitute as.
 
ferron said:
after some more review i would like to bring up Crunch (precendent with froslass, heatran, lucario, and steelix) for decent damage and a stat down that can cause switches, Thief (precedent with banette, drifblim, dusknoir, electrode, and scizor) for its ability to interact with frisk, and Body Slam (precedent overwhelming) for the widest neutral range on a type and status.

also, GT, please tell where on this list you see aggron and steelix..? there is no precedent for it.
Click to expand...

Smogon website doesn't have plat tutors up yet ferron. Try here.

I am actually opposed to Explosion in this instance. Explosion isn't really conducive to scouting and is one of those moves that just makes this beg to be a standard Choice Bander and not, strictly speaking, a scout.

Do consider that at 103 Base Attack, only Golem, Azelf, and Metagross have stronger unSTABbed Explosion moves.

I also support every physical Move Tutor except the following: Seed Bomb, Gunk Shot, Superpower, Outrage, which I oppose.
 
Elevator Music said:
I would prefer if it got Explosion, Earthquake, U-Turn, Meteor Mash, and Shadow Force.

The rest aren't that important beyond the elemental punches, I think it would be wise to include them in the movepool though, because Thunderpunch really will not threaten most bulky waters too much anyways.
Click to expand...

And the moves Deck Knight listed.

103 Atk isn't sweeping material in OU and Steel and Ghost are meh STABs. This will never be a sweeper without a stat up move.
 
Im going to throw out Crush Claw, and Low Kick. Crush Claw can force switches if it manages to lower the opponents defense, pretty gimicky, but still a plausible option. Low Kick can assist against things like Snorlax, who would be a suitable counter.

Im also opposed to Explosion, due to how it doesn't help to scout, it only helps to finish.
 
Deck Knight said:
I also support every physical Move Tutor except the following: Seed Bomb, Gunk Shot, Superpower, Outrage, which I oppose.
Click to expand...
including dive? i agree with waht you said for the platinum move tutor, but only with the addition of dive to the short list of those removed.
on the special side of the move tutors i would like to Mudslap (precedent steelix, skarmory, aggron, mawile, dusknoir, metagross, registeel, empoleon, bastiodon, lucario, froslass, dialga and heatran...should just listed a couple) not as a primary attack, but rather just for the movepool,and Ominous Wind (precedent, seriously unnecessary for this one) for weaker special STAB from tutors, to the list for consideration.
 
Maybe if Doug's wins, we should use Bonemerang instead of Earthquake. 1) More flavorful. 2) Breaks subs. 3) The 90% accuracy debunks the "overpoweredness" of it.

I personally feel that Shadow Rush, and possibly Meteor Mash, are too offensive for what this Pokemon is about, but with Meteor Mash, I understand that the opportunity is too juicy to pass up. But come on, Shadow Rush? :P. This thing isn't Giratina.

Flare Blitz on EoE's would be so beautiful.

tennisace said:
Can you please not say stuff like this? Fitting the art is an absolutely horrible and invalid argument when it comes to ANYTHING in the CAP project. Art makes absolutely no difference when it comes to the competitive portion of the movepool.
Click to expand...
Hah. That's ridiculous! So EoE's could learn ThunderPunch? Dugtrio could learn Brave Bird, if we remade it?
 
I am completely against Expolsion. Then we would get a Suicide lead/scout. Also apposed to EQ or any Grass moves, to protect its counters. Flinch moves are bad for this (even Iron Head) with its speed and attack. Meteor Mash would be a better move for this.

I am going to mention Theif/Covet as a possibility combined with Frisk. Knock Off is in general better, but these aren't bad if we want to not give it TO much power.
 
Bonemerang would be cool Doug's design or no... EQ is just a bit to powerful IMO.

Edit:
ferron said:
after some more review i would like to bring up Crunch (precendent with froslass, heatran, lucario, and steelix) for decent damage and a stat down that can cause switches, Thief (precedent with banette, drifblim, dusknoir, electrode, and scizor) for its ability to interact with frisk, and Body Slam (precedent overwhelming) for the widest neutral range on a type and status.

also, GT, please tell where on this list you see aggron and steelix..? there is no precedent for it.
Click to expand...

Check this list.
 
Mrobinson587 said:
It should have some sort of Fire Move. I don't care if its Fire Blast or Flare Blitz.
I know we aren't mentioning non attacking moves but if it doesn't get even a weak fire move or it should at least then get Haze to check Scizor.

Elemental Punches and Fangs,minus Fire Punch or Fire Fang and Earthquake and are a no as this shouldn't be a revenge KOer.
Click to expand...
Why yes for Flare Blitz, but not Fire Punch? Flare Blitz is much more powerful, and neither of them are priority moves, so I'n not sure how Fire Punch would make it a "revenge KOer", but Flare Bitz wouldn't.

As for their strength, Deck Knight pointed out that neither Fire Punch, nor Earthquake (which can only barely pull off a 2HKO on Metagross and that isn't even guaranteed without Stealth Rock):
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1787076&postcount=29
 
I like most of the moves listed so far, with a few exceptions.

No Explosion, there is no need for it. Great, you can do a little damage, it is not at all a scouting technique, it is a last ditch effort to make use of great speed and good attack. There is no reason for it.

No 95 power beams, this should be obvious, just stating it just in case.

Of MM and Shadow Force, I like them, maybe only one of them though. I don't care about 'it's a trademark move!', if it fits the purpose of a scout, which this is attempting to do, we should give it a full range of options. Shadow Force has the advantage of scouting out all the normals (although a stabbed 120 power move off 103 attack is pretty powerful), MM is good for... damage. These should both be at least pushed to a vote.

I like Cross Chop, with both stabs being resisted by ghost, CAP7 needs at least a few moves to attack them. EQ leaves it completely open to Skarmory, Fire Punch leaves it open to heatran, Cross Chop gives it decent damage all round, slightly stronger than brick break, but less accurate.

Deck Knight seems to be right on track right now.
 
Naxte said:
Why yes for Flare Blitz, but not Fire Punch? Flare Blitz is much more powerful, and neither of them are priority moves, so I'n not sure how Fire Punch would make it a "revenge KOer", but Flare Bitz wouldn't.

As for their strength, Deck Knight pointed out that neither Fire Punch, nor Earthquake (which can only barely pull off a 2HKO on Metagross and that isn't even guaranteed without Stealth Rock):
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1787076&postcount=29
Click to expand...


Heh sorry Ferron people posted too quick.

And also I guess that's confusing on my part since I wrote it aa double negative. No to elemental punches and fangs with the exception of Fire since it has the typing to at least check Scizor already. That's a clearer way of wording it.
 
Guys, let's remember to avoid mentioning non-Attacking moves here.

I'd like to bring up Stone Edge. Sure it's also resisted by Steel, but, generally, I'm not sure I'd use both STABs anyways (not that much coverage to be had there), especially with U-Turn also clogging things up. Stone Edge would provide would provide more coverage in less space, i.e. hits both Gyara and Salamence. Not as hard, granted, but it allows compromise when you're picking out what you want.
 
I believe that Shadow Force could be a great move for the scout, say CAP 7 is in on a salamence. CAP 7 outspeeds and salamence uses, say, dragon dance. Then you know what kind of mence is on your hands, or salamence may switch out fearing a K.O, revealing his team.
 
Since some of you people are suggesting Flare Blitz, might I add Close Combat and Volt Tackle to the list. Don't have EQ but need a powerful move, slap on of them into your moveslot and smash things to death.

Magmortified said:
I'd like to bring up Stone Edge. Sure it's also resisted by Steel, but, generally, I'm not sure I'd use both STABs anyways (not that much coverage to be had there), especially with U-Turn also clogging things up. Stone Edge would provide would provide more coverage in less space, i.e. hits both Gyara and Salamence. Not as hard, granted, but it allows compromise when you're picking out what you want.
Click to expand...
Hmm...not sure. Stone Edge does allow for minimizing moveslots usage, but it might take too many check off the list. I'm more inclinded to try it out myself.
 
GT, I don't agree with Volt Tackle until I see some calcs. It may hit bulky waters too hard.
EDIT- Here are some calcs. I'd prefer to leave it off the movepool:

Suicune (252/252 Bold)-
305 Atk vs 361 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 146 - 174 (36.14% - 43.07%) [48 - 58 in recoil]

Vaporeon (188/252 Bold)-
305 Atk vs 240 Def & 464 HP (120 Base Power): 220 - 260 (47.41% - 56.03%) [73 - 86 in recoil]

Arghonaut (252/136 Impish)-
305 Atk vs 286 Def & 414 HP (120 Base Power): 184 - 218 (44.44% - 52.66%) [61 - 72 in recoil]

Close Combat is fine by me, though it's not hitting anything.


I actually brought up on the server that maybe we could give CAP7 a physical Seed Flare. I would just give it Seed Flare but Grass attacks are going to be a little too good at base 120 power (even if its Special Attack sucks). So like a Steel type move that has a 40% chance of lowering Def 2 stages or something.
 
Crafty Veteran said:
People are not vouching for Earthquake, Magnezone will come eventually and non-stabbed Cross Chop will fail to OHKO, Close Combat might stand a chance with Magnezone if CAP7 doesn't learn earthquake.
Click to expand...
this people, is what we call a counter, and all pokes have them. don't back a move only to get past a single poke, bc you will be doing CaP7 a disservice.
 
First off I think earthquake should be moved to allowed. The huge weaknesses to Magnezone and Heatran would be a definite problem and earthquake should be able to take care of them while still having a little problems with Heatran, although with earthquake it will still be able to be revenged killed by Dugtrio. Also, I've been think about a steel/ghost type u-turn. The STAB on steel/ghost type u-turn would be amazing.
 
ferron said:
this people, is what we call a counter, and all pokes have them. don't back a move only to get past a single poke, bc you will be doing CaP7 a disservice.
Click to expand...
EQ is going to be used to help it fend of fellow Steel type Pokemon that wall it and they're more than just Maggy and Tran. Also, if it get's Flare Blitz or Close Combat, Maggy and Tran aren't counters.
 
Iron Tail should be allowed. Accuracy is not great, but with STAB, any 100BP move is certainly competitive and should be a definite inclusion in the movepool. Particularly if Meteor Mash doesn't make it (I support MM, by the way). I'll leave it to the movepool creators to deal with any morphology issues with Iron Tail.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top