It can barely 2HKO Suicune and it needs SR to score a 2HKO on the other two....I say we can place it on the controversial list for now.
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CAP 7 CAP 7 - Part 11 - Attacking Moves Discussion
- Thread starter Magmortified
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I don't agree with Pursuit. I want my opponent to take every chance he/she is given to switch with my scout. I want to know what they have behind Door #2. I don't want them to give them any more reason to think, "Maybe I shouldn't switch" than I have to. Pursuit would most likely impede CAP7's ability to scout - assuming it could do enough damage to threaten. Either way, I don't think we should give the oppurtunity to give the opponent second thoughts... even if it isn't powerful enough, the idea of Pursuit goes against the idea of the Scout.
First of all, Bonemerang and Earthquake have the same base power. While Bonemerang is not 100% accurate, it can 'hit through subs' (just like Rock Blast can).
Speaking of Rock Blast, why not? It's a less powerful proposition than Stone Edge, but a pretty good option nonetheless, and, for all it's worth, has the same accuracy. It also has a 'record' of being learned by Pokemon that aren't Rock types, like Octillery and Wormadam (though, admittedly, all Pokemon that learn it aren't faster than 55 base Speed).
I disagree completely with Volt Tackle, but I wouldn't mind something like Thunderpunch. 120 base power and 75 base power are completely different. Remember that a higher base move power deals more damage than a higher base stat. This means that a Pokemon with 75 base Attack using Volt Tackle would deal more damage than a 120 base Attack Pokemon using Thunderpunch. Also, for comparison, count the number of non-Fire-typed Pokemon that learn Flare Blitz. That's right... there aren't any.
I also support Fake Out, Thief and Knock Off.
Speaking of Rock Blast, why not? It's a less powerful proposition than Stone Edge, but a pretty good option nonetheless, and, for all it's worth, has the same accuracy. It also has a 'record' of being learned by Pokemon that aren't Rock types, like Octillery and Wormadam (though, admittedly, all Pokemon that learn it aren't faster than 55 base Speed).
I disagree completely with Volt Tackle, but I wouldn't mind something like Thunderpunch. 120 base power and 75 base power are completely different. Remember that a higher base move power deals more damage than a higher base stat. This means that a Pokemon with 75 base Attack using Volt Tackle would deal more damage than a 120 base Attack Pokemon using Thunderpunch. Also, for comparison, count the number of non-Fire-typed Pokemon that learn Flare Blitz. That's right... there aren't any.
I also support Fake Out, Thief and Knock Off.
Each of these moves have its merits as to why or why not CAP7 should have them. I'm going to submit my reasons for each of these moves here:
EARTHQUAKE
Without a good Ground-type move, CAP7 will be walled by steels all over, especially Metagross, Skarmory, and Heatran. Metagross and Heatran can be somewhat solved by Earthquake, which has 100 base power and accuracy, making it a YES in my book.
EXPLOSION
Explosion is mainly used as a last resort move. CAP7 can use this if it wants to get a Pokemon that is causing a team trouble out of the way, but otherwise, explosion isn't needed on CAP7. since CAP7's sole purpose is scouting (hence the Ultimate Scout) I'm going to have to say NO on Explosion.
VOLT TACKLE
Overpowers CAP7 way too much, and the recoil won't be welcome. Besides, Volt Tackle is something that can be learned by Electric-types. I don't see any art submission in the current polls that can make it look like it can use Volt Tackle. This one is a NO.
METEOR MASH
This would be CAP7's strongest STAB attack. The Attack raise that might occur can cause switches to occur. If there weren't an Attack raise factor, I would vote no, but in this case, YES is my vote.
SHADOW FORCE
Sure, it breaks through Protect and has a 120 base power, but it also two hindrances to CAP7: It requires two turns, and it would completely overpower the Scout. The two turns reason is why you rarely see it on Giratina in Ubers as well, which is why this one is a NO.
BODY SLAM
Paralysis cripples a lot of fast sweepers, and forces switches. I like the idea of Body Slam, and am going with a YES vote.
THIEF
Thief gets rid of an opponent's item. However, it only does this if the user has no item. I don't want to sacrifice an item like Leftovers or a Shuca/Occa Berry, or even a Focus Sash to try and steal an opponent's Choice Band or Life Orb. I feel that Knock Off would be better at getting rid of items, so this gets a NO.
STONE EDGE
Again, this would overpower the Scout, and we would see more Choice Band and sweepers then actual scouts. Rock Slide or Rock Blast would be better choices to use because of the lower base power. Stone Edge is a NO.
THE ELEMENTAL PUNCHES
All of them get YES because of the coverage the Scout gets, and it can check Dugtrio and Skarmory as well.
FAKE OUT
This causes an opponent to flinch. This freezes opponents bar Weavile, Dragonite, and Lucario from moving for a turn, which could be helpful. However, I rarely see Fake Out causing switches, unless its the first turn of the battle and a Sash is broken. I feel that Fake Out is unneeded, so I'm voting NO.
KNOCK OFF
Gets rid of items, cripples sweepers, and totally annoys opponents and causes switches? Definite YES for me!
CROSS CHOP
Once again, power comes to mind. We don't want the Scout to be a full sweeper, just to Scout. Therefore, I'm voting NO.
DRAIN PUNCH
It does provide some reliable recovery, and isn't overly powered. I'll go with a YES.
Now, I'd like to add some moves that weren't brought up that CAP7 might want to use:
THE ELEMENTAL FANGS
Elegy's artwork is in the lead in the art polls, and I don't see it throwing punches any time soon. This is why I think the fangs should also be included.
ROCK SLIDE
This can be used over Stone Edge as a move that provides coverage, but doesn't send the power levels too high. The higher accuracy is also welcome.
BRICK BREAK
This destroys screens that were set up, ruining an opponent's chance of hoping to bolster its defenses. This may go against the idea of the Scout, however.
Now, for some ideas I agree with:
ROCK BLAST
Again, doesn't bolster power unless it hits 5 times, and still provides coverage like Rock Slide does.
HYBRID'S STEEL/GHOST U-TURN IDEA
Personally, I feel that this will make the Scout a lot more useful, as it gets a worthy STAB that it can use to scout. This isn't a neccessary move, but it is a great idea IMO.
Some things I would recommend:
Thief, Covet, Knock Off, Pluck, and/or Bug Bite, as moves that can reveal information about the opponent's item, for Scoutmons who don't pick predict as their move.
Counter, Mirror Coat, Metal Burst, Me First (assuming these count as damaging moves), Sucker Punch, and/or Rage, as moves that encourage switching/revealing more of a moveset by only working under certain conditions.
Icy Wind, Mud Shot, and any other move with a significant chance of lowering the opponent's stats, as they encourage switches. Probably not Seed Flare however.
U-Turn and Fake-Out, for their obvious scounting purposes.
Thief, Covet, Knock Off, Pluck, and/or Bug Bite, as moves that can reveal information about the opponent's item, for Scoutmons who don't pick predict as their move.
Counter, Mirror Coat, Metal Burst, Me First (assuming these count as damaging moves), Sucker Punch, and/or Rage, as moves that encourage switching/revealing more of a moveset by only working under certain conditions.
Icy Wind, Mud Shot, and any other move with a significant chance of lowering the opponent's stats, as they encourage switches. Probably not Seed Flare however.
U-Turn and Fake-Out, for their obvious scounting purposes.
Sc4rfCh0mp, I'm confused. What standards are you using to determine that a 103 Base Attack Pokemon will be overpowered with X move? For the most part, it's not that beneficial to try and make this a sweeper - even if Cross Chop or something is present, when most of its moves aren't too high in BP also (Flygon, at the very least, has high-power STABs that work great together). We're talking something along the lines of Ambipom here. I've got better things to sweep with than Ambipom.
EoE's pokemon use Thunder Punch.
"Oh shit, i don't have a Punch !"
"Oh shit, i don't have a Punch !"
I don't really consider a feline incapable punching.
I don't support Volt Tackle, either.
I do support Magnitude over Earthquake, however, seeing as its rather unusual. If Magnezone would be a counter if Cap7 did not have Earthquake, and would be risky as a counter if it did have Earthquake, then Magnitude would be an aimed-but-not-controlled sort of attack that may or may not beat Magnezone.
I don't support Volt Tackle, either.
I do support Magnitude over Earthquake, however, seeing as its rather unusual. If Magnezone would be a counter if Cap7 did not have Earthquake, and would be risky as a counter if it did have Earthquake, then Magnitude would be an aimed-but-not-controlled sort of attack that may or may not beat Magnezone.
Why does Magnezone even needs to be it's counter. Magnezone isn't it's only damn counter/check people. He has a boatload of counters/check already in line to smash this ghostly bastard from here to hell and back. Stop protecting one single Pokemon as it's worse to trying to defeat everything. You could potentially screw it over because you believed in some silly tale about EQ being broken on him.
I'm looking at potential moveslots for the Scout and whether they hinder what the Scout should be doing on teams, which is scouting. If we give CAP7 a lot of high power attacks, more people will lean towards using it for sweeping than for scouting IMO.
I do see your point though on having the majority of its moves not so high in basepower. I just want to make sure people look more at the scouting options than the 103 Base Attack.
I agree with GT here. There are a lot of potential counters to CAP7 who aren't weak to EQ. Damage calcs show that Suicune, Arghonaut, and Vappy all only get 2HKOed by a base 120 SE move that may not even be put on CAP7. From that, we can conclude that CAP7 runs into problems with bulky waters. It's not all about EQ stopping Zone and Steels, which look like obvious counters.
I'm all for EQ, Elemental Punches, Aqua Tail, Brick Break and all the scouting moves. The scouting moves allow an ultimate scout to scout, so are absolutely needed. The others all add type coverage which is a must on a pokemon with only above 103 attack and presumabaly no SD. I'm thinking about Seed Bomb. Seed bomb might be to good depending on how much it to Swampert, but most likley not.
-Earthquake-Please no. If people are afraid of magnezone, they can use shed shell.
-Explosion-Explosion=Suicide Lead... No
-Volt Tackle-Imagine... EQ/VT/Meteor Mash/Filler-Slap on a Choice band and you have a beast. You may have better things to sweep this but this could be a better option than scouting.
-Meteor Mash-Yes. This NEEDS good Stab.
-Shadow Force-Yes. Scouts normal types and resistors. Gives a good STAB.
-Body Slam-Meh I would just prefer T-Wave. No desicion yet.
-Thief-Yes. Is a scouty move, and will in no way break this.
-Stone Edge-Probably No, but I don't really care.
-Ice Punch-Not really worth using. I'll say no for now.
-Fire Punch-No. with all the steel types running around, scouting them instead of repeling them would be good. People say that so many counters is bad, but it just means more stuff to see on their team.
-Thundepunch-I am going to say yes. Bulky Waters aren't the best counters fro this, and T-Punch would give it chance against everthing but Swampert.
-Fake Out-Yes-Good scouting move
-Knock Off Yes-See Above
-Cross Chop-No, it doesn't need this.
-Drain Punch-Sure, recovery is good.
-Brick Break-Seeing as this would only offer coverage on Magnezone for the steels, I am going to say yes.
-Explosion-Explosion=Suicide Lead... No
-Volt Tackle-Imagine... EQ/VT/Meteor Mash/Filler-Slap on a Choice band and you have a beast. You may have better things to sweep this but this could be a better option than scouting.
-Meteor Mash-Yes. This NEEDS good Stab.
-Shadow Force-Yes. Scouts normal types and resistors. Gives a good STAB.
-Body Slam-Meh I would just prefer T-Wave. No desicion yet.
-Thief-Yes. Is a scouty move, and will in no way break this.
-Stone Edge-Probably No, but I don't really care.
-Ice Punch-Not really worth using. I'll say no for now.
-Fire Punch-No. with all the steel types running around, scouting them instead of repeling them would be good. People say that so many counters is bad, but it just means more stuff to see on their team.
-Thundepunch-I am going to say yes. Bulky Waters aren't the best counters fro this, and T-Punch would give it chance against everthing but Swampert.
-Fake Out-Yes-Good scouting move
-Knock Off Yes-See Above
-Cross Chop-No, it doesn't need this.
-Drain Punch-Sure, recovery is good.
-Brick Break-Seeing as this would only offer coverage on Magnezone for the steels, I am going to say yes.
Again, what do people feel about making a Steel-typed Physical Seed Flare?
I would go with Ghost-typed, but Shadow Force is already good enough at forcing a switch and Meteor Mash is only on the list because it's the strongest Steel move.
I would go with Ghost-typed, but Shadow Force is already good enough at forcing a switch and Meteor Mash is only on the list because it's the strongest Steel move.
First off, Elegy of Emptiness, art does not dictate movepool, so cut it out with the "if my design wins, we change blah".
Fake Out - Great for building up residual damage, which is good on a scout.
U-turn - Obvious, it's the scouting move, and partners well with Fake Out.
Elemental Punches - Fine, but they aren't doing much damage to anything, even bulky Water-types.
Meteor Mash - No, Iron Head is superior for the flinching, and Steel-typed Seed Flare is superior to both! The 10% Attack boost is a horrible argument, as it misses more often than Iron Head, which is more important.
Knock Off - Partners well with Frisk, so I see this working out well.
Shadow Force - Fine, I suppose, as it'll scout Normal-types, and a Sub-Shadow Force-Salac Berry set, like Bounce Gyarados, could work.
Explosion - Great for blowing up on Pokemon like Blissey after scouting your opponent's team, when our scout is useless.
Brick Break - Solid Fighting-type move that partners with CAP7's STAB Ghost-type moves. Drain Punch is inferior as it is way weaker and the healing is really "meh".
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A Steel-typed physical Seed Flare is a great option, as it gives a stronger STAB than Meteor Mash and has a better ability, and Iron Head should be an option for another STAB with accuracy.
Volt Tackle is a no-no. The only use it could be of is a CB set, which is awful on CAP7, as it:
A. Can't scout.
B. Makes it an inferior Tauros, who is almost as bulky.
Fake Out - Great for building up residual damage, which is good on a scout.
U-turn - Obvious, it's the scouting move, and partners well with Fake Out.
Elemental Punches - Fine, but they aren't doing much damage to anything, even bulky Water-types.
Meteor Mash - No, Iron Head is superior for the flinching, and Steel-typed Seed Flare is superior to both! The 10% Attack boost is a horrible argument, as it misses more often than Iron Head, which is more important.
Knock Off - Partners well with Frisk, so I see this working out well.
Shadow Force - Fine, I suppose, as it'll scout Normal-types, and a Sub-Shadow Force-Salac Berry set, like Bounce Gyarados, could work.
Explosion - Great for blowing up on Pokemon like Blissey after scouting your opponent's team, when our scout is useless.
Brick Break - Solid Fighting-type move that partners with CAP7's STAB Ghost-type moves. Drain Punch is inferior as it is way weaker and the healing is really "meh".
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A Steel-typed physical Seed Flare is a great option, as it gives a stronger STAB than Meteor Mash and has a better ability, and Iron Head should be an option for another STAB with accuracy.
Volt Tackle is a no-no. The only use it could be of is a CB set, which is awful on CAP7, as it:
A. Can't scout.
B. Makes it an inferior Tauros, who is almost as bulky.
I'm in support of Fake Out because the stun is useful on a scouter.
I'm for allowing Aqua Tail because it doesn't add any particularly broken coverage, nor has it been demonstrated to.
Also in favor of Iron Tail and Iron Head for STAB. 30% for flinch is fine. I'll leave Meteor Mash to others to bicker over.
Why are the Fangs pending? Considering that the Punches outclass them pretty much totally, shouldn't they be allowed as well if the Punches are? I guess if one wanted to eliminate any considerations of flavor from move assignation it would make sense, but otherwise they should be moved to Allowed.
No Volt Tackle. No Earthquake, but it should get the novelty Dig for killing the 'Zone/scouting levitators.
Also, are we assuming that this automatically gets Bullet Punch or Shadow Sneak? I am personally in favor of them.
I'm for allowing Aqua Tail because it doesn't add any particularly broken coverage, nor has it been demonstrated to.
Also in favor of Iron Tail and Iron Head for STAB. 30% for flinch is fine. I'll leave Meteor Mash to others to bicker over.
Why are the Fangs pending? Considering that the Punches outclass them pretty much totally, shouldn't they be allowed as well if the Punches are? I guess if one wanted to eliminate any considerations of flavor from move assignation it would make sense, but otherwise they should be moved to Allowed.
No Volt Tackle. No Earthquake, but it should get the novelty Dig for killing the 'Zone/scouting levitators.
Also, are we assuming that this automatically gets Bullet Punch or Shadow Sneak? I am personally in favor of them.
How would these sound:
Ice/Frost claw/slash, Flare/Blaze slash/claw, thunder/zap/shock/ claw/slash.
I also support Fake out. Good opportunity to rend Focus Sash useless and would be great for scouting and would go nicely with steel/ghost(or original) U-turn.
I agree, but Clefable also gets Meteor Mash. Shadow Force would force them to switch to a normal type, and help scouting. Meteor Mash could work well when paired with a Metagross on your team. You MM, then they switch to their counter, which you can focus on destroying, then sweep with 'Gross.
Agreeing with all that is on Deck Knight's move list. All are essential to a scout's move pool.
Any and all STAB moves up to and including Meteor Mash and Shadow Force are fine. Meteor Mash isn't really doing much off a 103 attack and Shadow Force, despite a base 120 power, is more of a gimmick to be exploited but the opponent rather then the user.
Elemental Punches are all necessary to keep things in check.
No high base power moves such as; Flare Blitz, Volt Tackle, Super Power, Wood Hammer, Brave Bird, Power Whip and Close Combat, should not be allowed. Otherwise all you have to do is slap on a Choice Band/Scarf and you have a competent 'Band Sweeper' or 'Scarf Revenge Killer' instead of a 'Scout'.
Earthquake, Bonemerang(awesome!), Stone Edge, Cross Chop, Aqua Tail and lower base power counterparts, are all good coverage moves and are all perfectly viable. And are needed to make sure you're not walled by everything. In general they will not be scoring KO's against any body paying proper attention. Heatran and Magnezone can just stop crying and carry a Scarf.
Focus Punch is fine since it's mainly only useful on switches and from behind a Sub.
No problem with Seed Bomb either since other then maybe Swampert, not much else even cares.
I think Explosion would be a positive inclusion into the move pool. Although clearly not a directly scouting orientated move, it does provide Scoutmon with options. Once it's fulfilled it purpose in battle it might as well be able to blow up in somethings face and make a proper exit rather then just continue on as dead weight.
Anything else has already been covered else where or is not really worthy of mention.
Any and all STAB moves up to and including Meteor Mash and Shadow Force are fine. Meteor Mash isn't really doing much off a 103 attack and Shadow Force, despite a base 120 power, is more of a gimmick to be exploited but the opponent rather then the user.
Elemental Punches are all necessary to keep things in check.
No high base power moves such as; Flare Blitz, Volt Tackle, Super Power, Wood Hammer, Brave Bird, Power Whip and Close Combat, should not be allowed. Otherwise all you have to do is slap on a Choice Band/Scarf and you have a competent 'Band Sweeper' or 'Scarf Revenge Killer' instead of a 'Scout'.
Earthquake, Bonemerang(awesome!), Stone Edge, Cross Chop, Aqua Tail and lower base power counterparts, are all good coverage moves and are all perfectly viable. And are needed to make sure you're not walled by everything. In general they will not be scoring KO's against any body paying proper attention. Heatran and Magnezone can just stop crying and carry a Scarf.
Focus Punch is fine since it's mainly only useful on switches and from behind a Sub.
No problem with Seed Bomb either since other then maybe Swampert, not much else even cares.
I think Explosion would be a positive inclusion into the move pool. Although clearly not a directly scouting orientated move, it does provide Scoutmon with options. Once it's fulfilled it purpose in battle it might as well be able to blow up in somethings face and make a proper exit rather then just continue on as dead weight.
Anything else has already been covered else where or is not really worthy of mention.
Ghost Type U-Turn:
This would be a Hugely welcome addition to CAP7. No one commented when I mentioned it on the server but since Hybrid mentioned it I thought about it more and it makes so much sense.
There are four competitive Physical Ghost moves:
Shadow Sneak 40BP
Shadow Claw 70BP
Shadow Punch 60BP
Shadow Force 120BP
As you can see, the only one with a BP of over 70 is Shadow Force. This would be a useful move on CAP7 for causing switches to resistant or Normal types but is not particularly threatening. Its lack of usage on Giratina in Ubers leads me to believe its often more of a hindrance than a help so the strongest reliable physical Ghost STAB is Shadow Claw at 70 BP. That's the same BP as U-Turn.
A typical CAP7 moveset Might look something like this (no poll jumping, just an example to illustrate my point):
U-Turn (staple move)
Substitute (good scouting move)
Yawn (to status what you cannot harm, works well with Sub)
2nd Attacking move for STAB/Coverage.
You can theorise all you want about other movesets but it's unlikely that CAP7 is going to have more than 2 attacking move slots if it wants to maximise its scouting potential.
Using the standard Bug Type U-Turn for one of those slots basically cancels out the coverage since UnSTABbed it's unlikely to do significant damage to anything other than Exeggcute.
Combining U-Turn and STAB move into one moveslot gives 3 spare for 1 attacking coverage and 2 scouting support or the other way around.
Feel free to disagree with the type of movesets you envisage this getting but you can't deny that STAB U-Turn is hugely beneficial for an Ultimate Scouter with decent Attack.
Ghost seems to make more sense than Steel as the type for a new U-Turn as it has similar coverage to regular U-Turn (you won't be using both!) and Steel has several better Physical moves already available.
This would be a Hugely welcome addition to CAP7. No one commented when I mentioned it on the server but since Hybrid mentioned it I thought about it more and it makes so much sense.
There are four competitive Physical Ghost moves:
Shadow Sneak 40BP
Shadow Claw 70BP
Shadow Punch 60BP
Shadow Force 120BP
As you can see, the only one with a BP of over 70 is Shadow Force. This would be a useful move on CAP7 for causing switches to resistant or Normal types but is not particularly threatening. Its lack of usage on Giratina in Ubers leads me to believe its often more of a hindrance than a help so the strongest reliable physical Ghost STAB is Shadow Claw at 70 BP. That's the same BP as U-Turn.
A typical CAP7 moveset Might look something like this (no poll jumping, just an example to illustrate my point):
U-Turn (staple move)
Substitute (good scouting move)
Yawn (to status what you cannot harm, works well with Sub)
2nd Attacking move for STAB/Coverage.
You can theorise all you want about other movesets but it's unlikely that CAP7 is going to have more than 2 attacking move slots if it wants to maximise its scouting potential.
Using the standard Bug Type U-Turn for one of those slots basically cancels out the coverage since UnSTABbed it's unlikely to do significant damage to anything other than Exeggcute.
Combining U-Turn and STAB move into one moveslot gives 3 spare for 1 attacking coverage and 2 scouting support or the other way around.
Feel free to disagree with the type of movesets you envisage this getting but you can't deny that STAB U-Turn is hugely beneficial for an Ultimate Scouter with decent Attack.
Ghost seems to make more sense than Steel as the type for a new U-Turn as it has similar coverage to regular U-Turn (you won't be using both!) and Steel has several better Physical moves already available.
You know, I laughed then cried when I saw this. Laughed because I thought you was joking, then cried because I realized you was serious about your suggestion. I don't know why one would suggest that we should use Dig over EQ as a way to stop Zone/Steel Type. Let's ignore the fact that Dig make you twice as vulnerable to Earthquake when used. Let's not forget that most Steel type would probably just stay in and just EQ your sad and pathetic ass back to the grave. Dig is inferior to Earthquake and in the end, CAP7 would need Earthquake in order to do it's job properly.
BTW, Scouting Leviators? You mean like Salamence/Gyarados/anything with a stat-buff? I can image how that would end.
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