CAP 7 CAP 7 - Part 11 - Attacking Moves Discussion

[Naxte]

Actually, that wouldn't occur, since Mach Booster would do damage, breaking the Azelf's sash. Your other situation is still valid though.

Eh, you're right about Focus Sash. Wasn't thinking about the "only activates when the holder is at full health" part of it as I was posting that. Azelf will still be able to get up SR though, so it's primary job is done.

And just double checking myself on my other scenario, even a Timid Life Orb Stratagem can OHKO a 4 HP/0 SpD CAP7 with Flamethrower, doing 101.99% - 120.53%.

 

[tennisace]

Yes, but they will be renamed is EoE's art wins.

What ever gave you that idea lol.

Anyway, I think Meteor Mash, Earthquake, and "Mach Booster" are too overpowering. They will all allow this to sweep through teams easily. There are only two Pokemon that get Meteor Mash, and neither of them break 70 Base speed. This is for good reason, since 20% chance of a boost is nothing to scoff at. Earthquake gives this great coverage, which I don't think it should have. Blaze Kick/Fire Punch/Cross Chop do the same thing as Earthquake, with slightly worse coverage. Shadow Force is lol really, what's to stop your opponent from switching in a Normal-type Pokemon on the off-turn and setting up, like Curselax. The same applies to Dig, except Flying-type Pokemon are much more common and you will automatically give Latias a free turn to CM.

 

[Griffin]

Shadow Force is lol really, what's to stop your opponent from switching in a Normal-type Pokemon on the off-turn and setting up, like Curselax.

You both lose one turn, and you've scouted your opponent's normal type. Also, if nothing switches in, you can be pretty sure your opponent doesn't have a normal type.

Curselax wouldn't get any more set up turns than it would coming in on any other Ghost move. Edit: Unless you come in on the charge turn of course. Didn't think about that.

Well, I still think it has some merit. The Curselax user still has to predict better to pull of that free Curse, and that would be possible in a lot of cases.

 

[tennisace]

You both lose one turn, and you've scouted your opponent's normal type. Also, if nothing switches in, you can be pretty sure your opponent doesn't have a normal type.

Curselax wouldn't get any more set up turns than it would coming in on any other Ghost move. Edit: Unless you come in on the charge turn of course. Didn't think about that.

Well, I still think it has some merit. The Curselax user still has to predict better to pull of that free Curse, and that would be possible in a lot of cases.

The thing is, if you come in on something that can't hit you, the opponent doesn't know if you're going to U-turn, use a Steel-type move, a Ghost-type move, or use a support move. They have around a 1/4 chance to get it right on average. With Shadow Force, you telegraph your next move, and the opponent can get something threatening in for free. Note that I'm not arguing against it's inclusion, by all means allow it. I just think it's an inferior move, and instead of focusing on making a new steel move, think of making a new Ghost move, which is obviously the inferior STAB.

 

[Deck Knight]

What ever gave you that idea lol.

Anyway, I think Meteor Mash, Earthquake, and "Mach Booster" are too overpowering. They will all allow this to sweep through teams easily. There are only two Pokemon that get Meteor Mash, and neither of them break 70 Base speed. This is for good reason, since 20% chance of a boost is nothing to scoff at. Earthquake gives this great coverage, which I don't think it should have.

So you want it to be like Ambipom, then. Ambipom is indeed a mighty sweeper... In UU... when Steelix, Registeel, Regirock, Claydol, and Staraptor are all KO'd.

Blaze Kick/Fire Punch/Cross Chop do the same thing as Earthquake, with slightly worse coverage. Shadow Force is lol really, what's to stop your opponent from switching in a Normal-type Pokemon on the off-turn and setting up, like Curselax. The same applies to Dig, except Flying-type Pokemon are much more common and you will automatically give Latias a free turn to CM.

Honestly I'm loling that people want to give this the same offensive movepool as Ambipom on the basis that somehow, magically, a few more support moves and a better defensive typing are going to be enough to push it into OU.

 

[Frosty]

Along some other previously mentioned moves, I believe our poke would benefit a lot from Earthquake, Superpower and Shadow Force while Leaf Blade and Power Whip would make it too good.

I believe Earthquake will do good simply because, otherwise, the omnipresent Heatran and the not-equally-common-but-extremely-more-dangerous Scarfzone would counter it quite easily. Heatran can just switch in against any move (and I doubt your fighting move of choice will deal significant damage without STAB) and force you out with the threat of a fire blast and Scarfmaggy will simply switch in and eliminate your scout before you could do anything (other than detecting Maggy in the first place). And before anyone say "but you will be removing counters/checks", I must say this isn't true. The only way you will prevent Heatran and Maggy from defeating you is if you predict the switch in and EQ...all the other situations will end up with you losing. Hell, Scizor has 130 Base Attack and Superpower and that doesn't stop Maggy and Heatran from being insanely good checks to it. Not to mention that with or without EQ this will still be walled to no end by Bulky Waters and Bulky Grounds....and we don't need to add the extremely common steels to that list, do we?

As for Superpower and Shadow Force, it is more a matter of what can do to force switches and less about coverage. Shadow Force has the disadvantage of lasting two turns, but that is actually an advantage for our scoutmon, since you can be sure that, if the opponent packs a normal type (read: Blissey and the occasional Curselax), it will switch it in to absorb Shadow Force, revealing it to you. And then you can force both out with Superpower, causing two switches with ease. Also, Superpower fits nicely the immediate power thing this should have so it can force switches (which is why this is better than cross chop or close combat, which are more suited for sweeping).


As for Leaf Blade and Power Whip, they will remove far more counters than EQ or Superpower or any other move. Their good BP + being SE against both water types and ground types will prove to be a bit too much. Also, removing the possibly best counter (Swampert) isn't the smartest move around.

 

[tennisace]

As for Leaf Blade and Power Whip, they will remove far more counters than EQ or Superpower or any other move. Their good BP + being SE against both water types and ground types will prove to be a bit too much. Also, removing the possibly best counter (Swampert) isn't the smartest strategy around.

The entire point of the counters thread was to choose what we want to counter CAP7, not what it needs to beat.

 

[cyberzero]

I disagree with Leaf Blade and Power Whip, but there is no sense in depriving CAP7 of Superpower, Earthquake, and other "too powerful" moves. Ambipom syndrome, as DK put it, is what will befall this CAP if we do remove such moves. It's tried and tested, we need some moves that can actually hurt on this thing.

 

[Frosty]

The entire point of the counters thread was to choose what we want to counter CAP7, not what it needs to beat.

I don't really understand why you are saying that, but anyway: did we actually decide on anything there? I am not being sarcastic or anything. It is just that I didn't find it conclusive enough. Some people wanted it to be countered by Steels and others found Bulky Grounds and Waters more than enough and no consensus were reached (in fact the last four posts or so discussed that).

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

The entire point of the counters thread was to choose what we want to counter CAP7, not what it needs to beat.

And the counters/check for it are Bulky Waters and Ground type? Zone and Tran could join in on the fun, though they have to watch they're step.

 

[Cartoons!]

What happened to the Bonemerang discussion? No one gets a free lunch and 90% accuracy is a small price to pay for the coverage afforded by a base 100 Ground move. Earthquake is just too generous when you consider CAPmon would require no EVs to 1hko Heatran with SR up.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Here's a crazy idea.......how bout we just strip it of all offensive moves and force it to spam WoW and Toxic like Umbreon. Everyone having soo much problems with a few moves and everyone want this Pokemon to not sweep. Killing multiple birds with one stone seems like a good idea right now.

I'm soo joking here but I will so laugh if Doug or Mag actually like the idea

 

[Solstice]

How about the move Super Fang? It can definitely scare off some bulk if they switch in on it, but its impossible to actually kill anything with it.

 

[Naxte]

What happened to the Bonemerang discussion? No one gets a free lunch and 90% accuracy is a small price to pay for the coverage afforded by a base 100 Ground move. Earthquake is just too generous when you consider CAPmon would require no EVs to 1hko Heatran with SR up.

I don't exactly mind it getting Bonemerang, but I'm not sure I get the difference since, as you said, they have the exact same power (and even the same amount of PP). If anything, Bonemerang is even more powerful than Earthquake, due to it actually being able to break any Substitutes that Pokemon like Heatran or Magnezone have up on the first hit, and then hit them with a 200 power move on the second.

 

[Solstice]

Im against Bonemerang. It may not be as powerful as Earthquake, but it still has full capabilities to destroy his counter better than EQ could anyways. Its pretty much Earthquake that breaks subs, and the 10% accuracy drop isnrt enough to compensate for that.

 

[Cartoons!]

I don't exactly mind it getting Bonemerang, but I'm not sure I get the difference since, as you said, they have the exact same power (and even the same amount of PP). If anything, Bonemerang is even more powerful than Earthquake, due to it actually being able to break any Substitutes that Pokemon like Heatran or Magnezone have up on the first hit, and then hit them with a 200 power move on the second.

I would actually have liked to have suggested Bone Club or Bone Rush as its Ground move as it would force a commitment upon the player to dedicate full on EVs to its attack stat. The cornerstone of good game design, I think, is choice; so I'm always for anything that'll get the player to make a decision (in this case between a decent solution to opposing Steels/Fires or having a more defensive build).

 

[Legacy Raider]

I'd like to throw in my support for Iron Head and Iron Tail for STAB options. Meteor Mash I'm inclined against - really, do we need to give it a 100 base power attack? Like it's been said before, CAP7's primary purpose isn't to sweep, it's to scout. What does Meteor Mash really do that Iron Head doesn't? Arguably, Iron Head might even be more useful on this pokemon, as with its high speed it can abuse the flinch rate, and it isn't the bulkiest of things, so reliable accuracy helps. I really just don't see the need for it to have Meteor Mash, as Iron Head works more than fine, and Meteor Mash doesn't really add anything apart from a temptation to try and sweep with it.

I'm all for Bullet Punch and Shadow Sneak to allow CAP7 to take out faster sashers such as Azelf and Aerodactyl. It's great you know they've got a sash - priority will let you do something about it. Also, I'm not even sure it's worth mentioning, but as it hasn't been brought up yet (I think), Flash Cannon for completeness.

I'd like to keep CAP7's STAB options to either a low power or with some sort of major drawback. Luckily, all the physical Ghost moves fit into this quite well. I'm in support of Shadow Punch, Shadow Claw, and Shadow Force. Shadow Force might seem a bit over the top with its base 120 power, but I think the drawback of the 'charge' turn, and the fact that Normal-types are immune to it, are limitations enough for its consideration.

Personally, I think Superpower would be a good move for consideration as well. The Attack and Defense drops mean that CAP7 will not be able to sweep with it, despite Fighting's offensive synergy with Ghost. Fighting-type attacks are also a good type to scout with, as they hit opposing Steel and Water types for neutral damage, meaning CAP7 can at least do something to its common switchins. I would rather this than Cross Chop, as apart from the accuracy, it has no drawbacks like Superpower does.

 

[darkie]

I'd like to throw in my support for Iron Head and Iron Tail for STAB options. Meteor Mash I'm inclined against - really, do we need to give it a 100 base power attack? Like it's been said before, CAP7's primary purpose isn't to sweep, it's to scout. What does Meteor Mash really do that Iron Head doesn't? Arguable, Iron Head might even be more useful on a scout, as with its high speed it can abuse the flinch rate, and it isn't the bulkiest of things, so reliable accuracy helps. I really just don't see the need for it to have Meteor Mash, as Iron Head works more than fine, and Meteor Mash doesn't really add anything apart from a temptation to try and sweep with it.

How are you scouting your opponent's movesets when they are flinched and you end up not seeing what moves they have?

 

[Deck Knight]

How are you scouting your opponent's movesets when they are flinched and you end up not seeing what moves they have?

Because a free flinch can at least tell you whether they're using Lefties or not. There's also no point in scouting if you do enough damage to KO on the next Iron Head, just KO the damn thing.

Robbing this of a legit accurate STAB on the basis that 30% of the time you might get another attack in is absurd.

 

[darkie]

I don't mind Iron Head; I just don't see the problem with allowing Meteor Mash.

 

[tennisace]

I have to agree with Deck on this one, you can at least scout for the existence of the Pokemon that comes in on it, flinch or no flinch. If they stay in to take the flinch when they normally wouldn't, you know something is odd about the moveset (Like Mixed Latios with EQ for example).

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Earthquake if you wanted to be able to have this poke deal with steels you should have voted ground. accept your decisions already.

So your reasoning behind no Earthquake is because we should allow this thing to be walled by almost every Steel type out there, reducing it's scouting potent to nothing? I thought it was all about Magnzone and Heatran because they're more important than the 10+ counters/checks it has. I don't know about you but don't most Steel type Pokemon learn EQ and don't have stab on it. Naxte already explained what I wanted to say about Earthquake, but I'll repost the comment anyway.

If it's not broken, then what's the problem with it having it? And it barely being able to 2HKO Steels like Metagross with EQ is better than it barely getting a 3HKO with Fire Punch. If it's not broken, and it helps it out without giving it very few counters (which it won't; bulky waters and grounds will still do a great job of walling this thing), then I see no reason to exclude it.

-------------------

Anyway, I think Earthquake is too overpowering. They will all allow this to sweep through teams easily. Earthquake gives this great coverage, which I don't think it should have.

But didn't we agreed that it should get a large movepool to compersate for the low rating? So we're going back on that deal and being stingy with it's movepool as well as rating? Well if we're going to down that route, I have a suggestion to me. Remove every single offensive move off CAP7's movepool. Force it to rely on status moves and/or support moves. We all want a scout and not a sweeper and this will solve that problem instantly.

.....Okay on a serious now, how is EQ's coverage that overpowering on CAP7? We already proved it still have plenty of counters/check to deal with it even with EQ, that EQ isn't overpowering when actually hitting things, and just about everything else. What can it do that you're soo afraid of?

 

[KnightoftheWind]

The best moves for this Pokemon are U-turn, Shadow Sneak, Bullet Punch, Fake Out and Knock Off. U-turn is a staple of true scout Pokemon, getting away from the opponent and checking for switches. Fake Out works similarly, getting a free flinch if they stay in. Priority moves are nice to have, while Knock Off can get rid of items you can discover with Frisk.

This Pokemon seems like a good user of Trick. Frisk benefits it, finding out what item the opponent has and Tricking accrodingly. I already found a good move set!
-Trick
-U-turn
-Knock Off
-Bullet Punch

 

[Mrobinson587]

Meteor Mash should be allowed as a solid STAB option. Not allowing it because of the 20% chance for an attack boost is silly. It's not going to be sweeping even with a Life orb and 1 attack boost. Steel is not to threating of an attack type.

I am solidly against Earthquake if Heatran and Magnezone are supposed to be counters. They shouldn't have to resort to being scarfed to threaten it.

Bone Rush and Dig are ground moves that are mediocre options that I would be okay giving. I'm fine with the scout being walled by steels to be honest. Knowing that their opponent might U-turn to a Dugtrio would make them think twice before switching in a Steel.

Explosion is a no. I would encourage people to go look at the Speed of the Pokemon that get it. Now on anything that is fast look at their base Attack power. Azelf and Mew are the only outliers that are fast on their own and have a good base attack.

Explosion on something this fast is too good. It doesn't really help it with it's duty of scout and it really makes it lean towards more of a suicide lead (even if it doesn't get Stealh Rock or Spikes)

Volt Tackle, Power Whip, Seed Bomb,Stone Edge even the already allowed Aqua Tail... come on. Are people just throwing out moves they think would be cool? Why would it get these moves? What precedent does it have? Since when does steel grow vines and have seeds? Stone Edge and Aqua tail have very little precedence with Ghost or Steel typing. I know this is Create A Pokemon, but these options seem too much off

Body Slam, and Brick Break are moves that I feel are ok. Body Slam is annoying with it's paralyzation and would help with scouting. You may not want to send in your Agilgross or a speedy sweeper on a CAP7 spamming Body slam. Brick Break is about as powerful a fighting move it should get IMO.

Cross Chop is therefore a no along with Superpower.

Even though they are of little significance with something with base 55 special attack, many ghosts get both Thunder and Thunderbolt

Gengars movepool (explosion aside) is a good outline for what we should be choosing for moves IMO. Many of the Steel options that we have looked at have already been mentioned.

Also Magmortified I've rearranged the allowed list in a order that I think most people will agree makes more sense and makes it easier to read. Feel free to use it.

-Fake Out
-U-Turn
-Shadow Sneak
-Bullet Punch
-Iron Tail
-Iron Head
-Shadow Claw
-Shadow Punch
-Thunder Punch
-Ice Punch
-Fire Punch
-Thunder Fang
-Ice Fang
-Fire Fang
-Aqua Tail
-Rock Slide
-Drain Punch
-Thief
-Knock Off

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I am solidly against Earthquake if Heatran and Magnezone are supposed to be counters. They shouldn't have to resort to being scarfed to threaten it.

What about all those Bulky Water and Ground type that can handle him just as fine regardless of Earthquake? Do they mean nothing in the general sense? We shouldn't baby two individual Pokemon and destroy some potent from CAP7's life. Earthquake has be proven time after time that it's not overpowering on CAP7, why isn't that hard to just accept the move? Beside Heatran and Magnzone have to be scarfed in order to threaten as they're too slow without them so really it's a moot point.

BTW, Dig isn't a very good option for anything weak to Ground. You either get EQ to death as they stay in, or send in something like Salamence and set-up on you. Either case, you didn't do a good scouting job.

CAP7 Check list for those that don't know it.

Hippowdon (UnSTAB Ice Punch? lol)
Gliscor (Rock Polish + Roost easily defeats even Ice Punch variants)
Rhyperior (Iron Head? Pray for flinch hax.)
Skarmory
Bronzong
Jirachi
Metagross
Steelix
Arghonaut (physical attacks? What be these? Yar.)
Swampert
Milotic
Walrein
Celebi
Tangrowth
Blissey
Snorlax
Spiritomb
Zapdos
Pyroak
Starmie
Syclant
Azelf
Latias
Salamence
Metagross
Gyarados
Dugtrio