np: Latios - "unban me"

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So in ways, we're both right. Because of that I don't see why I should be called out / attacked for "poor research" if you're telling me I needed to "read between the lines" to pick it up (and that "my" stated reasoning was indeed part of it, it says right there). I don't see how the attack on my knowledge of the UU test is justified by that log.
 
So in ways, we're both right. Because of that I don't see why I should be called out / attacked for "poor research" if you're telling me I needed to "read between the lines" to pick it up (and that "my" stated reasoning was indeed part of it, it says right there). I don't see how the attack on my knowledge of the UU test is justified by that log.
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Yes, your stated reasoning "was a part of it". However, it doesn't apply to the case of OU. Why?

There is a reason the test made sense for UU but doesn't really make sense for OU. There is a reason that nearly everyone agreed to a UU test but not OU. What I'm attacking is your comparison on what we did on UU and what we did on OU and how "this is how it should be done".

I have already explained to you why this reasoning is false. Instead of trying to read it line by line and saying "I'm not saying this! What does it have to do with anything" I recommend reading the reasoning behind why we're doing this with OU and not UU.

We're not "both right" no matter how we put it considering I was using it to attack the justification you are giving. In the end, "It doesn't really matter" since no matter what you do there's going to be subjectivity despite which method we choose. You're not giving us any convincing reason why "unbanning everything" is going to lead to a much better experience other than your "this is how it should be done" blah blah blah. You're missing the key justification, and without that justification there really isn't a reason to simply just "unban everything to begin with". Yes, the current suspect test is awfully conservative, and it requires the baselines to gauge upon. The nUU test requires no such baseline because what we did was literally just make another tier and call it UU.

In the end realize that there is no "right way to tier". In a good majority of cases we're going to end up with a playable tier (unless you come up with something ridiculous) and what matters is to balance the tier what we have and "Minimize" the bans we have to start with to match the playing style of the tier we have right now, because this is the playing style that people are used to. Simple as that.
 
When I first started I found that too many people seem to be building teams around countering Latios and not using him at all, thus making 'testing' pointless.

Though, now it is a better and Latios is starting to show his face, but I haven't faced a CS Latios, but the usual Dragon Pulse/Surf/Recover/Calm Mind which isn't that huge of a threat. Heracross is a huge thorn in his side, makes a good revenge killer (It could be risky to switch him into an attack and then get outsped and hit again).

What are people packing on CS Latios? Meteor/Pulse/Surf/HP Fire? Grass Knot? Psychic?
 
Wishy said:
When I first started I found that too many people seem to be building teams around countering Latios and not using him at all, thus making 'testing' pointless.

Though, now it is a better and Latios is starting to show his face, but I haven't faced a CS Latios, but the usual Dragon Pulse/Surf/Recover/Calm Mind which isn't that huge of a threat. Heracross is a huge thorn in his side, makes a good revenge killer (It could be risky to switch him into an attack and then get outsped and hit again).

What are people packing on CS Latios? Meteor/Pulse/Surf/HP Fire? Grass Knot? Psychic?
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I've seen most people run.

Draco Meteor
Surf
Thunderbolt
Trick

The moves cover a lot of Pokemon already and Trick for Blissey and such.
 
Tangerine said:
Yes, your stated reasoning "was a part of it". However, it doesn't apply to the case of OU. Why?
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The important line isn't that BL being big was a large justification, but rather:

[20:41] <Obi> But even if the list were 5 BLs
[20:41] <Obi> I would prefer unbanning all of them to testing one at a time

There is a reason the test made sense for UU but doesn't really make sense for OU. There is a reason that nearly everyone agreed to a UU test but not OU. What I'm attacking is your comparison on what we did on UU and what we did on OU and how "this is how it should be done".
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Before English DP was even released, I was arguing that we should test all Pokemon in standard and only ban that which proves itself to be broken.

The BL / UU test occurred after the Uber / OU test (the test everything at once test), and in that time, people's attitudes have changed. There has been an observable shift away from "theorymon" arguments. However, I think the primary reason people accepted a UU test is because there were fewer UU players than OU players, not because BL is big.

My reasoning for supporting such a test is none of those, but rather, "It's never too late to get it right.", which is the opposite of what some people say. A lot of the opposition to the Uber / OU test was originally "Wait for it to settle and then we can talk about testing stuff!" which I thought was absurd, but I was shot down. Later the opposition was "If you wanted to test this, you should have said so earlier. It's too late now.".
 
Mr.Darkrai said:
I've seen most people run.

Draco Meteor
Surf
Thunderbolt
Trick

The moves cover a lot of Pokemon already and Trick for Blissey and such.
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Interesting. I've seen a few mixed versions also, with Dragon Dance/Earthquake/Draco Meteor but I've never seen the 4th move.
 
Wishy said:
Interesting. I've seen a few mixed versions also, with Dragon Dance/Earthquake/Draco Meteor but I've never seen the 4th move.
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The 4th move is outrage usually, it's the only chance latios has to beat blissey 1 vs. 1. Sometimes I've seen hp fire too, but it's still stopped by blissey then.

About the voting requirements: do we need to meet both the known and the secret requirements, or it's enough to meet the known requirement or the secret one?
 
Something that I tried using as a 'Latios counter' was a Macho Brace Bronzong:

Bronzong @ Macho Brace
Sassy - Levitate
252 HP / 164 Atk / 92 SpD

- Gyro Ball
- Trick
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion

This set's pretty cool as not only is it very reliable against almost all Latios, it sets up SR as well and has quite a strong Explosion. And while it's holding the Macho Brace, its Gyro Ball hurts tons too. With the Macho Brace attached, Bronzong will hit anything with 192 speed or greater with a 150 power attack (before STAB). Here are some calcs with Bronzong:

Timid Specs Latios Surf vs Bronzong: 34.0 - 40.2%
Timid Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs Bronzong: 37.3 - 44.1%
Timid LO Latios HP Fire vs Bronzong: 43.2 - 51.5%

Modest Specs Latios Surf vs Bronzong: 37.3 - 44.1%
Modest Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs Bronzong: 41.1 - 48.5%

+1 LO Adamant Latios Outrage vs Bronzong: 42.6 - 49.9%

Bronzong Gyro Ball vs Latios / Flygon: 69.7 - 82.1%
Bronzong Gyro Ball vs Salamence: 63.4 - 74.6%

Bronzong Explosion vs Lucario: 92.2 - 108.5%

For the period of time that I used it, I found it to be really reliable, and the Macho Brace it Tricked onto foes was really helpful for my own sweepers too. Even if Latios decides to use Trick and give you a Choice item, in return it will have its speed halved, and once you've taken care of it you can always use Bronzong to Trick the Specs back onto an opposing pokemon. Make of it what you will =).
 
I usually seem to kill Latios by paralyzing it and then hitting it with something SE. It'll take out one of my Pokemon (my T-Waver) but I've never gotten Latios swept (at least I don't remember getting Latios swept). It might have opened up a gap for something else (like taking down my Cressy so Mixape can sweep me), but that doesn't make a Pokemon uber.
 
Eifie said:
I usually seem to kill Latios by paralyzing it and then hitting it with something SE. It'll take out one of my Pokemon (my T-Waver) but I've never gotten Latios swept (at least I don't remember getting Latios swept). It might have opened up a gap for something else (like taking down my Cressy so Mixape can sweep me), but that doesn't make a Pokemon uber.
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If you have never been swept by Latios, then you have gotten lucky or have the prediction skills to switch into a counter. As to what you said earlier about 'opening a gap for your Mixape', this is particularly why Latios is so awesome. It has the defenses, movepool, and raw power to be a lot of things. I like to run a Physical Latios that takes out all the SpDef walls to let my Alakazam come in and rape. This can make a pokemon Uber because 'if you can create a situation where it is easier for the rest of your team to sweep', it fits the Uber Support class.

You may also have a team that is, by happenstance, a Latios sweeper counter (your pokemon can switch in and kill Latios). That is the same with my team as well. But it is important to keep in mind that Latios isn't just made to sweep. My personal favorite Latios set is the Support Latios. I don't have the exact Nature or EVs, but its movepool is pretty awesome. Memento/Light Screen/T-Wave/(filler, probably D-Pulse). This Latios can Light Screen on any crazy Special Sweepers, then T-wave them or who ever they switch to, then Memento on them to lower their attacks harshly. Honestly, if you think Latios is only meant to sweep, then you aren't that great of a battler.

Another thing, Latios will probably destroy anything (if it was a sweeper after all) that has low/average SpDef when they T-wave. I think you either got lucky or T-waved with something high in SpDef. It's not a bad idea, really.

Getting back to the actual test, I have come to a very sketchy conclusion. I understand that there is still a week left of test, but I don't think anything is going to change. Latios is going OU guys. To start, it has way too many checks. Scizor, Metagross, Tyranitar, Blissey, etc. can switch in on ANY of it's sets and take it out. Second, Specstios, LO Latios, Physical Latios, Mixtios, and Support Memento are not particularly strong sets. While Latios packs passable attack and extreme special attack, Latios gets unlucky because of the high-centralization of its counters. Meaning, nearly every team has a set Latios counter, even if they don't know it. Lastly, Latios is frail. It gets unlucky again with its Dragon/Psychic combination. The stronger pokemon pack Dark, Dragon, Ice, Ghost, and Bug moves to OHKO/2HKO Latios with ease.

Anybody who is in the position that Latios is Uber is basing their opinions on two things. One, that Latios falls under the Uber Support Class. Meaning Latios's Support Memento set cripples sweepers and forces switches, causing the rest of the team to sweep easier. The second thing is that Latios usually takes down two or three pokemon and hurting others bfore going down. I'm especially referring to the LO Mixtios which hits just about every pokemon in the Standard Metagame very hard. If I'm wrong please tell me, but unless I haven't been paying attention in my Suspect battles I think I'm right.
 
Okay, so after finally meeting the requirements and making it to the top 30 on the Ladder, I feel I have quite a bit of experience on Suspect Ladder. Lately, I've seen a massive rise in the usage of the move 'Protect'. This really hampers Choice users (of which I have four..). As with the right team support things like Choice Band Scizor, Choice Specs Latios, and Choice Scarf Magnezone have no chance of making an impact.

I may have to build a new team if I want to get anywhere now, as I've lost about seven games in a row and dropped to 39th on the Leaderboard with a now dreadful average rating, due to playing the same two people over and over as there's again, nobody on Suspect. When I /wall 'Use the Suspect Ladder', I'm met with replies such as 'no', lol.

I just find it frustrating now that I'm basically giving certain players free victories as I really can't have any hope of outpredicting them with the abundance of Protect on their team, and I'm still lacking ideas on what else to try out (as it's going to be very difficult to find games on my alt so I can test another team so my rating doesn't drop even further). I don't want to resort to building teams that are designed to beat the players who I keep facing at this moment in time because that's just unfair.

I've got a few days left though, so I'll obviously give it a try. I just hope all this effort of actually playing as many battles as I can doesn't result in me not even getting to have a say.

Swampert, Vaporeon, and Blissey are the main Protect users and when your opponent has the likes of Tyranitar, Gliscor, Scizor, Jirachi, Bronzong, Metagross etc that makes it very hard to be able to rely on Choice, or in turn, prediction. Since after Protect against a Choiced Pokémon, they've usually got the perfect switch-in to deal with it.

Now, I forsee a rise in this strategy as a lot of the players using Protect on often 2-3 Pokémon are often rather high up on the leaderboard. However, if you can play it just about right, there's a chance you can stat-up on Protects. But again, you're not in the driving seat here as it's possible that status could be fired your way to prevent a sweep. Substitute also seems very viable, but if you can't take advantage and beat whatever they switch in to you, it's often just HP wasted and you're again, not in the driving seat if this happens.

We'll see if the game can develop anymore in the next few days and hopefully more people will play lol.
 
Havak said:
Okay, so after finally meeting the requirements and making it to the top 30 on the Ladder, I feel I have quite a bit of experience on Suspect Ladder. Lately, I've seen a massive rise in the usage of the move 'Protect'. This really hampers Choice users (of which I have four..). As with the right team support things like Choice Band Scizor, Choice Specs Latios, and Choice Scarf Magnezone have no chance of making an impact.

I may have to build a new team if I want to get anywhere now, as I've lost about seven games in a row and dropped to 39th on the Leaderboard with a now dreadful average rating, due to playing the same two people over and over as there's again, nobody on Suspect. When I /wall 'Use the Suspect Ladder', I'm met with replies such as 'no', lol.

I just find it frustrating now that I'm basically giving certain players free victories as I really can't have any hope of outpredicting them with the abundance of Protect on their team, and I'm still lacking ideas on what else to try out (as it's going to be very difficult to find games on my alt so I can test another team so my rating doesn't drop even further). I don't want to resort to building teams that are designed to beat the players who I keep facing at this moment in time because that's just unfair.

I've got a few days left though, so I'll obviously give it a try. I just hope all this effort of actually playing as many battles as I can doesn't result in me not even getting to have a say.

Swampert, Vaporeon, and Blissey are the main Protect users and when your opponent has the likes of Tyranitar, Gliscor, Scizor, Jirachi, Bronzong, Metagross etc that makes it very hard to be able to rely on Choice, or in turn, prediction. Since after Protect against a Choiced Pokémon, they've usually got the perfect switch-in to deal with it.

Now, I forsee a rise in this strategy as a lot of the players using Protect on often 2-3 Pokémon are often rather high up on the leaderboard. However, if you can play it just about right, there's a chance you can stat-up on Protects. But again, you're not in the driving seat here as it's possible that status could be fired your way to prevent a sweep. Substitute also seems very viable, but if you can't take advantage and beat whatever they switch in to you, it's often just HP wasted and you're again, not in the driving seat if this happens.

We'll see if the game can develop anymore in the next few days and hopefully more people will play lol.
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I'll be honest, when I play I usually face a lot of different people and it usually only takes 1-3 minutes to get a match, and I think some people overexagerate it(not just you, but a lot of others). Maybe it's just the times these people are playing, but maybe not. I've played at all different times and the only time where I couldn't get a mtach quickly at all was during the tour. As for the move Protect, I have seen a lot of it, but I actually have used it to my advantage against Blissey numerous times. I use Life Orb Scizor with Pursuit, and when my opponent hasn't seen me take life orb damage, I'll switch my Scizor into Blissey while they wish. it's obvious they're going to scout with protect next turn. When they see me use pursuit, every time they assume I'm choiced so I follow up with a Superpower to ko Blissey.

I'm also interested in knowing the answer to the question that Haunterfan asked. Do we have to meet both the unpublished requirement and the published one, or is it an either/or kind of thing?
 
I've only played 15 or so matches (yeah im working on playing more) and it's always taken me 3 minutes to find a match, after asking in the main chat for each appearance.
 
Perhaps just do some dry switching Havak. Fire off that CB Meteor Mash against Blissey, then switch to your Skarmory or bulky water counter as they switch to their switch in, and take advantage.

As nice as Protect is for your own prediction, it also gives the opposing player their own ability to counter-predict, and as you said, stat up. It is not a perfect move by any means, or even close to one.
 
Yeh, I'm pretty sure me being GMT has something to do with my lack of getting matches. So I keep trying to vary the times I ladder, but I still seem to get a lack of games lol. It's so frustrating.
 
Just faced a Memento team that had a trick lead Jynx, he was able to pull off the strategy and that got me quite worried, after he switched into Gliscor powered up Gliscor's attack and speed, Baton Passed to Gyarados, shortly after I was able cripple his entire strategy with Thunder Wave I won shortly after that, wasn't as hard as I thought. :D
 
Ugh, the only thing that really bothers me is the Latios vs. Latios face off's, and sometimes having to bet whether my Latios will win the speed tie, or whether the other Latios isn't running max speed. That, I find, is quite annoying.
 
Yeah, I think it's safe to say that Latios v. Latios usually results in a switch =/. I try to get in my Metagross ASAP if a Latios switches in when I switch mine in. I think the worst part is Latios v. Scizor, though. Since Scizor tools around Latios like a baby. Most people go for the switch, in which case Pursuit is a OHKO, and if you try to fight it off then Bullet Punch 2HKOs and U-turn does massive damage as well (maybe OHKO, not sure).
 
just something random I've noticed: apparently a number of people aren't really afraid of infernape anymore and are willing to eat at least like 40% switching latios into it, even despite the possibility of U-turn. my team doesn't really care that much if I happen to suicide a couple things so I just kind of laugh when that happens, as it means that latios generally gets to kill my most useless team member and then dies soon afterwards, or at least against the players I've faced. Latios has just not been a threat to my team, and virtually anything it's managed to kill has been completely "on my terms," or so I've found anyway. not that I've played a ton, so just some observations I guess.
 
From my experience, Latios almost always forces someone to switch in a sacrifice before switching their real "counter" in. In that sense, it seems like Latios almost guarantees a kill, and is just easily revenged. If the only reliable way of dealing with Latios involves revenging it, I think that is evidence alone that it's broken. I feel like most people find that because they aren't getting 6-poke swept by Latios on their centralized teams, Latios isn't broken. I, personally, am sickened by all the cookie cut anti-Latios teams. It really limits the number of viable pokemon in the OU metagame, and such centralization is not desireable.
 
I agree with what you're saying, and it probably does make Latios uber, but the unfortunate reality is we're pretty much limited to voting based on the offensive, defensive, and support characteristics. Since people do overprepare for it and thus it does get revenge killed so easily, it can't exactly fit under the offensive characteristic because it's usually not "capable of sweeping through a significant portion of your opponent's team with little to no risk to itself."

In order to have your vote accepted, then, you're going to have to argue for it to be banned under the support characteristic, unless I understand the definition of uber wrong. Or else just vote it OU, because the definition of uber forces you to. It seems to me that the blatant overcentralization of the suspect ladder around countering Latios causes it not to fall under any of the three characteristics of being uber, when that complete overcentralization itself should be looked at as a step in the direction of being uber. I have no doubts that Latios is too powerful for OU (the only thing that can switch in and survive a second hit to kill it without a sacrifice is an extremely Special Defense-oriented Metagross/Bronzong or Blissey), but the characteristics that we're currently using seem to be written in a way that it just "doesn't fit."
 
My team ltself was built without keeping Latios in mind yet I fall under the group of people that have not been swept by Latios, though my experience has been different to others and everyone has a right to an opinion, I would still vote OU regardless as I have been able to beat Latios with my uncentralised team and I have yet to face a Latios that 6-0 me.

This might sound right to some as I am on my psp but I hope I got my point across.
 
Syberia said:
I agree with what you're saying, and it probably does make Latios uber, but the unfortunate reality is we're pretty much limited to voting based on the offensive, defensive, and support characteristics. Since people do overprepare for it and thus it does get revenge killed so easily, it can't exactly fit under the offensive characteristic because it's usually not "capable of sweeping through a significant portion of your opponent's team with little to no risk to itself."

In order to have your vote accepted, then, you're going to have to argue for it to be banned under the support characteristic, unless I understand the definition of uber wrong. Or else just vote it OU, because the definition of uber forces you to. It seems to me that the blatant overcentralization of the suspect ladder around countering Latios causes it not to fall under any of the three characteristics of being uber, when that complete overcentralization itself should be looked at as a step in the direction of being uber. I have no doubts that Latios is too powerful for OU (the only thing that can switch in and survive a second hit to kill it without a sacrifice is an extremely Special Defense-oriented Metagross/Bronzong or Blissey), but the characteristics that we're currently using seem to be written in a way that it just "doesn't fit."
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Yeah, I agree 100%. I feel like the criteria for "uber" almost has a stench of bias in it itself. I'm not trying to discredit any of the people who created the system, I just feel that the criteria for uber or OU should not be so black and white like it currently is, especially considering the environment in which the pokemon is being tested. There should be a criteria around centralization, or something to that extent as well. Most ubers would not be able to flourish in an OU environment in which all teams are built to specifically handle said uber. Does that mean that they should be moved down to OU? Definitely not.
 
I would also like to note that I experimented with a Trapper team with Dugtrio and Magnezone, which allowed my Latios to sweep quite often, showing that it is in fact very destructive in an environment not suited to taking it down. My basic strategy was to send out Latios, then first turn go to Dugtrio. Most switch ins to Latios are beaten by Dugtrio, except for Scizor, who would almost always Bullet Punch my switch to Magnezone, who OHKO'd.

I'm giving this strategy away to show how powerful Latios can be on the right team.
 
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