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np: Latios - "unban me"
- Thread starter Jumpman16
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Latios simply can't, a swords danced extremespeed is an ohko with stealth rock on the field. And, of course, Latios can not switch into Salamence unless you're sure that it's going to fire blast\earthquale.
@Amre92: the set seems interesting, only a few notes:
-doesn't kingdra use rain dance better? stab on hydro pump\surf and swift swim.
-using a modest nature means that you're a lot easier to revenge kill by other latios, +speed salamence, gengar and so on.
-if you specifically need to counter the steels you mentioned, maybe a specs\calm mind hp fire would be a better idea.
Just my thought, if you test that set post the results please.
Have a nice day.
@Panamaxis: Specs Hidden Power Fire KOs Standard Lucario, but if it uses SD, you're doomed :S
Cool idea for Latios, however, keep in mind it is still stopped cold by Tyranitar, who eliminates the rain, allowing it to survive two LO Surfs with no problem, and kill with Pursuit.
Also, Latios should never be switching into Lucario, unless out of a U-Turn situation. The risk of getting hit with Crunch or them SDing on your switch is too high.
Also, Latios should never be switching into Lucario, unless out of a U-Turn situation. The risk of getting hit with Crunch or them SDing on your switch is too high.
Max sp. att Latios with Life Orb deals a minimum of 49% to Neutral 252/0 Tyranitar with Surf when Sandstorm is active. Latios can then easily finish it with Draco Meteor.
K, well most of the top players running TTar on suspect have heavy Special Defense investment, on top of Max HP. If they're not, then they won't be switching TTar into Latios anyways.
Even going by the criteria listed by Jumpman, I'm not sure if there is anyway to really gauge whether or not Latios should be uber or not. My problem is that in a testing environment it's impossible to tell what the effect of Latios is on the metagame since the suspect ladder is entirely focusing on him. Now I understand that is what Stage 2 and 3 are for, but I think that Latios has shown itself to be borderline enough in Suspect (IE not completely dominating to the point where your entire team has to be built to stop him) that really there is no point in further suspect testing.
@DGD Actually you're playing Stage 2 right now. Jump wants us to independenty gain experience with the Pokémon and then gauge if it's too powerful from that. Personally I agree with your sentiments that a Pokémon is only as powerful as the metagame around it (and that these tests seem kind of trivial), but the theory behind it makes sense.
lol, I just watched a match on Suspect where somebody did not have a Pursuit user, and Specs Latios just ripped through his whole team. I'm not too keen on requiring a Pursuit user, or else risk getting Specstios man handled.
^It must of been a fairly badly constructed team. How many steels did he run? Did he predict good? Was there a Scizor/Metagross/Tyranitar?
Not that I'm saying you need Steels to win, but they are extremly helpful in Platinum.
I personally don't have a problem with Latios, but my team is Standard with Metagross and Scizor.
Not that I'm saying you need Steels to win, but they are extremly helpful in Platinum.
I personally don't have a problem with Latios, but my team is Standard with Metagross and Scizor.
I'm assuming that was my game you're referring to, Philip, with my Latios doing the vast majority of the work, I think it scored at least 5 KOs with Draco Meteor.
It wasn't a poorly constructed team to be honest, it was a Hail team though. Metagross was present, but without Pursuit he couldn't threaten me too much, and between Salamence / Scizor I always had a switch in to Earthquake and Meteor Mash.
It wasn't a poorly constructed team to be honest, it was a Hail team though. Metagross was present, but without Pursuit he couldn't threaten me too much, and between Salamence / Scizor I always had a switch in to Earthquake and Meteor Mash.
I had some success in suspect using my UU hail team (since it is the object of such contempt in UU), using clefable to sponge latios' attacks. Granted I probably didn't come up against smogon's top players, but the fact that Latios didn't romp through my UU team should mean something about whether it's uberness, or the lack thereof.
Yeah Havak, I was referring to your match.
And to Nubchos, yes the defender had Metagross. But even with Metagross, Scizor, and Tyranitar, if none of them are packing Pursuit, what are you gonna do? Constantly switch in for STAB 140 Base Power Specs attack time and time again? Latios does not take Spikes damage, so that means every time it comes in to revenge something, it only loses 12.5% of it's health. Then comes a massive powered attack, and without Pursuit, it can just switch out afterwards easily. I would say almost 90% of teams on the suspect ladder are packing a Pursuiter of sorts, JUST for Latios. That is really limitting the amount of diversity allowed, considering the only viable Pursuit users are Scizor, Tyranitar, and Metagross (for the most part). And without Pursuit (or Blissey, who again, does NOT like to be Tricked), your team is completely dominated by Specs Latios. I really hate that people "aren't having a problem" dealing with Latios becaues all they do is prepare for it and whomp on it. Again, I understand that it's the nature of a suspect test, but some people need to take an objective look at the matter, instead of tooting their own horn for how good they must be for not having trouble with Latios.
Oh well, I have upper voting requirements right now, and I am leaning heavily towards voting Uber. From my experience, Latios is a threat to the OU metagame.
And to Nubchos, yes the defender had Metagross. But even with Metagross, Scizor, and Tyranitar, if none of them are packing Pursuit, what are you gonna do? Constantly switch in for STAB 140 Base Power Specs attack time and time again? Latios does not take Spikes damage, so that means every time it comes in to revenge something, it only loses 12.5% of it's health. Then comes a massive powered attack, and without Pursuit, it can just switch out afterwards easily. I would say almost 90% of teams on the suspect ladder are packing a Pursuiter of sorts, JUST for Latios. That is really limitting the amount of diversity allowed, considering the only viable Pursuit users are Scizor, Tyranitar, and Metagross (for the most part). And without Pursuit (or Blissey, who again, does NOT like to be Tricked), your team is completely dominated by Specs Latios. I really hate that people "aren't having a problem" dealing with Latios becaues all they do is prepare for it and whomp on it. Again, I understand that it's the nature of a suspect test, but some people need to take an objective look at the matter, instead of tooting their own horn for how good they must be for not having trouble with Latios.
Oh well, I have upper voting requirements right now, and I am leaning heavily towards voting Uber. From my experience, Latios is a threat to the OU metagame.
Well, I have no Pursuit user and my team isn't "dominated" by any means. I may have 3 steels, but that is the result of Latias and Salamence, not Latios, as I made my team before the Latios testing.
As you even said, Latios has to come in to revenge something. That implies something dying! What's the point of the possibly of kicking ass when you need something to die to switch in? When Latios actually has to switch into an attack, even a resist, it is going to hurt him far more than he will like, taking even 33% on average from Scarf Heatran's Fire Blast, an attack he should resist quite well. Combine that with SR; thats 45% damage; that hurts quite a bit.
As you even said, Latios has to come in to revenge something. That implies something dying! What's the point of the possibly of kicking ass when you need something to die to switch in? When Latios actually has to switch into an attack, even a resist, it is going to hurt him far more than he will like, taking even 33% on average from Scarf Heatran's Fire Blast, an attack he should resist quite well. Combine that with SR; thats 45% damage; that hurts quite a bit.
It has plenty of opportunities to come in through U-Turns and Ground Immunities. Also, it's plethora of resistances allows it to come in on clutch moments.
And please, quit using your team as some example. 3 non-Heatran steels is far from standard, and fairly absurd if you ask me. Your team is a prime example of centralization that the Lati's have brought to the metagame.
And please, quit using your team as some example. 3 non-Heatran steels is far from standard, and fairly absurd if you ask me. Your team is a prime example of centralization that the Lati's have brought to the metagame.
Oh my goodness, nobody ever uses Suspect Ladder anymore. I feel that if I won 7 matches in a row against somebody, I would immediately be in the top 20. It is also impossible to get a match anymore, considering that people are tired of playing against the same person over and over again...=/
I already told you, those resistances aren't that when he has to switch in more than a few times; my example already showed how Specs Latios takes 45% from switching into Scarf Heatran's Fire Blast with SR up; is that really an easy switch? The ground immunity is certainly something, but nevertheless, it is dangerous to switch Latios into physical attackers that could predict a Latios switch in, or threaten to change their attack (Latios doesn't 1hko everything)
What is wrong with 3 non Heatran steels? I don't use steels for the sake of steels, I use them because they are very good. I'll go through a quick overview of how I ended up with 3 steels; Jirachi, Metagross, and Scizor.
SD Scizor: This is fairly obvious; he is f***ing good. A very solid check to so many pokemon, sweeps well, and is just so useful with his awesome technician priority moves.
Metagross (lead): I don't count leads as part of my team, since I typically run suicide leads. Metagross is like a suicide lead, but more; I don't count him much when making my team. Packs Occa Berry too.
CM Jirachi: This wasn't even on my team before, but I tried it out after my team began to kill off Tyranitar and Heatran early on in the game, and he was just really good as a stall breaker and sweeper. My team just naturally set up for him; his spot belonged to SD Hera, DD Tar, and SD Infernape before him.
Combined with Gyarados, Latias, and Rotom-H, 3 steel is really not a problem.
I did not and do not use steels for the sake of resistances; that is a useful byproduct. I place them there for their role, because these three steels are no replacements to how good these three steels are. In reality, I only have 2 steels because I plan on blowing Metagross up most of the time, and when considering my lead, I do not care about his typing.
As for the centralization aspect; the only pokemon that could be considered centralized for the Lati twins is Scizor, and the Lati twins don't even need to exist for him to be used. Do you think I considered CM Jirachi, who hits both Lati twins NVE with Psychic and Thunderbolt as pokemon to counter the Lati twins?
To summarize on my team:
My choice of having three steels did not result from the Lati twins at all; the fact they are steel type are just useful coincidences. Rather, it was Metagross's role as an amazing lead, Jirachi's role as an amazing sweeper, and Scizor's role for being plain awesome that made me use them.
EDIT: And statistics beg to differ from what a "standard team" is. A team of Jirachi/Metagross/Scizor/Gyara/Rotom-H/Latias is perfectly standard based on statistics. Maybe its not standard in the typing involved, as 3 steels certainly is quite a lot. But in terms of OU, it is definitely standard. And as for the typing not being "standard" and being "absurd", that is only when you try to construct teams based on resistances and weaknesses; I make my teams based on plans and roles, and fix up the typing later, so nothing can really be absurd.
So basically you have 4 pokemon in immediate danger of Heatran or Infernape on your team (Metagross, Jirachi, Scizor, Rotom). Then you have one Pokemon who can "safely" switch into Heatran (who is SR weak), and one more who, as you've said, takes 45% on a resisted Fire Blast with Rocks.
Also, have you played anybody good with Specs Latios? Looking at your team, even with those Steels, Specs Latios can still dominate you. Using Surf over Draco Meteor just destroys your switch ins, and Gyarados will not be an initial switch in on Latios ever. It's basically a guaranteed kill on every revenge chance it gets.
I'll say it again: for the most part, I think most people posting about how they do not have Latios problems are not looking at the big picture.
Also, have you played anybody good with Specs Latios? Looking at your team, even with those Steels, Specs Latios can still dominate you. Using Surf over Draco Meteor just destroys your switch ins, and Gyarados will not be an initial switch in on Latios ever. It's basically a guaranteed kill on every revenge chance it gets.
I'll say it again: for the most part, I think most people posting about how they do not have Latios problems are not looking at the big picture.
Based on the fact that most people on Suspect do run Latios, and most of those Latios run Specs, and I have at least achieved the lower requirements for voting under limited play time, my answer to you is
"No, I do not have problems with Specs Latios."
I do not have issues with the pokemon you listed either.
"No, I do not have problems with Specs Latios."
I do not have issues with the pokemon you listed either.
gj chenman, you have a team that owns latios, but has major holes in many other aspects.
I think I'm going to sig this, and I also agree that your team handles latios well but is pretty weak to some other things, which were already mentioned.
GFGuru, give me whatever you are smoking because I could sure use some to go with this spanish outline. Do you even know the actual team? I listed the pokemon, but not the movesets. SD Nape is not going to be sweeping my team; hell, I even have Latios on it. How the hell does SD Nape sweep a team with Latios on it, who outspeeds and takes 34% max with a SD LO Mach Punch? Not to mention it is not going to get set up.
Stop trying to discuss a team you don't even know beyond the pokemon in it.
Stop trying to discuss a team you don't even know beyond the pokemon in it.
Anyone who knows me knows that I'm a huge fan of physically heavy teams, and this has pretty much been the gold standard of physical sweepers for me recently.
Tyranitar @ Babiri Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- Fire Punch / Earthquake
DDTar is one of the most monstrous threats in any metagame, and it especially oines with Latios around. After a DD (which it can get for free on most any special attacker), it dismantles most suspect teams outright. Earthquake or Fire Punch, it's your choice. Fire Punch will solidly destroy Bronzong, Scizor, and Forretress after a DD as well as hitting Skarmory without relying on shaky accuracy, while Earthquake is stronger against Metagross and Heatran.
The item is where the magic comes from. Most teams are really lacking in Tyranitar checks outside of Scizor and its powerful Tyranitar-crushing Bullet Punch. When Scizor comes in to triumphantly Bullet Punch its way to victory, it is instead caught by the Babiri Berry, which reduces the power of a super-effective Steel-type attack. CB Scizor's Bullet Punch is reduced to 43.99% - 51.91% damage, which is very manageable. Adamant Metagross' Meteor Mash now deals 49.56% - 58.94% without a boosting item, and still fails to OHKO even with Choice Band. Bronzong's Gyro Ball deals a mere 39.59% - 46.92%. Meanwhile, Tyranitar deals massive damage to Bronzong and Metagross, 2KOing both cleanly with Fire Punch. Heatran takes huge damage from Stone Edge, while being unable to do anything but explode on Tyranitar or hit it with a weak Earth Power. Outside of random scarfers, this thing rips up the metagame right now.
Tyranitar @ Babiri Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- Fire Punch / Earthquake
DDTar is one of the most monstrous threats in any metagame, and it especially oines with Latios around. After a DD (which it can get for free on most any special attacker), it dismantles most suspect teams outright. Earthquake or Fire Punch, it's your choice. Fire Punch will solidly destroy Bronzong, Scizor, and Forretress after a DD as well as hitting Skarmory without relying on shaky accuracy, while Earthquake is stronger against Metagross and Heatran.
The item is where the magic comes from. Most teams are really lacking in Tyranitar checks outside of Scizor and its powerful Tyranitar-crushing Bullet Punch. When Scizor comes in to triumphantly Bullet Punch its way to victory, it is instead caught by the Babiri Berry, which reduces the power of a super-effective Steel-type attack. CB Scizor's Bullet Punch is reduced to 43.99% - 51.91% damage, which is very manageable. Adamant Metagross' Meteor Mash now deals 49.56% - 58.94% without a boosting item, and still fails to OHKO even with Choice Band. Bronzong's Gyro Ball deals a mere 39.59% - 46.92%. Meanwhile, Tyranitar deals massive damage to Bronzong and Metagross, 2KOing both cleanly with Fire Punch. Heatran takes huge damage from Stone Edge, while being unable to do anything but explode on Tyranitar or hit it with a weak Earth Power. Outside of random scarfers, this thing rips up the metagame right now.
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