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np: Latios - "unban me"
- Thread starter Jumpman16
- Start date
- Status
After experiencing my first Suspect Testing period here on Smogon, I can say it has been quite a blast up until now. I've enjoyed testing with Latios and learning more about how it may impact our metagame.
As a reminder, let's hope that everyone who has not reached the minimum requirements gets busy as tomorrow's the last day!
As a reminder, let's hope that everyone who has not reached the minimum requirements gets busy as tomorrow's the last day!
My rating is only in the upper 1500s, last I checked (despite beating Infinity so many times ;). I'm not going to make the voting requirements, nor do I really want to push to get there.
So I want to say my more experienced thoughts on Latios and the metagame. First thing, I don't like the state of the metagame right now. It is way too centralized for my liking. Scizor overcentralized it, making just about every gimmick(fun) Pokemon nearly useless (I'm talking to you SubSalac Rampardos) and now Latios wants to do so even more.
It pretty much forces you to use more than one steel type, and/or a really fast Pokemon that can hit it with Pursuit (Heracross, Weavile, just adding to the growing Fire-weakness). Just today I was facing a Choice Specs Latios, and my only Steel-type, a leading Metagross, was killed by a Heatran. My only faster Pokemon was a Scarfed Latios of my own, and my opponent figured out I was scarfed when I revenge killed his Heatran. Anyway, I realized that he could just switch Latios in and out and eventually kill the rest of my team. My bulkiest Pokemon left, Tyranitar, was quickly OHKOed after taking U-turn damage from a Flygon. And I was soon taken out by one Pokemon, my opponent pretty much sacrificied all his other Pokes but Latios.
This just further shows Latios' power in this metagame. Do we really want teams made of 3 steels, 2 dragons, and a suicide lead? Because that's the only thing I've been seeing lately.
As far as the definition of an Uber goes, Latios can 2HKO a huge majority of the metagame. The problem comes with skill-less priority users, and the abuse those few Pokemon who survive the Draco onslaught.
Notice how 4/5 of Latios' most common teamates are Steels and Dragons. Just by looking at the statistics of the suspect ladder, we see that they dominate the metagame. Many people say that a simple Mamoswine deals with both of these types but that is simply not true. For you cannot OHKO Latios with Ice Shard, while it will always OHKO you. The use of Scarf on bulky steel types such as Jirachi and Magnezone has also risen, and let's not forget Heatran.
If I could vote, I'd vote Latios Uber.
So I want to say my more experienced thoughts on Latios and the metagame. First thing, I don't like the state of the metagame right now. It is way too centralized for my liking. Scizor overcentralized it, making just about every gimmick(fun) Pokemon nearly useless (I'm talking to you SubSalac Rampardos) and now Latios wants to do so even more.
It pretty much forces you to use more than one steel type, and/or a really fast Pokemon that can hit it with Pursuit (Heracross, Weavile, just adding to the growing Fire-weakness). Just today I was facing a Choice Specs Latios, and my only Steel-type, a leading Metagross, was killed by a Heatran. My only faster Pokemon was a Scarfed Latios of my own, and my opponent figured out I was scarfed when I revenge killed his Heatran. Anyway, I realized that he could just switch Latios in and out and eventually kill the rest of my team. My bulkiest Pokemon left, Tyranitar, was quickly OHKOed after taking U-turn damage from a Flygon. And I was soon taken out by one Pokemon, my opponent pretty much sacrificied all his other Pokes but Latios.
This just further shows Latios' power in this metagame. Do we really want teams made of 3 steels, 2 dragons, and a suicide lead? Because that's the only thing I've been seeing lately.
As far as the definition of an Uber goes, Latios can 2HKO a huge majority of the metagame. The problem comes with skill-less priority users, and the abuse those few Pokemon who survive the Draco onslaught.
Notice how 4/5 of Latios' most common teamates are Steels and Dragons. Just by looking at the statistics of the suspect ladder, we see that they dominate the metagame. Many people say that a simple Mamoswine deals with both of these types but that is simply not true. For you cannot OHKO Latios with Ice Shard, while it will always OHKO you. The use of Scarf on bulky steel types such as Jirachi and Magnezone has also risen, and let's not forget Heatran.
If I could vote, I'd vote Latios Uber.
I'm nowhere near the requirements, and I am busy as hell tomorrow, so I won't make the test. But overall, I agree with Metanite in that Latios is way too powerful for the OU metagame. Towards the end, I was packing a Blissey whose job was pretty much just to deal with Latios and nothing else, as that was really the only thing I could send in again without risk. The fact that I have had multiple battles which boil down to "Who can kill the other's Blissey first so Latios can sweep" makes thing even worse, and I do feel that Steels and Dragons have become too powerful. Consequently, if I could vote, I would not hesitate to put Latios in uber.
Ok currently Im maintaining a 1801/65 deviation. I dont think I can make it to upper tier with my schedule. So, I'll stick to closing the lower tier.
Go Latios! =o
Go Latios! =o
My suspect rating is around 1647 at the time of this writing, I had to bust my ass to get this high(I've never played suspect before) with the crapload of schoolwork I've had the past few weeks. Just need a few more battles...Dammit...
I've been somewhat on the fence about what to vote(if I get to vote). Blissey is really the only thing that can safely counter the Specs set, and even there Trick fucks it over. I've found a lot of people switch Tyranitar and Scizor immediately into Latios, only to be wrecked by Surf. I'm at the point that the first thing I ever do with Specs Latios is launch a Surf and well over half the time a Steel comes in only to be killed the next turn. Kind of dumb, really.
Pretty much all of Latios' common checks(Scizor, Tyranitar, Blissey and to a lesser extent Lucario and Mamoswine), are either frail or simply easy to kill off. Nothing stops Specs Latios from obliderating teams in the span of a few turns after that.
I haven't had as much experience with the other variations of Latios, as 90% of the community is running SpecsLatios and I haven't had the time to extensively test Calm Mind, Dragon Dance, and the other sets due to real life issues. What I have seen, however, is that a correctly played Calm Mind set is damnably unexpected and very deadly. I've experimented a bit with Dragon Pulse / Surf / Calm Mind / Substitute with Leftovers and its worked really well. Seismic Toss / Toxic Blissey laughs at it, but of course a smartly designed team will just lure and kill off Blissey before the Latios sweep.
If it was based solely on Choice Specs (and by no means does that blind me from the other sets) I'd have to go with Uber. Specs Draco Meteor will tear through some of the bulkiest things in the game, you pretty much need a Blissey or Empoleon. But with the advent of other sets that are just as deadly if more subtle when played correctly, I really have to vote Latios Uber.
I've found Suspect to be much less enjoyable than Standard. I see a lot more Bulky/Stall teams, and a lot of overcentralization (which is to be expected from Suspect, I suppose, but the consistency of Latios in particular is a bit excessive).
I've been somewhat on the fence about what to vote(if I get to vote). Blissey is really the only thing that can safely counter the Specs set, and even there Trick fucks it over. I've found a lot of people switch Tyranitar and Scizor immediately into Latios, only to be wrecked by Surf. I'm at the point that the first thing I ever do with Specs Latios is launch a Surf and well over half the time a Steel comes in only to be killed the next turn. Kind of dumb, really.
Pretty much all of Latios' common checks(Scizor, Tyranitar, Blissey and to a lesser extent Lucario and Mamoswine), are either frail or simply easy to kill off. Nothing stops Specs Latios from obliderating teams in the span of a few turns after that.
I haven't had as much experience with the other variations of Latios, as 90% of the community is running SpecsLatios and I haven't had the time to extensively test Calm Mind, Dragon Dance, and the other sets due to real life issues. What I have seen, however, is that a correctly played Calm Mind set is damnably unexpected and very deadly. I've experimented a bit with Dragon Pulse / Surf / Calm Mind / Substitute with Leftovers and its worked really well. Seismic Toss / Toxic Blissey laughs at it, but of course a smartly designed team will just lure and kill off Blissey before the Latios sweep.
If it was based solely on Choice Specs (and by no means does that blind me from the other sets) I'd have to go with Uber. Specs Draco Meteor will tear through some of the bulkiest things in the game, you pretty much need a Blissey or Empoleon. But with the advent of other sets that are just as deadly if more subtle when played correctly, I really have to vote Latios Uber.
I've found Suspect to be much less enjoyable than Standard. I see a lot more Bulky/Stall teams, and a lot of overcentralization (which is to be expected from Suspect, I suppose, but the consistency of Latios in particular is a bit excessive).
Latios has never come close to sweeping my team, and I only have two steels and only one priority user (metagross, one of the two steels).
I simply can't identify with MetaNite's statement.
I haven't played with my rating account for some time now due to some issues, so it's deviation is 57 or so now. As the requirement is 55 (unless my memory is mistaken), that means I'll probably have to finally get around to devoting some time to building a new team and playing again.
The more time that goes by the less satisfactory my old team is (why I quit playing with my rating account until I finally build the new team), yet, latios has nothing to do with this problem.
Perhaps I need to play around more, but so far I was (assuming I get around to dropping my deviation by a few points) planning on voting OU.
EDIT:
My final conclusion, however, would come after heavy consideration of the definition provided by smogon. My team may simply be able to beat it due to various checks and difficulty latios has in switching in; my vote isn't solid yet.
EDIT:
Oh, I only need 65 deviation?
Looks like I will make it despite not having played for two and a half weeks before the end of the test under my rating account.
I have still been playing with alternates, so I haven't by any means abandoned suspect and therefore wouldn't say I'm completely ignorant of any changes that occurred since then.
I simply can't identify with MetaNite's statement.
I haven't played with my rating account for some time now due to some issues, so it's deviation is 57 or so now. As the requirement is 55 (unless my memory is mistaken), that means I'll probably have to finally get around to devoting some time to building a new team and playing again.
The more time that goes by the less satisfactory my old team is (why I quit playing with my rating account until I finally build the new team), yet, latios has nothing to do with this problem.
Perhaps I need to play around more, but so far I was (assuming I get around to dropping my deviation by a few points) planning on voting OU.
EDIT:
My final conclusion, however, would come after heavy consideration of the definition provided by smogon. My team may simply be able to beat it due to various checks and difficulty latios has in switching in; my vote isn't solid yet.
EDIT:
Oh, I only need 65 deviation?
Looks like I will make it despite not having played for two and a half weeks before the end of the test under my rating account.
I have still been playing with alternates, so I haven't by any means abandoned suspect and therefore wouldn't say I'm completely ignorant of any changes that occurred since then.
Unfortunately, my main ended up dropping 50 points in a week due to drops, so I will be spending today suspect laddering on an alt I made last night to get my deviation to 65 hehe.
Doesn't Heatran beat Latios with HP ice?
And btw, if latios becomes OU, Meh dream come true.
And btw, if latios becomes OU, Meh dream come true.
Not really, hp ice from modest scarf-tran does 51.99% - 61.26% and since most scarf-tran are timid nowadays, you're only doing 47.68% - 55.96%. So, if you plan on using heatran to revenge latios dragon pulse deals more damage.
Happy to say I'm almost 100% sure I'm getting the right to vote, though as to how I'll vote I'm still unsure. True enough I've never been swept by a Latios, but then again I can't be sure if the people I played were just using it incorrectly. I plan on going back on tonight on an alt (afraid too many very good people are waiting till last minute) and seeing if some team can't change my mind about this. Will also keep reading the posts here so hopefully I can come to a decision soon.
I haven't been to the suspect ladder for quite a while (just recent came today), so I might not be eligible to vote, (My rating is currently 1566/75) so I'll try and express my thoughts about Latios here.
It seems that when people compare Latios, they compare it with his more defensive-oriented sister, Latias. During the suspect ladder, I have used latios a few times in battles, and I immediately noticed that it didn't prove itself to be a full-fledged uber, without the soul dew in hand.
Sure Latios has more attack-based moves (not to mention a higher special attack), but with things like Heatran and Scizor that are running around, Latios seems to have quite a bit of trouble trying to set up and sweep. Unlike Skymin though, he doesn't die to ice shards from mamo/vile and is much more unpredictable. Personally, when I compare Latios, I tend to compare it to Salamence for some reason, since both of them are capable of being great mixed sweeper.
While Salamence tends to be 4x Weak to ice and gets hampered by stealth rock, Latios has more trouble taking on steel types such as Scizor/Bronzong (without surf).
Like his younger sister, Latias, I feel that I have to vote Latios OU.
It seems that when people compare Latios, they compare it with his more defensive-oriented sister, Latias. During the suspect ladder, I have used latios a few times in battles, and I immediately noticed that it didn't prove itself to be a full-fledged uber, without the soul dew in hand.
Sure Latios has more attack-based moves (not to mention a higher special attack), but with things like Heatran and Scizor that are running around, Latios seems to have quite a bit of trouble trying to set up and sweep. Unlike Skymin though, he doesn't die to ice shards from mamo/vile and is much more unpredictable. Personally, when I compare Latios, I tend to compare it to Salamence for some reason, since both of them are capable of being great mixed sweeper.
While Salamence tends to be 4x Weak to ice and gets hampered by stealth rock, Latios has more trouble taking on steel types such as Scizor/Bronzong (without surf).
Like his younger sister, Latias, I feel that I have to vote Latios OU.
thats nice, even if you had made the requirement, and even if this were the place to vote, you would have to address the characteristics of uber in my stuck policy review thread (that you probably haven't read) i will have linked to in the real voting thread like everyone else
But this isn't the real voting thread though, and since I don't stand a chance in hell in making into the voting process, I thought that I might as well say my opinion here.
Does the test end midnight tonight or midnight tomorrow?
Anyway, I've been digging through some of the new Feb. stats and looking at some old ones too.
The first thing that interested me was this:
Most of the debate involved all had to due with the destructive power of the Specs set; yet it wasn't even the dominating item in terms of usage. Not only that but:
Most Latios ran Timid by a huge margin. Many times when people discussed Latios being uber, the pointed out just how destructive the Modest set was, 2hkoing just about everything except Blissey with the right move. However, its clear that the modest set getting outsped by opposing Latios really wasn't worth the 2hkoes. Modest is truly necessary for Latios to be able to beat some non-Blissey switch ins like JibakuTar without resorting to Grass Knot, but it definitely looks like people decided to put down the destructive potential of that set and went with Timid for that all important speed.
I think that sort of kills a lot of the whole Specs set being totally broken. Without Modest, Specs Latios isn't nearly as "broken" in terms of tearing stuff up, but its clear most people didn't want to go that path.
In terms of centralization, Latios was certainly a centralizing force. According to X-Act's stats, the diversity number for Suspect with Latios was 33, compared with 39 with Latias, and 59 for OU. However, this was still just a suspect test, therefore there is a lot of bias. Even though its only been one month, Latias Suspect testing had a diversity of 39, but once she was shifted to OU, the diversity was still 59, compared to 63 in Jan.
Anyway, I've been digging through some of the new Feb. stats and looking at some old ones too.
The first thing that interested me was this:
Most of the debate involved all had to due with the destructive power of the Specs set; yet it wasn't even the dominating item in terms of usage. Not only that but:
Most Latios ran Timid by a huge margin. Many times when people discussed Latios being uber, the pointed out just how destructive the Modest set was, 2hkoing just about everything except Blissey with the right move. However, its clear that the modest set getting outsped by opposing Latios really wasn't worth the 2hkoes. Modest is truly necessary for Latios to be able to beat some non-Blissey switch ins like JibakuTar without resorting to Grass Knot, but it definitely looks like people decided to put down the destructive potential of that set and went with Timid for that all important speed.
I think that sort of kills a lot of the whole Specs set being totally broken. Without Modest, Specs Latios isn't nearly as "broken" in terms of tearing stuff up, but its clear most people didn't want to go that path.
In terms of centralization, Latios was certainly a centralizing force. According to X-Act's stats, the diversity number for Suspect with Latios was 33, compared with 39 with Latias, and 59 for OU. However, this was still just a suspect test, therefore there is a lot of bias. Even though its only been one month, Latias Suspect testing had a diversity of 39, but once she was shifted to OU, the diversity was still 59, compared to 63 in Jan.
Well, you have to realize that even though it's at the end of the testing phase, Latios has not been in OU for very long. It takes some time to find the best set to deal with the most, and that explains the number of Orbs seen in early to mid February. However, I have not seen a single Latios carrying Life Orb in around two weeks. That just goes to show that people started realizing how detrimental the Orb damage was to a potential threat.
Edit: Sorry, that was directed at chenman. I wrote half of that, then had to tend to something, and returned to finish my response. Didn't realize two people would post in between, lol.
Edit: Sorry, that was directed at chenman. I wrote half of that, then had to tend to something, and returned to finish my response. Didn't realize two people would post in between, lol.
I don't know when you have been playing; I see plenty of orbs around.
For your claim to hold true, it would have to mean for the first half of the month or so, nearly the majority of Latios used LO; very doubtful as I have seen Specs Latios being used extensivly from the very beginning. The specs set, from the start of the test, was discussed and debated a lot for its power, and was used by a many to see what it could do.
The fact you haven't seen a LO Latios in 2 weeks probably tells more about when and who you play than what Latios uses.
For your claim to hold true, it would have to mean for the first half of the month or so, nearly the majority of Latios used LO; very doubtful as I have seen Specs Latios being used extensivly from the very beginning. The specs set, from the start of the test, was discussed and debated a lot for its power, and was used by a many to see what it could do.
The fact you haven't seen a LO Latios in 2 weeks probably tells more about when and who you play than what Latios uses.
Actually, I made sure when I tested that it was during different times of the day to get a full range of opponents. Not only that, but I definitely watched a decent amount of battles as well. The bottom line is, the number of Orb users have dropped significantly.
Also, honestly I do not know how you think that what's discussed in here = what's actually used. It is almost never the case, so that is irrelevant. It's usually just people trying to boast some damage calcs and whatnot. In fact, I have found that most people who bother to do tons of damage calcs actually don't end up playing as much as some other players. It might be because they think they're getting a bunch of experience through theormon alone.
And back to your original point, even if the statistics say one is used more than the other, it does not mean that it's the best set out there. The general public is rarely a good representation of what is the best.
Lol, so I hit upper reqs about a week ago with a 1760.5 rating and a deviation of 46.5 or something (I don't remember my deviation exactly). After that, I only tested on alts so that I wouldn't get haxed out of my upper reqs.
Right now, my rating is 1760.5, with a deviation of 54.5, right under the requirement. What I want to know is, when exactly does the rating get counted? If it gets counted tomorrow, I think my deviation will be 55.5, just out of the requirement. The original deadline was March 5th, so I thought the ratings would be taken today, meaning I'm still in upper reqs.
Does anybody know which one it is? I need to know in case I need to ladder last minute today to get my deviation down again. If not, I don't want to risk getting haxed out of upper reqs.
I will also PM Jumpman, but I wanted to post here in case anybody else knew. For all I know, Jumpman might not be on today, and I won't get a response until it's too late.
Edit: NVM, Jumpman responded, and looks like I'm good to go ^_^
Right now, my rating is 1760.5, with a deviation of 54.5, right under the requirement. What I want to know is, when exactly does the rating get counted? If it gets counted tomorrow, I think my deviation will be 55.5, just out of the requirement. The original deadline was March 5th, so I thought the ratings would be taken today, meaning I'm still in upper reqs.
Does anybody know which one it is? I need to know in case I need to ladder last minute today to get my deviation down again. If not, I don't want to risk getting haxed out of upper reqs.
I will also PM Jumpman, but I wanted to post here in case anybody else knew. For all I know, Jumpman might not be on today, and I won't get a response until it's too late.
Edit: NVM, Jumpman responded, and looks like I'm good to go ^_^
The list is taken at 11:30pm PST on the day of the deadline. Your deviation should stay at 54.5 for the final list.
I no longer fit the voting requirement, but from the considerable time I spent on Suspect, I found no significant indications of it being Uber. I was always able to baet opposing Latios. It's too easily revenged by many Pokes, notably Weavile who can Pursuit/Ice Punch/Shard depending on held item. It never OHKOd more than one of my Pokemon. As for the set I used to test Latios, I went with Timid @ Light Clay, Double Screen, Draco Meteor, Memento and found it outclassed by Uxie who I replaced it with.
In the beginning of the test, I tried to use either teams with Latios over Latias (from the last suspect test) or some successful teams straight from OU. I found that I could not stop the versatility of Latios; its power was just enough to break through my defense that held against Latias.
So for most of the test, I've had to resort to a stall team while testing Latios on a different account. From what I have seen, I believe Latios to be Uber. The unpredictability has really been a problem for me, even with Blissey. I usually try to catch it with Scarf Rotom or get it to trick something else if it has it. Luckily, Sdef invested Skarmory works pretty well against Mixed Latios w/o Thunderbolt.
Just made the voting requirements tonight as my deviation was extremely stubborn, sometimes increasing when I won. Will be interesting to see if it becomes OU or Uber.
So for most of the test, I've had to resort to a stall team while testing Latios on a different account. From what I have seen, I believe Latios to be Uber. The unpredictability has really been a problem for me, even with Blissey. I usually try to catch it with Scarf Rotom or get it to trick something else if it has it. Luckily, Sdef invested Skarmory works pretty well against Mixed Latios w/o Thunderbolt.
Just made the voting requirements tonight as my deviation was extremely stubborn, sometimes increasing when I won. Will be interesting to see if it becomes OU or Uber.
I agree. The specs set in particular is ridiculous. I've heard mixed opinions from others, but I will definitely be voting Uber.
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