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np: Latios - "unban me"
- Thread starter Jumpman16
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So, it looks like latios is going to be banned :P. Anyway, I'm mainly posting to say: If you don't like the decisions being made about the suspects, then do something about it! Get on suspect, get the voting requirements and gain more knowledge and then people will be more likely to listen to your reasons and you yourself will be able to influence the vote, (this is fairly obvious but I just thought it should be said).
This. I still don't understand why people complain about tiering placement when they have a chance to determine where it's gonna be placed anyway. Unless you have a legitimate claim/reason to not partake in the suspect test, why bother criticizing?
Sigh I guess I apologize for starting things up. I'm really only saying that because it's too late, and therefore it's my fault for not going on earlier (perhaps I expected too much...). Latios is Uber until Stage 3 and there's nothing I can do about it. I wish I could say more, but all will be pointless. I just wanted to question the logic upon why people decide that Latios is Uber because I felt no one had argued anything aside from Specs being too powerful, and I didn't quite find it convincing.
To sum it all I'm sorry for all of this. I guess I should just stay out of this and go back and play ubers.
To sum it all I'm sorry for all of this. I guess I should just stay out of this and go back and play ubers.
I may have missed this test in my absence, but I've been reading the last few pages of this thread and I want to post about it now that Latios is Uber. I'm not going to post my theorymon here as fact. I just thought of how I would personally handle the threat of Latios and I really couldnt figure it out.
To people who love toting the "Pursuit weak" line: name one pursuiter that can switch into any Latios set. Even if your argument revolves around Latios spamming Draco Meteor (which is good enough to 2hko almost all of OU on its own), what about its other moves? What happens if you switch your Tyranitar or Scizor into a Specs Surf? Answer: you just lost your Pursuiter. Even though you can get plenty of KOs by just spamming Draco Meteor, the proponents of Latios being OU keep assuming that this is the case all the time and it is making their arguments laughable. Latios' amazing typing, immunity to Spikes and TSpikes and neutrality to SR make it very easy to switch in. 80/80/110 defenses, an immunity to the most common attacking type and its long list of resistances give Latios much more lasting power than people give it credit for. Latios not only counters a significant number of OU pokemon, it completely destroys them.
Yes, Blissey does a good job beating the special sets, but that is one pokemon out of almost 480 that are allowed in OU. Latios can obviously "sweep through a significant portion of teams with little to no effort" since the only safe switchin is Blissey. Just because it does have safe switchins if you "predict right", doesn't mean that those switchins will always be there. Let's be real here. It's turn 30 of a match..what are the chances that your Tyranitar is at 100% HP? Pretty slim.
Oh, and about the whole "salamence is better": Yes, Stealth Rock weakness does make a difference. Cutting the amount of times you can switch into a battle in half is very significant. Also, Salamence is at a disadvantage because its best sets are physically oriented, in a metagame full of defensively oriented pokemon. Defensive Zapdos, Celebi, Gyarados, Skarmory, etc that are abundant because countering physical threats is much more important than countering special threats can not put up a fight against the special based Latios. This is why SpecsMence is good. Latios being better than SpecsMence just means that it is better. Also, this really isn't a wildly convincing point, but having access to Thunderbolt, Surf, Calm Mind and Memento is a pretty big selling point in deciding between Latios and SpecsMence.
Latios' superior speed and typing make it a far better choice for a set like the Memento one. Your question about Uxie is like asking "why isn't Azelf Uber like Deoxys-Speed, it can also use Dual Screen+Taunt+SR!" which is obviously ridiculous.
The thing I find hilarious about the OU reasoning is that people say "there are many ways of dealing with Latios", but then they can only list one pokemon that can switch in, and two pokemon that can pursuit it. From what I've read in this thread, the best ways of dealing with Latios are either: 1) let something die to Draco Meteor and then Pursuit/revenge it and 2) Blissey. Neither of those options are appealing to me. I would never switch Tyranitar or Scizor into Latios unless it was already at -2 SpA. Mamoswine and Weavile are never coming into Latios unless something was just KOd. So, even though it is obvious that Latios does have ways of being checked in OU, they are all far too situational to claim that Latios is "easily covered" defensively, save Blissey, which leads me to believe that Latios falls under the offensive category of the Uber definition.
I just feel like the ratio of "number of things Latios comes into and beats without getting touched" : "number of things that can win if Latios comes in" is way too high.
To people who love toting the "Pursuit weak" line: name one pursuiter that can switch into any Latios set. Even if your argument revolves around Latios spamming Draco Meteor (which is good enough to 2hko almost all of OU on its own), what about its other moves? What happens if you switch your Tyranitar or Scizor into a Specs Surf? Answer: you just lost your Pursuiter. Even though you can get plenty of KOs by just spamming Draco Meteor, the proponents of Latios being OU keep assuming that this is the case all the time and it is making their arguments laughable. Latios' amazing typing, immunity to Spikes and TSpikes and neutrality to SR make it very easy to switch in. 80/80/110 defenses, an immunity to the most common attacking type and its long list of resistances give Latios much more lasting power than people give it credit for. Latios not only counters a significant number of OU pokemon, it completely destroys them.
Yes, Blissey does a good job beating the special sets, but that is one pokemon out of almost 480 that are allowed in OU. Latios can obviously "sweep through a significant portion of teams with little to no effort" since the only safe switchin is Blissey. Just because it does have safe switchins if you "predict right", doesn't mean that those switchins will always be there. Let's be real here. It's turn 30 of a match..what are the chances that your Tyranitar is at 100% HP? Pretty slim.
Oh, and about the whole "salamence is better": Yes, Stealth Rock weakness does make a difference. Cutting the amount of times you can switch into a battle in half is very significant. Also, Salamence is at a disadvantage because its best sets are physically oriented, in a metagame full of defensively oriented pokemon. Defensive Zapdos, Celebi, Gyarados, Skarmory, etc that are abundant because countering physical threats is much more important than countering special threats can not put up a fight against the special based Latios. This is why SpecsMence is good. Latios being better than SpecsMence just means that it is better. Also, this really isn't a wildly convincing point, but having access to Thunderbolt, Surf, Calm Mind and Memento is a pretty big selling point in deciding between Latios and SpecsMence.
Latios' superior speed and typing make it a far better choice for a set like the Memento one. Your question about Uxie is like asking "why isn't Azelf Uber like Deoxys-Speed, it can also use Dual Screen+Taunt+SR!" which is obviously ridiculous.
The thing I find hilarious about the OU reasoning is that people say "there are many ways of dealing with Latios", but then they can only list one pokemon that can switch in, and two pokemon that can pursuit it. From what I've read in this thread, the best ways of dealing with Latios are either: 1) let something die to Draco Meteor and then Pursuit/revenge it and 2) Blissey. Neither of those options are appealing to me. I would never switch Tyranitar or Scizor into Latios unless it was already at -2 SpA. Mamoswine and Weavile are never coming into Latios unless something was just KOd. So, even though it is obvious that Latios does have ways of being checked in OU, they are all far too situational to claim that Latios is "easily covered" defensively, save Blissey, which leads me to believe that Latios falls under the offensive category of the Uber definition.
I just feel like the ratio of "number of things Latios comes into and beats without getting touched" : "number of things that can win if Latios comes in" is way too high.
change your sig and your custom title or you are going to be even more sorry
On second thought, since j7r decides to bring it up after I decided to stop...
Salamence may be Stealth Rocked, but it still stands that finding a safe switch into Mence is tougher than Latios, because it is more diverse. Switch your Zappy in, get Stealth Rock damage, and die to Specs Draco Meteor or CB Outrage. Celebi swaps in, only to find out Salamence DDed on the switch and is preparing to annihilate it with DDOrb Outrage after Celebi has eaten Stealth Rock (same for Zappy). In another game, a Skarmory tries to switch in, only to be liquefied by Specs Flamethrower. My point is, Salamence gets rid of things quicker than Latios can, even with Stealth Rock weakness, and Latios might let things live in a shot, allowing the opponent to hopefully adapt with his or her remaining check(s).
SpecsLatios falls to suicide baits. If you can keep your suicide lead, for instance alive after setting up a Stealth Rock or whatever, you can switch your dead lead in and nail Latios through Pursuit with your next one. While this same tactic works on any other super hard choicer, Latios is an exception due to its weakness to Pursuit, while everything else can switch out and not die. It's always good to keep a weak Pokemon alive if your opponent lets in a predictable action such as Bullet Punching, and this situation is no exception. You won't have a weak Pokemon all the time, but if you do the results pay off amazingly.
Also we'll all have to be real here. Latios isn't Surfing everytime Tyranitar comes in, or Draco Meteoring every time another Latios is coming in.
...don't encourage me to go further. If you want to debate PM me.
"any" is a big word. Any Pokemon can stop Pursuit. Even Cresselia can Reflect/HP Fight Tyranitar and Weavile to death. Tyranitar is a pretty safe bet for the most part, with Specs Draco Meteor not 2HKOing it. Surf can 2HKO TTar, but I'm taking back to the original argument of some people: "it takes no skill to press Draco Meteor". At any chance Tyranitar switches in correctly, Latios will die and Tyranitar will be left crippled. Scizor can handle Latios to an extent too-just stuff EVs into Special Defense and treat Latios like Latias. What I mean is if Scizor has EVs focused more defensively, Latios is essentially Latias to it. You just have to thread carefully like you would with other Choicers. The metagame isn't about countering everything nowadays.
The word sweep is a lot to describe Latios. It's been said that Pursuit threatens it severely, so how does it sweep when it kills a guy and dies to the next? Also, you can switch Bronzong and Empoleon into Draco Meteor if they're EVed correctly. So can Metagross. So can Scizor. So can Jirachi. It's less of centralization and more of adapting to the situation just like you might EV to adapt to something else.
Salamence may be Stealth Rocked, but it still stands that finding a safe switch into Mence is tougher than Latios, because it is more diverse. Switch your Zappy in, get Stealth Rock damage, and die to Specs Draco Meteor or CB Outrage. Celebi swaps in, only to find out Salamence DDed on the switch and is preparing to annihilate it with DDOrb Outrage after Celebi has eaten Stealth Rock (same for Zappy). In another game, a Skarmory tries to switch in, only to be liquefied by Specs Flamethrower. My point is, Salamence gets rid of things quicker than Latios can, even with Stealth Rock weakness, and Latios might let things live in a shot, allowing the opponent to hopefully adapt with his or her remaining check(s).
SpecsLatios falls to suicide baits. If you can keep your suicide lead, for instance alive after setting up a Stealth Rock or whatever, you can switch your dead lead in and nail Latios through Pursuit with your next one. While this same tactic works on any other super hard choicer, Latios is an exception due to its weakness to Pursuit, while everything else can switch out and not die. It's always good to keep a weak Pokemon alive if your opponent lets in a predictable action such as Bullet Punching, and this situation is no exception. You won't have a weak Pokemon all the time, but if you do the results pay off amazingly.
Also we'll all have to be real here. Latios isn't Surfing everytime Tyranitar comes in, or Draco Meteoring every time another Latios is coming in.
Deoxys and Azelf are so remotely different in terms of Speed that it's ridiculous. Deoxys hits 504 Speed, Azelf his 361. That's a big difference in comparison to 350 to 317. And again, typing doesn't matter too much because if either can swap in, they can set up Screens and Memento away because they're safer behind the screens. Taunt from anything either prevents the Second screen or Memento, and at least Uxie can U-turn away while Latios has no choice.
...don't encourage me to go further. If you want to debate PM me.
What if you played the suspect ladder the entire time, but still couldn't make it? I don't think that's really fair for the people who made it into voting right after just playing one day, compared to the people who played the suspect ladder the entire time, but still couldn't. I was wondering if we could make the suspect voting process only to those who used the suspect pokemon thoroughly?
...then you suck as a battler, or are just not taking the process seriously enough. I'm not that serious of a battler, so I didn't make it - but anyone who is serious about making the list that didn't battle consistently throughout the Suspect Test is probably just not good enough of a battler to make a decision.
![Mia [old]](/forums/data/avatars/m/17/17136.jpg?1387813379){kind=avatar}
It seems that our "portrait of an uber" mystery is solved. Any Pokemon who's stat base totals over 600 without Truant or Slow Start, or any base 600 with Sand Veil or who's Speed and Special Attack stat bases sum to exceed 230 is Uber.
=/
Two words: Special Permission. And a lot of players that did actually make rating didn't even get to vote, so you really aren't one to complain.
EDIT:
Alakazam: 255
Gengar: 240
Jolteon: 240
Espeon: 240
As said below, Azef.
In other words, Slaking is UU...
Let's see, I've played the suspect ladder consistently throught the suspect test, but I still couldn't make it because my ratings weren't high enough. That's not fair for some people (even though they're not that good at battling), especially regarding the fact that you might have faced more skillful opponents in the suspect ladder compared to other people.
Because those four pokemon have base stat totals that are equal to 600...
Now i dont agree with what Misa said, but if you are gonna quote him to try and prove HIM wrong, make sure YOU are right yourself
It's a sign of inexperience, which one can assume that means that the player won't make a very wise decision. However, like I mentioned, you could have submitted a special application and tried to get the vote that way. That's what it's there for; if you don't make rating. So your name wasn't on the list; big deal. If you really think you would have made a quality vote and could prove it to Jumpman, you could have applied and sent your paragraph just like anybody on the list.
But looking at that massive list and few people that actually got it, chances are your vote may have been rejected anyways, so get over it. You have less to be angry about than a lot of other players.
To the above poster: with all the "or" that was thrown into the post, I missed that it was in combination with the >600 thing. Chill.
I wasn't really angry, I was just confused on how this voting process worked.
Anyways, what's done is done with. If the vote is especially close, Jumpman might end up stalling the whole Latios thing till stage 3, so let's just wait for that instead.
Just a thought here, but with the new topic not including LonelyNess's vote, how do we know that people won't be influenced one way or another, especially with people posting their paragraphs?
I'm guessing that most people made up their decisions before voting, especially since one paragraph really isn't going to change anyone's minds on what to vote anyways (anyone who gets influenced by a paragraph written by someone else should reconsider).
Also, most of the people that voted, wrote what he voted on the thread, so Jumpman knows who voted what (in most of the cases).
Ah, ok. I see now. I'm just saying that because a 14-16 OU-uber vote could change to 15-15 with one click.
The vote is so close. I'm really hoping OU, but we'll see. The scale has always been slightly tipped towards Uber, but hopefully enough OU votes can come in and Latios can join his twin in.
I believe this has been one of the closest votes yet? I have a feeling Manaphy is going to be even tighter.
I believe this has been one of the closest votes yet? I have a feeling Manaphy is going to be even tighter.
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