Salamence Testing: A Feasible Proposition?

[BalancedPower]

Well I am not going to argue against Weavile being able to revenge kill Chomp, as a CB Ice Punch OHKOs even through Yache. However, you must sacrifice atleast one pokemon, and unlike Salamence, Garchomp doesn't need to lock itself into Outrage because it hits bulky waters/grounds plenty hard with a +2 EQ.

Misa:
This whole sacrifice isn't really necessary, since Weavile can switch into chomp while he's SDing and threaten an OHKO. Not a problem. This method faces major problems against choice sets though. On the other hand, Salamence outspeeding Weavile is a futile argument.

Salamence can be slowed down by Thunder Wave, unlike Garchomp, and Ice Shards OHKO Salamence anyways.

Misa:
If my calculations are correct, Salamence should be able to survive an ice shard if he's equipped with Yache berry.

Problem is that Weavile is as good a counter to Salamence with Ice Shard. Both have that problem. But...Garchomp doesn't suffer from a Thunder Wave cripple. That is a major reason for this. Garchomp is valued for his typing, Ground/Dragon, Ice is the other major threat other then Dragon which Salamence faces as well. Therefore Yache Berry, covers it's major weakness, really making him a beast to reckon with. Whereas Salamence needs Life Orb/Specs/Band to be a beast unless you are going bulky which Chomp does better newayz, the fact that he is much weaker makes a powerup move such as DD much more dangerous, and if you look at it. Chomp gets SD off, and takes out Weavile then is easily available to sweep. Plus just for covering a weakness with Yache Berry on Salamence, you still face SR weakness and...TWave weakness, and losing one of the things that make you such a beast.
Fact is Yache Berry Salamence doesn't have the same effect on Salamence then it does on Garchomp

 

[Relictivity]

                                                                      Originally Posted by Fat blasphemy1                     [URL="http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1796597#post1796597"][IMG]http://www.smogon.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif[/IMG][/URL]                 
                 [I]Well I am not going to argue against Weavile being able to revenge kill Chomp, as a CB Ice Punch OHKOs even through Yache. However, you must sacrifice atleast one pokemon, and unlike Salamence, Garchomp doesn't need to lock itself into Outrage because it hits bulky waters/grounds plenty hard with a +2 EQ.[/I]
 
[I]Misa:[/I]
[I]This whole sacrifice isn't really necessary, since Weavile can switch into chomp while he's SDing and threaten an OHKO. Not a problem. This method faces major problems against choice sets though.  On the other hand, Salamence outspeeding Weavile is a futile argument. [/I]
 
[I]Salamence can be slowed down by Thunder Wave, unlike Garchomp, and Ice Shards OHKO Salamence anyways.[/I]
 
[I]Misa:[/I]
[I]If my calculations are correct, Salamence should be able to survive an ice shard if he's equipped with Yache berry. [/I]

Problem is that Weavile is as good a counter to Salamence with Ice Shard. Both have that problem. That's why we are trying to draw the similarities. But...Garchomp doesn't suffer from a Thunder Wave cripple. However, in order to properly Paralyze Salamence, you lose one of your pokemon, so it does not really matter cause though it's "more stoppable" than Garchomp, you will still likely lose 2+ pokemon. And honestly, not all teams run paralysis. Are we about to make the metagame more centralized? That is a major reason for this. Garchomp is valued for his typing, Ground/Dragon, Ice is the other major threat other then Dragon which Salamence faces as well. Therefore Yache Berry, covers it's major weakness, really making him a beast to reckon with. Whereas Salamence needs Life Orb/Specs/Band to be a beast unless you are going bulky which Chomp does better newayz, the fact that he is much weaker makes a powerup move such as DD much more dangerous, and if you look at it. You are forgetting Dragon Dance. Someone just wrote a successful warstory off of DD YacheMence. Chomp gets SD off, and takes out Weavile then is easily available to sweep. People will play Weavile solely to take out Chomp... they are not going to just reveal their suprise early. Plus just for covering a weakness with Yache Berry on Salamence, you still face SR weakness Mence can and still does sweep with 75% health. and...TWave weakness, and losing one of the things that make you such a beast.
Fact is Yache Berry Salamence doesn't have the same effect on Salamence then it does on Garchomp

Yes we realize it does not have the exact same effect. But it has some very similare effects. The major difference is while Mence scares off things like Zong and Skarm better, Garchomp scared off the grounded steels better.

I do not see how you guys think that Salamence is not centralizing the metagame - please explain why you think so.

 

[Darkmalice]

Yes we realize it does not have the exact same effect. But it has some very similare effects. The major difference is while Mence scares off things like Zong and Skarm better, Garchomp scared off the grounded steels better.

I do not see how you guys think that Salamence is not centralizing the metagame - please explain why you think so.

Many of Salamence's checks are just common pokemon in the metagame. Scizor, Heatran, Metagross, Bronzong, Latias, Latios (suspect only), Flygon, Jirachi, Skarmory, Mamoswine, Cresselia, Forretress, Hippowdon, Rhyperior.

Most effective teams deal with Salamence via a combinaton of checks. It works well. Salamence is very powerful, but he's not unstoppable or gamebreaking.

These threats would be common regardless of Salamence being Uber or OU. Havent you heard that Steel and Dragon types dominate the OU metagame? What happens if Salamence goes away? Other dragons like Flygon, Dragonite, Kingdra and even Latias will increase in popularity (Latias, whilst lacking effective physical sweeping options, will gain popularity thanks to better speed for pulling off Draco Meteor). If you're saying that Salamence is overcentralising due to these checks, or the domination of Steel and Dragon types, you're missing something.

 

[Relictivity]

Many of Salamence's checks are just common pokemon in the metagame. Scizor Fire Blast or Earthquke, Heatran Earthquke, Metagross Earthquke, Bronzong One of the few safer switches in as Fire Blast does not do enough, Latias Dragon Pulse, Dragon Claw, or Outrage, Latios (suspect only)Dragon Pulse, Dragon Claw, or Outrage, FlygonDragon Pulse, Dragon Claw, or Outrage, Jirachi Earthquake, Skarmory Fire Blast, Mamoswine Only a good check because of prioirty, Cresselia Depends on the Salamence set, Forretress Fire Blast, Hippowdon Outrage or Draco Meteor, Rhyperior Draco Meteor and Hydro Pump.

You might argue, that Salamence cannot carry that many moves at once. I say, let's assume it's carrying 3 and Dragon Dance. It obviously has Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse and Outrage/Dragon Claw. It's last move determines what the true counters (who can only swtich in to revenge kill, lol) will be. If Mence runs Earthquake, Scizor will make do. If mence runs Fire Blast or Fire Fang, Heatran will do the job. However, think of how because of the commonness and maybe even overcentralization to an extent Scizor has show, and you realize, that Magnezone will rid them of their precious Scizor. And not overcentralized (because it's role rises mainly due to other threats), Heatran can be destroyed by Dugtrio. All the other pokemon except for Hypnosis Bronzong (and maybe Ice Beam Cress) won't be able to serve as decent switch ins.

Most effective teams deal with Salamence via a combinaton of checks. It works well. Salamence is very powerful, but he's not unstoppable or gamebreaking. You need to show me WHY he's not unstoppable or game breaking.

These threats would be common regardless of Salamence being Uber or OU. Havent you heard that Steel and Dragon types dominate the OU metagame? Yes, I was taliking about this earlier, how the metagame IS Ice, Dragon, Steel. What happens if Salamence goes away? Other dragons like Flygon I'm hoping that this one will not be powerful enough to rise much further, since it is used as a scout, Dragonite A more defenseive Salamence, There are more ices above or equal to 80 speed than to 100 Speed, of course, ther is DD, so this would be a less speedy Salamence, Kingdra Uses Dragon Dance and even Latias will increase in popularity (Latias, whilst lacking effective physical sweeping options, will gain popularity thanks to better speed for pulling off Draco Meteor). If you're saying that Salamence is overcentralising due to these checks, or the domination of Steel and Dragon types, you're missing something. No, I'm thinking that everyone is running multiple Salamence checks just to stop it. And now, with you talking about these 4 pokemon you feel would replace Mence, I ask you, what got us dug into such a deep hole? What made it so the metagame was based off threat off another threat off another threat. We shouldn't be intorducing threats to deal with the current threat, we shoul be making team building alot more open than to just the standards. Because slowly, that is what OU is moving to... just the standards. It's overcentralizing!

 

[QibingZero]

"The pokemon community is simply ban happy" colin said something similar to that and I 100 per cent agree.

Yeah, clearly the fact that 75% of the voters in this thread don't even consider Salamence a suspect backs up your point, too.

Statements like these are part of the reason we have trouble getting any real substantial argument together on Stark sometimes. What point do posts like this one serve other than to further derail the topic?

The funny thing is, what I would have taken from X-Act's statement is that most of the reason Salamence isn't suspect is that 'people want to use it'. I also think that this mentality almost always wins over the 'ban-happy' one. People want to use a pokemon, and, no matter how much it adversely affects the metagame, they consider the availability of that one pokemon to be 'better' than if it were banned. The problem is, if we're taking that attitude we might as well just play Ubers. It defeats the entire purpose of having separate tiers in the first place.


In any case, this thread has come full circle back to where it was half as many posts ago. Back at that point I posted this, and yet now we're talking about Garchomp, revenge killing, and theorymon yet again. I'm sorry, but arguments like 'Celebi with HP ice' are exactly what we try to avoid in discussions on Stark - especially in a thread like this which is already a bit 'touchy' to begin with.

 

[Tangerine]

People arguing in this thread reminds me of people arguing about Garchomp. They ignore anyone who might actually lead the argument to a concrete argument that can be used and end up in a giant theorymon circlejerk that just doesn't end mostly because people are incapable of reading.