Salamence Testing: A Feasible Proposition?

[Thorns]

Fuck, this is a Salamence thread. I think everyone knows that DDMence > DDNite, due to higher speed. Dragonite will never, ever be as good as Mence, because, seriously, 80 base Speed? The only set Dragonite should ever run is Bulky DD, Defensive threat eliminator, or Support. Salamence outclasses any other set.

(also mence actually switches in easier, despite inferior defenses thanks to Intimidate)

and yes, there is a 100% counter for Dragonite. It's called any faster Pokemon who canntake a hit (and there are a lot of these)

OK, we're not allowed to make posts like this. Let's stop the comparisons. Anyway, I disagree with Outrage being a reason for being eligible for testing, and Salamence having the following moveset: Dragon Dance/Outrage/Dragon Claw/Earthquake/Fire Blast/Draco Meteor/Hydro Pump/Roost and equipped with a Choice Band, a Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Leftovers and a Life Orb.

Point is, once you find out which set Salamence is running, you should be able to kill it. LO damage is a dead giveaway that it's either mix or DD. Continuous switching means Choice, and Lefties means Bulky DD.

 

[lati0s]

Fuck, this is a Salamence thread. I think everyone knows that DDMence > DDNite, due to higher speed. Dragonite will never, ever be as good as Mence, because, seriously, 80 base Speed? The only set Dragonite should ever run is Bulky DD, Defensive threat eliminator, or Support. Salamence outclasses any other set.

assuming that you're talking to me, I wasn't saying that DDnite was better then DDmence, all I was saying was that nite can pull a sustained sweep

and yes, there is a 100% counter for Dragonite. It's called any faster Pokemon who can take a hit (and there are a lot of these)

name one.

 

[Relictivity]

assuming that you're talking to me, I wasn't saying that DDnite was better then DDmence, all I was saying was that nite can pull a sustained sweep

name one.

I'll PM you my answer.

Anyways Thorns, are you willing to let one of your pokemon be KOd to figure out what version of Mence it could possibly be. You may even lose a second pokemon if you think it is the wrong set. Arguably, other pokemon can do the same, but I don't think to as much success.

We aren't supposed to be comparing pokemon like this... could we drop Dragonite, at least in this thread... please.
We can discuss it in the Dragonite Thread instead.

 

[Misa]

Point is, once you find out which set Salamence is running, you should be able to kill it. LO damage is a dead giveaway that it's either mix or DD. Continuous switching means Choice, and Lefties means Bulky DD.

Wasn't this the same for Garchomp as well? If Garchomp was switching a lot, it was either choice band/scarfed. Not to mention Garchomp had a harder time dealing with steels like Bronzong and Skarmory because unlike Salamence, Garchomp was mostly running Physical-oriented sets all the time.

(also, remember the time where some people used to run STchomp?)

 

[blasphemy1]

Wasn't this the same for Garchomp as well? If Garchomp was switching a lot, it was either choice band/scarfed. Not to mention Garchomp had a harder time dealing with steels like Bronzong and Skarmory because unlike Salamence, Garchomp was mostly running Physical-oriented sets all the time.

(also, remember the time where some people used to run STchomp?)

The difference is you couldn't slow Garchomp down with Thunder Wave, and he 2HKOed everything in the game after a SD. Ice Shards didn't even kill him w/out CB...

 

[lati0s]

and the fact that even if you knew he was running SD yachechomp almost nothing could switch in safely

 

[bearsfan092]

I think what separates Mence from Garchomp is the typing. As Flygon knows, Ground/Dragon has got to be one of the best typings. Thunderwave resistant, so it can't be slowed down very easily. In addition, Salamence lacks some of the bulk of Garchomp, as blasphemy notes, Ice shards bounced off Yache Chomp while he outraged in their face. Also SR taking 25 percent of Salamence's health doesn't exactly help.

I just find Mence easily enough to eliminate. Outrage is too easy to trap him with, but you can manipulate the flying type to your advantage. You can also cripple him with TW too easily.

 

[BalancedPower]

He is simply too easily countered, and a glass-cannon in my eyes.
Stealth Rock does a lot of damage.
The flying is a huge weakness for Salamence, sure you are immune to ground, SR weakness/Elec weakness.
Thunder Wave/Ice Shard destroy him even more
Ice Beam from anyone destroys him including Blissey

 

[Relictivity]

The difference is you couldn't slow Garchomp down with Thunder Wave, and he 2HKOed everything in the game after a SD. Ice Shards didn't even kill him w/out CB...

...But did not have the speed to outrun Weavile. So he had to run Sandstorm to prevent Weavile from ruining his sweep. Weavile's attacks still packed the punch, even with the Yache Berry.

Also, nothing can switch into Salamence safely either.

Also, you are wondering why he is easily countered... it's because WE have forced the metagame to adapt around HIM. You put quite a few checks on your teams for Salamence, becuase YOU KNOW that it has the sweeping potential. Well then why, now that Latias is OU, and outspeeds him, why isn't Garchomp OU then, it now can be revenge killed, easily. It's the same excuse. The fact is, we are centralizing the metagame. We are causing it to be Ice, and Dragon, and Steel. Because the other pokemon cannot keep up, they were not given the heavy advantages of these other types.

What Ice has gained: More 4X weaks (If, Skymin was OU, imagine how often you would see Ice Shard on top of what you see now)

What Dragon has gained: A more distributal Outrage, to be accompanied with a Draco Meteor.

What Steel has gained: More importance, do the resistance of Dragon and Ice, and in general, being great pokemon.

Truthfully, I am tired of this thread going on and on and on. We aren't getting anywhere. What arguments stated so far MATTER? What truly determines Salamence's status... does it fit the criteria? And the truth is, nobody knows, because Salamence may not have been revealed to it's full potential yet. And above all, should we consider what is best for the metagame? All questions I do not have the answer for.

Sorry if I seem intense in this post, it's just... I am. We haven't been able to dig into the big picture, and we seem to be stalling each other with the old arguments. We need some new ideas. New ideas...

 

[RaikouLover]

Originally Posted by Relictivity
...But did not have the speed to outrun Weavile. So he had to run Sandstorm to prevent Weavile from ruining his sweep. Weavile's attacks still packed the punch, even with the Yache Berry.

Thats a joke right?

Originally Posted by Relictivity
Also, nothing can switch into Salamence safely either.

Cresselia. If your argument is "Choice Band Outrage," then thats a fail argument since that is walled by steels, not to mention TrickScarf Cresselia still beats it.

Originally Posted by Relictivity
Also, you are wondering why he is easily countered... it's because WE have forced the metagame to adapt around HIM.

Bullshit. Salamence is easily countered by Sandstorm + Life Orb + Stealth Rock + priority, which is what 80% of the people in the thread already told you.

Originally Posted by Relictivity
Well then why, now that Latias is OU, and outspeeds him, why isn't Garchomp OU then, it now can be revenge killed, easily. It's the same excuse. The fact is, we are centralizing the metagame.

Show me a metagame that isn't centralized? But in all seriousness, the Garchomp metagame was centralized less around Dragon / Dragon / Steel / Steel because Garchomp could give a shit about steel pokemon. Maybe that is the problem. But you certainly didn't see those teams in the 'chomp era because he could dismantle them 1 by 1.

Originally Posted by Relictivity
What Dragon has gained: A more distributal Outrage, to be accompanied with a Draco Meteor.

I can appreciate this point. Outrage IS a major cause of the whole 2-3 Steel per team rule. However, Outrage as a move is poor for that reason alone, it allows you to get walled. Its not a good or bad thing IMO, its just people adapting to it.

 

[Relictivity]

Thank You for responding :)

I'll do some damage calcs for Weavile and see if it can revenge kill. Because, so far, all of the argument against Mence have been revenge killing.

Also, there are things that can switch into Garchomp. Depending on whether it runs Fire Blast, or Fire Fang, either Bronzong or Skarmory stop it. Does this meant we should run them always, on every team? No way? Does this mean we should run Cress on every team for Mence? Not a chance.

There are also plenty of things that can revenge-kill Garchomp. But isn't this what we were argued Garchomp uber for... being always to nearly always kill a pokemon. Salamence does the same thing, to only slightly less effect.

And about an uncentralized metagame... that is what I am trying to find. Isn't that our goal, to make the metagame less centralized, by creating the tier systems? So if we don't decentralize it know, doesn't it make it purposeless to create tier systems? Also, I'd like to point out that even if we brough Chomp back to the metagame, eliminating our Steel Problem somewhat (although Scizor would still be... well you get the idea), it's just adding to our Dragon and Ice problem. That's still overcentralizing the metagame.

The thing is about Outrage, is that you use it as a clean-up sweep move, or last stand move, so really, you should not lock yourself in early.

I want you to tell me what you think of this statement, whether you think it's wrong or right, overdone or underdone, everything.

"A metagame should effect a pokemon more than the pokemon effects the metagame."

 

[Pyromanic]

Because, so far, all of the argument against Mence have been revenge killing.

See list of quotes.

Also, there are things that can switch into Garchomp. Depending on whether it runs Fire Blast, or Fire Fang, either Bronzong or Skarmory stop it. Does this meant we should run them always, on every team? No way? Does this mean we should run Cress on every team for Mence? Not a chance.

Skarm doesn't like +2 fire fangs. The only other thing could not kill it or were gimmicks. Scarf cresselia.

There are also plenty of things that can revenge-kill Garchomp. But isn't this what we were argued Garchomp uber for... being always to nearly always kill a pokemon. Salamence does the same thing, to only slightly less effect.

What do you mean by slightly? Non-scarf cresslia still serves as a counter.

And about an uncentralized metagame... that is what I am trying to find. Isn't that our goal, to make the metagame less centralized, by creating the tier systems? So if we don't decentralize it know, doesn't it make it purposeless to create tier systems? Also, I'd like to point out that even if we brough Chomp back to the metagame, eliminating our Steel Problem somewhat (although Scizor would still be... well you get the idea), it's just adding to our Dragon and Ice problem. That's still overcentralizing the metagame.

Our metagame will ALWAYS be centralized. We would have to ban 492 pokemon before it was uncentralized.

The thing is about Outrage, is that you use it as a clean-up sweep move, or last stand move, so really, you should not lock yourself in early.

Then you lack the power to kill a lot of stuff.

Bullshit. Salamence is easily countered by Sandstorm + Life Orb + Stealth Rock + priority, which is what 80% of the people in the thread already told you. Show me a metagame that isn't centralized? But in all seriousness, the Garchomp metagame was centralized less around Dragon / Dragon / Steel / Steel because Garchomp could give a shit about steel pokemon. Maybe that is the problem. But you certainly didn't see those teams in the 'chomp era because he could dismantle them 1 by 1.

I think what separates Mence from Garchomp is the typing. As Flygon knows, Ground/Dragon has got to be one of the best typings. Thunderwave resistant, so it can't be slowed down very easily. In addition, Salamence lacks some of the bulk of Garchomp, as blasphemy notes, Ice shards bounced off Yache Chomp while he outraged in their face. Also SR taking 25 percent of Salamence's health doesn't exactly help.

I just find Mence easily enough to eliminate. Outrage is too easy to trap him with, but you can manipulate the flying type to your advantage. You can also cripple him with TW too easily.

The difference is you couldn't slow Garchomp down with Thunder Wave, and he 2HKOed everything in the game after a SD. Ice Shards didn't even kill him w/out CB...

 

[Relictivity]

See list of quotes.


Skarm doesn't like +2 fire fangs. The only other thing could not kill it or were gimmicks. Scarf cresselia. Acutually, I think Skarm got majorly hurt, but forced it out if I renembered corectly.

What do you mean by slightly? Non-scarf cresslia still serves as a counter.
Does Cress serve as a counter for Chomp?

Our metagame will ALWAYS be centralized. We would have to ban 492 pokemon before it was uncentralized. I have a major problem with this statement. This is fatalism - you dont' control anything, and it is to my belief that you control at least something small in everything, if you try. No, a decentralized metagame would not have 492 pokemon. That's why we have tiers. A centralized metagame has checks and balances like a governement. I currently see very limited checks on certain pokemon, meaning that the metagame is overcentralizing.

Then you lack the power to kill a lot of stuff. No, you outrage the moment their "I can survive everything else" pokemon comes in... you use it as a LAST RESORT MOVE. Note that I also talked about each of those quotes in a previous post, so could you go back and look at them. Thanks. Note you are sacrificing your pokemon to Thuder Wave him, unless you get lucky with Full Paralysis. And Mence has to be killed immediately after, else it's not a threat, so you can't setup on it.

Erm... you ignored my post about the metagama and a pokemon.
I think this more has to do with the post in Lonely Ness's thread, so I am going to post there instead (though obviously not relating to Salamence.

 

[blasphemy1]

Well I am not going to argue against Weavile being able to revenge kill Chomp, as a CB Ice Punch OHKOs even through Yache. However, you must sacrifice atleast one pokemon, and unlike Salamence, Garchomp doesn't need to lock itself into Outrage because it hits bulky waters/grounds plenty hard with a +2 EQ.

On the other hand, Salamence outspeeding Weavile is a futile argument. Salamence can be slowed down by Thunder Wave, unlike Garchomp, and Ice Shards OHKO Salamence anyways.

+2 Fire Fangs 2HKO Skarmory, and with all of the offense around at the time(even more so now), Skarmory wouldn't like all of that damage being soo slow. I would like to see what pokemon in our current metagame couldn't finish off said Skarmory? Shit, even Blissey beats it with Flamethrower, taking Roost recovery into account.

@ Relictivity: What is wrong with sacrificing something to paralyze Salamence? So what if Celebi takes 70%? You can HP Ice it, set up Reflect, or Recover to scout for full paralysis. If people are willing to sacrifice an entire slot specifically to set up Stealth Rock(suicide leads), I think we can all get over the fact that "something is going to die" by Salamence. Remember, a pokemon can only have 4 moves, so saying Draco Meteor pounds faces in on Celebi doesn't really matter, as I can say CB U-Turn on Infernape wrecks Latias. There are plenty of pokemon that take sacrifice to beat. I think people just need to adjust to the new metagame, as countering everything hasn't been possible even before Salamence got Outrage...

 

[Relictivity]

@ Relictivity: What is wrong with sacrificing something to paralyze Salamence? So what if Celebi takes 70%? You can HP Ice it, set up Reflect, or Recover to scout for full paralysis. If people are willing to sacrifice an entire slot specifically to set up Stealth Rock(suicide leads), I think we can all get over the fact that "something is going to die" by Salamence. Remember, a pokemon can only have 4 moves, so saying Draco Meteor pounds faces in on Celebi doesn't really matter, as I can say CB U-Turn on Infernape wrecks Latias. There are plenty of pokemon that take sacrifice to beat. I think people just need to adjust to the new metagame, as countering everything hasn't been possible even before Salamence got Outrage...

What is wrong with sacrificing a pokemon to setup for your revenge kill on Garchomp? Also, people are getting less and less willing to use Suicide leads, thus the rise in Metagross. True, he often explodes, but he usually does more than set up stealth rock beforehand.

My problem is that the current metagame has an over-amount of sacrifice. That sacrifice is covering up how dangerous the threats really are, because you can always "revenge kill".

The truth is though, that OU is a metagame about Counters... without them you are overrun. It's not like that in UU (which is why I like playing it), in UU, there are several possible counters, and the attacker has to THINK about what is the smartest move to make. It's kind of hard to describe... but UU is alot more based on team effects than Counters. OU is the opposite.

 

[Chou Toshio]

^You're right, I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[X-Act]

This thread reinforces my definition of uber, which is:

"An uber Pokemon is a Pokemon that the majority of people do not want in the Standard metagame."

 

[Setrack]

This thread reinforces my definition of uber, which is:

"An uber Pokemon is a Pokemon that the majority of people do not want in the Standard metagame."

"The pokemon community is simply ban happy" colin said something similar to that and I 100 per cent agree.

 

[X-Act]

"The pokemon community is simply ban happy" colin said something similar to that and I 100 per cent agree.

What?! Don't misquote me. I never said that. All I said is that people move Pokemon to uber because they don't want them in the standard metagame.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Nah, you design a suspect system and it becomes "people just want to change the system from what it is."


Deoxys-e: Started in OU --> banned
Garchomp: Started in OU --> banned
Shaymin s: Started from OU play --> banned
Latias: Started from Uber --> was made OU
Latios: Started from Uber --> will probably be coming down to OU.

When ever you go ahead with the test, "Should this not be where it is?" People are going to inherently have a bend towards the change the test is suggesting. >.>

 

[lilyhollow]

What?! Don't misquote me. I never said that. All I said is that people move Pokemon to uber because they don't want them in the standard metagame.

He wasn't quoting you, I think he was saying that your definition of Uber is problematic because (he believes that) the Pokemon community is ban-happy.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Nah, you design a suspect system and it becomes "people just want to change the system from what it is."


Deoxys-e: Started in OU --> banned
Garchomp: Started in OU --> banned
Shaymin s: Started from OU play --> banned
Latias: Started from Uber --> was made OU
Latios: Started from Uber --> will probably be coming down to OU.

When ever you go ahead with the test, "Should this not be where it is?" People are going to inherently have a bend towards the change the test is suggesting. >.>

Just posting to say that Deoxys-E started off in the Uber tier, not OU.

 

[Theorymon]

Nah, you design a suspect system and it becomes "people just want to change the system from what it is."


Deoxys-e: Started in OU --> banned
Garchomp: Started in OU --> banned
Shaymin s: Started from OU play --> banned
Latias: Started from Uber --> was made OU
Latios: Started from Uber --> will probably be coming down to OU.

When ever you go ahead with the test, "Should this not be where it is?" People are going to inherently have a bend towards the change the test is suggesting. >.>

Actually, Wobbuffet was tested in OU, and the majority voted Uber. Although Doexys-e was voted OU at that time, so Wobbuffet may just be the excpetion.

 

[greg3064]

Salamence is nowhere near good enough to be uber. While its attacking capabilities are like a miniature of Rayquaza, it's speed is shit, and its defences are nowhere near as good as they could be. Testing Salamence is a complete waste of time

Barring ExtremeSpeed, Salamence outspeeds Rayquaza.

I voted against making Mence a suspect, though. It's been said that there is no 100% Mence counter, and there isn't. But it's relatively easy to check. Outrage and Dragon Claw lure out Steel-types, which are incredibly common in the OU metagame. Stealth Rock is nearly omnipresent and demolishes Mence from the switch-in. Priority moves are also common and deal significant damage, so even a Mence with some DDs under its belt can be taken out.

In terms of the metagame, yes, Salamence does cause some centralization. My argument, though, would be that it does not overcentralize the metagame. Frankly, it's handled easily enough without taking extraordinary pains to make a team that counters it.

 

[Misa]

Well I am not going to argue against Weavile being able to revenge kill Chomp, as a CB Ice Punch OHKOs even through Yache. However, you must sacrifice atleast one pokemon, and unlike Salamence, Garchomp doesn't need to lock itself into Outrage because it hits bulky waters/grounds plenty hard with a +2 EQ.
This whole sacrifice isn't really necessary, since Weavile can switch into chomp while he's SDing and threaten an OHKO. Not a problem. This method faces major problems against choice sets though.

On the other hand, Salamence outspeeding Weavile is a futile argument. Salamence can be slowed down by Thunder Wave, unlike Garchomp, and Ice Shards OHKO Salamence anyways.
If my calculations are correct, Salamence should be able to survive an ice shard if he's equipped with Yache berry.