UU Sunny Day

[MagicMaster87]

Alright, this is my first time using a Sunny Day team ever in any tier, but it's been serving me rather well. I wish Crobat were still around for me to use with it, but hopefully I'll be able to reach the 1650/65 requirements soon. Anyways, I've been having a bit of trouble with certain Pokemon, so hopefully the smogon community can cure what ails this team.

TEAM AT A GLANCE

@ Lum Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 192 HP/64 Spd/252 SAtk
Rash nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
- Sunny Day
- Solarbeam
- Extremespeed
- Fire Blast

This is Legacy Rider's Anti-Lead Arcanine, except modified to fit the team better. Sunnybeam works tremendously well, especially if I Sunny Day as they switch in their Water-type "counter", but it's bulky enough to survive a Surf or two if I need to Sunny Day after they're already in. The only problem I've noticed is that Extremespeed is rather weak now, but I'm not sure how to remedy this. I've considered switching the EVs to ATK and using Flare Blitz over Fire Blast, but then Solarbeam misses out on several O-/2-HKOs.
---

@ Heat Rock
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SDef
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Sunny Day
- Light Screen
- U-turn

My second Sunny Day set-upper, as well as my Stealth Rocker. Uxie is simply amazing, I am constantly surprised by the amount of beatings it can take before finally going down. Anyways, the plan is simple. Set up Rocks, Light Screen, and Sunny Day (usually in that order), then U-Turn to the appropriate Pokemon. I've finally found a solution to my Yawn/T.Wave choice problem, and that is to use neither. Light Screen has been a tremendous help as most of my Pokemon have lower SDef than Def (Arcanine, Victreebel, and Tangrowth all have -SDef natures), including Uxie itself. The lack of status on the opposing team hasn't really been missed.
---

@ Choice Scarf
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Leaf Storm
- Sludge Bomb
- Weather Ball
- Sleep Powder

My current replacement for Victreebel. CS Roserade was added for a very specific purpose: to get rid of Shaymin. Of course, that's not all I have it doing. It can take out certain other Pokemon (although I can't remember what they are at this moment... damn you lack of sleep!) and it provides a fast Sleep to take out Pokemon that I can't handle right that moment. I wish it were a bit faster or physically durable, though, as it can't really counter Swift Swim and certain other Pokemon (that I also can't remember at this moment) all that well due to its physical frailty, but you can't have everything, I suppose.
---

@ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk/34 Def/224 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Sunny Day
- Power Whip
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide

My second Sunny Day sweeper, this one purely physical. Tangrowth has been a mixed blessing at times, mostly due to the lower accuracy of Power Whip and Rock Slide. Still, its physical bulk and different mix of moves is sorely needed, as it's equipped to take out several specific threats. Earthquake is mostly to take out Blaziken (obviously only with Sun), while Rock Slide is to one-shot Moltres and Charizard if they're not behind a Sub. That's not to say that these moves aren't useful elsewhere, just that without them I would have a much harder time getting rid of these threats. Sunny Day has now replaced Swords Dance on Tangrowth because I rarely ever find the time to Dance up anyways, plus Tangrowth's natural bulk means it can set it up more reliably than Exeggutor can.
---

@ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 Atk/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Rash nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
- Solarbeam
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire/Ice]
- Explosion

Exeggutor is my special-based Sunny Day sweeper, although it no longer sets up Sunny Day itself. It has two very useful STAB types in Grass and Psychic, and with Sunny Day to bolster Solarbeam it can dish out plenty of damage. I've been thinking about using Choice Specs in place of Life Orb to guarantee the OHKO on 4/0 Shaymin with HP Fire under Sun, but I don't like the idea of being forced to switch out after basically every attack. I've already got two Choice users as well...
---

@ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 248 HP/252 Atk/8 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Superpower
- Ice Punch
- Aqua Jet
- Return

Choice Band Azumarill is a fucking BEAST. Even a weak move such as Aqua Jet hurts those without super defenses or 4x resist when coming off of 654 ATK. Superpower is a superb move for Azumarill, seeing as Choice Band often forces it to switch out after only one or two attacks anyways. Ice Punch is mainly to take out predicted Roserade and Shaymin switch-ins, both of which are OHKO'd if Rocks are down (except possibly bulky Shaymin), but it also helps me take down Pokemon such as Swellow (who always fails to OHKO with Facade even after Rocks) and Honchkrow (who is a royal pain in the butt at times). Aqua Jet helps me take down some extremely problematic Pokemon such as Moltres, Charizard, and Mismagius, although the power drop from Waterfall means it can no longer defeat Spiritomb, as Ice Punch fails to 2HKO; a fair trade-off IMO though.
---


THREATS LIST

• Moltres - If this one is leading, I am often vastly screwed (if not using Aqua Jet on Azumarill, that is). Arcanine's Extremespeed isn't strong enough to break its subs in a single hit, while nothing is a safe switch-in (without Aqua Jet, Azumarill gets Toxic Stalled before Moltres runs out of subs, and everything else dies to Flamethrower). The random Specs set isn't nearly as bad, but Air Slash 2HKOs everything on my team, so I have to sacrifice something in order to let Azumarill switch in safely.
• Houndoom - This thing walls so much of my team it's not even funny. Dark Pulse will 2HKO everything on my team as well, IIRC, so I'm usually forced to sacrifice Uxie or Arcanine to set up Sunny Day and bring in Tangrowth or sacrifice anything to switch Azumarill in safely. Otherwise, I have to hope Sun is already up and go boom with Exeggutor.
• Spiritomb - Only two Pokemon on my team have the power to take this thing down in two hits: Arcanine and Tangrowth, and the former only works if Spiritomb hasn't gotten any Calm Minds in. Both need to use their somewhat-inaccurate STAB moves to do the job, however, and neither is very specially-bulky. Status doesn't even work either, since most Spiritombs I've seen run RestTalk.

POSSIBLE TEAM ADDITIONS

/

@ Life Orb
Naughty, Chlorophyll
252 ATK / 60 SPE / 196 SATK (for Shiftry)
252 ATK / 140 SPE / 116 SATK (for Victreebel)
- Swords Dance
- Seed Bomb/Leaf Blade
- Sucker Punch
- HP Fire

Before I had Roserade, I was using one of these two Chlorophyll sweepers. They both performed very well, although I rarely ever found the time to Swords Dance. Shiftry had slightly lower ATK and a weaker Grass move, but it got STAB on Sucker Punch and resisted the types of moves that were usually aimed at Uxie, which were its biggest advantages over Victreebel. I can see myself possibly using one or the other again, perhaps over Exeggutor this time, though...

@ Leftovers/Heat Rock
Timid, Leaf Guard
188 DEF / 68 SDEF / 252 SPE
- Encore
- Leech Seed
- Sleep Powder
- Sunny Day

This is a status-absorbing set I used for a while in place of Chansey. The main goal was to counter lead Stall Moltres (or basically anything that tries to status my Pokemon during Sun) while also providing sleep and healing support. I also included Sunny Day to ensure that it could indefinitely stall out my opponent from their status moves if they are foolish enough to stay in and let Leech Seed drain their HP. I had many problems with random Scarf Pokemon, however, so I eventually scrapped this for Exeggutor. I'd like to try it out again if possible, but I doubt it'll have a place in the team again.
​

 

[Falkner12]

small thing--i'm positive that Chansey cannot get Wish AND heal bell/aromatherapy. Otherwise this would be an almost standard set. You're going to need to decide between wish passing and curing team status.

 

[MagicMaster87]

small thing--i'm positive that Chansey cannot get Wish AND heal bell/aromatherapy. Otherwise this would be an almost standard set. You're going to need to decide between wish passing and curing team status.

Ugh, you're kidding me... Shoddy listed Wish as a Level Up move and didn't stop me from choosing both... And nobody's called me out on it either. :( *sigh* Guess I'll have to decide tomorrow...

 

[Matthew]

Tangrowth is an amazing Mixed Sweeper in the sun, I would suggest using this set:

@ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 38 SpAtk/220 Spd/252 Atk
Naive nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Power Whip
- Hidden Power [FIRE]

This set will rip through team that are unprepared. Also Chansey isn't doing a whole lot for your team. This is better as you only have one Sun abuser on your team, I would suggest having at least two.

 

[MagicMaster87]

@Gen. Empoleon: Tangrowth is another possibility. I do have a second Sun abuser in Arcanine (even though it doesn't need it as much as Shiftry/Victreebel/Tangrowth, boosted Fire Blast and instant Solarbeam are very useful indeed), and I don't really feel like Chansey "isn't doing a whole lot" for my team. Still, I suppose I might as well give it a shot, especially since Chansey's usefulness was just neutured...

@hhjj: I haven't seen any Hypnos or Grumpigs, actually... But more importantly, how is Houndoom supposed to abuse Solarbeam without Sunny Day?

 

[Colloquy]

Uh, this doesn't really look like a Sunny Day team, at all. Sunny Day teams normally have 2-3 set-up Pokemon, and 3-4 sweepers that can take advantage of it. Your team looks like a defensive team, as you only have one sweeper to take advantage of the sun.

As Gen. Empoleon said, Tangrowth would help this team. After a Swords Dance, nearly everything is going down. HP Fire is not really needed, though, as other Steel-types die to Earthquake. If you're worried about Grass-types, you could add Return, which will hurt most of them really badly. Adding this over Claydol could help.

Chansey seems wierd on this team, but I guess Heal Bell helps if you can't predict. This team doesn't need a Wish-passer, though, especially if you aren't going all defensive like before. Other Heal Bell users that could be viable are Miltank and Chimecho, who actually have something in the form of offense.

This team is just way too defensive to be a good Sunny Day team.

 

[MagicMaster87]

@Katherine: So just because it's not like every other Sunny Day team out there, it's not good? That doesn't seem like a very good way to think to me. I'm a defensive player at heart (and not just in Pokemon either), so all-out offense has never worked for me. I've always had the best success running a mix of offense and defense on my teams, and I see no reason to change that now simply to follow the norm.

I'm going to be trying out Tangrowth if both Wish-only and Aromatherapy-only Chansey doesn't work for me (which I suspect will be the case). Would Poison Jab be a possible alternative to Return, though? Hits Grass-types harder. I assume if I run this, I should use a Jolly nature and perhaps move the SAtk EVs to HP?

 

[Matthew]

If you remove the Special Attack Evs and change them to HP. The Evs I listed allow Tangrowth to out run a Timid Scarf Heatran, while under sun.

 

[MagicMaster87]

If you remove the Special Attack Evs and change them to HP. The Evs I listed allow Tangrowth to out run a Timid Scarf Heatran, while under sun.

I know what the Speed EVs outspeed, since Shiftry and Victreebel run the same amount of Speed. :P But what do you mean by the first sentence? It seems like you just cut off... If I change the SAtk EVs to HP EVs, then what?

 

[LuistheNinja]

Well I have used Sunny Day in the past and it owkred wonders for me (Note: only on the UU tier). Anyways, I worked with a nice lead:

Jumpluff @ Heat Rock/Wide Lens
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP/252 Spd/4 Atk
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Sleep Powder
- Sunny Day
- U-Turn
- Leech Seed/Memento/Reflect
Well it does some support for the team since it has some sleep support which seems you dont have at all, then he puts the Sun up, U-Turn into a counter or suicide with Memento lowering your opponents chances of sweeping, or Reflect to aid other memembers you coudl also choose Toxic for a double status moveset.
The decision between the items is deciding if you want to raise Sleep Powder's accuracy, making the Sun last longer or Focus Sash to be sure about setting the Sun. (When the sun is in effect Jumpluff's Chlorophyll will dobule its speed so Jumpluff can outspeed about everything even with a CS.)

Anyways, I dont find claydol and Shiftry of use to the team. I would change Shiftry for the sweeper I used for my UU Sunny Day team.

Exeggcutor @ Life Orb/Petaya Berry
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 Atk/252 SpAtk/252 Spd
Mild nature (+SpAtk, -Def)
- SolarBeam
- HP [Fire]
- Psychic
- Explotion

So, with Chlorophyll Exeggcutor becomes a fast sweeper hitting for 416 Speed outrunning base 130 Pokemon and some CS'ed Revenge killers. The moves are Standard SolarBeam coming from a total of 383 SpAtk and STAB hits hard to everything that doesnt resist it. HP Fire takes advantage of the Sun and hits Steel types who resist Grass for SE damage. Psychic is somehwat fo a filler since it is your Second STAB move to hit all those Fire pokemon that resist HP and SolarBeam. On the final slot you have Explotion, once you are about to die or that the light of going to end you Explote hopefully taking one pokemon down (if you are lucky enough maybe a Chansey).

 

[Sebastien Loeb]

I have used a lot in passed the Sunny Day team and I think about knowing merits of it and defects, you have only a Clorophyller it is this it is a disadvantage, for personal experience I would give Focus Sash to Shiftry and therefore I would remove Life Orb, I don't sincerely see then an utility of that Claydol, if you will decide to insert Focus Sash to Shiftry, you make Claydol Rapid Spinner.

 

[joshaka1]

i think you would do better using just t wave so u wont worry about breaking sleep clause and u would get a upperhand on scarf pokemon and if u do tht u might just be able to use just e quake tht scarfers are out the way
gl wit ur team =]

 

[MagicMaster87]

@ hhjj: Sorry, but I will not ever use Hypnosis, the accuracy is way too low for my taste. Even if it were 70%, I still wouldn't be too happy about using it. I do like that Tangrowth set better than the one Gen. Empoleon posted (although the differences aren't that big).

@ LuistheNinja: Uxie actually has Yawn, so I'm not completely devoid of sleep support. Arcanine has actually been working very well for me, so I don't think I'll be switching it out, but I do like the look of that Jumpluff. Exeggutor is also a possibility. If I don't like Victreebel, I can try that afterwards.

@ Sebastien: I'm afraid I don't fully understand what you're saying... All I got from it is that you want me to put Focus Sash on Shiftry so Claydol actually has a use, but I won't be doing that.

 

[Ekko]

If you want to have both Wish support and Aromatherapy, you can make a couple of easy changes to the team and have both.

If you drop Stealth Rock on Uxie and give it to Claydol, then you have (better) Wish support and can have Aromatherapy/Heal Bell on Chansey.

Also, you could replace Hariyama with Torterra, who learns Stone Edge (unless I'm very mistaken).

 

[MagicMaster87]

joshaka: Sleep Clause usually isn't a problem for me, as Yawn tends to force switches more than it sleeps something.

Ekko: I suppose I could do that with Uxie and Claydol, but Calm Mind has just been so useful... I don't see much reason to run Torterra in Hariyama's place, though, as Torterra can't take a hit from Charizard, Moltres, or Blaziken, which is the reason I'm running Hariyama in the first place.

 

[MagicMaster87]

Have you decided on Victreebel over Shiftry, and Tangrowth over Claydol?

Well, I don't know if it was just a streak of bad luck, but I tested Victreebel and Azumarill and my rating plummeted. I didn't want to double post, but nobody else posted for a while, so I decided to try out different teams. I suppose I should've tried out Tangrowth, but I was a little discouraged. >_> I'll need to rebuild my team since I'm using a different computer, but I suppose now's as good a time as any to try out Tangrowth.

 

[MagicMaster87]

Yeah, I think with Tangrowth, it will be a nice replacement for carrying EQ, and able to take some Physical attacks. Claydol will be held back by its abundance of weaknesses.

As for replacing Shiftry, perhaps just use a Belly Drum Charizard. If you make its HP ivs 23 so that it gets to 1 HP after 2 Substitutes. This is better than setting its HP ivs to 30 (296 HP) because then it can't Belly Drum if it comes in on Stealth Rock.

Overall, using Charizard can be almost like using a Cholorphyll Sweeper, simply use it to set-up its attack and speed and Blaze with Belly Drum and Substitute. It can come in on Earthquake (aimed at Arcanine which is your lead), and set up Substitute. Additionally, if Sunny Day and Blaze are activated, (even without belly Drum) Fire Punch becomes 253 Base Power.

Bellyzard, two attacks
Salac Berry Adamant / Jolly
Moveset IVs
~ Belly Drum
~ Fire Punch
~ Earthquake
~ Substitute
23 HP IVs
EVs
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
The strategy here is to come in on something Charizard scares, and use Substitute as it switches out. Then Belly Drum on whatever they bring in as they break your Substitute. Your Salac will activate after 2 Substitutes, as Belly Drum + Substitute + Substitute brings you to 1 HP. You now have +6 Attack, Blaze activated, and +1 Speed, which should allow you to sweep.

The IVs given are for Substitute, as they put your HP to 289, incase you switch into Stealth Rock (removing 50% of your HP) allowing you to use Substitute and Belly Drum and activate a Salac right then, otherwise if you don't run into Stealth Rock, you would need to use Substitute two times after Belly Drum to take your HP to 1 and activate Blaze and Salac Berry.

Just wondering, why can't I just leave it at 31 HP IVs? Wouldn't that give me 297 HP (since you said 30 gives 296), thus also leaving me at 1HP? Also, if Charizard runs into Stealth Rock, it can't both Sub and Belly Drum. Subbing will bring it under 50%, thus preventing it from using Belly Drum anyways.

Anyways, thanks for the set, but I'm not too keen about it. Victreebel works well enough, I just seem to have problems switching it in from Uxie, since it attracts a lot of Ghost and Dark attacks, which Shiftry didn't have problems with. I'm thinking about possibly putting Shiftry back for that reason alone... I'm also thinking about trying out Leaf Guard Jumpluff in place of Chansey. It gives me the perfect status absorber while under the sun, and can rape opponents that try to stay in with Encore or Sleep Powder.

*EDIT*
I gave Tangrowth and Jumpluff a shot (over Claydol and Chansey, respectively) and edited Azumarill's moveset a bit, and most of the changes has been simply awesome. Not too sure about Jumpluff, though... I've been running Encore/Sunny Day/Sleep Powder/Leech Seed with Leftovers, but I think I might switch to a Heat Rock and possibly drop Encore for HP Flying... Or maybe I'll even get rid of Jumpluff entirely for Exeggutor; I feel like my team is too physical-based at the moment. I'm gonna test it a bit more before editing the OP with the changes, though. Spikes are a bit annoying, though...

 

[MagicMaster87]

Alright, I've made a lot of changes to my team since I last edited the OP. In short, I've swapped Shiftry, Hariyama, Chansey, and Claydol for Victreebel, Tangrowth, Exeggutor, and Azumarill. Threats List and Possible Team Pokemon have been largely updated as well.

 

[Scepticallistic]

Super minor nitpick: Victreebel can get Leaf Blade, which is slightly stronger than Seed Bomb. The Shiftry in your possible additions section has Leaf Blade, but it can't learn it and instead has to resort to Seed Bomb. You've got it backwards. :P

 

[MagicMaster87]

Super minor nitpick: Victreebel can get Leaf Blade, which is slightly stronger than Seed Bomb. The Shiftry in your possible additions section has Leaf Blade, but it can't learn it and instead has to resort to Seed Bomb. You've got it backwards. :P

Whoops, that's what I get for being lazy and just editing the pictures and descriptions. Will fix in a sec.

 

[Kalec]

For Azumarril, try running aqua jet as your STAB, and use return for your reliable move. Jet is good enough for anything susceptible to water, while return hits almost everything very, very hard which takes a lot of the guesswork out of the choice band.

 

[MagicMaster87]

For Azumarril, try running aqua jet as your STAB, and use return for your reliable move. Jet is good enough for anything susceptible to water, while return hits almost everything very, very hard which takes a lot of the guesswork out of the choice band.

I suppose I could try that as well, I'm just worried about Aqua Jet's low base power. Even with STAB, it won't be OHKO-ing anything except the 4x weak or physically frail...

 

[Relictivity]

OK, I know you said you could deal with SubSeed Shaymin with Exeggutor... but it really can't. It's because Shaymin Subs before it Leech Seeds, meaning explosion is useless, and you will get 2HKOd. There isn't really any way you can get around this though :/.

Hmm... Victreebel won't be taking too many hits though... why don't you replace that? I would suggest either a Roserade or a Mantine. Altaria would have been good... but we don't want SubSeed HP Ice/Earth Power Shaymin (I run one of these) to go straight though your team.

Roserade doesn't have a bug weakness, gains a fire move through Weather Ball (to bad no stab like Sludge Bomb, but better typing), along with some other moves that might be useful. No Speed boost from Clorophyll, but it works better than Victreebel I would hope.

Mantine on the other hand works as an awsome Special Wall to compliment Tanengrowth. Both Swift Swim and Water Absorb will be useful, but I think because of the plethora of grass types on your team, Swift Swim will be more useful. You will still have trouble with Swift Swimmed Kabutops though, as it does not outspeed an 1HKOs with Stone Edge. Mantine will act as a good switch in to all of those pokemon you are having problems with though, so perhaps you should use him.

If you want to keep the Chlorophyll user... just keep Victeebel then.

Hope I helped.

 

[locopoke]

I don't think having a Pokemon such as Azumarill on a Sunny Day team is too wise. Sunny Day cuts Water's power in half. If you want a priority move then try Ambipom. Also switch Uxie with Arcanine as your lead, I just think it works better that way.

 

[MagicMaster87]

OK, I know you said you could deal with SubSeed Shaymin with Exeggutor... but it really can't. It's because Shaymin Subs before it Leech Seeds, meaning explosion is useless, and you will get 2HKOd. There isn't really any way you can get around this though :/.

2HKO'd by what? If Shaymin runs Seed Flare/Earth Power, both Tangrowth and Exeggutor take lol damage from its attacks. If it runs HP Ice or Air Slash over either move, Exeggutor will switch in on Sub, survive an Air Slash/HP Ice as Psychic breaks the Sub, and then it dies from Explosion (since Exeggutor outspeeds in the Sun).

Hmm... Victreebel won't be taking too many hits though... why don't you replace that? I would suggest either a Roserade or a Mantine. Altaria would have been good... but we don't want SubSeed HP Ice/Earth Power Shaymin (I run one of these) to go straight though your team.

It shouldn't be taking that many hits to begin with. Grass + Fire hits everything but Fire or Dragon types neutrally, and Sucker Punch hits both of those (as well as other priority users). I don't see how Roserade would help against SubSeed Shaymin since it gets hit by HP Ice as well. Mantine, perhaps, but I don't want to be too weak to SR, it's annoying enough as it is (especially if Spikes get up...).

Roserade doesn't have a bug weakness, gains a fire move through Weather Ball (to bad no stab like Sludge Bomb, but better typing), along with some other moves that might be useful. No Speed boost from Clorophyll, but it works better than Victreebel I would hope.

Er, I've seen Roserade with Sludge Bomb before... Also, Roserade has the same exact typing as Victreebel. It also lacks a priority move to replace Sucker Punch. I suppose Natural Cure could be useful and Weather Ball would be very nice... Perhaps a Scarf version would work.

Mantine on the other hand works as an awsome Special Wall to compliment Tanengrowth. Both Swift Swim and Water Absorb will be useful, but I think because of the plethora of grass types on your team, Swift Swim will be more useful. You will still have trouble with Swift Swimmed Kabutops though, as it does not outspeed an 1HKOs with Stone Edge. Mantine will act as a good switch in to all of those pokemon you are having problems with though, so perhaps you should use him.

I suppose Mantine could work as well, although I'd rather not have another Pokemon weak to SR without a Spinner on the team... Kabutops hasn't been too huge of a problem, actually, although Ludicolo has been... Perhaps I could look into it as well, although I'm not as optimistic as with Roserade.

I don't think having a Pokemon such as Azumarill on a Sunny Day team is too wise. Sunny Day cuts Water's power in half. If you want a priority move then try Ambipom. Also switch Uxie with Arcanine as your lead, I just think it works better that way.

I rarely need to use Azumarill's Waterfall once Sunny Day is set up, though. If Sunny Day is set up, everything I would hit with it is taken care of by Tangrowth; Earthquake hits Fires and Rocks, while Power Whip will destroy Ground and Rock types.

Also, I don't like the idea of Uxie as a lead Pokemon because it loses to so many leads out there. Roserade beats it, Moltres beats it, Ambipom beats it... Arcanine really is one of the best leads I have ever used, and I don't plan on changing it until Crobat becomes UU again (and maybe even then I won't use it).