Being set up fodder after using an attack is really bad.
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NU Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Stagnant
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Being set up fodder after using an attack is really bad.
It's solid, but giving free turns in metagame like this with Ursaring, Rhydon, Linoone and another deadly sweepers means probably GG in some moments, especially mid-game or late-game. So really, to use Slaking you need to support it a bit too much for some people.
I agree that Salac Linoone looks like the most dangerous sweeper in this metagame, but still it has... counters like Defensive Metang or Bronzor (lol :D), maybe Gligar (?) or ironically things like Aggron, Probopass and Bastiodon are viable again in countering it as they can handle one Seed Bomb if EVd correctly and finish it of back, when previously they disliked taking Rock Smash from it (because running something like Dig was at best gimmick). Or strange things like CB Sucker Punch Banette. But I still think that is a bit too much in my opinion. It was hard to deal in UU (fortunately, it wasn't often). And before you say that Scarfers handles it - tell me how things like Floatzel or Manectric can take +6 Extremespeed, which many BellyLinoones carry with it ? Also I'm afraid of things like Cradily or Shuckle being ridiculously hard to deal with under weather. I'm still surprised not seeing them (I mean Hippotas and Snover) being limbo under the same support category like Abomasnow.
Yeah, I see dragons here being much more threatening with also much slower pokemon. DDDragonair doesn't look that bad with solid 70 speed to work here and no glaring x4 weakness (and it has 14 points higher attack to work with then Altaria). Or even that strange DDShelgon doesn't look that bad being bulkier then Dragonair. With some spikes support it may be really interesting. But to be honest I don't see many good spikers, so it's another problem here.
I need to test soon this NU metagame, as it looks quite interesting with all those sickly powerful attackers and some sick walls to defend against them. I see it working similar to Ubers tiers, when one mistake may be really bad for you, which makes it even more appealing for me. And probably that's another reason for NOT using Slaking. Anyway, it's time to built a new team ;). And...
I applause for the same ;).
/Applause
That's what I was saying, this Metagame should be a game with 4 Tiers: Uber (Banlist), OU, BL (Banlist), UU, LU and NU, or before (Uber (Banlist), OU, BL, UU, NU). When BL was supposed to be a banlist but actually turned out to be something other than a banlist, everything worked quite well...
It's quite absurd to squeeze what should be in 4 tiers into 3: OU, UU, NU
This does look like being a very interesting tier. I think it will be quite an offensive one, looking at the names mentioned (Rampardos, Pinsir, Linoone, Tauros, Ursaring, etc.). Weather could also be a big player - auto-Hail and auto-Sand are both available, and there are some very good Sun and Rain abusers here as well. Golduck might, therefore, see a fair bit of use.
Gonna start using a Sub + CM Drifblim with Petaya berry.
Works almost exactly the same as Mismagius in UU, only it takes physical attacks much better. Unburden means it get's +2 speed, so it beats a lot. And you're almost guaranteed at least +2 SpAtk, +1 SpDef and +2 Spd, meaning you can sweep with perfect coverage.
Due to the large number of Normal type attackers (Slaking, Ursaring, Granbull, Zangoose etc), Drifblim should easily switch in and set up on CB Return or EQ.
Need to find a NU Ambipom/Scizor though, to scout out the enemy team.
God I love all the work that you have to put in to making a team for such a diverse metagame, absolutely huge tier.
If everyone starts using stall etc with Hail then that might turn a little gamebreaking, and SS with Cradily and Shuckle would be crazy.
Though, this is all theory, so I've yet to test it yet.
Works almost exactly the same as Mismagius in UU, only it takes physical attacks much better. Unburden means it get's +2 speed, so it beats a lot. And you're almost guaranteed at least +2 SpAtk, +1 SpDef and +2 Spd, meaning you can sweep with perfect coverage.
Due to the large number of Normal type attackers (Slaking, Ursaring, Granbull, Zangoose etc), Drifblim should easily switch in and set up on CB Return or EQ.
Need to find a NU Ambipom/Scizor though, to scout out the enemy team.
God I love all the work that you have to put in to making a team for such a diverse metagame, absolutely huge tier.
If everyone starts using stall etc with Hail then that might turn a little gamebreaking, and SS with Cradily and Shuckle would be crazy.
Though, this is all theory, so I've yet to test it yet.
I think Trapinch will become a huge asset as a Steel eliminator in NU, especially BD Linoone teams. Strangely enough I'm thinking of Scarf Trapinch.
With Adamant, 252 Spe it can outspeed up to 0-EV base 70s, meaning it comes in on all three Rock/Steels and OHKOs if they aren't behind a Substitute or Magnet Rise.
Max/max Mawile and max/max Metang are easily put into Linoone ExtremeSpeed range by a single EQ.
Wormadam-S will probably be taking at least 2 EQs, since it can't do much to Trapinch, also putting it into Linoone kill range if not killing it off altogether.
Magneton will probably be scarfed and stuck into T-bolt at some point, meaning easy pickings for Trapinch, and if not, 4/0 Magneton is outsped and KO'd by Linoone's Return. Defensive Maggie is a silly idea that no one will use.
Max/max Bronzor takes 60.38% - 71.38% from Return and is sometimes 2HKO'd by ES as well, so while it can revenge kill with Explosion maybe (if Linoone has no Reflect up), it cannot switch in on an attack.
Cradily and Armaldo are the only other things that can revenge kill Linoone, and they have to be defensively EV'd and in peak condition, especially with rocks on the field. Drifblim can revenge too if Linoone doesn't carry Shadow Claw. Everything else is utterly swept.
With Adamant, 252 Spe it can outspeed up to 0-EV base 70s, meaning it comes in on all three Rock/Steels and OHKOs if they aren't behind a Substitute or Magnet Rise.
Max/max Mawile and max/max Metang are easily put into Linoone ExtremeSpeed range by a single EQ.
Wormadam-S will probably be taking at least 2 EQs, since it can't do much to Trapinch, also putting it into Linoone kill range if not killing it off altogether.
Magneton will probably be scarfed and stuck into T-bolt at some point, meaning easy pickings for Trapinch, and if not, 4/0 Magneton is outsped and KO'd by Linoone's Return. Defensive Maggie is a silly idea that no one will use.
Max/max Bronzor takes 60.38% - 71.38% from Return and is sometimes 2HKO'd by ES as well, so while it can revenge kill with Explosion maybe (if Linoone has no Reflect up), it cannot switch in on an attack.
Cradily and Armaldo are the only other things that can revenge kill Linoone, and they have to be defensively EV'd and in peak condition, especially with rocks on the field. Drifblim can revenge too if Linoone doesn't carry Shadow Claw. Everything else is utterly swept.
Scarf Hitmonchan can hit 276 Speed, outspeeding Linoone after the Salac boost and can hit him with Mach Punch so that Extremespeed doesn't beat him out.
With the Iron Fist boost he does a minimum of 66% or something (took down the calc), so after a BD Hitmonchan can kill him.
Though that does require revenge killing. Other than that, Linoone looks pretty set :(
Shame how you need a Scarf, Jolly nature and a Priority move to beat one 'mon.
Though in fact, if Linoone start going over 136 Speed EVs they can still outspeed Hitmonchan :(
With the Iron Fist boost he does a minimum of 66% or something (took down the calc), so after a BD Hitmonchan can kill him.
Though that does require revenge killing. Other than that, Linoone looks pretty set :(
Shame how you need a Scarf, Jolly nature and a Priority move to beat one 'mon.
Though in fact, if Linoone start going over 136 Speed EVs they can still outspeed Hitmonchan :(
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's nothing BD Linoone can do to Aggron. It takes laughable damage from ES, won't take a whole lot from Seed Bomb, and it can Quake Linoone if it tries to Dig. On the off chance you switch in on a Dig turn, you can swap to a ground immune. In fact, it seems Aggron can switch into Linoone without a second thought in every situation. Addtionally, Drifblim should be able to handle versions without Shadow Claw, as it resists Seed Bomb and is immune to Dig and ES.
If you're using Aggron, Shed Shell is probably wise, to avoid Magneton and Trapinch.
If you're using Aggron, Shed Shell is probably wise, to avoid Magneton and Trapinch.
About all this talk on Linoone. The fact remains that, even if you do manage to get rid of the opponent's Steel types / Cradily / Armaldo / Bibarel etc, you still have to work hard to get the setup turn required to achieve a full sweep. Linoone teams have been around for a long time, so this fact is nothing new.
On a slightly related note, I'm certainly going to look into the viability of Wormadam-S in NU once I get the time to start building teams and trying them out. Being the only Dragon resist not weak to Earthquake that is not either completely inept at attacking (Bronzor) or screwed over by entry hazards / weather (Shedinja) might actually be worth something in this new metagame. Wormadam was a bit of a joke in the old UU, but it got a bundle of decent offensive options in Platinum, including priority in Sucker Punch, as well as Endeavor and Magnet Rise. It can also at least scout for whether said Dragons are packing Flamethrower / Fire Blast in their movepool without necessarily being killed.
It also looks like this new metagame presents a opportunity for Dusclops to finally shine, being the only bulky Ghost left. It is hard-pressed to deal with Linoone though, with Sucker Punch being rather weak unSTAB'd off 70 base Attack unless Choice Banded. TrickBand could still be viable I guess without necessarily being an overspecialized gimmick. Then there's Sableye who has STAB and slightly better Attack, but who would use it when it's so badly outclassed statistically by Dusclops? To the point where the lack of weaknesses can't make up for it.
On a slightly related note, I'm certainly going to look into the viability of Wormadam-S in NU once I get the time to start building teams and trying them out. Being the only Dragon resist not weak to Earthquake that is not either completely inept at attacking (Bronzor) or screwed over by entry hazards / weather (Shedinja) might actually be worth something in this new metagame. Wormadam was a bit of a joke in the old UU, but it got a bundle of decent offensive options in Platinum, including priority in Sucker Punch, as well as Endeavor and Magnet Rise. It can also at least scout for whether said Dragons are packing Flamethrower / Fire Blast in their movepool without necessarily being killed.
It also looks like this new metagame presents a opportunity for Dusclops to finally shine, being the only bulky Ghost left. It is hard-pressed to deal with Linoone though, with Sucker Punch being rather weak unSTAB'd off 70 base Attack unless Choice Banded. TrickBand could still be viable I guess without necessarily being an overspecialized gimmick. Then there's Sableye who has STAB and slightly better Attack, but who would use it when it's so badly outclassed statistically by Dusclops? To the point where the lack of weaknesses can't make up for it.
Most of times you're going to switch in on Belly Drum, so you can stop it without taking hit. But having only 2x attack is rather meh, so you really need Explosion to finish it off. As last resort it may work.
I just made some calculation on Libelldra Forge Calculator, because you made me curious Steinhauser about not mentioning Aggron in section counter ;). Aggron DOES stop Linoone without Rock Smash. Calculation for Seed Bomb on Max/Max Aggron:
31,10% -> 36.92% - With Leftovers there's a chance for not being even 3OHKOed. And Aggron also learns T-Wave so you may even run much more offensive spread, paralyse it and finish it off with one of your moves.
Next is... Probopass. Max/Max One.
39,20% -> 46,30% - Even without Leftovers it's not 2OHKOed. But running Physically Defensive Probopass is strange, so I don't think it's worth it and Aggron outclasses it with the same typing and EVs spread. Situation with Bastiodon looks really similar.
Armaldo idea is interesting, so I'll test it. And not being weak against trappers like Magneton or Trapinch is another selling point.
Wow I remember when shoddy first came out one of the teams I used was built around Luna Jynx. It had Tauros, Noctowl and Jynx and I can't remember what else I wish I could find it. Now those three are NU. It actually worked pretty well in OU too.
Anecdote aside, NU seems intresting. It also seems crazily unbalanced. Entei, Tauros, Kingler, Ursaring, Medicham, Linoone, etc seem crazy strong for this metagame. However Hypno, Gastrodon, Grumpig, Regice, Slowking and various steels are pretty good walls. I feel like this metagame will become too highly centralized. If pokes like these are going to stay NU I really think we will need to make another, or even multiple tiers lower than this.
Then again I haven't played this and it will take a while before we can know for sure.
Anecdote aside, NU seems intresting. It also seems crazily unbalanced. Entei, Tauros, Kingler, Ursaring, Medicham, Linoone, etc seem crazy strong for this metagame. However Hypno, Gastrodon, Grumpig, Regice, Slowking and various steels are pretty good walls. I feel like this metagame will become too highly centralized. If pokes like these are going to stay NU I really think we will need to make another, or even multiple tiers lower than this.
Then again I haven't played this and it will take a while before we can know for sure.
Looks like Luvdisc can beat something now.
This is so unbelievably unbalanced. Linoone is practically invincible, gabite can shine with the same set chomp used to run, marowak, tauros, medicham, shuckle, relicanth, slaking (Scarf giga impact slaking kills almost everything in this metagame in one hit), glaceon, snover, cradily, armaldo. This is going to be more centralized than OU. It's going to be all weather, and then one of twenty-thirty star pokemon that EASILY shined in OU. Encore Toxic shuckle, Stallrein. Come on, I've beaten garchomp with stallrein and now he's in NU?
There are not many options in this tier at all, and once again it's going to be dominated by weather. Cradily+Shuckle, Glaceon+Stallrein. Not fun.
There are not many options in this tier at all, and once again it's going to be dominated by weather. Cradily+Shuckle, Glaceon+Stallrein. Not fun.
Okay, I think there may be a problem with some psychological hangups over the name "NU." First of all, making BL into a ban-tier as opposed to the position it had in Gens 1-3 nominally eliminated an entire "BL Metagame" that sort of perpetually hovered between existence and non-existence. Now add to that the fact that DPP has the largest pool of usable Pokemon of any generation yet, and what do you get? You get an "NU" tier that doesn't really look like any previous NU tier, a tier full of would-be powerhouses like Rampardos, Pinsir and Slaking, neglected legendaries like Articuno and Entei, powerful NFEs like Kadabra, Rhydon and Dusclops and a whole host of formidable things.
People always point to the extremes, the Luvdiscs and Unowns of the world, but really, I can see tons of "true NU" pokemon not getting much use in this new tier, when you just look at the sheer volume of Pokemon dumped into the tier and then add in a large number of viable NFEs, like the ones listed above, Gabite, Haunter, Gligar, and so forth, and you'll see that there's a giant number of fully evolved things that will have little room in this new meta, leaving room for a below-NU meta to flourish among the tiny number of players who would be in favor of such a thing.
All that being said, I look forward to seeing how this new, jumbled meta evolves, but I would be in favor of a name change, because there are a lot of pre-conceived notions behind the term "NU," and I don't think this new meta is going to abide by those notions.
People always point to the extremes, the Luvdiscs and Unowns of the world, but really, I can see tons of "true NU" pokemon not getting much use in this new tier, when you just look at the sheer volume of Pokemon dumped into the tier and then add in a large number of viable NFEs, like the ones listed above, Gabite, Haunter, Gligar, and so forth, and you'll see that there's a giant number of fully evolved things that will have little room in this new meta, leaving room for a below-NU meta to flourish among the tiny number of players who would be in favor of such a thing.
All that being said, I look forward to seeing how this new, jumbled meta evolves, but I would be in favor of a name change, because there are a lot of pre-conceived notions behind the term "NU," and I don't think this new meta is going to abide by those notions.
Well, it can Rock Smash 252/252 Impish Aggron for 70-83% of its health, and OHKO Adamant Aggron. So I suppose if you switch in a full-health Aggron every time you see Linoone, you can force it out, but that's horribly predictable and if you've taken any damage beforehand you probably lose.
I mentioned Aggron and Probopass as well as Bastiodon (the rock/steels) in my first point about Trapinch - namely, that Scarf Trapinch can trap, outspeed and OHKO all three with very little effort. Of course Shed Shell, Substitute, Magnet Rise, Rock Polish, and a strong attack on the switch are all Trapinch deterrants.
In nUU I ran a Trapinch-Linoone team with what I'd consider a very good success rate, at least for an elaborate strategy like that - especially with Steelix, Registeel and Spiritomb as common as they are. Without those three in the mix, Trapinch can have a field day, as the next three (well, four) Steels are x4 Ground weak. Scarfing Trapinch is actually a huge advantage as it allows him to be played like Dugtrio, trapping and killing slower walls.
I think the bigger problem with running BD Linoone in NU is finding a suitible dual screener to allow him to set up. Uxie does it flawlessly in UU with screens/Yawn/Memento, but in NU only Kirlia and Magcargo can use both screens and Memento, and both of them plain suck. Jumpluff is probably the best bet with Encore/Sleep Powder/U-turn/Memento, if you can get in on a repeated statup or sleeping Pokémon, or can Memento after something else on your team screens.
This sounds too much fun for theorymon, I have to go test it out.
Steinhauser, what's the point of using Scarf Trapinch over Band Diglett? With a Choice Band, an Adamant Diglett is not only faster than Trapinch, but it's also stronger. Yes, it does have lower defenses than Trapinch, but both are going to be OHKOed and 2HKOed by any hit with decent offenses behind it.
Just for clarity (both are Adamant):
Scarf Trapinch
328 Atk/178 Spe
Band Diglett
343 Atk/289 Spe
That seems like a pretty big gap in Diglett's favour. So, I'm not really sure what the merits of using Trapinch over Diglett are, since the huge Speed advantage at least gives Diglett a wider range of trapping + revenge-killing.
Just for clarity (both are Adamant):
Scarf Trapinch
328 Atk/178 Spe
Band Diglett
343 Atk/289 Spe
That seems like a pretty big gap in Diglett's favour. So, I'm not really sure what the merits of using Trapinch over Diglett are, since the huge Speed advantage at least gives Diglett a wider range of trapping + revenge-killing.
This is true, thanks Bologo. Banded Diglett is a much better candidate than Scarfed Trapinch for fast trapping, which I forgot about in NU since it has no chance of beating Steelix in UU. The underlying principle remains the same of course.
I've been using CM Sub Drifblim to amazing success.
He can switch in and set up a sub on a lot of things and then CM up or sub down to the petaya boost, getting +2 speed. Switches in on Tangrowth easily, Power Whip with no attack investment does 21-25%, so you can often Sub in his face and survive the attack, getting more Calm Minds along the way.
Setting up a sub on the turn that Stone Edge misses is hilarious too.
Actually, I don't know why Drifblim isn't used over Mismagius in UU, can anyone explain why not?
Hp/Atk/Def/SpAtk/SpDef/Spd (Takes into account HP [Fighting] IVs)
Drifblim - 440/x/159/303/158/210
Mismagius - 287/x/155/291/246/330
They have exactly the same set, so that's a non issue. Drifblim takes physical hits so much better than Mismagius, thanks to the similar Def, but 153 more Hp. Drifblim has more SpAtk with this set. Mismagius has much more SpDef, but the extra Hp means they take special attacks about the same (Missy takes .47% less from a Gengar Shadow Ball). Missy wins on Speed, but from the Substitute process Drifblim gets +2 speed anyway, outspeeding everything up to positive scarfed base 90's iirc, so that also doesn't matter. The only thing I can see that may make Mismagius more used is the Flying typing of Drifblim. Rock, Electric and Ice attacks are common and SR weakness isn't too good, but I don't think it's enough to leave a tier of space between the 2.
Anyway, guess I shouldn't complain, he's cleaning up amazingly for me at the minute.
Another great 'mon I've found is Specseggutor. He switches in happily on Fighting, Grass and Ground attacks and can then hit really hard with STAB Leaf Storm from 349 SpAtk + Specs. Psychic and HP [Fire] give good coverage, and Explosion is there to finish something off.
Sunny Day help would be good, but Exeggutor has been doing great on his own too.
All in all, I really love this new tier and can't wait til we get a ladder. Any news on that?
He can switch in and set up a sub on a lot of things and then CM up or sub down to the petaya boost, getting +2 speed. Switches in on Tangrowth easily, Power Whip with no attack investment does 21-25%, so you can often Sub in his face and survive the attack, getting more Calm Minds along the way.
Setting up a sub on the turn that Stone Edge misses is hilarious too.
Actually, I don't know why Drifblim isn't used over Mismagius in UU, can anyone explain why not?
Hp/Atk/Def/SpAtk/SpDef/Spd (Takes into account HP [Fighting] IVs)
Drifblim - 440/x/159/303/158/210
Mismagius - 287/x/155/291/246/330
They have exactly the same set, so that's a non issue. Drifblim takes physical hits so much better than Mismagius, thanks to the similar Def, but 153 more Hp. Drifblim has more SpAtk with this set. Mismagius has much more SpDef, but the extra Hp means they take special attacks about the same (Missy takes .47% less from a Gengar Shadow Ball). Missy wins on Speed, but from the Substitute process Drifblim gets +2 speed anyway, outspeeding everything up to positive scarfed base 90's iirc, so that also doesn't matter. The only thing I can see that may make Mismagius more used is the Flying typing of Drifblim. Rock, Electric and Ice attacks are common and SR weakness isn't too good, but I don't think it's enough to leave a tier of space between the 2.
Anyway, guess I shouldn't complain, he's cleaning up amazingly for me at the minute.
Another great 'mon I've found is Specseggutor. He switches in happily on Fighting, Grass and Ground attacks and can then hit really hard with STAB Leaf Storm from 349 SpAtk + Specs. Psychic and HP [Fire] give good coverage, and Explosion is there to finish something off.
Sunny Day help would be good, but Exeggutor has been doing great on his own too.
All in all, I really love this new tier and can't wait til we get a ladder. Any news on that?
Because Drifblim is only fast after setup, which cannot be guaranteed, partly because of the initial lower speed. That and the diffferent typing that gives Drifblim more weaknesses, including the crucial SR weakness, albeit some extra resistances, particularly Grass which allows Drifblim to set up on offensive Shaymins more easily.
Drifblim certainly has an amazing niche over Mismagius in Unburden, and if you play to that well you will be rewarded. BTW, I have used Drifblim over Mismagius in UU, just check out my warstory.
I'm confused? How is BL not a banlist?
EDIT: Leafeon fucks shit up. I find Tanglegrowth and Meg are common switch-ins. People forget about x-scissor...
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