Great minds think alike. This is an awsome concept.
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CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 1 - Concept Poll 2
- Thread starter cyberzero
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Who says it will have to lose HP if it's not an Ice-type? If Ice isn't selected as it's typing, we can make it a Pokemon more akin to Cacturne, by giving it an ability that negates the Hail damage, namely Snow Cloak. If the evasion-factor of it ends up being controversial, then we can make a version of Snow Cloak that doesn't have the effect, or has something else in substitute for it.
Edit: There's also the presence of Ice Body, which negates Hail-damage and gives it more survivability. The name, if it really bothers people on being on something that's not part Ice, can be changed.
That's exactly why making it part Ice may not end up being the best choice, and other types should also be tossed around when we get to the typing selection if zarator's concept is chosen. Of course, if it's chosen and it ends up being decided that T-tar shouldn't be a counter for this thing, or at least not a definite one, then there are also other options, such as perhaps giving it a good attack stat, more speed than T-tar, and access to an attack like Superpower. There are numerous options available, which we'll of course end up examining should the concept be selected.
It sucks my concept didn't make it, but oh well I'm voting Infinite Attack.
I can't respond fully without poll jumping excessively, but there's lots of ways that Snowdra could perform well in Hail and still beat TTar. That 4x Fighting weakness just doesn't go away.
It also helps that Abomasnow has SE STAB against Hippo and TTar, it's not completely inferior.
This isn't the place to discuss the useability of Hail at length, but you could read http://www.smogon.com/dp/articles/art_hail_stall if you want to know what Non Ice type, Non Ice Body/Snow Cloak pokemon can be used well in Hail. Of course, if Snowdra was made, I'm sure other new strategies would emerge too.
...yes?
This is why I proposed this for CAP8. If Hail teams did not need a good boost and a twist, I would not have suggested a concept like this in the first place.
If you have a "weather-tuned" ability, you do not take damage, despite the type. Cacturne is not part Ground/Rock/Steel, but it does not take damage from Sandstorm because of Sand Veil.
Who said it? I use Leftovers on my Kingdra and it still makes a great lategame sweeper.
Again, this is plainly false. I already explained why.
Not as much as you would think. A team composed of, for example:
1)Abomasnow
2)Walrein
3)CAP8
4)Tentacruel
5)Rotom-f
6)Zapdos
Could work without much issues. The article about Hail on-site explains it even better. Hail-team and Mono-ice team are 2 different beings. And, much like Kingdra, you should not be bound to pair "Snowdra2 With Abomasnow to work properly.
This is why I suggested "Snowdra" to have the tools (typing, stats, moves) to easily take on Tyranitar. One of the first aims of CAP8 should be to neuterize Tyranitar's dominance over Hail teams.
This is nothing more than theorymon. We cant guess what the metagame would become without even having created the Pokémon assumed to make it change.
Yeah, much like Sun is inferior to Rain (Swift Swimmers are better than Clorophyllers at abusing weather thanks to STAB and to the wider coverage Water offers). But, again, this is why a similar concept is thrown into the fray, instead, for example, of a Rain abuser (as if Kingdra itself would not be already enough...)
For the last time, if Hail (or Sun - but that's for another CAP) was on an equal foot with Sand and Water, I would not have suggested such a concept in the first place.
One last thing. Guys, forget the idea that "Snowdra" would work only under Hail. This is no Stallrein. Much like Kingdra, "Snowdra" should be a concept will create a versatile tool which will easily fit on many offensive and balanced teams, enhanced but not enabled under Hail.
EDIT: Naxte explained it much more briefly than me, thanks.
As far as I'm concerned we already have a Kingdra of the snow: His name is Stallrein, err, Walrein.
Oh well, at least I can kind of work my vision on Neglected Ability.
Otherwise we'll be looking at something with Snow Cloak or some poorly justified Ice Body pokemon.
Oh well, at least I can kind of work my vision on Neglected Ability.
Otherwise we'll be looking at something with Snow Cloak or some poorly justified Ice Body pokemon.
Thank you, I somehow forgot how of a terrifying sweeper Stallrein is. The name itself suggest it, isn't?
And we can always create a "clone" ability taken by the better "rainy/sunny" ones like Swift Swim and Solar Power, if we feel the need for.
Pivot point.
Snowdra sounds cool and all, but what Tennis said makes me not want to have it as the CAP 8 concept.
Neglected Ability again sounds cool, but we kind of did that with Argho and Kit. And a good ability is not something I want a CAP to be revolve around.
The others I just don't like much.
Snowdra sounds cool and all, but what Tennis said makes me not want to have it as the CAP 8 concept.
Neglected Ability again sounds cool, but we kind of did that with Argho and Kit. And a good ability is not something I want a CAP to be revolve around.
The others I just don't like much.
If you cannot kill it but it can wear your team down and take each member out, then yes, it is a sweeper. It may do so slowly, but a sweep is a sweep.
Or is Curselax not a sweeper on the basis that it also refuses to die while it sponges your team to death?
Of course there would be quite a hype in case "Snowdra" wins, but the aim would be, once the metagame settles a bit, to give Hail teams a way to go on the offensive route rather than stall. And to give offensive teams particularly a new brand sweeper.
Yeah, Hail teams fare pretty well even now, if you can use them. But, still, Hail is overall more narrowed and somehow "weak"than the dominant Rain and Sand, so a boost and a twist would be welcome.
@DK: On this basis, once you put entry hazards up, EVERYTHING is a sweeper. the difference between sweep and stall, is not that one kills Pokémon and the other not. The difference is that the former kills them fast, the latter kills them slow. Otherwise, we could very well say that Stall teams are composed of six sweepers (seeing how, especially with Spikes, things like Hippowdon sweep like Stallrein). Does this make sense?
Wallrein is mostly a defensive/stall-team Pokemon. "Kingdra in the Snow" seems to be more inclined to be a vialbe offensive-threat in Hail in OU, which doesn't really exist. There's Glaceon, but it's low speed and issues with priority really let it down. You might also jump to Syclant, as it's a great sweeper which particularly enjoys Hail, since that lets it use Blizzard at full-accuracy without having to give up Mountaineer. However, since the loss of Focus Blast, it suffers from the same problem as most other Hail Pokemon: it really doesn't like run-ins with Pokemon such as T-tar.
The goal of Hail-Kingdra, as a result, would be able to create a viable OU offensive-threat in Hail (of course not going over the border into being broken), that isn't countered by the common counters for Hail in OU, instead having its own set of counters, increasing the viability of OU Hail teams as a result. This is something worth attempting to pursue IMO, as we're learn much more about the workings of Hail and what needs to be done to make Hail more viable in OU through the process.
It really doesn't change the fact that Hail is still inferior to other weather because it gives significantly fewer benefits than something like Sand or Rain, regardless of what Pokemon we can make.
And again, it's pointless to make a Hail Abuser without being Ice type since one of the only benefits to using hail is abusing 100% accuracy Blizzard, which would make it an "absolute beast under Hail" with STAB. See: Syclant if you want an example.
And again, it's pointless to make a Hail Abuser without being Ice type since one of the only benefits to using hail is abusing 100% accuracy Blizzard, which would make it an "absolute beast under Hail" with STAB. See: Syclant if you want an example.
Looking at the choices, Snowdra would attract more Stallrein and Tyranitar (even if Tyranitar can't stop Cap8 directly), Pivot Point is a bit to vague, and a Para-busing Tank seems to favor bulky offense over frail Pokemon like Weavile and Infernape. Infinate attack would make a great anti-lead, but Neglected Ability would be fun to try.
Hail may be inferior to Rain for its own features, but what really put Sandstorm above Hail is the Pokémon themselves. Without even Tyranitar (i.e. with only Hippowdon), Sand teams would actually be almost on par with Hail ones.
And you do not need to be Ice to abuse 100% Blizzard. See Rotom-f.
I really wouldn't call either sweepers, because they're slow and to me sweeper implies being able to easily "sweep" through an opponent's Pokemon, quickly and effectively, through the ability of outspeeding their opponents and hitting them hard. Thus, to me, there more of tanks if anything, both being able to take hits and dish them back out, at least from my understanding of the terms.
Again, even if it's determine that what exists isn't enough to make this thing viable without going over the edge in terms of movepool and offensive ability, like what happened with Syclant at first, we still have other options available to us, such as giving it an ability that will allow it to significantly benefit from Hail, such as a Hail-version of Swift Swim or Solar Power that also protects it from Hail if it's not part Ice.
The CAP community has proven great at figuring out problems such as this, as in cases such as X-Act's movepool for Arghonaut, which gave it access to numerous good moves without being broken; I don't doubt the ability of it to do likewise here.
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