CAP 8 CAP 8 - Concept Assessment

[Lord Gloom]

No, it's just that...I fail to see how a pokemon is OVERused with 3% usages...that's 3 times..every one hundred battles just in case you didn't know. The thing that gets me is...what is Borderline? would that be like...1%? Less than 1%? Maybe even a .5% right? I mean you don't have to much space to work with when your OU cutoff is at 3% now do you?

I'm pretty sure that isn't the definition of OU. To be fair, neither is the one I'm giving, but just for an example: there are 49 regular OUs, and 7 CaPs, for what one would assume makes a total of 56, assuming that an equal number of UUs moved up to OU as OUs moved down. Number 45 out of 56 falls within that given number of 56 OUs, so I see no reason why we shouldn't consider Yanmega OU for CaP.

Again, neither my nor your definition of OU is the correct definition of OU, but until we decide to do a CaP-wide tier analysis, I'm going with what makes sense in my mind. Besides that, I can almost guarantee that there are Pokemon in regular OU that see 3% or less usage; why aren't they all UU?

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

When compared to every Pokemon used in total ever.
The 5 billion (obvious exaggeration) Salamences in the world.


25% of Yanmega use it. One out of every four of them.
That is far from never seen.

The fact that Yanmega is rarely seen doesn't change the fact that on the Yenmega that ARE seen, it isn't genially "rare".

Dude, if you're going to follow THAT logic, nothing is rare.

 

[SoT]

Not really. Just because people aren't using it doesn't mean Yanmega is bad. Yanmega HAS the status and movepool to make Tinted Lens work.
Therefore, IT DOENS'T FALL UNDER THE CONCEPT.

Oh my fucking jesus. Togekiss has the movepool and status to use hustle very well. Why's that on the list, exactly it's neglectged. PLEASE READ THIS.

We're not taking random neglected abilities that can be used viably.

No shit, we're talking about a specific neglected ability that can be used viably.

We're taking good abilities that aren't seen for the reason being that the Pokemon it is attached to sucks.

Okay, Tinted Lens is a great ability. It's not seen for the same reason Togekiss does not use hustle, because it doesn't use it as wel as it's other ability. You know what it's called when one thing is given more attention than another? It's called being neglected, which is what we've been saying for the last hour or so.

Yanmega does not suck.

Yes it does. It's UU for christ sake, that's garbage now, it used to be top of the top OU. How does is -not- suck?

What are you missing here.

I'm not missing anything, you're missing a point though.

OU doesn't specifically relate to usage, unlike the name suggests.
Note that another name for the OU tier is the standard tier.

YES IT DOES. Oh my fuck, do you not know how the tiering works around here? If you don't know about it, why the fuck are you gonna argue about it with me. I'm beyond words, you completely disregard half our posts, definitions of words, and now you ignore a complete proccess. Are you just ignorant, I really can't tell. If you don't know the basics, how am I to even consider the fact you know what you're talking about in the rest of your posts? Thanks, have a nice day.

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

I'm pretty sure that isn't the definition of OU. To be fair, neither is the one I'm giving, but just for an example: there are 49 regular OUs, and 7 CaPs, for what one would assume makes a total of 56, assuming that an equal number of UUs moved up to OU as OUs moved down. Number 45 out of 56 falls within that given number of 56 OUs, so I see no reason why we shouldn't consider Yanmega OU for CaP.

Again, neither my nor your definition of OU is the correct definition of OU, but until we decide to do a CaP-wide tier analysis, I'm going with what makes sense in my mind. Besides that, I can almost guarantee that there are Pokemon in regular OU that see 3% or less usage; why aren't they all UU?

Wait, why would you follow what's in your mind before an official tier analysis is conducted when you already have Yanmega as being defined UU in standard, and as beej already showed that even though it sees more use in CaP, it's not by much? What I'm saying is people have already tiered it, or close enough "version of it". How is "what your mind thinks" without evidence a valid way to decide anything serious on CaP?

 

[CyzirVisheen]

Okay, everyone should just hold off this silly argument for now. We should just wait for clarification from EM before we continue, because this is getting ridiculous.

 

[Veedrock]

Okay, everyone should just hold off this silly argument for now. We should just wait for clarification from EM before we continue, because this is getting ridiculous.

This is NOT the thread to discuss what a "Neglected Ability" is - use your own judgment.

Does not say "to be decided by Elevator Music." It is quite clear that it is up to us individually to decide what is neglected or not. There is no clear cut definition (yes, this means it can be on an OU pokemon too). Quite frankly, I don't give a damn what EM thinks is neglected (I suggested Adaptibility afterall).

No harshness intented. But Cyzir's right and this post and his should serve as reminders that this is pointless. Those arguing against certain abilities should stop flaunting their interpretation as it is not "the right one." It really isn't that hard to grasp.

 

[CyzirVisheen]

Ow. You didn't need to thrash at me. I'm just trying to keep things civil in this thread ;_;
It's just that these arguments have gone on long enough and things are getting too intense.

 

[Imran]

The percentage that turns up in the statistics thread is not:

[(Number of Specific Pokemon / Total number of Pokemon) * 100]

Notice how they add up to more than 100. In fact, if every 100th Pokemon were Tinted Lens Yanmega, I would be quite amazed, that would mean Yanmega was found on every 3 teams in 50, or 3 in every 25 battles!

What you actually see is:

[(Number of Specific Pokemon / 2 * Total Number of Battles) * 100]
or [(Number of Specific Pokemon / Total Number of Battles) * 50]

so: [((68*0.263)/ 993) * 50]
= (18 / 993) * 50
= 0.906

therefore, Tinted Lens Yanmega is only found on 1 in 110 teams.
(I used the value of 18 not 17.884 as we are talking about a discreet number of Yanmega. I essentially corrected the rounding error.)

You can get the value of 0.906 just by dividing the value by four lol, but you can see where it came from. It is easy enough to derive the first equation from this one, as each battle represents 12 Pokemon.

 

[zarator]

About Tinted Lens

Yeas, it is a great ability. Yes, it is a neglected ability (I cant even understand why SoT proposition have been contested in the first place...)

But, aside from being incompatible with Dragon (unresisted Draco Meteors and Outrages? Too much in my book), there is also another problem.

Yanmega is special based. That may not say anything to you but to me screams one thing. Blissey. Aside from crazy flinchax, Blissey walls Yanmega easily (especially if the dragonfly does not have hypnosis). But what about the physical side?

Lets suppose we get an Electric/Bug Pokémon, with a good attack (something above 110) and Tinted Lens. There are a lot of physical walls out there (even more than special sponges), but most of them really need to work of resistance to not be broken apart by boosted hits. I think that a physical Tinted Lens sweeper, unless it is given a somehow mediocre Attack (at least mediocre for a physical sweeper) and no stat-boosting moves, would broke the metagame.

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

I think tinted lens is only really an issue if we get an electric/dragon out of this, and even then if people really wanted to see it used, they may be able to work around it. Bug secondary does not seem to be a huge problem for tinted lens as the problems associated are largely hypothetical. Anyways, since the secondary type vote is on right now, I guess we just have to wait and see how that turns out.

 

[bpblu]

I myself don't think Electric/Dragon is a horrible idea... but I too fear a bit much out of a Tinted Lens Draco Meteor/Outrage. It's already bad enough on Pokemon like Salamence, if it gets unresisted coverage (essentially what Tinted Lens does), it could be a bit too much!

 

[Petope]

Aftermatch is an ability that is really rare ability that would work really good imo. Taking 25% from a physical attacker could both cause switches and make people think twice before attacking.

Just wanted to bring it up because i couldn't see it anywere else.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

I'm sorry to step in on a convesation, but why in the name of god are people voting on Poison as a secondary typing? Since when is poison a good type in any sense of the word? God grass was a better idea than poison. Way to give CAP8 a 4x weakness to a very common type. What with all the heatrans running around everyone and their brother packing ground moves to avoid letting said heatran absorb fire CAP8 would be even more fail than a spinda without a focus sash. Really, poison doesn't even have that much merit as an attacking type. Pretty much the best you get is something to hit bulky waters with, and thats not that much to boast about when one of the most common bulky waters is one, not poison weak, and two, can OHKO with earthquake. Not to mention Steel types. Why would everyone want this thing to be setup fodder for a metagross or scizor if it's holding a choice item? And again what about heatran who often packs Earth Power for other heatran?

 

[m190049]

Oh my fucking jesus. Togekiss has the movepool and status to use hustle very well. Why's that on the list, exactly it's neglectged. PLEASE READ THIS.

I don't know why. Personally, I think it shouldn't be on the list.
There are Togekiss sets that use Hustle after all.
And Togekiss is OU.

No shit, we're talking about a specific neglected ability that can be used viably.

It's neglected, but not because the Pokemon it is on sucks. We're looking for abilities that aren't used because the users all suck too much. The users of the ability are either NFE, NU, or the bottom of UU.

Okay, Tinted Lens is a great ability. It's not seen for the same reason Togekiss does not use hustle, because it doesn't use it as wel as it's other ability. You know what it's called when one thing is given more attention than another? It's called being neglected, which is what we've been saying for the last hour or so.

...Your right. It is neglected. But it's neglected because it has a superiority complex. Not because the Pokemon it is on is too crappy to really be used in battles.

Yes it does. It's UU for christ sake, that's garbage now, it used to be top of the top OU. How does is -not- suck?

Look at the Yanmega Page. It mentions it battling in the OU environment, even if it is in UU. Many UU Pokemon can viably compete in OU. It's UU because People just don't seem to use it too much. But it's not a crappy Pokemon.

YES IT DOES. Oh my fuck, do you not know how the tiering works around here? If you don't know about it, why the fuck are you gonna argue about it with me. I'm beyond words, you completely disregard half our posts, definitions of words, and now you ignore a complet'Te proccess. Are you just ignorant, I really can't tell. If you don't know the basics, how am I to even consider the fact you know what you're talking about in the rest of your posts? Thanks, have a nice day.

Looking back, I really have no idea what I was saying on that bit.
I WAS quite tired. 'Twas 3 AM.

But still; just because a Pokemon isn't Overused, doesn't mean it's BAD. And thanks for resorting to flaming.




Anway, as the others said, fine. We're getting nowhere with this, so lets just halt our debate.
Let's wait for an official word.

 

[Elegy]

@pkmn-taicho321: Poison was being discussed early on because most of the conversation began with defensive resists and what would be good; in other words, what the typing was made for. Poison offered resists to many types (already listed somewhere else) as well as an immunity to being poisoned. Apparently, a lot of people have been asking for a bulky Electric, and this is their chance to make one. Not only that, any bulky Pokemon with an immunity to being poisoned, a handful of resists, and neutrality to SR is "good".

Don't take away Poison's merit as a type just because it alone has no coverage. You need to take another look at its defensive potential. Sure it has a 4x weakness to Ground, but Scizor has a 4x weakness to Fire, Gyarados has a 4x weakness to Electric, and Heatran also has 4x weakness to Ground. Does that stop them?

I voted water, but that does not mean I cannot defend Poison, since I am still positive about it.

 

[macle]

I don't know why. Personally, I think it shouldn't
Look at the Yanmega Page. It mentions it battling in the OU environment, even if it is in UU. Many UU Pokemon can viably compete in OU. It's UU because People just don't seem to use it too much. But it's not a crappy Pokemon.

That's because Yanmega just entered UU so there hasn't been time to update the analysis. Hence why it mentions OU environment.

 

[m190049]

That's because Yanmega just entered UU so there hasn't been time to update the analysis. Hence why it mentions OU environment.

I see many Pokemon that are clearly UU, and have been for quite a while, yet still can compete in OU, and it treats it as such.
They are mainly OU/UU based on usage. A pokemon can still function fine in OU, and be UU.

Example: Umbreon, Shaymin Land Forme, Spiritomb, Magmortar, Blaziken, Gardevior, etc.

 

[Veedrock]

So? That doesn't make them "honorary OU." They're still UU Pokemon regardless of how they perform.

And for the last god damn time, if an ability is on an OU pokemon, that does not mean it isn't neglected. Quit trying to use that.

 

[Zystral]

m190049 is right.
A Neglected Ability is one that as an ability is never used. Rivalry is the perfect example when paired up with Luxray - Sure, Luxray can't do shit about it's defences (although this said, it can survive SD Scyther X-Scissor), but Intimidate is there almost all the time as it's a much better alternative to Rivalry. Thus - Rivalry is a Neglected Ability.

Hustle isn't exactly Neglected as there are certain Togekiss (and even Togetic, back in RSE/GSC etc) sets that use Hustle for the Power boost.

And finally, to the topic of Dragon- Tinted Lens.
Back in just D/P, most Yanmega ran Tinted Lens, as Hypnosis was still 70%, and not too worrying.
Platinum reduced Hypnosis to 60% Acc, which is why Yanmega was forces to start using Compoundeyes - to get that sleep down so it could set up.
However, Tinted Lens is still used on some non-lead, offensive, probably Specs Yanmega, as the neutral coverage makes up for it.
(For the record, Tinted Lens doesn't nullify resistance. It doubles damage done by a NVE attack. a x2 Resist (x0.5) would do Neutral damage, but a x4 Resist (x0.25) would do 1/2 damage compared to 1/4 damage)
Now, as Dragon is only resisted by one type, that does mean yes, all Dragon moves will have perfect neutral coverage, with any other attacks just being a filler for extra power on that Super Effective hit (like Thunderbolt etc). And having perfect coverage in the form of one attack, I think is slightly game-breaking. Sure, we could run Dragon, give it crappy offense stats, turn it into a giant piece of bulk and not give it Tinted Lens, but Electric isn't the best of defensive types, and add Dragon to it, you're weak to Ice and Ground, two of the most common attacking types in the OU Metagame.

 

[m190049]

So? That doesn't make them "honorary OU." They're still UU Pokemon regardless of how they perform.

And for the last god damn time, if an ability is on an OU pokemon, that does not mean it isn't neglected. Quit trying to use that.

That's not what I was trying to prove.

I was trying to prove that Yanmega is not a crappy Pokemon.

 

[zarator]

I see many Pokemon that are clearly UU, and have been for quite a while, yet still can compete in OU, and it treats it as such.

They are mainly OU/UU based on usage. A pokemon can still function fine in OU, and be UU.

You can apply this to almost every good UU Pokémon. Can't Clefable compete in OU? And Ludicolo? And Azumarill? And Roserade?

Unless we want to be left with Forecast, Color Change and such, we can't go off this route. And, by the way, EM's concept says that the ability should be neglected because the stat or the movepool of the Pokémon does not support the Ability.

Well, lets see the single cases.
Togekiss has a horrible Attack score. Period. If it werent for Extremespeed we would not even have a Hustle set. And, movepool-wise, Togekiss does not have a physical movepool worth of this name.
What about Yanmega? 116 Sp Atk is quite good, but 95 Speed is pretty meh when it comes to a sweeper. If you see all the sweepers below the 100 Speed benchmark, they either have a way to boost their speed, a sleeping move, or else they are not meant to be Sweepers like Gyara, Salamence and Stratagem are. 95 Speed, no matter how you put it, is bad for a Pokémon which does not have ways to boost it, must go with Specs in order to do acceptable damage and cant come in more than 3 times because of Stealth Rock. And the movepool? Yanmega movepool sucks. Aside from Bug Buzz and Air Slash, what does it have worth using? Pretty much anything.

As you can see, despite not being bad, Yanmega and Togekiss does not have the stats and the movepool to put to good use their second-choice abilities. So, under EM definition, Hustle and Tinted Lens are neglected abilities

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

@pkmn-taicho321: Poison was being discussed early on because most of the conversation began with defensive resists and what would be good; in other words, what the typing was made for. Poison offered resists to many types (already listed somewhere else) as well as an immunity to being poisoned. Apparently, a lot of people have been asking for a bulky Electric, and this is their chance to make one. Not only that, any bulky Pokemon with an immunity to being poisoned, a handful of resists, and neutrality to SR is "good".

Don't take away Poison's merit as a type just because it alone has no coverage. You need to take another look at its defensive potential. Sure it has a 4x weakness to Ground, but Scizor has a 4x weakness to Fire, Gyarados has a 4x weakness to Electric, and Heatran also has 4x weakness to Ground. Does that stop them?

I voted water, but that does not mean I cannot defend Poison, since I am still positive about it.

I'm just ranting because we are supposed to be picking the type with the most versatility, not going for defensive of offensive completely but a nice midground. Dragon is a solid defensive and offensive typing with only two weaknesses and some very good resists. The biggest issue that I have is that Electric Poison encourages either ground or steel type pokemon to switch in, both of which CAP8 wouldn't be able to deal with. At least with Bug or grass both of CAP8's STAB moves aren't useless to common pokemon, swampert, szicor, metagross, heatran, hipowdon, etc.

Also even thought you mention such pokmon as sizcor, gyarados, and heatran, most of those poikemon are offensively minded. Up in Ubers Garchomp also has a 4x weakness to ice, but he's up in ubers because of his excellent coverage and stats. Gyarados has access to DD which after two makes him just about he fastest pokemon around and one of the most powerful. Scizor has single handedly made bullet punch a feared move do to it's fearosious attack stat and technition. Heatran is almost alway seen with a scarf to make up for it's lack luster speed, and generally makes a splash on teams because of it's ability to counter scizor.

 

[petrie911]

m190049 is right.
A Neglected Ability is one that as an ability is never used. Rivalry is the perfect example when paired up with Luxray - Sure, Luxray can't do shit about it's defences (although this said, it can survive SD Scyther X-Scissor), but Intimidate is there almost all the time as it's a much better alternative to Rivalry. Thus - Rivalry is a Neglected Ability.

Hustle isn't exactly Neglected as there are certain Togekiss (and even Togetic, back in RSE/GSC etc) sets that use Hustle for the Power boost.

Platinum reduced Hypnosis to 60% Acc, which is why Yanmega was forces to start using Compoundeyes - to get that sleep down so it could set up.

Rivalry gives a 25% attack boost if you're the same gender as your opponent, and a 25% attack reduction if you're the opposite. It's actually just a bad ability overall. Nidoqueen has the option of running Rivalry over Poison Point, but the potential reduction in attack power really hurts its usefulness.

Yeah, Togetic used Hustle back in GSC...Moving along.

Yanmega does not get Compoundeyes. Its other ability is Speed Boost. Though I would say that Yanmega uses Tinted Lens well enough that we should perhaps consider other, truly neglected abilities, like Reckless or Skill Link.

 

[Ryuk]

Neglected by definition "fail to care for properly".

Togekiss does not "take care of" Hustle properly. And thus makes it a neglected ability as most if not every other pokemon can not use this ability to the fullest (lol Aerial Ace Delibird).

As for the Yanmega/Tinted Lens argument.
1. Like m190049 stated, Yanmega can "take care" of Tinted Lens.
2. However, in comparison to the usage and Speed Boost, Tinted Lens is neglected in the way that another definition "disregarded" comes in. Meaning Tinted Lens is ignored and thus "neglected" in that sense.

 

[m190049]

As you can see, despite not being bad, Yanmega and Togekiss does not have the stats and the movepool to put to good use their second-choice abilities. So, under EM definition, Hustle and Tinted Lens are neglected abilities

But... Both of them use the abilities sometimes.
They do have the status and movepool to put it to use... Probably not as well as they can use the other ability, so they end up being used quite a bit less, but they both still have use.

And I never said they aren't neglected. I'm just saying they don't really fall under the concept 100%. I still think they fall under enough to be considered legal. I have said this numerous times. I just don't personally think we should use them. There are other abilities that fall under the concept a lot better.