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The Uber Metagame: a Fun "Change of Pace"
- Thread starter Kir
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Bumpity Bump
I cut out the part about Pichu.
Ouch. Level 100. And none of those new moves are useful :(
On the other hand, once this is released extended clause will only exist as "Use Arceus with proper EVs".
406 / x / 301 / 301 / 301 / 331 Timid Arceus >_>
From SerebiiAttacks:
Judgment
Roar of Time
Spacial Rend
Shadow Force
Level 100
Hold Item:
Rowap Berry
In The Games Department
Movie 12 Giveaway Pokémon
The newest CoroCoro has revealed the details of the two giveaway Pokémon in Japan for the 12th movie. The Arceus is even more special. It is to be given in the actual movie theatres like with past downloads and contains the three signiture attacks of Dialga, Palkia & Giratina. It is Level 100 and in a Cherish Ball with a Classic Ribbon. Further details on them are to the side. We'll bring more details from CoroCoro as and when it comes so be sure to check back
I cut out the part about Pichu.
Ouch. Level 100. And none of those new moves are useful :(
On the other hand, once this is released extended clause will only exist as "Use Arceus with proper EVs".
406 / x / 301 / 301 / 301 / 331 Timid Arceus >_>
I thought that you could always re-EV train a level 100 pokemon by bringing its EVs down to zero with the berries and resetting its stats by depositing it back in the PC when you're done EV training it.
Nope, you can not do that in DPP
So much for the Japanese movie Arceus then; according to Serebii, it'll be at Level 100. . .
Deoxys-S is only viable as a sweeper in the OU Metagame. In Ubers, despite being extremely fragile, Deoxys-A does it a lot better. I've also used Deoxys-S as a Dual Screen Lead, and I have to say it works quite well. It's great speed lets it set up light screen and reflect without a problem, as well as having the option to set up SR.
To be honest, I don't mind that. From doing a few practice battles with Arceus, I came to the conclusion that it might just be a little too broken for Ubers. Not extremely, though. But with the huge amount of viable Sets there are, there is no definite way to counter it, and at a certain point in the game, your team could be swept by him depending on the Set your opponent is using. I think this "EV Limit" could be a way to help it not be as broken and limit the amount of Sets it can use. Though I have to say, 100 EV's per Stat sucks...
But Arceus' brokenness is precisely what I love about him in the Uber metagame T_T. I wanted something that could possibly beat Kyogre's #1 stronghold
Anyways, let's see if we can make most use of what is given to us at the moment:
Arceus @ Spirit Plate (or whatever it really is)
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw
- Brick Break
- Shadow Force
I mentioned SD/Recover/BB/Force in the other thread but then I realize it gets walled by stall (switch to Lugia during the BB, switch to Bliss during Force, etc). And then it has problems with faster opponents (this is where the EV cap hurts it most >_>)
This is basically the same as your normal SD Ghostceus, with Shadow Force into the mix. Shadow Force helps Arceus accomplish KOs in Kyogre (does min of 84% so get some rocks/spikes rolling-this is 404 HP / 276 Def Ogre), Giratina, Rayquaza, and Lugia, something Shadow Claw cannot achieve. SDed Shadow Claw won't even OHKO 0/0 Kyogre after Stealth Rock (from 301 Atk-it can OHKO with 339 Attack, though still not guaranteed).
Be very careful when tossing Shadow Force out there. Don't throw it unless you need it, because you will be punished if you mindlessly throw it. Think carefully before throwing this out. Get SR/Spikes (Deoxys-S/Forry/Skarm) so that the opponent doesn't abuse this (the only thing they're doing is prolonging their death). If the opponent keeps on swapping between something and Blissey both will eventually fall into Shadow Claw/BB's kill range, respectively. If they don't have a Ghost immune or a really bulky Ghost resist Shadow Force will really wear them down (248 HP / 0 Def Scizor takes a min of 57% from SDed Shadow Force, putting it into Brick Break's kill range. If Scizor has Roost and keeps on spamming it, SD and BB his face).
I suppose this isn't very creative lol, and Shadow Force would've been more appealing if it had higher Speed (so it outruns Lati@s and Lugia). The former glory of stall breaking isn't as effective as it could've been because Lugia can outrun it and set up a Reflect :(.
Even worse, SDed Shadow Force after a Reflect (or unboosted Force) just falls short of OHKOing Lugia after SR (kinda). Predict between Reflect and Whirlwind. If you predict Reflect Swords Dance once more and Shadow Force, which will OHKO Lugia if he stays in. If he swaps out to something else, Brick Break the Reflect. If you predict WW, Shadow Claw and OHKO Lugia. He can't play the shuffling game with you because there's Shadow Claw.
I still can't find a set where Spacial Rend would fit :/. And this is all just theorymon.
Anyways, let's see if we can make most use of what is given to us at the moment:
Arceus @ Spirit Plate (or whatever it really is)
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw
- Brick Break
- Shadow Force
I mentioned SD/Recover/BB/Force in the other thread but then I realize it gets walled by stall (switch to Lugia during the BB, switch to Bliss during Force, etc). And then it has problems with faster opponents (this is where the EV cap hurts it most >_>)
This is basically the same as your normal SD Ghostceus, with Shadow Force into the mix. Shadow Force helps Arceus accomplish KOs in Kyogre (does min of 84% so get some rocks/spikes rolling-this is 404 HP / 276 Def Ogre), Giratina, Rayquaza, and Lugia, something Shadow Claw cannot achieve. SDed Shadow Claw won't even OHKO 0/0 Kyogre after Stealth Rock (from 301 Atk-it can OHKO with 339 Attack, though still not guaranteed).
Be very careful when tossing Shadow Force out there. Don't throw it unless you need it, because you will be punished if you mindlessly throw it. Think carefully before throwing this out. Get SR/Spikes (Deoxys-S/Forry/Skarm) so that the opponent doesn't abuse this (the only thing they're doing is prolonging their death). If the opponent keeps on swapping between something and Blissey both will eventually fall into Shadow Claw/BB's kill range, respectively. If they don't have a Ghost immune or a really bulky Ghost resist Shadow Force will really wear them down (248 HP / 0 Def Scizor takes a min of 57% from SDed Shadow Force, putting it into Brick Break's kill range. If Scizor has Roost and keeps on spamming it, SD and BB his face).
I suppose this isn't very creative lol, and Shadow Force would've been more appealing if it had higher Speed (so it outruns Lati@s and Lugia). The former glory of stall breaking isn't as effective as it could've been because Lugia can outrun it and set up a Reflect :(.
Even worse, SDed Shadow Force after a Reflect (or unboosted Force) just falls short of OHKOing Lugia after SR (kinda). Predict between Reflect and Whirlwind. If you predict Reflect Swords Dance once more and Shadow Force, which will OHKO Lugia if he stays in. If he swaps out to something else, Brick Break the Reflect. If you predict WW, Shadow Claw and OHKO Lugia. He can't play the shuffling game with you because there's Shadow Claw.
I still can't find a set where Spacial Rend would fit :/. And this is all just theorymon.
Couldn't Overheat go on that set. With all these SD ghost/Normal Arceus skarmory would probably get a lot of usage and could set up spikes and than PHaze arceus forcing it to take spikes next time it comes in. I'd imagine that spacial rend could go on a defensive arceus so it can OHKO rayquaza after SR and 2HKO palkia with SR
edit: well even max spA modest arceus can't get a guaranteed OHKO on rayquaza even after SR
edit: well even max spA modest arceus can't get a guaranteed OHKO on rayquaza even after SR
I'm thinking Sub would go fairly well with that SD+SF Arceus.
That way, you force them to phaze instead of statusing, which obviously has its perks. Speed becomes less of an issue as well. Blissey becomes total set up bait, as she cannot hit you particularly hard.
Too bad Brick Break kinda sucks.
Spacial Rend could be for a SubCM set, but then Dragon Pulse's higher PP is probably better.
That way, you force them to phaze instead of statusing, which obviously has its perks. Speed becomes less of an issue as well. Blissey becomes total set up bait, as she cannot hit you particularly hard.
Too bad Brick Break kinda sucks.
Spacial Rend could be for a SubCM set, but then Dragon Pulse's higher PP is probably better.
I just realized, since Arceus can only get 100 EVs in each stat, but of course you'd wanna use up as many of your 510 EVs as possible, which means using 500 of them. Doesn't this mean all of the EV Spreads are gonna be pretty identical with 100 HP / 100 Def / 100 SDef / 100 Spe / 100 SAtk/Atk?
^^^^Yeah, that is probably what is going to happen.
At least 100 EVs gives you some nice numbers, outspeeding Adamant base 100s, having sweet 406/301/301 defenses, and having some decent punch too.
At least 100 EVs gives you some nice numbers, outspeeding Adamant base 100s, having sweet 406/301/301 defenses, and having some decent punch too.
I've thought of this (post in the mice and llama thread). Though it runs into problems when there's Bliss and Lugia (Person B). Suppose Arceus gets an SD when Lugia is switched in. Then, Arceus somehow gets a free Sub (say the person switched to a Blissey for some reason?). Realizing this mistake, person B swaps back into Lugia to absorb the Brick Break (for incredibly laughable damage). Arceus Shadow Forces as Lugia Roosts, then goes back to Blissey, and the cycle happens all over again until Shadow Force runs out of PP.
You can remedy this by having Spikes + SR, but remember that you won't always get both up. Spikes + SR will cut Blissey's health as she tries to pull of this stunt. However, with SR alone, SubForce Arceus may not pose a lot of threat on stall teams.
In regards to the EV spreads-yes, Arceus' spreads will be super predictable. Though I guess it won't be THAT bad as its insane movepool remedies it. However, the spread limits its viability quite a bit- SD Dragon Arceus won't be as good as it's no longer the fastest non Scarf Dragon in the game, for instance.
What SubCM set though? What does Spacial Rend have that Ice Beam doesn't besides hitting Palkia (who can probably be hit by your Judgment for close enough damage anyways)? Unless you're using Fire, Water, or Steel Judgment. The former two types go well with Spacial Rend typewise, though they both end up being walled by Kyogre anyways if you go by that route (Sub/CM/Judge/Rend). Steel Judgment isn't going to work with Spacial Rend at all, and the only other attacking option to go with CM Steelceus is Thunder imo.
Still, 406/301/301 is reasonably Bulky and 331 Speed still outruns non Scarf +Speed Palkia, Mew, Rayquaza, Kyogre and Groudon. Unfortunately it's 3 points behind from outrunning Garchomp :(
Arcues could have a Draco Plate if he really wanted to use Spacial Rend, but why use Arcues as a Dragon when there are many other Uber Dragons. It's too hard to use Spacial Rend and Roar of Time. Shadow Force seems gimmicky at best.
Actually, I wonder how this Arcues will fair:
Leftovers, Careful nature - Last Resort, Recover, Swords Dance, Refresh. It could work really well as a late game finisher with massive bulk. Refresh solves status problems. Roar/Whirlwind isn't a problem, because Lugia and status Groudon can't do anything else against this Arcues. Obviously, Giratina needs to be removed first, or else this set is useless.
Actually, I wonder how this Arcues will fair:
Leftovers, Careful nature - Last Resort, Recover, Swords Dance, Refresh. It could work really well as a late game finisher with massive bulk. Refresh solves status problems. Roar/Whirlwind isn't a problem, because Lugia and status Groudon can't do anything else against this Arcues. Obviously, Giratina needs to be removed first, or else this set is useless.
You realize that with Last Resort you give your opponent 3 free turns while you use Recover, Swords Dance, and Heal Bell, right? Not to mention that if you're forced out you have to repeat it all over again. Last Resort is a bad option unless you only have one other move (like Swords Dance), and even then that's pushing it. Maybe you mean it for really late game, but it still seems hopeless to me. Return/Frustration is the best Normal option Arceus has outside of ES.
It is meant for really late game. Otherwise, Giratina walls it, but even worse is, like you said, 3 free turns for pokemon like Rayquaza to prepare a sweep. If the given sets are removed, Arcues' bulk will allow him to survive and easily prepare a finishing sweep. Though if it could take all the opponents' attacks, the game would already be won barring crits, and there wouldn't be any harm in using Return instead.
And I just realised that Arcues can't know Heal Bell. It'll have to use Refresh instead.
And I just realised that Arcues can't know Heal Bell. It'll have to use Refresh instead.
Just wondering, I discovered an Arceus set that could work well as a wall in the uber metagame.
Arceus@Aqua Plate
EVs: 240 Hp / 54 SpD / 216 Spe
Careful Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Waterfall
- Recover
- Thunder Wave
Basically, this Arceus switches into attacks like Palkia's spacial rend, cripple it with Thunder Wave, and start stalling the opponent out with recover. It also makes a nice counter to Lati@s, as dragon claw easily 2HKOs both of them.
Arceus@Aqua Plate
EVs: 240 Hp / 54 SpD / 216 Spe
Careful Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Waterfall
- Recover
- Thunder Wave
Basically, this Arceus switches into attacks like Palkia's spacial rend, cripple it with Thunder Wave, and start stalling the opponent out with recover. It also makes a nice counter to Lati@s, as dragon claw easily 2HKOs both of them.
Sorry for the double post.
From the Clash of the Titans logs I've been reading, Arceus is going to be an incredible jolt to the Ubers metagame. He won't impact much at first as people will overprepare but then they will really catch on and toy around with him, getting creative. Normal, Ghost, and Steel seem to be the most common. Normal Arceus hasn't gotten very far as it seems players are overly prepared for him (they have at least one surefire counter), while Steel Calm Mind Arceus has managed to set up relatively easy and rip things up. I predict Arceus will push the Uber metagame into the physical state since special attackers won't be able to break him, meaning Lugia and Giratina are going to whore around even more >=( Steel Arceus also puts Registeel out of a job unfortunately :'(
Just theorymoning, but I can see why there's some quiet hype over Grass Arceus. Resistance to Ground, Water, and Electric is really hard to beat defensively, especially coming off of 120/120/120 defenses. Offensively a STAB 100 power move (+Plate bonus) hitting the current top 2 pokemon for Super Effective damage is outstanding, not to mention that it hits every psychic type (bar Lati@s) for more than Shadow Ball would. It's absolutely crazy. That leaves 3 other moveslots; 1 for recover, 1 for stat upping, and 1 coverage move (likely Dragon Pulse). Maybe this last point is for Arceus in general, but you get the point that it's nuts.
Ok, Arceus and his soon-to-be dominance aside, I'm having some team issues. It's currently really physically based as I was almost destroyed by Skarmory. I have Choice Scarf Palkia on my team which is my "weak link." I'm running off of Sun primarily, which makes Thunder suck and Surf weaken. It's also my only special attacker outside of my lead @_@ Now the question: is there another good Special Attacker that can be scarfed to beat DD Rayquaza? That's the reason I haven't jumped straight to Dialga (who would otherwise be my go to guy)? I'd rather not risk Jolly DDQuaza and just beat out any varient available. I will go for Dialga if there's nothing else though. Also, can somebody recommend some good standalone Special Attackers? I have a placeholder in Wobbuffet but my team doesn't really benefit from him. I already have Mewtwo leading, and I have a sleep inducer so I'd rather avoid Darkrai. I'm sun based so Kyogre is a no-go. Everything else is unappealing to me off theorymon, that's why I ask. Maybe Giratina-O?
From the Clash of the Titans logs I've been reading, Arceus is going to be an incredible jolt to the Ubers metagame. He won't impact much at first as people will overprepare but then they will really catch on and toy around with him, getting creative. Normal, Ghost, and Steel seem to be the most common. Normal Arceus hasn't gotten very far as it seems players are overly prepared for him (they have at least one surefire counter), while Steel Calm Mind Arceus has managed to set up relatively easy and rip things up. I predict Arceus will push the Uber metagame into the physical state since special attackers won't be able to break him, meaning Lugia and Giratina are going to whore around even more >=( Steel Arceus also puts Registeel out of a job unfortunately :'(
Just theorymoning, but I can see why there's some quiet hype over Grass Arceus. Resistance to Ground, Water, and Electric is really hard to beat defensively, especially coming off of 120/120/120 defenses. Offensively a STAB 100 power move (+Plate bonus) hitting the current top 2 pokemon for Super Effective damage is outstanding, not to mention that it hits every psychic type (bar Lati@s) for more than Shadow Ball would. It's absolutely crazy. That leaves 3 other moveslots; 1 for recover, 1 for stat upping, and 1 coverage move (likely Dragon Pulse). Maybe this last point is for Arceus in general, but you get the point that it's nuts.
Ok, Arceus and his soon-to-be dominance aside, I'm having some team issues. It's currently really physically based as I was almost destroyed by Skarmory. I have Choice Scarf Palkia on my team which is my "weak link." I'm running off of Sun primarily, which makes Thunder suck and Surf weaken. It's also my only special attacker outside of my lead @_@ Now the question: is there another good Special Attacker that can be scarfed to beat DD Rayquaza? That's the reason I haven't jumped straight to Dialga (who would otherwise be my go to guy)? I'd rather not risk Jolly DDQuaza and just beat out any varient available. I will go for Dialga if there's nothing else though. Also, can somebody recommend some good standalone Special Attackers? I have a placeholder in Wobbuffet but my team doesn't really benefit from him. I already have Mewtwo leading, and I have a sleep inducer so I'd rather avoid Darkrai. I'm sun based so Kyogre is a no-go. Everything else is unappealing to me off theorymon, that's why I ask. Maybe Giratina-O?
The problem with Uber teams is that they all seem even more samey than OU/UU teams. I've only actually done a couple of matches myself, but I look at the warstories and RMTs...Everyone has a Specsogre, most people use Darkrai/Deoxys leads. And apart from that there's maybe 3 sets for each uber that round out the rest of the teams.
Compare that to OU where it's Azelf/Gyarados/Tyranitar/Scizor/Heatran/etc half the time. And UU where every team has Crobat and Shaymin. I find the metagame becomes more interesting the further down you go, although the teirs are still very rough.
The Uber tier is the most inclusive as it allows you to use everything (except Arceus but who's counting him?), but there's no incentive to stray from the superpowered pokes you get by playing in the bracket. Innovation doesn't seem to be rewarded as much because threats are so massive they're hardly possible to work around without Uber quality counters.
OU is basically the same thing. Pokes like Gyarados, Heatran, Scizor, Tyranitar, Lucario all MANDATE very specific counters for a team to remain viable.
UU, on the other hand, has very few large threats that can be dealt with in a variaty of ways. The problem that UU faces that isn't as present in OU and Ubers is the fact that its definition is dependent on the OU tier. Pokes that fall out of usage get tossed down to UU regardless of actual strength in comparison to others in the bracket.
Yanmega is a good example of this. The main reason he fell out of popularity was the huge presence of both priority (Especially Scizor bullet punch and Weavile/Mammoswine Ice Shard) and quick SR leads that both made it hard for him to sweep. In UU, none of those are present. The most prevelant forms of Priority are Vacuum Wave, Fake Out, and Mach Punch, all coming off much lower attack stats than those in OU. This means Yanmega is infinitely harder to counter with the available pool in UU.
That's merely an example, I'm not saying Yanmega lacks counters, just that he is only in UU because of OU-specific counters. This problem is even more pronounced in the NU tier. Scarf/Specs Glaceon, and any Rain Dance team will have a field day in NU, there's just not enough bulky pokemon left once you get that far down. I would go so far as to say NU is the worst matched bracket there is.
I think Ubers has a place more as a novelty than competitive and strategic bracket, Ubers is to OU like Dragsters are to street legal cars, there's not enough incentive to bring street legal cars to a drag race when dragsters are available. I think OU is decaying slightly thanks to several huge offensive threats which have given rise to the prevelance of stall teams. I think UU is where fun can be had, it's the most diverse of the brackets, but suffers slightly from "out of place" syndrome with Shaymin, Crobat, and Yanmega being far too common and powerful in comparison to the rest of the bracket.
Compare that to OU where it's Azelf/Gyarados/Tyranitar/Scizor/Heatran/etc half the time. And UU where every team has Crobat and Shaymin. I find the metagame becomes more interesting the further down you go, although the teirs are still very rough.
The Uber tier is the most inclusive as it allows you to use everything (except Arceus but who's counting him?), but there's no incentive to stray from the superpowered pokes you get by playing in the bracket. Innovation doesn't seem to be rewarded as much because threats are so massive they're hardly possible to work around without Uber quality counters.
OU is basically the same thing. Pokes like Gyarados, Heatran, Scizor, Tyranitar, Lucario all MANDATE very specific counters for a team to remain viable.
UU, on the other hand, has very few large threats that can be dealt with in a variaty of ways. The problem that UU faces that isn't as present in OU and Ubers is the fact that its definition is dependent on the OU tier. Pokes that fall out of usage get tossed down to UU regardless of actual strength in comparison to others in the bracket.
Yanmega is a good example of this. The main reason he fell out of popularity was the huge presence of both priority (Especially Scizor bullet punch and Weavile/Mammoswine Ice Shard) and quick SR leads that both made it hard for him to sweep. In UU, none of those are present. The most prevelant forms of Priority are Vacuum Wave, Fake Out, and Mach Punch, all coming off much lower attack stats than those in OU. This means Yanmega is infinitely harder to counter with the available pool in UU.
That's merely an example, I'm not saying Yanmega lacks counters, just that he is only in UU because of OU-specific counters. This problem is even more pronounced in the NU tier. Scarf/Specs Glaceon, and any Rain Dance team will have a field day in NU, there's just not enough bulky pokemon left once you get that far down. I would go so far as to say NU is the worst matched bracket there is.
I think Ubers has a place more as a novelty than competitive and strategic bracket, Ubers is to OU like Dragsters are to street legal cars, there's not enough incentive to bring street legal cars to a drag race when dragsters are available. I think OU is decaying slightly thanks to several huge offensive threats which have given rise to the prevelance of stall teams. I think UU is where fun can be had, it's the most diverse of the brackets, but suffers slightly from "out of place" syndrome with Shaymin, Crobat, and Yanmega being far too common and powerful in comparison to the rest of the bracket.
As much as I do like your way of opening a thread, Ubers is a wreched metagame; really, not nearly as much the diversity as in any other tier; almost nothing par Dragon and Psychic-types, and wrost, no interesting Pokemon-they just look so robotic. This reason #1 I hope there will never be an Ice-type Uber.
Yes, I completely agree. OU doesn't have teams that resemble one another at all! Yes Ubers isn't that diverse, but neither is OU; I mean hell Salamence, Latias and Metagross aren't usually all on the same team. Secondly you're basing a tier off of flavor; which is completely insane. Ubers is one of the hardest tiers to get into since everything hits like a bomb and a simple mispredict could spell defeat for you. It seems to me you've never given Ubers a serious shot, or you have and failed at it; so you make ridiculous assumptions about the tier.
By the way there are quite a few non-Uber pokemon that are seen in the Uber tier, just so you know.
I assume you were not around during the UU craze. Where everyone was trying new pokemon in the UU tier. Parasect, Quagsire, Ludicolo, Jumpluff and many other pokemon found a home in Ubers when they were almost useless in the Metagame that they're actually in. Let's not forget the OU Steel-types who are always in the Uber games so they can resist the onslaught of Dragon-type attacks. Ubers was very diverse at that time, and some of it stayed (Theorymon's Jumpluff team and his Lucario team for example).
So what you're trying to tell me is that Ubers is a tier that doesn't require strategy and it isn't competitive? Ubers requires a lot more prediction to get your team in a favorable position, even if you lose one pokemon they it could be a game over since maybe that one pokemon was the only way to take on Kyogre. Though this does apply to OU it isn't to that extreme. In OU if you lose your Bronzong and a Salamence now has a Dragon Dance under its belt, you still haven't lost. Chances are you have a Scizor who can come in and use Bullet Punch for a KO. Or Mamoswine comes in and uses Ice Shard. In Ubers once my Palkia goes down, what is going to take that Kyogre's Water Spout? Nothing if I built an offensive Uber team.
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