CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 12a - Attacking Moves Discussion

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Three of them are TMs so they're allowed regardless. Draco Meteor is a move tutor is it's automatically allowed as well. Have no beef with Discharge so it can into the allowed list.

Fire Blast/Flamethrower vs Surf/Hydro Pump..tough call. Why can't it get both sets?
 
I feel the same, but looking here and in the counters thread, it seems like there are some folks who feel that getting both sides gives CAP8 too big of an advantage against possible counters. I'm just sayin' maybe we should try for the controversial stuff first before getting to the stuff we all agree on. :)
 
I agree with putting both Fire and water moves for allowed, in the worst case the movepool submiters could include only one set of them.
 
If I had to choose between Water and Fire id go water its decent coverage and giving a Electric / Dragon fire attacks is somewhat broken.

If it must have water and fire attacks we should give it Water and Fire Egg moves that wont work with each other.
 
Water vs Fire?

Well, let's look at viable moves (not including physical attacks) that this CAP could have from each type:

Overheat, Fire Blast, Flamethrower and Lava Plume are probably the most common ones out there that are all viable.

Hydro Pump and Surf are usually the most used as there aren't many other decent Water-type attacks.

Now, let's see what each type would hit that would give CAP trouble.

Fire:

Scizor will no longer be able to switch in that easily to absorb a Dragon-type attack and threaten with a Banded U-turn.

Magnezone is no longer fearless when it comes to absorbing both of this CAP's STAB moves.

Steelix will be in trouble since it will be threatened and can no longer switch in that safely to absorb this CAP's STAB moves.

Regice can no longer be a sponge towards this CAP.

Mamoswine will have to be cautious when switching in since it won't like being hit by a super effective hit.

Weavile will have the same trouble as Mamoswine.

Water:

Hippowdon will have to think twice when staying or switching in against CAP to absorb Thunderbolt and Dragon Pulse (to a certain extent).

Dugtrio would have the same problem as Mamoswine and Weavile.

Rhyperior won't like being hit by a 120 base power, 4x super effective attack.

Tyranitar will have a hard time taking in super effective Water-type attacks, which makes it all that more cautious towards CAP.

Heatran can no longer switch in so easily as it will be damaged severely or possibly being OHKOed.

Steelix will have the same problem as with Fire-type moves.

Gliscor can't switch in and threaten with Earthquake so easily any more.

This is what will open up to CAP if it decides to use Water- or Fire-type moves. It's now down to what do you want to threaten more. If we go with Water-type moves, we lose all the threats that Fire-type moves would do to them (excluding Steelix due to it being weak to both) and vice versa. Although, it can run both types and threaten all of these Pokemon listed. I'm not sure if it will be too broken. I mean, Draco Meteor/Thunderbolt/Fire Blast/Hydro Pump would destroy many walls and other things if they're used in the same set.

Sorry if I missed anything.
 
grizzly bearz said:
If I had to choose between Water and Fire id go water its decent coverage and giving a Electric / Dragon fire attacks is somewhat broken.

If it must have water and fire attacks we should give it Water and Fire Egg moves that wont work with each other.
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dragon/electric/fire

Heatran laughs at this combo all day. Dragon resist, Fire Immune, and with most Heatrans carrying Earthpower...

Tyranitar abuses it's SpD boost and resists fire. Earthquake hurts a lot

Gliscor can now switch in on 2 types without much worry and carries EQ

..and these are just off the top of my head. I can't see fire as being very broken.

@fuzzynip- Steelix has problems with Special moves anyways. Dracometeor/Pulse still does enough damage to keep it from switching it. Weavile wouldn't be switching in, it's too frail (Same with Dugtrio). Mamoswine still has the imunnity advantage, Outspeeds CAP8 and has a very powerful STAB EQ. Sizcor won't be liking Thunderbolt either, and isn't dragon resistant to Bug? Still and all U-Turn won't be hurting that much if it only hitting for neutral. Tyranitar isn't too afraid of Surf or Hydro Pump unless CAP8 runs Max Spatk most of the time, and it sponges it's STABs like a pro.
 
I don't see anything wrong with giving it both water and fire attacks, but I would keep it to just Flamethrower and Surf if people are afraid of it being broken. I honestly don't see this CAP as a wall-breaker and it's already going to be getting STAB Thunder and Draco Meteor in terms of 120+ attacks if it wants to hit hard. That combo is really only resisted by Steelix and Magnezone, and I don't think Steelix is going to get a bump in usage simply because of this CAP, to be honest. Draco Meteor/Thunderbolt/Flamethrower/Surf is not as threatening and isn't overpowered on, say, a Specs set, as it would be with Fire Blast/Hydro Pump.
 
admiral_korski said:
I don't see anything wrong with giving it both water and fire attacks, but I would keep it to just Flamethrower and Surf if people are afraid of it being broken. I honestly don't see this CAP as a wall-breaker and it's already going to be getting STAB Thunder and Draco Meteor in terms of 120+ attacks if it wants to hit hard. That combo is really only resisted by Steelix and Magnezone, and I don't think Steelix is going to get a bump in usage simply because of this CAP, to be honest. Draco Meteor/Thunderbolt/Flamethrower/Surf is not as threatening and isn't overpowered on, say, a Specs set, as it would be with Fire Blast/Hydro Pump.
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If it gets Flamethrower, it would get Fire Blast as a TM move. I don't think Pokemon with Surf automatically have Hydro Pump in their movepool, so that's an exception.
 
Fuzznip said:
If it gets Flamethrower, it would get Fire Blast as a TM move. I don't think Pokemon with Surf automatically have Hydro Pump in their movepool, so that's an exception.
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This isn't always the case. Manectric has Flamethrower and Overheat but no Fire Blast. Electivire has Flamethrower but no Fire Blast or Overheat.

Also just dropping Focus Blast into the fray considering it hasn't been brought up yet.
 
All allowed
Thunderbolt
Thunder
Charge beam
Flamethrower
Fire blast
I think Grass Knot for the occasional Hippowdon
Discharge
Dragon Dance
Draco Meteor
Dragon Pulse
Ice Beam for bolt-beam
Aura Sphere because Earth Power Heatran is going to wall it otherwise.
Vacuum Wave see above
Shadow Ball I'm throwing out "Because"
Mist Ball because of the spe. Def drop

And thats it for now
 
Ehh... I think it should go without Aura Sphere and Grass Knot. This thing shouldn't be a counterless beast. Stuff should always have a few options to counter it. Anyway, if it's got Surf, the Heatran issue is out of the way without giving it Aura Sphere. Focus Blast might be okay. Ice Beam I think is another one it could do without.

I think the Flamethrower/Surf combo is a good idea, forgetting the big power moves of both those types.
 
Stellar said:
This isn't always the case. Manectric has Flamethrower and Overheat but no Fire Blast. Electivire has Flamethrower but no Fire Blast or Overheat.

Also just dropping Focus Blast into the fray considering it hasn't been brought up yet.
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Didn't realize, thanks for pointing that out. It would be weird though if it only gets Flamethrower/Overheat but no Fire Blast. But that's just me.


On a side-note: It doesn't need Ice Beam. What does it hit super effective?

Grass, Ground, Dragon and Flying.

Flamethrower hits Grass, Surf hits Ground, Dragon Pulse hits Dragon, and Thunderbolt hits Flying all for super effective damage.

Dragon Dance
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Atomos, Dragon Dance isn't an Attacking move.
 
Just as a primer for any and all moves:

Pokemon that have:

Surf and Hydro Pump: Most water types.

Surf but not Hydro Pump: Any other type with access to Surf HM.

Hydro Pump but not Surf: Rotom-W, Masquerain, Salamence

Pokemon that have:

Overheat only: Primeape, Rotom-H

Overheat and Flamethrower Only: Manectric

Overheat and Fire Blast Only: None

Overheat, Flamethrower, and Fire Blast All Fire types, Exploud, Granbull.

Flamethrower and Fire Blast only: Most non-fire types with access to fire moves.


RE: Physical moves: As posted in the calcs, a Dragon Dance set is quite viable if it gets a lot of high-powered physical attacks. Thus I would support Volt Tackle, Outrage, and Earthquake, but not Superpower. Cross Chop would amp down the offensive power while still being relatively viable if you don't want to be setting up Subs and Light Screen all day to stave off the errant Ice Beam Blissey.

If you ask me what special attack matrix I support, it's Surf/Hydro Pump/Flamethrower/Overheat. Fire Blast is basically THE best filler special attack option in the game. Good power, decent accuracy, crippling side effect offensively and defensively, and smacks the onmipresent Steel type (outside Heatran) for heavy damage.
 
How about Sludge Bomb? I don't see any real problems giving the CAP this attack. Poison would be a nice little addition to throw on this guy
 
Videodude131 said:
How about Sludge Bomb? I don't see any real problems giving the CAP this attack. Poison would be a nice little addition to throw on this guy
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What's Sludge Bomb going to do? It has terrible super effectives and would never be used over Flamethrower/Surf/Dragon Pulse/Thunderbolt.
 
First of all, we're not deciding whether a move sucks or not, we're deciding whether it should be allowed or not, and second...

Fuzznip said:
Didn't realize, thanks for pointing that out. It would be weird though if it only gets Flamethrower/Overheat but no Fire Blast. But that's just me.


On a side-note: It doesn't need Ice Beam. What does it hit super effective?

Grass, Ground, Dragon and Flying.

Flamethrower hits Grass, Surf hits Ground, Dragon Pulse hits Dragon, and Thunderbolt hits Flying all for super effective damage.
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Why does it need one move, when 4 of them can do the same kind of damage?

Well, because it's one move... not four...
 
I don't think this should be given icebeam, seeing as no dragons ever use icebeam and I don't see why cap8 should be any different. @Atyroki, People aren't going to choose ice beam over a stab with better neutral coverage.
 
Lets see....

The obvious Thunder/Dragon attacks should all be allowed.

Aura Sphere sounds like a cool option to me. Fighting has good coverage, and Ghost types aren't as common as Flyers/Levitators, so it would be better than earth power in some situations. It also hurts Blissey more than EP, and has much better accuarcly than focus blast.

I am against all Grass Moves. Why? If this thing can get both water and fire moves (like it looks like it will happen), than Swampert suddenly becomes a very good counter (compared to everything else). With Grass moves, Swampert suddenly doesn't look so inviting. So unless Fire or water moves become unallowed, grass moves should become unallowed.

Ice Beam is pretty meh... I just don't think it would be that good on CAP8.
 
I'd have to say move the Fire/Water-type moves into controversial and have a vote on which ones people want. I'd rather not clog this thread up with pointless debate when this is easily decided with a poll.

Move Earth Power and the Fighting-type moves to unallowed since Heatran is supposed to be a big counter if this gets Fire moves.

Explosion/Selfdestruct/Volt Tackle/Focus Punch/Superpower/Cross Chop should be unallowed, even with 60 attack they can still do a fuckton of damage (see: Gengar), and I'd like to limit this Pokemon's physical capabilities. Blissey and Snorlax are supposed to be big counters, and this limits their ability to come in safely. It doesn't need the ability to go mixed outside of the occasional gimmick Outrage.

I also agree with the above poster on Grass-type moves to unallowed, Swampert should be a solid check.
 
Well, as most everyone has said the basic STAB moves, I'll compile a list of which TMs/HMs it should get in two categories, likely and debatable:

Likely:

TM02 - Dragon Claw
TM05 - Roar
TM06 - Toxic
TM10 - Hidden Power
TM11 - Sunny Day
TM15 - Hyper Beam
TM16 - Light Screen
TM17 - Protect
TM18 - Rain Dance
TM20 - Safeguard
TM21 - Frustration
TM23 - Iron Tail
TM24 - Thunderbolt
TM25 - Thunder
TM27 - Return
TM31 - Brick Break
TM33 - Reflect
TM34 - Shock Wave
TM42 - Facade
TM43 - Secret Power
TM44 - Rest
TM45 - Attract
TM52 - Focus Blast
TM54 - False Swipe
TM56 - Fling
TM57 - Charge Beam
TM58 - Endure
TM59 - Dragon Pulse
TM64 - Explosion
TM68 - Giga Impact
TM70 - Flash
TM73 - Thunder Wave
TM82 - Sleep Talk
TM83 - Natural Gift
TM87 - Swagger
TM90 - Substitute
HM01 - Cut
HM04 - Strength
HM06 - Rock Smash
HM08 - Rock Climb

I can't imagine how all of these moves won't get in, most of them are required or fit with the STAB types and basic structure of a dragon, so these moves should all be allowed. Now, for the next list, which all have a varying degree of variability.

Debatable:
TM01 - Focus Punch
TM03 - Water Pulse
TM04 - Calm Mind
TM08 - Bulk Up
TM12 - Taunt
TM13 - Ice Beam
TM14 - Blizzard
TM19 - Giga Drain
TM22 - SolarBeam
TM26 - Earthquake
TM28 - Dig
TM31 - Brick Break
TM35 - Flamethrower
TM38 - Fire Blast
TM50 - Overheat
TM53 - Energy Ball
TM55 - Brine
TM60 - Drain Punch
TM61 - Will-o-wisp
TM64 - Explosion
TM72 - Avalanche
TM86 - Grass Knot
HM03 - Surf
HM07 - Waterfall

These are all my suggestions for what TMs it should learn, but not all of them should be learned. Most of this list will come down to whether we want this Pokemon to know Water/Ice moves or Fire/Grass moves. The others are moves that I think would be interesting and useful on it, like Explosion, (EQ/Dig not so useful but if the Pokemon is Cartoons! then it would seem likely), Focus Punch and Drain Punch. These moves should all be controversial based on whether the community prefers Fire/Grass or Water/Ice.

Also, my two cents on the topic, I think Explosion or a fighting move is neccesary to destroy Blissey and Snorlax and since a lot of Pokemon get Explosion and Focus Punch I don't see why we need to restrict Explosion and Focus Punch. Focus Punch wouldn't be too common and Explosion would restrict it's sweeping movepool if it gets a stat-up move(which it should). Also, this Pokemon shouldn't get both Fire and Water, stick it to the basic split Water/Ice or Fire/Grass.
 
Deck Knight said:
RE: Physical moves: As posted in the calcs, a Dragon Dance set is quite viable if it gets a lot of high-powered physical attacks. Thus I would support Volt Tackle, Outrage, and Earthquake, but not Superpower. Cross Chop would amp down the offensive power while still being relatively viable if you don't want to be setting up Subs and Light Screen all day to stave off the errant Ice Beam Blissey.
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If you're suggesting Cross Chop, how bout I thrown in Close Combat and/or Hammer Arm into the fray. for CC it has all the advangtages of Superpower (acc, power) minus the annoying attack drop. If CC scare you, maybe Hammer Arm is better. Same strenght as Cross Chop, more accurary, and more PP for your buck. The downside is it lowers your speed but one can work around that.

Deck Knight said:
If you ask me what special attack matrix I support, it's Surf/Hydro Pump/Flamethrower/Overheat. Fire Blast is basically THE best filler special attack option in the game. Good power, decent accuracy, crippling side effect offensively and defensively, and smacks the omnipresent Steel type (outside Heatran) for heavy damage.
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Don't have a problem with that kind of matrix myself though I'm taken back on how you make Fire Blast like it's a super godly move. Never thought FB was that deadly lol.
 
Hammer arm and Aura sphere get my vote for fighting moves. Cant you jsut see the winning sprite using hammer arm? Cant you?
 
Fire Blast is a great move, and I am not so sure if I support it. I want to keep the steel counters intact. I'd be for Surf/Hydro Pump, though. It's either one or the other for me, although I think it would be easier to work with the Water variants in order to keep this thing in balance.
 
No comments on my TM list yet?

As I said before, Fire and Water on the same Pokemon would be pretty unworkable with the Special Attack of this Pokemon, so I propose either do Grass/Fire or Water/Ice. Also, Calm Mind should be on this too.
 
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