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CAP 8 CAP 8 - Counters Discussion
- Thread starter cyberzero
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You know it can have more than one, right?
A specially defensive Swampert has come to my attention as a possible threat to CAP8. It won't be hit super-effectively, and Ice Beam 2HKOes a max HP/min SDef CAP8.
However it can come in on support sets without a fire move. With CAP8 getting fire moves, it's more of a check.
even without Flamethrower and friends, Magnezone being the only OU Pokèmon to resist both STABs (the only other 2 being Steelix and Shedinja I think) would more than justify the use of HP Ground as a third attack, so there's no way Magnezone would have ever make it to a counter for CAP8 IMO
Please forgive me if I say something that sounds stupid; I'm learning the metagame, albeit slowly. Anyway, here's a few pokémon that seem like good counters, or at least checks:
- Rotom-F: immune to Ground, resistant to Lightning, neutral to Dragon and Fire, and packing an Ice-type move. Add in HP Ground, Ice, or *maybe* Dragon, and it at least looks like a decent counter.
- Froslass, for similar reasons as Rotom-F; I know it's listed as BL, but perhaps the ability to handle CAP8 can bump it up into OU? Weakness to Fire hurts, since CAP8 will almost certainly have fire moves at its disposal, but some counters are situational, right?
- Heatran: with proper prediction, or possibly bait-and-switch tactics, you could get the jump on CAP8. Resistance to Dragon and neutrality to Electric help a lot. Furthermore, if it ran both HP Ice and Dragon Pulse, its massive SpAtk would be a scary thing for CAP8 to face. Weakness to Water and Ground hurts, particularly since CAP8 may get both Surf *and* Hydro Pump, but it's not a lost cause.
- Porygon-Z: Excellent SpAtk, and both of its abilities improve the damage it deals. Neutral to everything CAP8 can throw is somewhat harmful, but not so painful as to discount it.
- Latias. I know, I know, I'm setting a Dragon against a Dragon, which (at least from how the posts in this topic sound) is the stupidest idea since square wheels. However, with her bulkiness and good SpAtk, I think a prepared Latias could rip CAP8 a new one. Again, it requires preparation and prediction, but it could work.
I tried to "think outside the box" here, since all the classic counters for CAP8's separate types seem to fear the two combined. Sorry if I've made any egregious errors!
- Rotom-F: immune to Ground, resistant to Lightning, neutral to Dragon and Fire, and packing an Ice-type move. Add in HP Ground, Ice, or *maybe* Dragon, and it at least looks like a decent counter.
- Froslass, for similar reasons as Rotom-F; I know it's listed as BL, but perhaps the ability to handle CAP8 can bump it up into OU? Weakness to Fire hurts, since CAP8 will almost certainly have fire moves at its disposal, but some counters are situational, right?
- Heatran: with proper prediction, or possibly bait-and-switch tactics, you could get the jump on CAP8. Resistance to Dragon and neutrality to Electric help a lot. Furthermore, if it ran both HP Ice and Dragon Pulse, its massive SpAtk would be a scary thing for CAP8 to face. Weakness to Water and Ground hurts, particularly since CAP8 may get both Surf *and* Hydro Pump, but it's not a lost cause.
- Porygon-Z: Excellent SpAtk, and both of its abilities improve the damage it deals. Neutral to everything CAP8 can throw is somewhat harmful, but not so painful as to discount it.
- Latias. I know, I know, I'm setting a Dragon against a Dragon, which (at least from how the posts in this topic sound) is the stupidest idea since square wheels. However, with her bulkiness and good SpAtk, I think a prepared Latias could rip CAP8 a new one. Again, it requires preparation and prediction, but it could work.
I tried to "think outside the box" here, since all the classic counters for CAP8's separate types seem to fear the two combined. Sorry if I've made any egregious errors!
Rotom-F is an interesting choice, but for the most part Blizzard is a poor option due to it's accuracy.
Froslass won't be bumped into OU because of a CAP project. CAP follows SU's tiers. Also Froslass could make a good revenge killer, but it would be able to switch in.
Heatran has pretty much been established as a check. It's rather low SpDef and the rarity of using EVs in that area make it suseptable to a 3HKO from Thunderbolt, and it's weak to Vacuum Wave, which has made it into the allowed list.
PZ is an good idea, but it's sort of a glass cannon and won't really be able to switch in. Also Vacuum Wave hits hard.
Latias is a good option, yes, as it can CM boost it's SpDef and beat CAP8 back with Dragon Pulse, and isn't likely to take a ton of damage when it switches in.
One final thought--it seems like the biggest issue with countering CAP8 is that its movepool is so (potentially) diverse. In that regard, it's a lot like Lucario--if you know the set, you know what to throw at it. Even if it has access to powerful Fire, Ground, Fighting, Electric, Dragon, and Water moves, the maximum number it can throw out is four, which sacrifices any support moves it could learn. Furthermore, with a likelihood of only three types available, and a very high likelihood of taking advantage of its STABs, CAP8 will have to pick just one useful countering-type. Although I'm sure most/all of the people who read this already know what I'm going to say, I think it's important to include a breakdown, thusly:
- Fire is great. Eats Ice- and Steel-types alive, both significant concerns. However, it leaves the door open for Swampert, Rhyperior, or Tyranitar, all of which can hit back and painfully so.
- Water is also good so CAP8 can mop up Ground- and Rock-types, but at the risk of being (almost) powerless against Magnezone or Metagross. Doesn't help against Ice, either. Swampert remains a (more minor) concern.
- Ground is an obviously good choice--simply destroys the only OU pokémon that resists both of CAP8's types, and just like Water it can beat the tar out of Tyranitar (pun only partly intended) and other Rock-types. Again, however, doesn't help with Ice or Swampert.
- Fighting deals with Ice, Normal, Steel, and Rock, plus Psychic to deal with some potential counters like Celebi, but doesn't help with Ground-types. Plus, the only Fighting-type move it could possibly learn is Vacuum Wave, which isn't terribly high-powered.
I could continue with the other types of moves that have been listed as "allowed" but that probably isn't necessary. Given that we set out with a goal of making a pokémon that's primarily good at taking hits, but can also dish out some damage with the right set, I'm not really sure there's a big *problem* with CAP8 having the ability to hurt a large number of pokémon. Like with Lucario, countering CAP8 will probably boil down to finding out what non-Dragon, non-Electric type moves it knows. And, from what I'm seeing, Swampert is looking like a good counter in most situations (especially if you use the "Other Options" Choice Specs set), but it's possible I'm missing something essential.
- Fire is great. Eats Ice- and Steel-types alive, both significant concerns. However, it leaves the door open for Swampert, Rhyperior, or Tyranitar, all of which can hit back and painfully so.
- Water is also good so CAP8 can mop up Ground- and Rock-types, but at the risk of being (almost) powerless against Magnezone or Metagross. Doesn't help against Ice, either. Swampert remains a (more minor) concern.
- Ground is an obviously good choice--simply destroys the only OU pokémon that resists both of CAP8's types, and just like Water it can beat the tar out of Tyranitar (pun only partly intended) and other Rock-types. Again, however, doesn't help with Ice or Swampert.
- Fighting deals with Ice, Normal, Steel, and Rock, plus Psychic to deal with some potential counters like Celebi, but doesn't help with Ground-types. Plus, the only Fighting-type move it could possibly learn is Vacuum Wave, which isn't terribly high-powered.
I could continue with the other types of moves that have been listed as "allowed" but that probably isn't necessary. Given that we set out with a goal of making a pokémon that's primarily good at taking hits, but can also dish out some damage with the right set, I'm not really sure there's a big *problem* with CAP8 having the ability to hurt a large number of pokémon. Like with Lucario, countering CAP8 will probably boil down to finding out what non-Dragon, non-Electric type moves it knows. And, from what I'm seeing, Swampert is looking like a good counter in most situations (especially if you use the "Other Options" Choice Specs set), but it's possible I'm missing something essential.
Surprisingly, Glaceon of all pokemon has just enough bulk to counter some CAP 8 sets. Observe:
Timid Glaceon @ Leftovers
252 SpA, 216 SpD, 36 Spe
Raw stats: Hp 271, SpA 359, SpD 281, Spe 197
Vs Modest Max Hp/Max SpA, min SpD/Spe Cap 8
Ice Beam
416 - 492 (99.05% - 117.14%.OHKOs 92.31% of the time)
Cap 8's attacks:
Thunderbolt: 129 - 153 (47.60% - 56.46%)
Dragon Pulse: 123 - 145 (45.39% - 53.51%
Draco Meteor: 190 - 225 (70.11% - 83.03%)
Vacuum Wave: 74 - 88 (27.31% - 32.47%)
Fire Blast: 218 - 258 (80.44% - 95.20%)
Vacuum Wave after SpA drop: 38 - 46 (14.02% - 16.97%)
With the given Glaceon spread it outspeeds Cap 8 and is at best 2HKOd if it switches in to a Fire Blast followed by Vacuum Wave, the former of which has a very low chance of succeeding. In all other cases it hits back and OHKOs with Ice Beam almost all the time.
If CAP 8 employs Life orb, however, this spread will not work unless CAP 8 lacks Vacuum Wave, and then Glaceon is OHKOd by DM 46.15% of the time, making switching in a notch harder.
I don't have time to run other calcs right now, but what do you guys think?
Timid Glaceon @ Leftovers
252 SpA, 216 SpD, 36 Spe
Raw stats: Hp 271, SpA 359, SpD 281, Spe 197
Vs Modest Max Hp/Max SpA, min SpD/Spe Cap 8
Ice Beam
416 - 492 (99.05% - 117.14%.OHKOs 92.31% of the time)
Cap 8's attacks:
Thunderbolt: 129 - 153 (47.60% - 56.46%)
Dragon Pulse: 123 - 145 (45.39% - 53.51%
Draco Meteor: 190 - 225 (70.11% - 83.03%)
Vacuum Wave: 74 - 88 (27.31% - 32.47%)
Fire Blast: 218 - 258 (80.44% - 95.20%)
Vacuum Wave after SpA drop: 38 - 46 (14.02% - 16.97%)
With the given Glaceon spread it outspeeds Cap 8 and is at best 2HKOd if it switches in to a Fire Blast followed by Vacuum Wave, the former of which has a very low chance of succeeding. In all other cases it hits back and OHKOs with Ice Beam almost all the time.
If CAP 8 employs Life orb, however, this spread will not work unless CAP 8 lacks Vacuum Wave, and then Glaceon is OHKOd by DM 46.15% of the time, making switching in a notch harder.
I don't have time to run other calcs right now, but what do you guys think?
I don't think we can consider it a counter per say, but cetainly we can consider it a check for CAP8.
With Stealth Rock out? I dont think so. Can revenge on him, but no one uses Glaceon in OU anyways.
Agreeably(sp) it is high maintenance. You'd need to make sure that all Entry Hazards are gone first...
I was simply looking for alternative solutions outside of OU and Glaceon does, after all, pack the strongest Special STAB Ice moves.
Mence and Gyara are OU and powerful despite the SR weakness, so SR weakness alone is not enough grounds to dismiss potential counters/checks.
Mence and Gyara have decent speed and defenses to make up for it. I believe Glaceon has awful HP/DEF/SPE stats. Just about it's only saving grace in OU is Hail.
Tiers are based on usage. If it is used more due to the creation of this CAP its OU.
no, actually no matter how used one pokemon might become because of CAP the tiers won't change unless they are changed by Smogon. It's been asked and answered in the Simple Question thread.
I am pretty sure the point is moot as Froslass will not be becoming OU anytime soon with its rather poor defenses against this things great Special Attack and HP. It is BL anyways so it isn't like there is a difference. Also, Remeber that Froslass only has average Special Attack at best, 80 base. This thing is not going to be a counter at all. Super Effective, STAB, and faster does not always mean *counter*.
There is somethin strange about what you just said...what is it? Oh yeah, Mence and Gyara. You weren't truly comparing Glaceon to them, were you?
Perhaps the base 65 speed, terrible special defense, and extremely limited movepool are enough for grounds? Just because it has 130 Special Attack doesn't mean it is a counter or even a Check. You pretty much have to run Max Speed and Max Special attack to outspeed it, but even then it can run (and likely will) run speed EVs on its own, and without Max/Max for your offense/speed, you are going to be OHKO'd be Flamethrower, Draco Meteor, or something else.
Well, I didn't say that Glaceon was a surefire counter for all versions of CAP 8. Just to some. Many counters in today's metagame after all require either advance scouting or accurate prediction to pull off as switching in on the wrong move or getting surprised by a move you didn't expect can be fatal. I just wanted to show that Glaceon, of all pokemon, can succeed with countering certain sets with the right spread.
I ran a few more calcs:
Timid Glaceon with 252SpA, 216SpD, 36Spe and Leftovers vs CAP 8 with MaxHp/Max either defence and minSpA/Spe:
Ice beam vs MaxHp/SpD +nature:
282 - 332 (67.14% - 79.05%)
Ice beam vs MaxHp/SpD neutral nature:
306 - 362 (72.86% - 86.19%)
Ice beam vs MaxHp/minSpD neutral nature:
416 - 492 (99.05% - 117.14%)(OHKO 92.31%)
CAP 8 with min SpA:
Thunderbolt: 94 - 112 (34.69% - 41.33%)(2HKO with SR&Lefties 2.43%)
Thunder: 120 - 142 (44.28% - 52.40%)(2HKO 17.03%)
Dragon Pulse: 90 - 106 (33.21% - 39.11%)(3HKO with SR&Lefties)
Draco Meteor: 139 - 165 (51.29% - 60.89%)
Vaccuum Wave: 56 - 66 (20.66% - 24.35%)
Overheat: 186 - 220 (68.63% - 81.18%)(OHKO with SR 46.15%)
Fire Blast: 160 - 190 (59.04% - 70.11%)
Flamethrower: 126 - 150 (46.49% - 55.35%)(2HKO with SR&Lefties 11.37%)
After the Spa drop from Draco meteor/Overheat:
Thunderbolt: 48 - 57 (17.71% - 21.03%)
Thunder: 60 - 72 (22.14% - 26.57%)
Dragon Pulse: 45 - 54 (16.61% - 19.93%)
Draco Meteor: 70 - 84 (25.83% - 31.00%)
Vaccuum Wave: 28 - 34 (10.33% - 12.55%)
Overheat: 94 - 112 (34.69% - 41.33%)
Fire Blast: 80 - 96 (29.52% - 35.42%)
Flamethrower: 64 - 76 (23.62% - 28.04%)
As nothing is an OHKO, even with SR (except OH), you also have to subtract a further 6.25% from each calc. In reality, this means that if SR is absent you only really get 2HKOd 100% of the time by switching into a strong fire move followed by DM. With SR up, however, anything except Vaccuum wave followed by DM is a 2HKO. If you switch in on DM, however, and SR is absent, you will force CAP 8 out as he will not be ale to KO you with his next attack and also risk taking a minimum of 62.89% damage with Leftovers factored in depending on the EV spread.
Further, if Glaceon employs the same EV spread but with LO instead, all defensive versions of CAP 8, except MaxHp/SpD +nature, are OHKOd with SR factored in. The latter is OHKOd 92.31% of the time instead. Either way you risk losing Glaceon in the process depending on which attack you switched in on and if SR was up.
Essentially what I have shown is that defensive versions of CAP 8 will, under the given circumstances, lose to Glaceon a majority of the time. Consider further that defensive sets rarely employ more than 1-2 attacking moves (which usually are STABed ones at that) and it means a higher survivability for Glaceon. I did also show in my other post that Glaceon can beat LO-less CAP 8 with Maximum SpA and +nature, but that is admittedly an unlikely scenario as offensive versions of most pokemon carry LO.
So, what do you guys think? Am I making an adequate case?
My point was, why is Glaceon not considered as powerful as Mence and Gyara when all three have the same SR weakness?
That combined with SR weakness is enough to disregard Glaceon as a counter. What I said, however, was that SR weakness alone is not enough grounds to disregard Glaceon.
No, IMO. First of all, CAP8 will have the highest Sp Atk of all OU Dragons, so I think we will commonly see that stat EVed quite a bit (quite a LOT I'd say). Even with a light investment, CAP8 can dent Glaceon quite hard. But most importantly, Glaceon is dead weight against a good part of the OU metagame. Things like Scizor, Metagross, Blissey, Heatran and Tyranitar will ruin its day more often than not. Why should I employ a Pokèmon which has few probabilities to stop CAP8 and can do very little elsewhere? I'd rather go with some more reliable and overall useful counters like the ones we already have listed here many times.
Glaceon is an inferior Regice when it comes to countering CAP8.
They have the same type, but Regice takes all of CAP8's attacks much more effectively and although it can't OHKO with Ice Beam, it also won't be crushed by a physical set.
The Glaceon set posted is exchanging a possible KO for a near guarenteed 2HKO from Thunderbolt.
Given the set listed in the example with 295 SA:
295 SA vs. 280 SDef and 271 HP:
Thunderbolt: 295 Atk vs 280 Def & 271 HP (95 Base Power): 109 - 129 (40.22% - 47.60%) 98.36% chance of a KO factoring in SR and Leftovers.
Draco Meteor: 295 Atk vs 280 Def & 271 HP (140 Base Power): 159 - 187 (58.67% - 69.00%) Always 2HKOs with Stealth Rock.
Flamethrower: 295 Atk vs 280 Def & 271 HP (95 Base Power): 146 - 172 (53.87% - 63.47%) Always 2HKOs.
Overheat: 295 Atk vs 280 Def & 271 HP (140 Base Power): 212 - 250 (78.23% - 92.25%) Always 2HKOs.
So basically any combination of these attacks on the switchin:
Thunderbolt + Draco Meteor
Thunderbolt + Flamethrower
Thunderbolt + Overheat
Flamethrower + Flamethrower
Flamethrower + Overheat
Draco Meteor + Overheat
Overheat + any
Is reliably going to 2HKO Glaceon without Stealth Rock. It has some playing room at the margins, but once fire attacks get thrown into the mix, gave over.
With Stealth Rock? LOL, you just wasted an overly specialized "counter."
They have the same type, but Regice takes all of CAP8's attacks much more effectively and although it can't OHKO with Ice Beam, it also won't be crushed by a physical set.
The Glaceon set posted is exchanging a possible KO for a near guarenteed 2HKO from Thunderbolt.
Given the set listed in the example with 295 SA:
295 SA vs. 280 SDef and 271 HP:
Thunderbolt: 295 Atk vs 280 Def & 271 HP (95 Base Power): 109 - 129 (40.22% - 47.60%) 98.36% chance of a KO factoring in SR and Leftovers.
Draco Meteor: 295 Atk vs 280 Def & 271 HP (140 Base Power): 159 - 187 (58.67% - 69.00%) Always 2HKOs with Stealth Rock.
Flamethrower: 295 Atk vs 280 Def & 271 HP (95 Base Power): 146 - 172 (53.87% - 63.47%) Always 2HKOs.
Overheat: 295 Atk vs 280 Def & 271 HP (140 Base Power): 212 - 250 (78.23% - 92.25%) Always 2HKOs.
So basically any combination of these attacks on the switchin:
Thunderbolt + Draco Meteor
Thunderbolt + Flamethrower
Thunderbolt + Overheat
Flamethrower + Flamethrower
Flamethrower + Overheat
Draco Meteor + Overheat
Overheat + any
Is reliably going to 2HKO Glaceon without Stealth Rock. It has some playing room at the margins, but once fire attacks get thrown into the mix, gave over.
With Stealth Rock? LOL, you just wasted an overly specialized "counter."
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