Not-Fully-Evolved 'mons in UU/NU

Mattman324 said:
How about Magmar? In UU, Magmortar outclasses it. But in NU, he starts to shine, what with 95 attack, 100 special attack, and 93 speed. Although, his 65 Hp and 57 Defense he won't be taking hits, he does have a decent 85 base special defense. Plus, most physical attackers won't like flame body. Add this to a decent (read: you don't have magmortar's thousand move movepool.) set of moves, including multiple fire and fighting attacks, phychic, and the elemental punches (sans ice), and you've got trouble.
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Meh, I'd say that entei outclasses Magmar by a good distance. Entei's special stat is slightly lower and he doesn't have access to ThunderPunch or Cross Chop, but he makes up for it with higher attack, HP and speed, Stone Edge, Eruption, and Calm Mind to boost his special stats up.

Also, what are you guys doing with this "revamp a moveset process" stuff? Most people already know that almost all Pre-evos play like mini version of their fully evolved counter parts.
 
It's sad too. I used to like Magmar a lot. I guess we just need a NNU metagame or something for it.

Also, I have done some tryouts, and I do not think that any of the Starter 2nd form works well in NU, that is that they all gets outclassed.

Out of the fiery four, Charmeleon, Quilava, Combusken and Monferno gets completely outclassed by a combination of Flareon, Entei and Ninetales, to a point that none of them are worth using.

As for the watery four, all Physical Attacking is infinitely outclassed by Floatzel (why is it in NU anyway???) and Prinplup's special sweeping is inferior to Golduck and all tanking attempts are outclassed by Slowking.

Of the four plants, Physical Attacking are shadowed by Leafeon, mixed Attacking by Victreeble and SubSeeding Grovyle is beaten by Jumpluff.

Anyone who can find a strategy that they can do that aren't really outclassed by any other pokes in NU?
 
I've been using the following Metang to some success in NU :

Metang @ Light Clay
Impish
252 HP/252 Def/6 SpD
- Stealth Rock
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Explosion

Now as you know, good steel types are at a premium in NU, most of them all have horrendous 4x weaknesses, well Metang doesn't suffer from that problem, can come in on many of the top threats in NU. Also there are few good dual screeners in NU, and none are able to go out with a bang like Metang is after his job is done. I usually then bring in Calm Mind Drifblim, SD Lickilicky or DD Shelgon (also has some potential with DD, Outrage, Dragon Claw, Brick Break which wrecks pretty much all the steels you'll see in NU) to sweep. I'll write more about Shelgon if I find it of use later, though at the moment I've only tested it behind Dual Screens.
 
Vigoroth (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Vital Spirit
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Return
- Focus Punch / Hammer Arm
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch / Night Slash / Shadow Claw

Hit & Run

Cranidos for Trick room, Specs Grovyle.
 
How could everyone forget rattata? WIth FEAR it can kill arceus with a 99 level disadvantge and that is just awesome.

EDIT: oops mewtwo then
 
FEAR is too predictable. seriously,even without exploiting the items/moveset. what else is the reason to bring a lv1 Rattata to OU battles(or Uber)?

and i think Vigoroth could be useful too
 
FEAR is already a known strategy that works well in any metagame there is pretty much. There is no need for talk over the effectiveness of FEAR pokemon.

Vigoroth is not considered as an NFE, as it is used a completely different way with a different ability than Slaking.
 
Riverside said:
Vigoroth (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Vital Spirit
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Return
- Focus Punch / Hammer Arm
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch / Night Slash / Shadow Claw
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The only reason to not use this set wouldn't be Slaking, but that Vigoroth is outclassed by Kangaskhan with this set (yes, he's NU too). Kangaskhan has every advantage over Vigoroth except Vital Spirit, which is not enough to give this set worth.

When using NFE, you must make sure that they are not completely outclassed by other Pokemon. Using a NFE simply because it has a few traits to differentiate them over other Pokemon e.g. Abilities, an extra move, usually isn't a good enough reason.
 
DGlacia said:
FEAR is already a known strategy that works well in any metagame there is pretty much.
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what are you talking about, FEAR is horribly unreliable. It is ruined by entry hazards/ghosts/priority moves, its not very good in any metagame.
 
DGlacia said:
Vigoroth is not considered as an NFE, as it is used a completely different way with a different ability than Slaking.
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By this definition, Trapinch, Clamperl and Pikachu are not NFEs either, yet you put them in your list.

I would say the main reason not to use Vigoroth is Zangoose, who fills the same niche and has better stats and movepool.

Regarding FEAR, it works well with Clefable and co., because of Magic Guard, but that's about it.
 
DGlacia said:
I think that there are many better choices than Monferno SDancer in UU.
78 Attack and 81 Speed is barely useable, and 64/58/58 defenses usually means that it is OHKOed by any STAB move or unSTABed SE move. Average speed in a metagame full of Shaymin/Moltres etc. is not good.

Also, why would you EVER use a SDMonferno over SDBlaziken? Monferno's 1 point Speed advantage is almost negligible, and in UU only allows it to extra outrun Altaria, Gardevoir, Kabutops and Mesprit, two of which can beat it anyway assuming they switch in on the SD turn. An Attack stat of 120 and obviously superior (but also not spectacular) 80/70/70 outclasses Monferno completely IMO. And if you want a priority on Blaziken, you can even use Quick Attack, which is only a small percentage weaker than Monferno's Mach Punch, taking into account STAB.
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Agreed it's stats are pitiful and even infernape's speed and attack stats arent incredible in OU though it's movepool is very nice :D. Blaziken is definately better in any and every way.
 
@Mattman324: You've completely forgotten that Magmar learns Flare Blitz, which is probably the only other good move for it.

@people talking about Kangaskhan: he's a she, not a he.
 
@Latios315 - Ever checked out the Tiny Tots themed RMT? It does work quite well you know, the FEAR pokes, when a team has been built well...

@Steinhauser - Yes, I put Trapinch, Pikachu and Clamperl on the list because I believe that each of them can differentiate themselves from any other pokemon in the NU metagame. Vigoroth however does not cut it. (Kangaskhan has Scrappy, other Normal Attackers like Zangoose outclasses it etc. etc.)
 
The only reliable FEAR Pokemon is Cleffa with Magic Guard.

Also, sorry about the Vigoroth mixup, but as above, Kangaskhan outclasses it.
 
DGlacia said:
@Latios315 - Ever checked out the Tiny Tots themed RMT? It does work quite well you know, the FEAR pokes, when a team has been built well...
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It's just a gimmick. Like most gimmicks, the element of surprise only works a few times, then there will be strategies in place to avoid them. Consider the fact that the pair of a revenge-killing Dugtrio and choice scarf Heatran completely obliterate that team.
 
XenoIncognito said:
It's just a gimmick. Like most gimmicks, the element of surprise only works a few times, then there will be strategies in place to avoid them. Consider the fact that the pair of a revenge-killing Dugtrio and choice scarf Heatran completely obliterate that team.
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Yes, but how many teams has the pairing Dugtrio + CScarf Heatran? I am just saying that, given the correct conditions, they can work as well. Any well balanced team is doomed to fail if most of the problem pokemon appears on the same opposing team. So, it depends. Not saying I support the use of FEAR pokes.
 
DGlacia said:
@Latios315 - Ever checked out the Tiny Tots themed RMT? It does work quite well you know, the FEAR pokes, when a team has been built well...
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i can build a team around specs gyarados, but that doesn't make it anything more than an unreliable gimmick
 
A short analysis on the four NFE dragons:

The NFE Dragons obviously only has themselves to compete around with. Consisting of Gabite, Dragonair, Shelgon and Vibrava, they can still retain their various uses in the NU tier. Gabite has already been proved to make a good Choice Scarf revenge killer with the moveset Outrage / Earthquake / Stone Edge / Shadow Claw. Draco Meteor and Fire Blast lacks the oomph, with Gabite’s not-so-spectacular 50 SpA (a.k.a. mediocre). Dragonair, on the other hand, actually functions as a not-so-gamebreaking MixMence in the NU tier. 70 Spe is not unusable at all if well invested in, and it has almost too many coverage moves to list (Surf, Ice Beam, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, do I need to list more?), allowing it to become an unpredictable attacker, physical, mixed or special, that no one ever prepares for. Locking itself with Outrage is still too dangerous, so it is generally better to leave the Scarf Revenge Killing to Gabite. As for Shelgon, its Speed is way too low for any good attacking and sweeping attempts. Although, as tested by some of the past posters, it can potentially utilize a Dragon Dance set when behind a Light Screen, as with some EV investment you can outspeed everything non-Scarfed in the metagame after 2 DDs. With its nice set of resistances and defenses comparable to Gligar, it can be used also as a tank with Toxic / Roar / Dragon Claw / filler. Vibrava, however, gets completely outclassed by the combination of the three dragons above. Gabite simply has more power and speed, and its defensive capabilities are generally inferior to Shelgons, and arguably even worse with a x4 Ice weak and lost Water / Grass resists. Although it does have Ground + Electric immunities as well as a SR resist, it remains outclassed.
 
Is think wynaut should be at least NFE because in ubers it can't even stand an attack from the powerful ubers(unlike his older brotha, Wobbuffet, who has a shitload of HP), so his uber ability pretty much a waste.

It's pretty obvious that Electabuzz and Rhydon will be the most useful NFEs here, they were OUs anyway, and i'm sad to see Vibrava outclassed to other dragons, just like flygon was.
 
GatitoNeku said:
Is think wynaut should be at least NFE because in ubers it can't even stand an attack from the powerful ubers(unlike his older brotha, Wobbuffet, who has a shitload of HP), so his uber ability pretty much a waste.

It's pretty obvious that Electabuzz and Rhydon will be the most useful NFEs here, they were OUs anyway, and i'm sad to see Vibrava outclassed to other dragons, just like flygon was.
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Don't forget Magmar, Magneton and Dusclops as well!

Oh, and yea, Flygon was decidedly BL when Garchomp had ruled in OU, and the same will happen again on the unlikely circumstance that Chomp will be voted OU. Well, not much reason to use Vibrava instead of Gabite.
 
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