np: UU - Higher Ground

[dekzeh]

weezing is unexistant?i dont think so with the recent stats:
as i said i only listed arcanine because of its trait which means that your baton passing +1(although it isnt really much of a differnce)
since you only mentioned SD leafon and not the baton passing or the SD sweeper but if its a SD sweeper then registeel walls it all day


im not gonna list the rest because i ethier agree with you or just to think about it.

Yes Weezing is pretty much unexistant, you just confirmed what I said with those stats. And if you bother to read my post you'll see I clearly mentioned SD BP Leafon.

Not to mention this:

| Weezing | Move | Haze | 8.6 |

Only 8.6% of those already rare Weezing can actually stop Leafon from Baton Passing,

 

[Toaster]

Yes Weezing is pretty much unexistant, you just confirmed what I said with those stats. And if you bother to read my post you'll see I clearly mentioned SD BP Leafon.

Not to mention this:



Only 8.6% of those already rare Weezing can actually stop Leafon from Baton Passing,

well ok you got me there but i was only mentioning these 3 as switch ins like you said on honckrow/roserade

as you can see on my first post before this discussion started that i meant to give you some examples of what can the player do to send out pokemon that can take leafeons hit with ease

 

[Sidd]

Funny how SR/Spin/EQ/Assurance Donphan (beats Ghosts) is setup fodder for NP Honchkrow.

I've heard Dekzeh mention that Dark Pulse/Insomnia should become standard for Honchkrow over Night Slash/Super Luck. If so, what would you use to counter Dark Pulse/Superpower/Sucker Punch/Drill Peck Honchkrow?

Well, Insomnias better in a lot of ways. It can come in on Roserade's Sleep Powder and OHKO back if it's scarfed, it can stop SDVenasaurs just as well since it resists EQ/Seed Bomb.

 

[BurtonEarny]

I've begun using Venusaur on my old team in place of Roserade and it has been doing wonderfully. Its bulky enough to beat Dugtrio if it is near full health, and though the difference in damage output against the likes of Chansey (pursuit bait much) are noticeable as well as its loss of speed in some cases, it still hits very hard and has much more physical bulk, which has proven to be more helpful for me so far this suspect test.

Venusaur @ Life Orb
Modest; 252 Hp/ 236 Sp. Atk./ 20 Spe.
Sleep Powder/ Synthesis/ Sludge Bomb/ Leaf Storm
- This seems like an inferior Roserade, and in some ways it is, but I actually prefer it because it can switch into physical attacks Roserade didn't want to or couldn't(CC's, Pursuit, Waterfall, etc.) while still being able to come in relatively easily against the same things Roserade could (bulky milotic for example). Many people don't expect the LO variant and will bring in some pretty random stuff against her, though Registeel remains a common switch in. Her speed ev's let her all but guarantee that she outruns stall Altaria and can 2HKO after SR damage. RP Torterra cant OHKO and is OHKO'd by Leaf Storm if it takes any SR damage or one LO recoil. Basically she outruns the tanks and walls, while she performs much like one herself against some offensive threats hitting them like a truck so long as they don't resist her STABs. While Natural Cure is nice, LO Overgrow Leaf Storm HURTS.

It could be ev'd faster, but I didn't when I made the spread because I wanted more power + bulk.

 

[d2m]

I've begun using Venusaur on my old team in place of Roserade and it has been doing wonderfully. Its bulky enough to beat Dugtrio if it is near full health, and though the difference in damage output against the likes of Chansey (pursuit bait much) are noticeable as well as its loss of speed in some cases, it still hits very hard and has much more physical bulk, which has proven to be more helpful for me so far this suspect test.

Venusaur @ Life Orb
Modest; 252 Hp/ 236 Sp. Atk./ 20 Spe.
Sleep Powder/ Synthesis/ Sludge Bomb/ Leaf Storm
- This seems like an inferior Roserade, and in some ways it is, but I actually prefer it because it can switch into physical attacks Roserade didn't want to or couldn't(CC's, Pursuit, Waterfall, etc.) while still being able to come in relatively easily against the same things Roserade could (bulky milotic for example). Many people don't expect the LO variant and will bring in some pretty random stuff against her, though Registeel remains a common switch in. Her speed ev's let her all but guarantee that she outruns stall Altaria and can 2HKO after SR damage. RP Torterra cant OHKO and is OHKO'd by Leaf Storm if it takes any SR damage or one LO recoil. Basically she outruns the tanks and walls, while she performs much like one herself against some offensive threats hitting them like a truck so long as they don't resist her STABs. While Natural Cure is nice, LO Overgrow Leaf Storm HURTS.

It could be ev'd faster, but I didn't when I made the spread because I wanted more power + bulk.

Most Venusaurs are free kills for me. Everyone switches them into Milotic and is promptly 2HKO'd by a 252 SpA LO Ice Beam. Sure, it sacrifices some physical bulk, but it's worth it to nail Venusaur and Roserade and beat Crotomb 1 on 1 with Haze.

That said, Magneton is WONDERFUL in this metagame. Sub/Magnet Rise/Tbolt/HP Ice wrecks teams. Traps Registeel and Steelix as long as you don't come in on a T-wave, sets up, then uses 120 base SPA to wreck things. HP Ice over fire because it hits Steelix neutral and Registeel is 3-4HKO'd by T-bolt anyway. Hilarious to sub on the switch, watch Dugtrio, Donphan, or Torterra come in and promptly be OHKO'd. It is, unfortunately, walled by Lanturn who is becoming more and more common.

 

[MagicMaster87]

That said, Magneton is WONDERFUL in this metagame. Sub/Magnet Rise/Tbolt/HP Ice wrecks teams. Traps Registeel and Steelix as long as you don't come in on a T-wave, sets up, then uses 120 base SPA to wreck things. HP Ice over fire because it hits Steelix neutral and Registeel is 3-4HKO'd by T-bolt anyway. Hilarious to sub on the switch, watch Dugtrio, Donphan, or Torterra come in and promptly be OHKO'd. It is, unfortunately, walled by Lanturn who is becoming more and more common.

Seconding everything in that quote, except the bit about OHKO-ing Donphan which I've found isn't true with Leftovers (around 70% for me). Perhaps with LO it can, but then Magneton is going to die way too quickly with Sub and any residual damage. Besides, Magneton outspeeds and resists all of its other commonly-used moves anyways.

@d2m: What Speed do you use for Magneton? Mine is currently sitting at 230 in order to outspeed max+ Omastar outside of rain, but I'm wondering if this is really worth it...

 

[d2m]

Seconding everything in that quote, except the bit about OHKO-ing Donphan which I've found isn't true with Leftovers (around 70% for me). Perhaps with LO it can, but then Magneton is going to die way too quickly with Sub and any residual damage. Besides, Magneton outspeeds and resists all of its other commonly-used moves anyways.

@d2m: What Speed do you use for Magneton? Mine is currently sitting at 230 in order to outspeed max+ Omastar outside of rain, but I'm wondering if this is really worth it...

I run max speed, mostly for standard 56 Spe Milotic, Wallbreaker Nidoking, and standard Nidoqueen as he can either 1-2HKO these 3 or set up on them depending on exactly which set they run. I could drop a few and toss them in HP, but there'd be little point, it doesn't prevent any notable 1-2HKOs, and Max speed is a better investment for random/innovative sets.

And yeah, it's a 2HKO, I was really tired and every game I did last night had him come in at around 60% health.

 

[A.P.]

Lol, every Magneton I've faced has done nothing to me.

They come in on Regirock's SR, and promptly gets OHKO'd by Explosion.

SubDugtrio is very good in this metagame. He only needs to Sub on stuff like Honchkrow, Houndoom, and the Sucker Punchers. Also beats shit like Chansey and Rotom.

 

[Xmagnet]

Dugtrio- A big change in UU, now those fast electric/fire types with hp grass or ice can be outsped. Simply put, prepare for a speedy ice
Donphan- a new SpinRock lead, much better than Sandslash
Umbreon-Lol really? dang it there goes my tank
Crobat- Whoah dang it fighting users beware
Shaymin- Its put in teh right group
Honchkrow- A nice dark/flying type it will soon show its mark

 

[whistle]

i quickly put together a team yesterday before i went to sleep to take advantage of trapping (removing chansey and steel types) because in theory yanmega and swellow would run rampant. it works pretty well and most of the time the main problem is how well i can predict whether to use brave bird or facade with swellow. i've also had some trouble with swellow teams once my registeel gets removed by magneton. more people should try trapping, it's p cool.

specs tinted lens yanmega is a beast. the most popular ways of dealing with it are basically registeel chansey and (my favorite) GET STEALTH ROCK UP EARLY AND KEEP IT THERE. it's got some nice resistances and immunities to switch in on too. not much other than chansey or registeel can safely switch into it barring something like moltres toxicroak drifblim or magneton (or lol electrode), and even those take 40%+ from a 4x resisted attack. timid >>>> modest because of moltres and roserade and the ability to tie houndoom (and beat hp rock leads) and the new rage leafeon.

 

[Folgorio]

Lol, every Magneton I've faced has done nothing to me.

They come in on Regirock's SR, and promptly gets OHKO'd by Explosion.

SubDugtrio is very good in this metagame. He only needs to Sub on stuff like Honchkrow, Houndoom, and the Sucker Punchers. Also beats shit like Chansey and Rotom.

Well, a smart person will probably sub first to check for t-wave and then magnet rise on a predicted EQ. So unless you were fighting someone who didn't know what they were doing...

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I've always found Magneton to be pretty awesome. 14 resistances after Magnet Rise is rather impressive!

Not to mention, it's Special Attack is VERY high.

 

[A.P.]

Actually, it's everyone.
And no one run T-Wave on Regirock.
If you have Stealth Rock, people assume you have SE/Earthquake/Explosion too, and they're usually right, except for the rare RP versions.

 

[Zoro]

huh, why should Magneton switch in Regirock, shouldnt that be Registeel ?

 

[Folgorio]

Actually, it's everyone.
And no one run T-Wave on Regirock.
If you have Stealth Rock, people assume you have SE/Earthquake/Explosion too, and they're usually right, except for the rare RP versions.

Yeah I thought you meant registeel.

 

[d2m]

Speaking of Regirock, Resttalk/Curse/Rock Slide Regirock in the sand is nigh untouchable, I hate that thing.

 

[Peachfuzz]

After playing UU for a few days, many people are suggesting Roserade for BL. I've actually been thinking about this for a while, and I kind of feel that Roserade has a strong case for BL status, even if Honchkrow did come back (it's not slowing Roserade usage much). Roserade's versatility gives it the ability to fit on nearly any kind of team, ranging from pure stall to offensive. Under the characteristics:

Offensive: The Life Orb attacker that was popularized by Heysup a couple of months ago after Crobat and Shaymin left is one of the hardest special attackers to switch in on without Registeel and Chansey, and even then they are slept. Heysup also demonstrated how well it can take out Chansey over the course of a few turns, clearing its own path. The Life Orb attacker is a menace to both offensive and stall teams. The Choice Scarf set can reach 459 speed, effectively revenge killing many rain dance sweepers such as Ludicolo, Omastar, and Gorebyss. The Choice Scarf set can do well vs. more general offensive teams, only fearing priority attacks, other faster Scarfers (Typhlosion and TrickScarf Mismagius is about it), and faster Yanmega, who usually needs two speed boosts with the EV spreads people are commonly running.

Support: the various Spiker sets (Subseed, Synthesis) can get up three layers of spikes fairly easily. Roserade doesn't care for Donphan and defensive Hitmontop. It can get in nicely on bulky waters and repeatedly Spike and recover. It sets up rather easily on many members of stall teams, only getting blocked by opposing Roserade.

I'm still on the fence about Roserade though. Even though Honchkrow and Dugtrio have come into UU, they haven't really done much to curb Roserade usage yet. It still has the low defense, making it very vulnerable to Pursuit users. I don't think it can sweep "with little effort", even with the Life Orb set, but I'm still thinking about its fulfillment of the support characteristic.

Other things:
- Counter Regirock is fun. It completely mocks Donphan and defensive Hitmontop. It also only takes around 70% from Technitop's Close Combat. Very fun to use if you want to keep entry hazards on the field.
- I've been using Honchkrow a bit more than before, and I still don't get why it got sent to Limbo. Even though the Life Orb sets are scary, they are very frail and vulnerable to residual damage.
- Stall teams are still doing very well for themselves in the tier, and are still the preferred team of choice. But it seems lately people have been devising more methods of taking them on. It's not just Blaziken and Pursuit users -> strong special attackers anymore. Other moves such as Taunt and Encore are being utilized more. An example of this is Taunt Mismagius. The set has been gaining usage lately to anti-metagame vs. stall teams prepared for the old Sub/CM Missy. Fast Encore users such as Lopunny and Jumpluff have been getting used more to mess up teams. This is a strong sign that the tier is developing, with people finding new ways to go against the norm and use innovative sets to stay ahead of the metagame.

 

[d2m]

After playing UU for a few days, many people are suggesting Roserade for BL. I've actually been thinking about this for a while, and I kind of feel that Roserade has a strong case for BL status, even if Honchkrow did come back (it's not slowing Roserade usage much). Roserade's versatility gives it the ability to fit on nearly any kind of team, ranging from pure stall to offensive. Under the characteristics:

Offensive: The Life Orb attacker that was popularized by Heysup a couple of months ago after Crobat and Shaymin left is one of the hardest special attackers to switch in on without Registeel and Chansey, and even then they are slept. Heysup also demonstrated how well it can take out Chansey over the course of a few turns, clearing its own path. The Life Orb attacker is a menace to both offensive and stall teams. The Choice Scarf set can reach 459 speed, effectively revenge killing many rain dance sweepers such as Ludicolo, Omastar, and Gorebyss. The Choice Scarf set can do well vs. more general offensive teams, only fearing priority attacks, other faster Scarfers (Typhlosion and TrickScarf Mismagius is about it), and faster Yanmega, who usually needs two speed boosts with the EV spreads people are commonly running.

Support: the various Spiker sets (Subseed, Synthesis) can get up three layers of spikes fairly easily. Roserade doesn't care for Donphan and defensive Hitmontop. It can get in nicely on bulky waters and repeatedly Spike and recover. It sets up rather easily on many members of stall teams, only getting blocked by opposing Roserade.

I'm still on the fence about Roserade though. Even though Honchkrow and Dugtrio have come into UU, they haven't really done much to curb Roserade usage yet. It still has the low defense, making it very vulnerable to Pursuit users. I don't think it can sweep "with little effort", even with the Life Orb set, but I'm still thinking about its fulfillment of the support characteristic.

It can't "sweep with little effort" when the attack everyone fears lowers her SpA by 2 stages, it may be able to revenge kill or set up spikes, but that's it. It dies to a Honchkrow Sucker Punch or Drill Peck whatever the case may be, and he's STILL not even OHKO'd by a LO Leaf Storm unless SR is up [(71.26% - 84.16%)]. Without krow, Roserade lost a counter, and that was why it was so powerful. Not to mention Moltres who speed ties with Roserade, can OHKO with one of two STAB attacks, and even with min SpD and no HP investment only takes (25.55% - 30.22%) from Leaf Storm.

As for coming in on bulky waters: 252 SpA LO Milotic Ice Beam:(81.99% - 97.32%), which has over a 50% chance to OHKO after rocks. If it catches this one on the switch in, it's done.

The one who does have a strong case for BL is Yanmega. It performs extremely well as a lead, with Sub/Petaya, and with Specs/Tinted Lens and can OHKO or 2HKO everything not named Registeel or Chansey if it picks the right moves. Sub/Petaya set counters Sucker Punchers as well, and that is by far the #1 priority move in UU. It's only weakness (which is why it's not OU) is the 50% from SR, which can benefit the sub/Petaya set and limits the rest to either leading or endgame sweeping. It can destroy any unprepared team with minimal effort, and even foil teams with several layers of defense by wearing them down and sweeping late game.

 

[Thund91]

^Agree with Yanmega. And even if you prepare for it it can just hax it's way through it's counters.

 

[Stagnant]

Alright time for a brief overview of UU from my perspective...

Earlier throughout UU I was using a Jynx lead set to great success. Ice Beam + Psychic + Lovely Kiss covers damn near everything and I recommend giving it a try.

There has already been a discussion about Houndoom but I feel I might as well reiterate. Mix Doom is your best bet if your looking at using Houndoom.
Pursuit + Dark Pulse + Fire Blast + Sucker Punch comforatbly handles most situations. Mix Doom can function well as your Trick bait and trapper (through the use of Pursuit and Sucker Punch). I suggest having Stealth Rock up though to significantly increase your chance at OHKO towards Dugtrio.

Mismaggy has seen a decline in usuage as well as Blaziken most likely due to Donphan.

Lopunny Leads are surprisingly effective. The fear of Switcheroo (Flame Orb) and Encore forces a lot of switches.

Milotic is seeing a verfy high amount of uses... which is no surprsise.

Despite Honchkrows re-entry to UU there really havent been a surge of uses.

uhm thats all for now

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

It can't "sweep with little effort" when the attack everyone fears lowers her SpA by 2 stages, it may be able to revenge kill or set up spikes, but that's it. It dies to a Honchkrow Sucker Punch or Drill Peck whatever the case may be, and he's STILL not even OHKO'd by a LO Leaf Storm unless SR is up [(71.26% - 84.16%)]. Without krow, Roserade lost a counter, and that was why it was so powerful. Not to mention Moltres who speed ties with Roserade, can OHKO with one of two STAB attacks, and even with min SpD and no HP investment only takes (25.55% - 30.22%) from Leaf Storm.

As for coming in on bulky waters: 252 SpA LO Milotic Ice Beam:(81.99% - 97.32%), which has over a 50% chance to OHKO after rocks. If it catches this one on the switch in, it's done.

And if you catch Rayquaza on the switch, you have an exceedingly strong chance to KO as well. Free Rayquaza, anyone? Stealth Rock should be considered up; it's a common enough battle condition, and when you consider the fact that said Roserade can switch out, forcing you to decide between Pursuit or Sucker Punch, Honchkrow becomes a much less attractive counter.

While Roserade doesn't necessarily sweep with ease on its own, it can easily tear holes into any team. Name a Pokemon other than Chansey, Drapion, or Registeel who doesn't take massive damage from Leaf Storm or Sludge Bomb (incidentally, all 3 Pokemon are pretty susceptible to Dugtrio). Moltres taking at least a quarter of damage from a 4x resisted attack is nothing to scoff at.

 

[Thund91]

And if you catch Rayquaza on the switch, you have an exceedingly strong chance to KO as well. Free Rayquaza, anyone? Stealth Rock should be considered up; it's a common enough battle condition, and when you consider the fact that said Roserade can switch out, forcing you to decide between Pursuit or Sucker Punch, Honchkrow becomes a much less attractive counter.

While Roserade doesn't necessarily sweep with ease on its own, it can easily tear holes into any team. Name a Pokemon other than Chansey, Drapion, or Registeel who doesn't take massive damage from Leaf Storm or Sludge Bomb (incidentally, all 3 Pokemon are pretty susceptible to Dugtrio). Moltres taking at least a quarter of damage from a 4x resisted attack is nothing to scoff at.

I just find that having something to absorb that Leaf Storm is very helpful. Your own defensive Roserade and Registeel can soak up that Leaf Storm, and after that it's attacks get much weaker, letting something else switch in easier.

I find Altaria to do decent, Muk can take a few hits as well, and hit it with Poison Jab/Ice Punch or force it out. Although very rare, Wormadam-S is a 100% counter to any Roserade without Hidden Power Fire, as it 4x resists Leaf Storm, is immune to Sludge Bomb, and can hit it back with STAB Gyro Ball. Offensive Roserade are also very easily harmed by priority attacks, mainly Sucker Punch and Technitop can take it out with Fake Out + Bullet Punch without even getting hit.

I agree, it's really strong, but so is Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega and SD Absol, but they're all manageable.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I'm glad to see this thread heading in the right direction with the last few posts :)

I'll just mention a few quick things I noticed from playing:

Regigigas is no joke. Only one opponent so far has been able to stop me from getting its act together, and that was because his Yanmega critted and then flinched me :(. Milotic and Registeel can't even break its substitutes. Even after the Slow Start glitch was fixed, this thing is still near unstoppable. Sub/Twave/Confuse Ray/Return is an amazing set as long as your team can handle ghosts...even if you dont sweep singlehandedly as I have done on a bunch of occasions now, you are at least putting a massive hole in your opp's team and spreading paralysis too.

Honchkrow got a bit worse, imo, thanks to Super Luck being fixed. It is still one of the most dangerous mons in the tier, though, with its amazing dual STABs and Sucker Punch to eliminate sweeps.

Roserade is good, but let's not jump the gun here. Any Poison-type will force Roserade out. It is fast but far from unbeatable, and it has no movepool. Grass+Poison are really bad STABs to have. Can we stop acting like any pokemon that can set Spikes up is broken? 2 weeks ago everyone was just talking about how entry hazards would be dead with Donphan around...

speaking of Donphan, it is a very solid addition to the tier. It has the defense to live through pretty much any physical attack, its just a matter of if you want some physical bulk or attacking power. The fact that it can beat spinblockers is useful too, with Assurance for Rotom/Mismagius and Roar/EQ to beat Spiritomb. If you choose to go defensive, there is a chance that you can't break Torterra's substitutes with Ice Shard, though....

Dugtrio has been good but not great. Just like I predicted, it has the same problems in UU as it did in OU. It is the easiest pokemon in the world to set up on, it can't OHKO anything with a respectable defense stat, and it can't switch into anything (it's seriously 2hkod by Seismic Toss + SR). It relies on its teammates way too much to be a dominant force in the metagame, but that isn't to say that its not useful.

SubCharge Rotom is also amazing in my experience. It comes into Chansey for free, Registeel can't break its subs either, and by the time they get around to countering it they have already lost half of their team. It singlehandedly breaks through Stall teams.

Right now, I personally don't think that there are any suspects in the metagame (and I'm not the only person who has said this). Nothing I have used or seen has been overwhelmingly impressive. I don't think that we should be "looking for suspects", and I don't think that is a good mentality to have. If anything, UU might GROW this time around if people add new BLs into the tier, instead of shrinking like it has every other time.

 

[MagicMaster87]

Even after the Slow Start glitch was fixed, this thing is still near unstoppable.

If you don't mind me asking, what was the Slow Start glitch?

Honchkrow got a bit worse, imo, thanks to Super Luck being fixed. It is still one of the most dangerous mons in the tier, though, with its amazing dual STABs and Sucker Punch to eliminate sweeps.

I'm starting to wish it hadn't been fixed, Insomnia is becoming too common now and it rapes my Jumpluff. :(

SubCharge Rotom is also amazing in my experience. It comes into Chansey for free, Registeel can't break its subs either, and by the time they get around to countering it they have already lost half of their team. It singlehandedly breaks through Stall teams.

This sounds rather interesting. I assume you mean Charge Beam and not Charge? I wonder if Mismagius could pull off a similar set, even though it doesn't get STAB on Charge Beam... What exact set do you run?

 

[jrrrrrrr]

If you don't mind me asking, what was the Slow Start glitch?

Slow Start was glitched so that a few things happened:

1) After Regigigas got its act together and switched out, it would still maintain its doubled stats upon switching back in, even though the Slow Start message would reappear. So essentially, Slow Start never wore off.
2) If it got its act together twice, its stats would double AGAIN. This doubling effect happened infinitely. I tested it with ReyScarface and I was OHKOing his Registeels with Facade, we got the damage to double 4 times so it wasn't just restricted to getting to +6+6. So, in addition to never wearing off, it stacked boosts on itself.

The glitch was fixed, though, so it's nothing to worry about.

This sounds rather interesting. I assume you mean Charge Beam and not Charge? I wonder if Mismagius could pull off a similar set, even though it doesn't get STAB on Charge Beam... What exact set do you run?

Yeah, Sub/Charge Beam/HP Fighting/Shadow Ball