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np: UU - Higher Ground

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Darn maybe thats because i run stone edge on my registeel. I never even noticed a problem. since its easy Ohkoes.
Thats weird because Registeel doesnt even learn Stone Edge.

Anyway I made a team abusing Spikes + lots of switching and have found that Swords Dance Kabutops is an absolute monster. If i keep SR up i easily beat Yanmega teams (i have 2 spinblockers so this is p easy). Most Donphan don't even run Def anymore so I can do a shitload with Waterfall even unboosted. I am almost tempted to try out that Mix Dance Lapras, but I'm also curious to see if Curse/Ice Shard/Waterfall/Rest with a Heal Beller is useful.

Also Taunt / CM / TBolt / Shadow Ball Mismagius is an absolute monster vs stall since most people play Drapion way too recklessly.
 
pkmn1000, this is a serious discussion. Nobody cares about what hacked Pokemon you use over Wi-Fi, it isn't helping the Yanmega discussion at all.

EDIT:

You are missing the point here. I said Yanmega fucks up a play-style (in this case heavy offense) because it basically forces you to slap a Milotic/Registeel/Chansey on a team JUST FOR IT since it's the only threat you can't reliable 'check' with revenge killers or priority.
So just out of curiosity, why isn't your offensive team carrying one of these pokes?

On a related note, I've found Moltres and Rotom to be decent Yanmega checks on an offensive team in the past.
 
First because those Pokémons don't fit an offensive team (which is exactly why I think Yanmega is a bitch, there are no 'offensive' counters/checks/whatever you call it for it), those walls also slow down the team and give free switches to powerfull sweepers that I can't afford to switch into more then once (think Blaziken or LO Roserade).

Also because I run an absurd amount of priority (mostly just for Yanmega, for example I'd totally go with Pursuit > Quick Attack on Scyther and seriously consider Gatr over Azumarill if it wasn't for it).

EDIT: Moltres kinda works if SR isn't down and you switch on a Bug Buzz, yes. Rotom can't really switch in unless it's defensive. It takes a shitload from LO Bug Buzz, it fits as a solid revenge killer I guess. Both are big 'ifs' tho...
 
As I said before, I've been using Yanmega myself and it's an absolute monster, but I'm not quite convinced it fits the offensive characteristic. Yanmega still has a difficult time getting past Chansey and Registeel, while Stealth Rock will prevent it from switching in too often if you have a way to deal with Donphan.
 
Thats weird because Registeel doesnt even learn Stone Edge.

Anyway I made a team abusing Spikes + lots of switching and have found that Swords Dance Kabutops is an absolute monster. If i keep SR up i easily beat Yanmega teams (i have 2 spinblockers so this is p easy). Most Donphan don't even run Def anymore so I can do a shitload with Waterfall even unboosted. I am almost tempted to try out that Mix Dance Lapras, but I'm also curious to see if Curse/Ice Shard/Waterfall/Rest with a Heal Beller is useful.

Also Taunt / CM / TBolt / Shadow Ball Mismagius is an absolute monster vs stall since most people play Drapion way too recklessly.

If you're gonna go for the mixed dancer, I think you should change the EV spread. Even with 32SpA ev's and LO, it missed out on the 2HKO on Slowbro with Thunderbolt, and the OHKO on offensive Roserade.

I run that exact same Curse set on one of my teams, and it's a monster. It's too bad Milotic is like, everywhere.
 
First because those Pokémons don't fit an offensive team (which is exactly why I think Yanmega is a bitch, there are no 'offensive' counters/checks/whatever you call it for it), those walls also slow down the team and give free switches to powerfull sweepers that I can't afford to switch into more then once (think Blaziken or LO Roserade).

Also because I run an absurd amount of priority (mostly just for Yanmega, for example I'd totally go with Pursuit > Quick Attack on Scyther and seriously consider Gatr over Azumarill if it wasn't for it).

No, the point wasn't that one of these Pokemon would make your team better, it was to note the contradiction in your posts.

First:

heavy offense is really the way to go now in my opinion

Then:

Yanmega fucks up a play-style (in this case heavy offense)

So you're saying that the best strategy in this metagame is the one that Yanmega fucks up? If you're claiming that Yanmega is broken because of its effect on heavy offense, then your argument has no credibility from the start. Yanmega should be forcing a huge shift to bulky offense or stall if that was the case, and certainly no heavy offense should be capable of reaching #2 on the ladder.
 
As I said before, I've been using Yanmega myself and it's an absolute monster, but I'm not quite convinced it fits the offensive characteristic. Yanmega still has a difficult time getting past Chansey and Registeel, while Stealth Rock will prevent it from switching in too often if you have a way to deal with Donphan.

It does fit it, having 2 solid counters means it can defeat a major portion of the metagame. Even Registeel itself suffers from a 3HKO on a Specs Bug Buzz, meaning when you catch it significantly weakened its doomed. Blowing a big hole on your team and can sweep with ease. I do agree that SR prevents it from doing much but it doesn't stop it from wrecking havoc.
 
No, the point wasn't that one of these Pokemon would make your team better, it was to note the contradiction in your posts.

First:



Then:



So you're saying that the best strategy in this metagame is the one that Yanmega fucks up? If you're claiming that Yanmega is broken because of its effect on heavy offense, then your argument has no credibility from the start. Yanmega should be forcing a huge shift to bulky offense or stall if that was the case, and certainly no heavy offense should be capable of reaching #2 on the ladder.

So if I say "Yanmega ruins heavy offense UNLESS you run an absurd amount of priority and even when you prepare that much it still guarantees at least one kill per match." That's pretty much what I've been saying (or trying to) in the last post, I'm just really bad with words...

And to be fair most teams on the ladder are 'bulky offense' (think those Donphan, Yanmega, Roserade, Milotic ones..).

As I said before, I've been using Yanmega myself and it's an absolute monster, but I'm not quite convinced it fits the offensive characteristic. Yanmega still has a difficult time getting past Chansey and Registeel, while Stealth Rock will prevent it from switching in too often if you have a way to deal with Donphan.

As I've been saying having counters =/= not being broken. Especially because no of the counters can fit into heavy offense and Yanmega fucks up with the definition of revenge killing and 'checking', forcing you to either always sacrifice one or two pokes or run one of those specific counters (which don't fit into one playstyle >.<).
 
I'd like to note (again) that Cloyster's Ice Shard does 50% minimum to Specs Yanmega. This is assuming Cloyster runs max Attack and an Expert Belt. I guess this is "overspecialized", but STAB Ice Shard is also useful on things like Roserade, Dugtrio, or Dragon Dance Altaria, so it's not as if Yanmega is the only reason to run max Attack.

Bulky TrickSpecs Mismagius works well on offensive teams I've found. It provides an acceptable check to both kinds of Yanmega. It can block Donphan's spin and threaten with Shadow Ball. Best of all, it can strip Chansey or Registeel of their Shed Shells to allow them to be trapped (though that applies more towards Registeel as Chansey has no business in switching into any kind of Mismagius).
 
after using yanmega with a spinner i'm changing my previous comments about having a spinner not mattering. a 1 HP yanmega is still really hard to switch into but the amount of priority and even powerful stab attacks a full health yanmega survives is ridiculous. cb tauros return doesn't ohko (at least I think those tauroses were CB), cb piloswine ice shard barely does more than half, cb azumarill aqua jet does around half, max attack donphan ice shard does 30%, etc etc. this means it's much harder for an offensive team to take out yanmega with sacrifices and priority because if SR is not up it can always switch out of an impending ice shard or aqua jet and come back later to kill something else. also makes it much harder to revenge kill with something like a scarf rotom (seriously if anyone competent switches rotom into a yanmega after a KO are you *not* going to think "scarf tbolt"?).

@ august / Lapras comment -- I've been using that exact Lapras on one of my teams (albeit without Heal Bell support because I'm not smart enough to think of that). the main problems from that set come from when I'm forced to Rest without having scouted their team which I guess a Heal Beller should fix. IMO Ice Shard is much better than Toxic (SDS set) because Toxic is literally only useful for Haze Milotic because you can beat all other Milotic and Slowbro (other than rest/talk which Toxic does nothing against) by outlasting their recovery move's PP. Ice Shard lets you KO pesky Roserade and Yanmega, use waterfall/ice shard to kill things after they've hit you once instead of twice, and generally have a cool move that bypasses the negative aspect of Curse.

also uhmm. how do you guys "deal with" teams that spikestack? most of my teams kind of just fall apart against them and I have no idea what to do to fix that =\.

@ dekzeh -- yeah my post was focused on the difference between play style but now that you mention it those two pokemon *were* pretty completely useless against offense which is probably also one of the reasons I ditched them.

@ pkmn1000 -- "lol"

I had a response to the lemmiwinks / dekzeh debate typed up but I think Erazor said what I was going to say perfectly. the problem isn't necessarily that Yanmega arguably screws up offense. the problem is the *reason* Yanmega screws up offense.
 
The way I deal with Spikestacking/Stall is basically never using anything that allows Roserade to switch in safely PLUS I also have Rapid Spin Donphan with Pursuit Houndoom support, so it's never much of a problem.

Stall teams with Omastar are much harder to deal with, but that's just for me for focusing on not letting Rose switch in...
 
also uhmm. how do you guys "deal with" teams that spikestack? most of my teams kind of just fall apart against them and I have no idea what to do to fix that =\.

Teams that rely on heavy Spikes layering are a massive threat in the metagame, and they are really the first thing I prepare for when making a team before I think of any specific Pokemon threats. People say that spinning is easy in UU but I don't agree at all. All the good spinners are grounded, and with the ease with which you can layer spikes against the average balanced / defensive team, they will be taking a lot of damage coming in as it is. A lot of good players are wising up and running dual ghosts as well on teams that rely on Spikes, Spiritomb + Mismagius / Rotom, so that even Foresight Hitmontop and Odor Sleuth Donphan don't have anything like a "guaranteed spin".

I've found that the best way to stay alive against Spikes teams is to stick to the old saying "prevention is better than cure". It's far easier to try and stop the Spikes from going up than it is to get rid of them once they have. While this is very hard to do on defensive teams with Crobat's removal (and this is the very reason I think stall is slowly becoming a lesser strategy - opposing Spikes. When I was playing about with stall Roserade was easily the single scariest Pokemon to have to face), more offensively inclined ones have more than enough tools at hand to keep the pressure on the opponent and not give free turns. Taunt is an excellent move against most kinds of teams, and UU has a lot good users of it that can really help against Spike stacking: Mismagius, Drapion, Toxicroak, Sneasel, Houndoom, and Magmortar can all be used very effectively.
 
I've been using an entry hazard abuse offensive team and have been noticing that people are going the other way around, going for the cure instead of the prevention. People want to try to slowly wear down the spiker, giving it lots of free turns to lay spikes and then spin. A VERY common situation is when I switch omastar into Regirock and get 3 layers as they try to EQ it to death, and right after that they want to bring Donphan in and spin it all away as if having a spin blocker was unlikely.
Regarding what to do against it, it's pretty much what has been said before: not letting spikes come down easily. Having something that can scare spikers away (Omastar, Roserade, the rarer Cloyster and the almost non-existant Cacturne) should guarantee you to have an easier time against these teams.
(Pursuiters and spinners, of course, make the job much easier, but are not necessary)
 
My heavy offense involves around spikestacking and being deployed early in the match. I could care less if I get hit, I just use Stealth Rock and Spikes until I die. This way, you grab some sweepers to force switch-outs and rack up damage. "Spikestacking" is really the spotlight in UU right now as I climbed up the ladder with so much ease today (no boast intended) on a alt accont. People should try it out.

How to get rid of them? Use CB Dugtrio, which take out almost every common Spike user. Most Spike users tend to use its supports move rather than attacking, in this case switching-in Dugtrio on Roserade or Omastar shouldn't be too hard.
 
As another note from my odd-ass team: Mr. Mime outspeeds (or ties) with all spikers and can Taunt and set up Dual Screens on all of them with little problem.
 
The problem with CB Duggy is that there are too many dangerous foes given free switches. So after you take out my Spikes Roserade with STAB EQ, I'm bringing in Specs Mega for free. Try switching into it. Or Moltres happily sets up a Sub. Or Torterra sets up a Rock Polish. Hell, old school CM Missy that everyone has forgotten about.
My point is, CB Duggy may end up doing more harm than good. Of course, if you are insured against all these threats, then disregard this post :)
 
MoP, Duggy needs Jolly to be as effective. Otherwise he's outrun by base 115s, notably Ambipom, and i think the +speed 110s as well.
 
Teams that rely on heavy Spikes layering are a massive threat in the metagame, and they are really the first thing I prepare for when making a team before I think of any specific Pokemon threats. People say that spinning is easy in UU but I don't agree at all. All the good spinners are grounded, and with the ease with which you can layer spikes against the average balanced / defensive team, they will be taking a lot of damage coming in as it is. A lot of good players are wising up and running dual ghosts as well on teams that rely on Spikes, Spiritomb + Mismagius / Rotom, so that even Foresight Hitmontop and Odor Sleuth Donphan don't have anything like a "guaranteed spin".

I've found that the best way to stay alive against Spikes teams is to stick to the old saying "prevention is better than cure". It's far easier to try and stop the Spikes from going up than it is to get rid of them once they have. While this is very hard to do on defensive teams with Crobat's removal (and this is the very reason I think stall is slowly becoming a lesser strategy - opposing Spikes. When I was playing about with stall Roserade was easily the single scariest Pokemon to have to face), more offensively inclined ones have more than enough tools at hand to keep the pressure on the opponent and not give free turns. Taunt is an excellent move against most kinds of teams, and UU has a lot good users of it that can really help against Spike stacking: Mismagius, Drapion, Toxicroak, Sneasel, Houndoom, and Magmortar can all be used very effectively.
Although true. Claydol just look around........He has levitate, resistance to rock (stealthrock). But he's not really what you call; "Usefull in a minute" at all. He was better in old UU
 
Interesting how everyone is making teams based on entry hazards now, when at the beginning of this thread, everyone was saying how setting anything up was a waste because donphan would spin it away. I myself am running mismagius, spiritomb, and dusclops, so donphan won't spin anytime soom.
 
there is honestly no reason to run a missy dusclops and spiritomb on the same team. Dusclops only belongs on stall, where he can have some decent recovery being able to afford losing some coverage due to the rest of the team. If you're running stall, you'll have one spot taken for your spiker at least, if you're that worried about not losing hazards, which leaves two pokemon left to cover all of UU. You need something to cover Blaziken who switches into Spiritomb all day, and doesn't mind a Band or Scarf, so you have one free team slot. Saying that you made a stupid team with three Ghosts didn't contribute anything to UU discussion.

The real reason of this post:

Milotic walls so much of the metagame, does anyone think it comes close to the Defensive criteria? It's a great bulky water, and a staple on most UU teams. I honestly think if it wasn't for Roserade and maybe Venusaur or Rotom we'd be calling for Milotic to be banned. I just want to guage how the community feels about it.
 
The real reason of this post:

Milotic walls so much of the metagame, does anyone think it comes close to the Defensive criteria? It's a great bulky water, and a staple on most UU teams. I honestly think if it wasn't for Roserade and maybe Venusaur or Rotom we'd be calling for Milotic to be banned. I just want to guage how the community feels about it.

I don't run any of those on my current team, and unless Milotic is running Hydro Pump and LO, I haven't had any problems taking it out (in fact, the only Pokemon on my team with a SE attack is Lapras with Thunderbolt). Anything with decent Sp. Def and Toxic can stall out non-Rest versions, while Lapras can stall out ones without a SE Hidden Power (or Toxic, if you don't use Heal Bell/Rest). Or you could simply try to outmuscle it, which isn't all that hard if you use the Spikestacking tactic mentioned in previous posts.
 
I think this metagame is getting more and more interesting...I think I'll try to build a team. Somebody knows the top 10 threats at the moment?
 
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