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np: UU - Higher Ground
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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That's no use, seeing as Hitmonlee can't take hits from Houndoom.
And d2m, doesn't Hariyama beat StallRein? At least break its subs?
Hariyama can also WW it out on a substitute turn, costing it the Substitute HP and the HP to come in on SR next turn.
I was talking 'bout Stallrein o_O; he can easily kill stallrein at any HP level as long as Sub isn't up. Where a different pokemon in my team takes care off ;)
But d2m was talking about a check for Houndoom.
Hitmonlee checks Houndoom with Mach punch
This is why I love running Chople berry. :]
No more Hitmontop and Hitmonlee ruining my sweep. Azu is still annoying. >:(
Well...Weezing covers all the physical threats you mentioned, and Registeel covers most of the special ones. People need to use RegiWeeze more. (protip: pack a Houndoom counter).
Oh and whats a LOTress 0_o?
Oh and whats a LOTress 0_o?
I believe that would be LO Moltres with an extra s, or perhaps pluralized.
Pokemon I think should be banned:
Yanmega
Moltres
Rotom
And not just because my team is weak to them, they are to overpowered. I feel like if we kick them out, the metagame would be so much better. Though to avoid all issues, I'm gonna start using yanmega in OU, hoping it gets back in. Speaking of which, roserade is only a little bit away from OU. That coul really shake things up.
Yanmega
Moltres
Rotom
And not just because my team is weak to them, they are to overpowered. I feel like if we kick them out, the metagame would be so much better. Though to avoid all issues, I'm gonna start using yanmega in OU, hoping it gets back in. Speaking of which, roserade is only a little bit away from OU. That coul really shake things up.
I won't pull you up on Yanmega, or even Moltres, but can you provide a reasonable explanation as to why Rotom should be banned? We don't ban things because we "prefer a metagame without them", we ban things that break the Uber characteristics.
At this point I can only see 2 suspects that really stand out:
Yanmega for offensive and Milotic for defensive.
Seriously, Milotic walls anything that doesn't have a very strong and/or 2x effective STAB attack coming off their higher stat and hitting her lower defensive stat. (ie: a Modest Roserade's Energy Ball does (44.16% - 52.28%) to a Specially Defensive Milotic). Add that to instant recovery, Marvel Scale (Adamant Tangrowth's Power Whip vs statused Milotic: (51.78% - 60.91%)), Marvel Scale supplementing Restalk, Hypnosis, Refresh, Haze, and to cap it all off: decent SpA and coverage. It checks or straight out counters nearly the entire tier.
Registeel is similar in it's checking abilities, however, with the addition of Dugtrio, the existence of Magneton and it's weakness to Fighting and Ground, 2 common attack types, it is much easier to take out than Milo.
Yanmega for offensive and Milotic for defensive.
Seriously, Milotic walls anything that doesn't have a very strong and/or 2x effective STAB attack coming off their higher stat and hitting her lower defensive stat. (ie: a Modest Roserade's Energy Ball does (44.16% - 52.28%) to a Specially Defensive Milotic). Add that to instant recovery, Marvel Scale (Adamant Tangrowth's Power Whip vs statused Milotic: (51.78% - 60.91%)), Marvel Scale supplementing Restalk, Hypnosis, Refresh, Haze, and to cap it all off: decent SpA and coverage. It checks or straight out counters nearly the entire tier.
Registeel is similar in it's checking abilities, however, with the addition of Dugtrio, the existence of Magneton and it's weakness to Fighting and Ground, 2 common attack types, it is much easier to take out than Milo.
Very correct, banning occurs when there are no reliable counters to such threats.
Yanmega is gimped by Stealth Rocks and steel types for the Speed Boost variation, scarfers for the Specs variation. 'Mega is worth debate for suspect.
Moltres is VERY similar to Yanmega in this respect; Stealth Rock gimp and many viable counters.
Rotom very much belongs to UU. Once it's moveset is discriminated, it becomes easier to counter. Trick can be predicted, and special walls and sleeptalkers shut it down.
The other Pokemon worth debate for suspect is Milotic who requires a team designed to take it down. Sleeptalk Lanturn is a decent counter.
I don't think that Milotic is ban worthy. As Lemmiwinks pointed out - it's annoyingly sturdy, but quite a bit can set up on it. It gets torn to pieces by Rain teams, Toxicroak, Rotom, SubCM Mismagius(w/ Thunderbolt, non-Haze variants), Leafeon, Roserade... That's quite a few checks already. Not to mention it detests Toxic. It's a fantastic bulky water, but no more than that.
And Stealth Rock isn't honestly a good argument for not banning a pokemon these days, because you're simply not guaranteed to have it up at all.
And Stealth Rock isn't honestly a good argument for not banning a pokemon these days, because you're simply not guaranteed to have it up at all.
I kind of agree with the "And Stealth Rock isn't honestly a good argument for not banning a pokemon these days, because you're simply not guaranteed to have it up at all." for the UU tier. The UU tier in itself is a lot different from the OU tier, it has it's own metagame, and it's own playstyles. A lot of teams carry a Foresight Rapid Spinner, so that basically takes away the aspect of carrying a Rapid Spinner, bar dual-ghost teams. With SR not being in play as much as it is in other tiers, i really don't think people should not ban any pokemon for the sole reason is that it's SR weak. -.-
I think it's a given that Stealth Rock can and likely will be set up for the duration of the battle and should be considered as an argument for a Pokemon's brokeness. However in Yanmega's case I think it's still broken even when Stealth Rock is in play. Even with Stealth Rock, SpecsMega still gets 3 Attacking turns. And don't kid, 3 Yanmega attacks will likely result in 3 opposing Pokemon being fainted. So yes, stealth rock matters a lot and is a valid argument, but Yanmega is still broken even with Stealth Rock in play.
You gotta stop hating on my Milo, B. ;_;
Agreeing about Yanmega, but why exactly is SR a given? This isn't OU. Foresight Hitmontop will get a spin off no matter how many ghosts you carry, and Donphan is likely to spin as well, seeing as it can take out Ghost switch ins with Assurance.
edit: also long time no see in UU, Heysup :)
I agree with the SR assessment, since Yanmega and Moltres still wreak havoc at 50% (and most Moltres carry Roost).
Now Milotic, I'm iffy about. First you mention counters;
Roserade- Best counter
Toxicroak-Milo is set up bait, takes Ice beam pretty well
Leafeon- Takes a ton from Ice Beam, an LOtic might even OHKO and offensive Leafeon (havent done the calcs)
Rain Teams- Really? Milotic is usually checking Rain teams, since it'll stall out the rain vs Omastar and Gorebyss, while Ludicolo needs Grass Knot (or SD) to beat Milotic . Kabutops is definitely a switch.
Missy- Milo w/ Haze counters it, not vice versa. Besides, barely anyone still uses Sub-CM, and even less with Tbolt compared to the amount of Haze Milotic.
Rotom- Over time Milotic beats Rotom since it has recovery, but it get forced out.
Yeah it hates Toxic, but then there's the incredibly durable Rest Talk version (not to mention clerics on a stall team). But of course, Milotic can't run 4 sets at once, and it's counters really depend on the set. Still not positive on my stance on Milotic.
If Leafeon gets in on Recover or Surf, it Koes with Leaf Blade. It does take a lot from Ice Beam, but then so does Roserade.
About Rain Dance, I find that it's easy to get Milotic out of the way. Quilfish and Registeel blow up on sight(admittedly, not a counter), and it can't take repeated assaults from Ludicolo and Omastar/Gorebyss. Ok, maybe it's not as easy as I initially made it out to be, but it's manageable.
Milotic is no where near broken in this tier. It doesn't even wall a majority of the metagame. There only surefire suspect right now is Yanmega, but although lately, I've been leaning towards Registeel, Curse versions in particular are god damn broken.
Leafeon Leaf Blade vs Defensive milotic: (54.82% - 64.47%)
Defensive Milotic Surf vs Leafeon: (25.46% - 29.89%)
Defensive Milotic Ice Beam vs Leafeon: (71.59% - 84.87%)
Food for thought. It may not be a straight counter at 100%, but it can't come in on Surf or Ice Beam and survive (with SR up), but it puts it in revenging range for damn near any priority if it comes in on Recover. Both Offensive Roserade and Leafeon are OHKO'd by LO Versions with SR up.
From experience: Toxicroak can get off 1 NP and 2 Sludge Bomb/HP Fightings and kill Milotic, but end up at ~20% from 2 Ice Beams even if it switches in on Surf.
Really, though, one variant of Milotic can wall almost any version of any poke in UU. Obviously it can't run all sets at once, but still, that's cause for concern.
I think Yanmega is a definite suspect, and the only other I'm seriously considering right now is Milotic.
It can wall most of the metagame easily. Other then defensive Roserade / Venusaur nothing is a 100% counter to be honest.
From the top 50 most used in UU, Milotic walls (or at least beats-one-on-one) without much problems the following:
Registeel, Mismagius, Uxie, Yanmega, Blaziken, Hitmontop, Ambipom, Azumarill, Spiritomb, Steelix, Arcanine, Claydol, Altaria, Moltres, Houndoom, Feraligatr, Weezing, Dugtrio, Regirock, Kabutops, Scyther, Miltank, Donphan, Nidoking, Typhlosion, Drifblim, Nidoqueen.
That's 27 out of 49 (didn't include Milotic on the list). Now from the other 23, lets see how many can actually switch into Milotic (excluding stuff such as Hitmonlee, Rotom, Absol, Torterra, Swellow etc)
Roserade, Venusaur, Clefable, Lanturn and Ludicolo are probably the best counters.
Toxicroak - even taking about 35%~ from Ice Beam I guess it's a decent enough counter
Chansey - Stall match, Milotic wins if it has Rest, but it can be considered a counter.
Espeon - Can switch once, not a counter per-say but a decent enough check, especially if its a Calm Mind variety (but those are rare...)
Hariyama - If its defensive it can switch in but can't hurt, if its offensive it can hurt but can't switch in.
Mesprit - The rare CM or Specs versions can be considered counters I guess.
Ludicolo/Lanturn/Roserade/Venusaur/Clefable/Chansey/Toxicroak are very good counters, but it walls so much of everything else that it really makes me consider it as a suspect. I'm not sure tho.
7 out of 49 can be considered counters
27 out of those same 49 lose to Milotic.
And the other 15 depend on the set and/or can't switch in but Milotic can't switch in on them either.
I really don't know how much is 'a major part of the metagame' but I think Milotic walls a lot of shit >.>
EDIT: Forgot to say, considering Roserade will probably get into the OU list the next update, Milotic will dominate even more D:
It can wall most of the metagame easily. Other then defensive Roserade / Venusaur nothing is a 100% counter to be honest.
From the top 50 most used in UU, Milotic walls (or at least beats-one-on-one) without much problems the following:
Registeel, Mismagius, Uxie, Yanmega, Blaziken, Hitmontop, Ambipom, Azumarill, Spiritomb, Steelix, Arcanine, Claydol, Altaria, Moltres, Houndoom, Feraligatr, Weezing, Dugtrio, Regirock, Kabutops, Scyther, Miltank, Donphan, Nidoking, Typhlosion, Drifblim, Nidoqueen.
That's 27 out of 49 (didn't include Milotic on the list). Now from the other 23, lets see how many can actually switch into Milotic (excluding stuff such as Hitmonlee, Rotom, Absol, Torterra, Swellow etc)
Roserade, Venusaur, Clefable, Lanturn and Ludicolo are probably the best counters.
Toxicroak - even taking about 35%~ from Ice Beam I guess it's a decent enough counter
Chansey - Stall match, Milotic wins if it has Rest, but it can be considered a counter.
Espeon - Can switch once, not a counter per-say but a decent enough check, especially if its a Calm Mind variety (but those are rare...)
Hariyama - If its defensive it can switch in but can't hurt, if its offensive it can hurt but can't switch in.
Mesprit - The rare CM or Specs versions can be considered counters I guess.
Ludicolo/Lanturn/Roserade/Venusaur/Clefable/Chansey/Toxicroak are very good counters, but it walls so much of everything else that it really makes me consider it as a suspect. I'm not sure tho.
7 out of 49 can be considered counters
27 out of those same 49 lose to Milotic.
And the other 15 depend on the set and/or can't switch in but Milotic can't switch in on them either.
I really don't know how much is 'a major part of the metagame' but I think Milotic walls a lot of shit >.>
EDIT: Forgot to say, considering Roserade will probably get into the OU list the next update, Milotic will dominate even more D:
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