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np: UU - Higher Ground

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If only I had the stamina of other players to ladder everyday.. I would get my deviation up.

Well to get back on the thread, I am really finding Yanmega less threatening. To think about it - each set has a counter and its easy. Chansey will wall almost every set it has, Milotic can check, as well as Registeel. Priority also murders it on Specs versions. Not to mentioned the fact a simple switch-in to someone like Chansey can take a huge 50% from its hp. Stealth Rock has already been said - and at the end it has 3 switch-ins at the end, and a simple switch-in can force it to switch-out. One priority move will end its life basically (if it came on SR). Yanmega is not broken and not BL material after thinking about it.
 
franky said:
If only I had the stamina of other players to ladder everyday.. I would get my deviation up.

Well to get back on the thread, I am really finding Yanmega less threatening. To think about it - each set has a counter and its easy. Chansey will wall almost every set it has, Milotic can check, as well as Registeel. Priority also murders it on Specs versions. Not to mentioned the fact a simple switch-in to someone like Chansey can take a huge 50% from its hp. Stealth Rock has already been said - and at the end it has 3 switch-ins at the end, and a simple switch-in can force it to switch-out. One priority move will end its life basically (if it came on SR). Yanmega is not broken and not BL material after thinking about it.
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Fuck yeah it is. Mandating Chansey on every team? Every scenario has Chansey involved for you.
 
registeel is 3hkoed about 49.20% of the time with rocks up and still has a chance to be 3hkoed without rocks meaning yanmega can either feel ballsy and go for the 3hko while you stealth rock or get a free switch while you twave (which is your "best" move assuming you have it). it also doesn't have very reliable recovery, and curse rest/talk does worse than standard registeel because iron head does lol%.

milotic essentially has to run calm to have any chance of switching in safely with any residual damage (2hko is guaranteed after like 10% previous damage and rocks or something) which means it's a lot shittier at walling physical stuff (it only has like 70 base def). it's an okay check but you have absolutely no room for a 10% spdef drop or a 30% flinch and you have to keep milotic at almost max HP the entire damage and spin away entry hazards if you want to be able to switch it into yanmega without sacrificing something first. a lot harder to clean sweep a team with milotic in it, but that doesn't stop you from systematically taking out their other team members as they scramble to safely get milotic in against you.

chansey yeah walls yanmega but really how hard is chansey to get rid of? pursuit honchkrow or absol or anything essentially guarantees chansey is coming back into play at like 40% maximum, assuming it has leftovers and isn't taking stealth rock damage, which is a very unique situation. yeah yeah yeah "pursuit" isn't a valid argument for nominations but if there is one counter for a pokemon (that happened to be 23rd on the july usage list) is it really supposed to be in this tier?

stealth rock is an okay check for yanmega, but the problem is yanmega doesn't have to come in on SR and can wait until it's gone to sweep. donphan can 2hko most spin blockers and hitmontop gets a guaranteed spin against non double-ghost teams. sure you can double switch stuff like milotic into donphan and prevent spin but it's just as easy to say "i'm gonna keep sr up!" as it is to say "i'm gonna spin sr!". especially when the teams that depend solely on sr and checks to stop yanmega are offensive teams with ghosts like cm missy or subcharge rotom, it's a lot harder to stop spin.

edit: just an observation: ironically it seems like offensive teams have a lot easier time with specs tinted lens than balanced/defensive teams because they have more fast sweepers that can force it out or KO whereas they have a much harder time with speed boost variants because the lack of power doesn't matter against fast frail sweepers but the speed boost means the only way offensive teams can kill them is with priority.

and i guess donphan can't 2hko *every* spinblocker...
 
if anyone was any competent they could start a new nick and get their deviation way under 50 within 3-4 hours. and if this is an issue for anyone, i probably wouldn't want to hear their opinions on what should or should not be banned
 
I agree, this round of UU has been really fun. The metagame has evolved, and we're getting closer to a complete suspectless metagame. Can't wait till after the voting.

Although I'm pissed that due to very timely power cuts, I've "lost" too many games for my liking.
 
by far my favorite uu testing stage -- lots of exploration, new sets created, and good pokemon discovered. plus i improved a lot at playing pkmns and had a lot of fun hanging out with different uu players on shoddy :)

but because this can't be purely a nostalgic pc++, i'll say that seismic toss registeel has really been great to me. seismic toss / twave / shadow claw / stealth rock is what i've been using on one of my teams and i don't regret moving from iron head at all. the only things you really need to damage through iron head are espeon and missy and shadow claw hits them super-effective, while seismic toss reliably damages the opposing team. it also 2hkos dugtrio after stealth rock damage and lets registeel beat magneton with 30-40% hp most of the time, more if parahax kicks in.
 
Agreed with the above posters, I qualified with 2 files and after like 100 something battles - the metagame is really understandable and this. I agree that this stage of the testing was interesting cause' it broadened the amount of sweepers from the NU tier. Normal-types like Kanga, Tauros, etc have shined, Leafeon is getting usage and some new sets like SubCharge came. Overall this was pretty good.
 
whistle said:
by far my favorite uu testing stage -- lots of exploration, new sets created, and good pokemon discovered. plus i improved a lot at playing pkmns and had a lot of fun hanging out with different uu players on shoddy :)

but because this can't be purely a nostalgic pc++, i'll say that seismic toss registeel has really been great to me. seismic toss / twave / shadow claw / stealth rock is what i've been using on one of my teams and i don't regret moving from iron head at all. the only things you really need to damage through iron head are espeon and missy and shadow claw hits them super-effective, while seismic toss reliably damages the opposing team. it also 2hkos dugtrio after stealth rock damage and lets registeel beat magneton with 30-40% hp most of the time, more if parahax kicks in.
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MMmm I've battled that set before. o_O I was suprised.....Maybe I battled you? My name's Zandgaia on Shoddy
 
You know, I really can't wait for the usage stats of this month. Remember when all people were saying things like this?

"Dugtrio is going to kill stall!"
"Duggy for BL!!!"
"Duggy can trap and kill anyone! Support characteristic ftw!"

Dugtrio was so underwhelming it's not funny.
 
Erazor said:
You know, I really can't wait for the usage stats of this month. Remember when all people were saying things like this?

"Dugtrio is going to kill stall!"
"Duggy for BL!!!"
"Duggy can trap and kill anyone! Support characteristic ftw!"

Dugtrio was so underwhelming it's not funny.
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In all fairness I don't think any of the smart players on this forum took that hype remotely seriously. Duggy was always going to have more of an indirect effect than a direct one. Most stall teams now run at least one Shed Shell somewhere, particularly on Chanseys and Registeels, and that makes them easier to wear down in general.
 
I honestly can say that this round wasn't very appealing to me and for several reasons. Sure new sets and Pokemon were being used such as Leafeon, ChargeTom, and CB Kanga but in all actuality they were being paired with the same Pokemon... over and over and over again. Thats not really diverse to me but oh well I must be difficult to please.

I want to retest a few BL's that is for sure.
 
Finally got my dev down. Pain in the ass.

Outside of Yanmega, I don't see anything with a serious chance of being moved to BL. Duggy hasn't killed stall all on his own, Milo and Registeel are tough but manageable, and there are a wide variety of viable strategies.

I'm much more interested in what will drop down. Froslass has a good shot, especially without Abomasnow. Crobat has a chance too, but I doubt he would make it.
 
Exclamation Point said:
I honestly can say that this round wasn't very appealing to me and for several reasons. Sure new sets and Pokemon were being used such as Leafeon, ChargeTom, and CB Kanga but in all actuality they were being paired with the same Pokemon... over and over and over again. Thats not really diverse to me but oh well I must be difficult to please.

I want to retest a few BL's that is for sure.
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Ummmmmmmm as far as I my brain goes:
Yanmega (Let's see: Registeel, Chansey, high sp. def. milotic, Regice, regirock?) meh. I bet he get's tested 50/50 I think
Milotic (Standard walls sh!t. Whilst LOtic kills sh!t. Which means: Sh!t) I guess BL
Roserade: No idea
And I don't see duggy that threating. Sure my current team is weak to it. But still o.O hench Donphan is doing much better.. Donphan is the man(pokemon) who gave spinning in UU another chance.
I wonder what Raikou and other "weaker" BLs (Not named; Crobat, shaymin and maybe Ambomasnow) would react with the new metagame changes.
 
Lanturn is another potential Yanmega counter that I never see brought up. The standard set from the analysis (40 HP / 252 SpD Calm) takes 43-51% from Specs Bug Buzz, but it can easily go more defensive. Max HP/SpD takes 38-45%. The Lanturn spread from the analysis (136 SpA) does 97-115% with Thunderbolt, and min SpA Lanturn still does 83-98%. Though Lanturn can't switch in too many times without RestTalk, it still does a decent job of switching in a few times and threatening with STAB Thunderbolt or Thunder Wave. And ideally, Yanmega shouldn't be able to switch in more than three times.

This is a little "overspecialized", but Lanturn also counters two of UU's other top threats, Rotom and Milotic, so while it's certainly a niche Pokemon, it's not solely for Yanmega.

Lapras is another Pokemon that could potentially be used to counter Yanmega. Yanmega does 34-40% with Specs Bug Buzz to the Curser spread, and max HP/SpD takes only 32-38%. Its Stealth Rock weakness is a problem, certainly, but apparently spinning is really easy in UU with Hitmontop and Donphan. Min SpA Lapras' Ice Beam does 92-107%, and Lapras only needs 84 SpA EVs to ensure the OHKO against 4 / 0 Yanmega. It also has Ice Shard to take out a really weakened Yanmega, but damage output from that is far more dismal. Min Atk Ice Shard only does 27-33%. If Lapras does run the 84 SpA EVs, then Bug Buzz does 34-40%.
 
Here are the tier changes that occured since the original six suspects were banned:

- Yanmega, Dugtrio, Donphan came down
- Umbreon went to UU, then to OU
- Shaymin went to BL
- Crobat went to UU, then to BL

Looking at the six original banned pokemon, let's see how they may be affected by the tier changes. And to anyone who says this is theorymon and theorymon is frowned upon, if we're nominating BL->UU we're using theorymon there.

Gallade: might be checked by Yanmega (+2 Life Orb Shadow Sneak does 38%-46% on those 104 Def Yanmega) and Donphan (+2 Life Orb Close Combat does 89%-105%, 74.36% chance to KO with Rocks). Other than that, Gallade isn't getting much of a vote for UU.

Froslass: Dugtrio has the ability to kill it with its 120 base speed, and Donphan is one of UU top spinners who can reliably reduce the impact of Froslass leads after it has fainted. The loss of Crobat kind of counteracts this, and I doubt anyone wants Crobat to come back (explained later). However, it seemed like everyone quickly wanted a Froslass retest, because some players were arguing that guaranteed two layers of Spikes =/= broken.

Abomasnow: Yanmega, Dugtrio and Donphan don't do much to Aboma individually, but to hail teams I think they have a significant impact, and it was Aboma's hail that pushed it to BL. Hail teams always had a similar core of Abomasnow / Walrein / Froslass / Nidoqueen / ghost. Hail teams may change dramatically now that Yanmega and Dugtrio can do quite a number on the common team members, and Donphan can reliably spin the precious entry hazards away. I'm not sure about Abomasnow.

Raikou: Dugtrio is faster and can kill trap and kill pretty reliably (people ran around 40 SpDef EVs to survive super effective Hidden Powers in Advance), and Donphan can definitely take a super effective Hidden Power. Shaymin and Crobat leaving hardly affect Raikou at all.

Staraptor: Dugtrio can always revenge and Yanmega can revenge using Protect -> Air Slash. Max/max Donphan takes 50%-59% from Adamant Choice Banded Brave Bird, but Staraptor will probably die too from recoil and Ice Shard. Crobat is gone too, so there's little hope of Staraptor coming back.

As for Shaymin and Crobat coming back, I doubt it. Dugtrio and Donphan aren't doing much keeping them in check, and Donphan probably makes Crobat 5 times better, keeping Crobat's "counters" (Regis, Steelix) from doing much at all.
 
It's worth noting that none of the original 6 suspects bar Crobat were tested in isolation. We've not seen a tier with Abomasnow but no Froslass and vice versa. The addition of the two Ground-types to UU may also have a big impact on Raikou's feasibility in the tier as well, like you said. I think if Froslass, Abomasnow, and Raikou were tested again (in isolation if we have the time to) the BL votes wouldn't be nearly as unanimous as they were the first time round.
 
umbarsc said:
Lapras is another Pokemon that could potentially be used to counter Yanmega. Yanmega does 34-40% with Specs Bug Buzz to the Curser spread, and max HP/SpD takes only 32-38%. Its Stealth Rock weakness is a problem, certainly, but apparently spinning is really easy in UU with Hitmontop and Donphan. Min SpA Lapras' Ice Beam does 92-107%, and Lapras only needs 84 SpA EVs to ensure the OHKO against 4 / 0 Yanmega. It also has Ice Shard to take out a really weakened Yanmega, but damage output from that is far more dismal. Min Atk Ice Shard only does 27-33%. If Lapras does run the 84 SpA EVs, then Bug Buzz does 34-40%.
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I was running a bulky DD set back when Shaymin and Crobat were around and it worked pretty well then. Lets see how it stacks up with the changes in the metagame. The idea with the speed was that after 1 DD it out speeds everything it needs to hit with waterfall or get a sub up against. Even with max speed after 1 it can't outspeed the faster threats, but the faster threats already took SE damage from Ice Shard or were weak defensively( Shaymin, Crobat, Mismagius, and now Yanmega)

Code: 
Lapras (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 192 HP/252 Atk/12 Spd/54 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Waterfall
- Ice Shard
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute/Return

vs modest speed boost
Bug Buzz 32.96% - 38.98%
Air Slash 27.39% - 32.29%

Modest Specs
Air Slash 40.98% - 48.33%
Bug Buzz 49.00% - 58.13%

Ice Shard vs 4 Def Yanmega
38.98% - 46.65%
+1 59.42% - 69.65%

vs 104 Def Yanmega
35.14% - 42.17%
+1 52.40% - 61.98%

And then just as a side note here against some other UU
Impish 252HP 252 Def Donphan vs Waterfall 
 35.94% - 42.71%
+1 53.13% - 63.02%

Roserade 0hp/Def vs Ice shard
66.67% - 78.93%
+1 99.62% - 118.01%

Dugtrio vs Ice Shard
88.15% - 105.21%

Milotic
With one DD you can out speed most variants and get a sub up and wall sets without HP electric. Haze is a bit of a problem but standard sets are set up fodder if they switch in.
Waterfall vs Bold 252Hp/252Def
+6 50.51% - 59.64%
Marvel Scale
+6 33.76% - 39.85%

Slowbro Bold 252hp/252Def
+6 36.55% - 43.40%
Flinch hax helps here. Psychic can break subs but you can usually get +6 if it stays in and tries to attack you.

With the sub version, after 1 DD many of UU's biggest problems are dealt with very nicely. Obviously still has some problems, Azumarill(FP) Registeel (can probably still break subs with Iron Head) etc but it works pretty well. It can switch in and HELP check Yanmega but its not going to be a guaranteed check without being overly specialized.
 
Peachfuzz said:
Here are the tier changes that occured since the original six suspects were banned:

- Yanmega, Dugtrio, Donphan came down
- Umbreon went to UU, then to OU
- Shaymin went to BL
- Crobat went to UU, then to BL

Looking at the six original banned pokemon, let's see how they may be affected by the tier changes. And to anyone who says this is theorymon and theorymon is frowned upon, if we're nominating BL->UU we're using theorymon there.

Gallade: might be checked by Yanmega (+2 Life Orb Shadow Sneak does 38%-46% on those 104 Def Yanmega) and Donphan (+2 Life Orb Close Combat does 89%-105%, 74.36% chance to KO with Rocks). Other than that, Gallade isn't getting much of a vote for UU.

Froslass: Dugtrio has the ability to kill it with its 120 base speed, and Donphan is one of UU top spinners who can reliably reduce the impact of Froslass leads after it has fainted. The loss of Crobat kind of counteracts this, and I doubt anyone wants Crobat to come back (explained later). However, it seemed like everyone quickly wanted a Froslass retest, because some players were arguing that guaranteed two layers of Spikes =/= broken.

Abomasnow: Yanmega, Dugtrio and Donphan don't do much to Aboma individually, but to hail teams I think they have a significant impact, and it was Aboma's hail that pushed it to BL. Hail teams always had a similar core of Abomasnow / Walrein / Froslass / Nidoqueen / ghost. Hail teams may change dramatically now that Yanmega and Dugtrio can do quite a number on the common team members, and Donphan can reliably spin the precious entry hazards away. I'm not sure about Abomasnow.

Raikou: Dugtrio is faster and can kill trap and kill pretty reliably (people ran around 40 SpDef EVs to survive super effective Hidden Powers in Advance), and Donphan can definitely take a super effective Hidden Power. Shaymin and Crobat leaving hardly affect Raikou at all.

Staraptor: Dugtrio can always revenge and Yanmega can revenge using Protect -> Air Slash. Max/max Donphan takes 50%-59% from Adamant Choice Banded Brave Bird, but Staraptor will probably die too from recoil and Ice Shard. Crobat is gone too, so there's little hope of Staraptor coming back.

As for Shaymin and Crobat coming back, I doubt it. Dugtrio and Donphan aren't doing much keeping them in check, and Donphan probably makes Crobat 5 times better, keeping Crobat's "counters" (Regis, Steelix) from doing much at all.
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Legacy Raider said:
It's worth noting that none of the original 6 suspects bar Crobat were tested in isolation. We've not seen a tier with Abomasnow but no Froslass and vice versa. The addition of the two Ground-types to UU may also have a big impact on Raikou's feasibility in the tier as well, like you said. I think if Froslass, Abomasnow, and Raikou were tested again (in isolation if we have the time to) the BL votes wouldn't be nearly as unanimous as they were the first time round.
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Aeroblacktyl said:
yeah it's pointless to test gallade

the only reasonable thing to even test right off the bat is raikou anyways
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Hurrah I brought a discussion up o.O'
Anyway: But you can't only use Yanmega, Donphan and Dugtrio to see if the BLs are "weak" enough for UU. But also check the new movesets and such from UU pokemon. That'll change alot too <_<
 
Ice Shard kind of counters the whole point of DD, Waterfall + Return is probably better if you're going that route.

Ice Shard is more effective on a cursing set.
 
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