lol what? lapras is a horrible yanmega switch in. if we assume there's SR for both sides, yanmega wins. if we assume there isn't SR for either side, yanmega still wins
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np: UU - Higher Ground
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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How does Yanmega win? If you use a heavily SpD-oriented spread, Lapras wins. Even if Stealth Rock is up, Lapras still wins with the set I posted (172 HP / 84 SpA / 252 SpD Calm). Coincidentally, that spread is never 2HKOed by Yanmega even with Rocks up.
But yes, offensive Lapras still loses, unless it's something ridiculous like CB Lapras that takes out a 50% Yanmega (I think that might be possible)
If you can't keep Stealth Rocks off the field it's far from a reliable Yanmega counter. But the thing about Yanmega is that you only have to counter it twice.
But yes, offensive Lapras still loses, unless it's something ridiculous like CB Lapras that takes out a 50% Yanmega (I think that might be possible)
If you can't keep Stealth Rocks off the field it's far from a reliable Yanmega counter. But the thing about Yanmega is that you only have to counter it twice.
I know this isn't creative movesets thread, but Ice shard works better. I used it a lot and it consistently works better. There will be times when you won't get a dragon dance but you will need to revenge something. RP torterra and DD altaria at any given time can be checked.
You get 1 DD and you still can't outspeed roserade who is the number 1 in usage. Leaf storm will KO you but Ice Shard gets it first.
Another situation is you getting 2 or 3 dragon dances (which happens when you have this level of bulk) to be faced by Hitmontop or Ambipom. Ice shard means they won't end your sweep.
(Before Yanmega I had also used 120 Speed meaning you outspeed ambipom after 2 DD). Being able to hit something you know is scarfed is useful as well.
Ice Shard is so useful with or without DD. Most of the things that you hit with return, you still do crap damage at +2 and it's better to guard against status and just get to +6 and bludgeon your way through with Waterfall and some flinch hax.
lol what? with 449 hp/317 spdef, lapras still takes a total of 75% total from 2 ABSOLUTE min damage from a specs yanmega. with sr, yanmega wins, as you can't ohko it from 50% with ice shard, and you're slower using anything but
and i wasn't even talking to your irrelevent post so get off your retarded horse
and i wasn't even talking to your irrelevent post so get off your retarded horse
After battling a bit more, I think I may just have to change my opinion on Yanmega. Essentially, you're screwed if you don't get an opportunity to ley down Stealth Rock, and even then, switching into it is pretty difficult in my opinion, as the most reliable counters (Registeel for one) doesn't even have recovery, and takes like 35% from Tinted Lens Bug Buzz.
Also, is anyone here having problems with Life Orb Roserade? I'm this close to nominating it for offensive/support characteristic.
Also, is anyone here having problems with Life Orb Roserade? I'm this close to nominating it for offensive/support characteristic.
As far as suspects / potential BLs go, there really isn't anything that I feel too strongly about. I'm 50/50 on Yanmega, but that is it, meaning that I will currently be voting UU if I make the requirements and don't change my mind beforehand, but I won't be too bothered if it gets voted BL. Anything else isn't even close to BL worthy IMO, plus it's good to see that nobody is bitching about Honchkrow again this time round.
As for current BLs, I think Froslass, Gallade and Raikou deserve a second test, because their votes were far from unanimous. There was a large consensus on all the other BLs, so I don't think they should be retested unless someone can give a very convincing reason for any of them. As for when such Pokemon should be retested, I think it should be just after the tier list update in October at the earliest, as any earlier would cause two drastic metagame changes in quick succession.
As for current BLs, I think Froslass, Gallade and Raikou deserve a second test, because their votes were far from unanimous. There was a large consensus on all the other BLs, so I don't think they should be retested unless someone can give a very convincing reason for any of them. As for when such Pokemon should be retested, I think it should be just after the tier list update in October at the earliest, as any earlier would cause two drastic metagame changes in quick succession.
All of those suspects mentioned shuld still remaining BL, even with the new additions in UU. The only one that i'm sort of alright with is Froslass because it was only good in conjunction with abomasnow. One of the best spikers at the game with Abomasnow in its team.
Raikou can outright counter Yanmega for the most part, but that by itself is no reason to unban something no matter how you look at it. I hope you weren't serious.
I'd support retesting those 3, though something tells me Froslass will end up back in BL for the same reasons it went there in the first place. I was also looking forward to the possibility of Roserade joining OU and leaving us with Omastar and Qwilfish to set up spikes. Gallade's low speed and lack of powerful priority shouldn't make it too unmanageable, and Dugtrio makes Raikou more manageable. I'd also like to see Shaymin come back, as I never thought it was BL in the first place. But somehow I doubt it will be rejoining UU so soon after it left.
Anyways, as for when it should change, I'd say we should make all changes to UU in October when the tier lists change (which I think is what you're saying, too). That is to say, bans to BL, unbans from BL, newcomers from OU, and those leaving for OU would all happen at the same time.
Me too, Registeel is the only check and faster Pokemon, and bringing in faster Pokemon is hard because most suffer a OHKO from Leaf Storm or Sludge Bomb. I hate the thing - but I've been abusing it. Easily one of the toughest things to take down and is usually one of my last pokemon.
Gallade's kinda like Yanmega, though instead of wrecking offensive teams he wrecks stall. What on stall can stop it?
Donphan, Weezing, Nidoqueen, Drapion, Tangrowth, Milotic, Venusaur, Miltank etc are all fucked. This is assuming SD/CC/Psycho Cut/Night Slash.
The only possible things I see stopping it are Slowbro and Spiritomb. Slowbro can't even 2HKO it, the best it can do is Thunder Wave. If Spiritomb is without Shadow Sneak or Sucker Punch, the best it can do is burn it, and you better hope it doesn't miss.
I'd rather not have Gallade in UU.
Donphan, Weezing, Nidoqueen, Drapion, Tangrowth, Milotic, Venusaur, Miltank etc are all fucked. This is assuming SD/CC/Psycho Cut/Night Slash.
The only possible things I see stopping it are Slowbro and Spiritomb. Slowbro can't even 2HKO it, the best it can do is Thunder Wave. If Spiritomb is without Shadow Sneak or Sucker Punch, the best it can do is burn it, and you better hope it doesn't miss.
I'd rather not have Gallade in UU.
Potentially, nothing on stall can hope to always stop Gallade. Heeding SDS's sig, Gallade has an amazing offensive movepool that can destroy anything slower that switches in. LO Leaf Blade gets a clean OHKO on Slowbro after a Swords Dance, boosted Psycho Cut destroys Weezing / Nidoqueen, 252/252+ Donphan, Tangrowth, Milotic etc can't deal with a boosted Close Combat... the list goes on. Of course Gallade can only run 4 moves, but SD / Close Combat / Psycho Cut / Leaf Blade uses both its STABs, gets perfect coverage in UU, and would absolutely destroy UU stall as it is. Spiritomb seems to be the closest thing that can check Gallade, but even it can take 70+% from a boosted Leaf Blade. I really don't think a Gallade test is feasible at all despite its relatively close original BL vote of 11-7-2 (my argument for it being BL is expanded on here).
While I'm at it, I might as well post my theorymon reasoning for why it's worth testing Raikou again. The Higher Ground testing has obviously added two very potent checks for it. Donphan is bulky enough to take on a super effective Hidden Power from Raikou if it needs to with minimal investment from the norm - 252 HP / 40 SpD donphan will not be 2HKOed by a super effective HP from 116 SpA Raikou (Sub CM Raikou) after SR and Leftovers, and can retaliate with a fatal STAB EQ. Even after a CM, Sub Raikou doesn't come close to OHKOing Donphan with Hidden Power Ice or Grass (75.5% average), so the saying that Raikou can beat its checks with a rogue Hidden Power has far less weight when there is another almost paper counter available in the tier now.
For those of you who then go on to say "but Donphan dies to LO Raikou after a CM!", I say, "Dugtrio". Running Raikou without Sub is a massive liability with the mole triplet in the tier, since otherwise it can simply come in on a Thunderbolt (not too hard since it's Raikou's only STAB) or a Calm Mind, or in revenge, and outspeed and take it out with Earthquake. If Raikou runs something obscure like Shuca Berry, it then won't have the power to beat Donphan, so just between these two Ground-types it is pretty well covered. That's not mentioning all the other checks and counters for it in the tier - Sub CM Raikou is easily beaten by Encore Clefable, Steelix, and checked by Seismic Toss Registeel, to name but a few. Chansey, not mentioned yet, is also a surefire counter for any Raikou set, but I understand how it isn't the easiest of Pokemonto simply throw on a team. I think the metagame has easily developed significantly enough with the addition of the two Ground-types into the tier for a Raikou test to be worthwhile.
Froslass and Abomasnow I simply want to test in the tier without the other, since they both obviously have great synergy and are very effective together. Although I really don't know what decision, if any, is taken if both are found to be UU by themselves through isolation testing, but deemed 'broken' when in the tier together.
While I'm at it, I might as well post my theorymon reasoning for why it's worth testing Raikou again. The Higher Ground testing has obviously added two very potent checks for it. Donphan is bulky enough to take on a super effective Hidden Power from Raikou if it needs to with minimal investment from the norm - 252 HP / 40 SpD donphan will not be 2HKOed by a super effective HP from 116 SpA Raikou (Sub CM Raikou) after SR and Leftovers, and can retaliate with a fatal STAB EQ. Even after a CM, Sub Raikou doesn't come close to OHKOing Donphan with Hidden Power Ice or Grass (75.5% average), so the saying that Raikou can beat its checks with a rogue Hidden Power has far less weight when there is another almost paper counter available in the tier now.
For those of you who then go on to say "but Donphan dies to LO Raikou after a CM!", I say, "Dugtrio". Running Raikou without Sub is a massive liability with the mole triplet in the tier, since otherwise it can simply come in on a Thunderbolt (not too hard since it's Raikou's only STAB) or a Calm Mind, or in revenge, and outspeed and take it out with Earthquake. If Raikou runs something obscure like Shuca Berry, it then won't have the power to beat Donphan, so just between these two Ground-types it is pretty well covered. That's not mentioning all the other checks and counters for it in the tier - Sub CM Raikou is easily beaten by Encore Clefable, Steelix, and checked by Seismic Toss Registeel, to name but a few. Chansey, not mentioned yet, is also a surefire counter for any Raikou set, but I understand how it isn't the easiest of Pokemonto simply throw on a team. I think the metagame has easily developed significantly enough with the addition of the two Ground-types into the tier for a Raikou test to be worthwhile.
Froslass and Abomasnow I simply want to test in the tier without the other, since they both obviously have great synergy and are very effective together. Although I really don't know what decision, if any, is taken if both are found to be UU by themselves through isolation testing, but deemed 'broken' when in the tier together.
I don't care either way for Raikou / Gallade since I didn't have much of an opinion on them during the time they were in UU (I abstained on those two due to not having enough experience) and I can see why some people would support a Froslass test. I wouldn't mind retesting or not retesting any of those three.
Regarding the tier list changes: I think if we ban something UU, it should be eliminated ASAP because these nominations / bans are based on the current metagame. But unbans from BL would take a while to test, and I think it would be nice to have a relatively stable metagame for a while to enjoy before we start testing all over again. Obviously those going to and coming from OU can't be banned or unbanned before the tier list changes in October.
ASAP -- ban any BL Pokemon
October -- potential retest of old BLs, ban newly OU Pokemon, unban newly UU Pokemon
Are Stall teams a "significant portion of teams?" If so, I could understand Gallade being banned (even though Stall teams can check it in various ways IMO). However, unless Doug or X-Act could make some bizarre stat classifying what a Stall team is, this will be entirely based on opinion.
uh dont be idiotic. modest specs yanmega does fine and getting 2 nicks into top10 would like to back me up on that ._.
OK, Gallade gives Stall a really hard time. The only thing I can say is "So?". Last I checked, the Offensive characteristic says the Pokemon can sweep the majority of teams with little effort. Just about every team except a stall team carries something higher than 80 base speed with an attack powerful enough to blow away Gallade.
As for stall, you have a few options. Stall out its Life Orb, burn it, throw up Reflect, hit it with a priority move, or maybe even use something unusual like Featherdancing Xatu or Charm Leafeon. You have options, and it admittedly will not be easy to deal with, but just because it makes Stall harder to play doesn't make it broken.
On a related note, Gallade seems very similar to Lucario in how it operates. How does stall deal with SDLuke in OU?
As for stall, you have a few options. Stall out its Life Orb, burn it, throw up Reflect, hit it with a priority move, or maybe even use something unusual like Featherdancing Xatu or Charm Leafeon. You have options, and it admittedly will not be easy to deal with, but just because it makes Stall harder to play doesn't make it broken.
On a related note, Gallade seems very similar to Lucario in how it operates. How does stall deal with SDLuke in OU?
Carries both Rotom and Gyarados on the same team.
You know, after a chat on IRC last night, I'd really like to retest Shaymin - only this time, without Crobat.
Crobat and Shaymin had amazing Synergy together, as Crobat lured out everything Shaymin loves to fight, and then immediately U-turns to.... three guesses who.
However, without Crobat, I'm inclined to believe that Shaymin won't be as destructive. Now you're saying "lolwut? Crobat was as close to a Shaymin counter as you'll get!!" but Crobat helped Shaymin far more than it checked it.
I believe LR makes some good points on Raikou, and I would like to see it retested as well. However:
Interesting how they can all be taken care of by Dugtrio :)
And about Gallade.... I don't really know. I mean, it lost major checks(Crobat and Staraptor), and Donphan isn't really stopping it if it gets an SD up. And I'm sure that Dugtrio won't enjoy +2 Shadow Sneak.
Crobat and Shaymin had amazing Synergy together, as Crobat lured out everything Shaymin loves to fight, and then immediately U-turns to.... three guesses who.
However, without Crobat, I'm inclined to believe that Shaymin won't be as destructive. Now you're saying "lolwut? Crobat was as close to a Shaymin counter as you'll get!!" but Crobat helped Shaymin far more than it checked it.
I believe LR makes some good points on Raikou, and I would like to see it retested as well. However:
Interesting how they can all be taken care of by Dugtrio :)
And about Gallade.... I don't really know. I mean, it lost major checks(Crobat and Staraptor), and Donphan isn't really stopping it if it gets an SD up. And I'm sure that Dugtrio won't enjoy +2 Shadow Sneak.
Not at all.
+2 Adamant LO Gallade Shadow Sneak vs 4/0 Dugtrio: 99.1 - 117.0%
Also, Dugtrio acts much more as a check for Raikou than it does as a check remover for it. Dugtrio gets 2HKOed by Seismic Toss after SR and OHKOed by Gyro Ball, and it can't OHKO any of Registeel, Chansey, Clefable, or Steelix (who sometimes isn't even 2HKOed). It's funny though how it works out that Dugtrio, while being possibly the biggest threat to Raikou's existence, can also work with it so well to beat its counters, just like the relationship between Crobat and Shaymin.
So because we let 2 pokemon in the tier, 1 who sucks (Dugtrio) and another that is okay that has to run a different defensive spread, we feel we need to retest one of the first pokemon that we decided was too good for the tier? I don't want to have to run Dugtrio or Donphan thanks.
All the BL's are fine where they are and Yanmega needs to join them now preferably.
Wasn't Raikou the first to go? I can't remember if it was Staraptor or Raikou to go first
All the BL's are fine where they are and Yanmega needs to join them now preferably.
Wasn't Raikou the first to go? I can't remember if it was Staraptor or Raikou to go first
I think they were at the same time banned o.O otherwise I think Staraptor was it......
But if Raikou is or isn't the first to go to BL doesn't matter. If it get's 1 "wonderfull" counter in Donphan. And a check/revenger in dugtrio
They were all banned simultaneously, the first BLs.
Yeah, Yanmega does need to go, but about checking Raikou - you don't _need_ Donphan or Dugtrio. Steelix can work decently, and so does Venusaur to an extent. The problem with Raikou is that it can't have a moveset of Thunderbolt/Calm Mind/Substitute/Shadow Ball/HP Ice/HPGround/HP Fire.
edit: Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Raikou is not BL. I'm saying that there's enough arguments for testing him again.
Isn't that the meaning of this whole discussion? Retesting/Not a chance?
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