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CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 1 - Concept Poll 2
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i really think two-sided attack has been done many times, and many of you aren't seeing it because you are thinking only of mixed attackers.
just as an example, let's take heatran:
timid @choice scarf
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
~ Fire Blast
~ Earth Power
~ Hidden Power Electric
~ Dragon Pulse
here we have the most popular heatran set. it has a place on many teams as a revenge killer. countered cleanly and easily by blissey, snorlax, tyranitar, swampert, etc. decimates fast but often frail pokemon like azelf, gengar, fidgit and syclant.
timid @life orb
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
~ Fire Blast
~ Earth Power
~ Substitute
~ Toxic
this is sub + toxic heatran. this guy can really mess up tyranitar, swampert, and non-resttalk gyarados. blissey and resttalk snorlax and gyarados still deal with it easily.
calm @leftovers
244 HP / 32 SpA / 12 SpD / 220 Spe
~ Torment
~ Substitute
~ Protect
~ Lava Plume
meet torment tran. unlike the above two sets, this one walks all over blissey and most snorlax. some gyarados and some swampert can beat it. this one is beaten by fast taunters/encorers, aka the pokemon that are terrified of the scarf set.
note that there is simply no way in which you can try to combine any two of these sets. if you try to run any combination of the above sets, your heatran will suck.
I hope this proves my point. the fact is, most OU pokemon are perfectly capable of running more than one set, and often two or more sets will be incompatible. in this case, I could go on about rest-talk tran, choice specs, stealth rock leads... for each example of moi's concept that already exist in the standard metagame, I can show you ten of billymills's.
and seriously guys,
it's not going to stop everything, no bloody way. i would expect this concept to be able to cover "just a little bit of everything", as the saying goes.
billymills said:
just as an example, let's take heatran:
timid @choice scarf
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
~ Fire Blast
~ Earth Power
~ Hidden Power Electric
~ Dragon Pulse
here we have the most popular heatran set. it has a place on many teams as a revenge killer. countered cleanly and easily by blissey, snorlax, tyranitar, swampert, etc. decimates fast but often frail pokemon like azelf, gengar, fidgit and syclant.
timid @life orb
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
~ Fire Blast
~ Earth Power
~ Substitute
~ Toxic
this is sub + toxic heatran. this guy can really mess up tyranitar, swampert, and non-resttalk gyarados. blissey and resttalk snorlax and gyarados still deal with it easily.
calm @leftovers
244 HP / 32 SpA / 12 SpD / 220 Spe
~ Torment
~ Substitute
~ Protect
~ Lava Plume
meet torment tran. unlike the above two sets, this one walks all over blissey and most snorlax. some gyarados and some swampert can beat it. this one is beaten by fast taunters/encorers, aka the pokemon that are terrified of the scarf set.
note that there is simply no way in which you can try to combine any two of these sets. if you try to run any combination of the above sets, your heatran will suck.
I hope this proves my point. the fact is, most OU pokemon are perfectly capable of running more than one set, and often two or more sets will be incompatible. in this case, I could go on about rest-talk tran, choice specs, stealth rock leads... for each example of moi's concept that already exist in the standard metagame, I can show you ten of billymills's.
and seriously guys,
moi said:
it's not going to stop everything, no bloody way. i would expect this concept to be able to cover "just a little bit of everything", as the saying goes.
Just as I said, two-sided attack has many examples.
Two-Sided Attack is not necessarily a mixed attacker. I suppose the concept is about a versatile enough pokemon to switch between two roles depending on EV spread and moveset. The ability and base stats I suppose, will help with this.
EDIT: We know a lot of pokemon can do this, but we're gearing it in a way that its versatility is something that is fierce. I don't think everyone even considers using every Heatran moveset because some are inferior at playing their part than other pokemon. But for Two-Sided Attack, he can be made to fit into multiple (I hope only 2 or it will be too confusing) roles near-perfectly.
EDIT: We know a lot of pokemon can do this, but we're gearing it in a way that its versatility is something that is fierce. I don't think everyone even considers using every Heatran moveset because some are inferior at playing their part than other pokemon. But for Two-Sided Attack, he can be made to fit into multiple (I hope only 2 or it will be too confusing) roles near-perfectly.
Like Umbreon Dan said, there are already existing examples of billymills' concept in today's metagame. If you really think about it, you have all sorts of Pokemon that can fit one role extremely well, and fit another role extremely well, but can't fit both roles extremely well. Aside from Heatran as an example, here are some more examples:
Cyclohm:
This CAP can be used as a fantastic offensive Pokemon, and it can be used as a fantastic defensive Pokemon. However, if you attempt to make it go mixed, Cyclohm will a) be significantly weaker offensively and b) take hits much more harder than usual.
Jirachi:
Jirachi fits this concept as well, both offensively and defensively. Scarf Jirachi is a pain in the ass to get rid of, while SubCM Jirachi is a pain in the ass to get rid of. However, Jirachi can't necessarily run both of these effectively in the same moveset, since it will be pretty lackluster. As for the defensive side, it can take physical hits like a champ, or special hits like a champ, but not both at the same time.
Empoleon:
Last example. Empoleon has a pretty great offensive stat spread, 86 base Attack and 111 base Special Attack, not to mention that it has Swords Dance. Empoleon's popular SubAgility set is insanely threatening after pulled off, and can easily sweep unprepared teams. SDPoleon can wreak havoc with boosted Aqua Jet, Waterfall, Earthquake, etc. However, it will never be effective at running a mixed version, because it just won't be strong enough.
Like billy's concept states right here:
If the above examples were to compromise their strengths, they will suck.
As of now, there are no Pokemon that follow moi's concept. There are definitely ones that can laugh at certain non-damaging moves; like Gastrodon & Trick, Breloom & Leech Seed, Clefable & Status, but there aren't any Pokemon that can laugh at a variety of these at the same time.
Cyclohm:
This CAP can be used as a fantastic offensive Pokemon, and it can be used as a fantastic defensive Pokemon. However, if you attempt to make it go mixed, Cyclohm will a) be significantly weaker offensively and b) take hits much more harder than usual.
Jirachi:
Jirachi fits this concept as well, both offensively and defensively. Scarf Jirachi is a pain in the ass to get rid of, while SubCM Jirachi is a pain in the ass to get rid of. However, Jirachi can't necessarily run both of these effectively in the same moveset, since it will be pretty lackluster. As for the defensive side, it can take physical hits like a champ, or special hits like a champ, but not both at the same time.
Empoleon:
Last example. Empoleon has a pretty great offensive stat spread, 86 base Attack and 111 base Special Attack, not to mention that it has Swords Dance. Empoleon's popular SubAgility set is insanely threatening after pulled off, and can easily sweep unprepared teams. SDPoleon can wreak havoc with boosted Aqua Jet, Waterfall, Earthquake, etc. However, it will never be effective at running a mixed version, because it just won't be strong enough.
Like billy's concept states right here:
If the above examples were to compromise their strengths, they will suck.
As of now, there are no Pokemon that follow moi's concept. There are definitely ones that can laugh at certain non-damaging moves; like Gastrodon & Trick, Breloom & Leech Seed, Clefable & Status, but there aren't any Pokemon that can laugh at a variety of these at the same time.
Voted Stop the Secondary again. Will be interesting to see a Stealth Rock free metagame (or, at least, a decreased usage).
Stop the Secondary seems like the best option of the two, in my eyes at least.
It's been mentioned several times already, so I'm just restating it; there are already many Pokemon in OU that have two or more completely different, non-overlapping, roles.
With StS, we may discover what the metagame is like when non-damaging effects are removed, or at least discouraged. For example, if Stealth Rock is somehow negated easily, it will become much more viable to use Moltres, Yanmega, and Articuno, which in turn will show how well these Pokemon perform in standard play.
In the end, I feel that Stop the Secondary will allow us to actually learn something about the metagame, whereas Two-sided Attack will merely give us another Pokemon similar to Heatran, Jirachi, and Tyranitar, which, to my understanding, isn't what CAP is designed to do.
It's been mentioned several times already, so I'm just restating it; there are already many Pokemon in OU that have two or more completely different, non-overlapping, roles.
With StS, we may discover what the metagame is like when non-damaging effects are removed, or at least discouraged. For example, if Stealth Rock is somehow negated easily, it will become much more viable to use Moltres, Yanmega, and Articuno, which in turn will show how well these Pokemon perform in standard play.
In the end, I feel that Stop the Secondary will allow us to actually learn something about the metagame, whereas Two-sided Attack will merely give us another Pokemon similar to Heatran, Jirachi, and Tyranitar, which, to my understanding, isn't what CAP is designed to do.
Stop the Secondary.
As has been mentioned many times before my post, we can learn as a group a great deal more with this concept than Billy's, as "Two-Sided Attacker" has been done a lot more. moi's hasn't.
As has been mentioned many times before my post, we can learn as a group a great deal more with this concept than Billy's, as "Two-Sided Attacker" has been done a lot more. moi's hasn't.
Do you think you could go into this in greater detail? #cap's tearing itself apart trying to figure it out.Sandal8 said:
I don't understand where you're going with the BST and typing, but whatever.
If you want an example of a wall, look at Swampert. It's not easy for Swampert to tank effectively on both sides of the spectrum, because moves like Outrage from Salamence and Hydro Pump from Starmie will still do a buttload of damage. However, if Swampert is solely being used to take physical hits, it can take a boosted Outrage from Salamence. Same goes for the special side, if Swampert goes max/max in Special Defense, it's extremely difficult to take down and isn't even OHKOed by the standard Celebi's Grass Knot.
Here's another example, Dusknoir. Dusknoir has fantastic defensive stats, but can it effectively tank on both sides of the spectrum? Hell no. This is the reason why it always runs max Defense or max Special Defense, because it just can't do it mixed, probably because of its pathetic HP stat to. If it goes max HP / Def or SpD, it definitely is pretty tough to take down.
There are your examples, and these are just some of the ones out there.
I just feel that we won't be learning much, if anything, if we go with this type of concept. There are already Pokemon that exist like this, so we already know what happens. I doubt there's anything else left to be discovered.
However, moi's concept will actually give us some more knowledge, because it hasn't been seen yet.
I've voted for "stop the secondary" by moi.
I certianly would find it interesting to see what happens should we create a Pokemon that can neutralize at least some moves like Stealth Rock and Leech Seed and help prevent status conditions. Granted, usuage of both moves like those and status conditions would decrease, but what else could come about because of this new Pokemon? That is what I would like to know.
Could the other be helpful for learning about the metagame through experimentation? Certianly. If we decided on billymill's "two sided attack," we could answer the questions presented. But are we as likely to? I don't think so. As other people have pointed out, we already have Pokemon that can fit under the concept (and many people have gone in-depth to point out such Pokemon). Therefore, we might not get to see much of a difference in the metagame.
To reiterate what others before me have said and to summarize what I have pointed out above, if we desire to learn more about the metagame, then I think this concept is much better suited for the task. This concept will force everyone on here to re-think how they plan about going on with battles, likely with some very interesting results.
I certianly would find it interesting to see what happens should we create a Pokemon that can neutralize at least some moves like Stealth Rock and Leech Seed and help prevent status conditions. Granted, usuage of both moves like those and status conditions would decrease, but what else could come about because of this new Pokemon? That is what I would like to know.
Could the other be helpful for learning about the metagame through experimentation? Certianly. If we decided on billymill's "two sided attack," we could answer the questions presented. But are we as likely to? I don't think so. As other people have pointed out, we already have Pokemon that can fit under the concept (and many people have gone in-depth to point out such Pokemon). Therefore, we might not get to see much of a difference in the metagame.
To reiterate what others before me have said and to summarize what I have pointed out above, if we desire to learn more about the metagame, then I think this concept is much better suited for the task. This concept will force everyone on here to re-think how they plan about going on with battles, likely with some very interesting results.
I voted for billymills Two-Sided attack. Mainly because, while both are interesting concepts, the thought of having something with two completely different roles, but having NO in-between is intriguing, and unprecedented, while moi's concept, to an extent, already exists in the form of Blissey, Flygon, Fidgit, and others. A good cleric will clear up status, and dealing with trick means you have to have Sticky Hold, hands down.
As for what I would expect out of this concept, I think it would be interesting if we had one side as a speed demon, possibly utilizing Speed Boost, while the other side was a wall, maybe with something like a beefed up Solid Rock. Also, I just like rooting for the underdog.
EDIT: Guys, I think we have to face it here; neither of these concepts are 100% original. While it is easier to find examples of Two Sided Attack, Stop the Secondary also has look-alikes. Celebi, Suicune, Blissey. They all stop, or at least hinder, the 'secondary' in some way, especially Celebi, who can run Trick Scarf itself. However, both concepts are worth pursuing. It really just boils down to which one you, personally, like more. Both might teach us something, but we won't know for sure until we try. And we will never, ever know which one is better.
Edit 2: Looking more closely, Celebi is an excellent example of 'Stop the Secondary'. It is immune to Leech Seed, Cures status by switching out via Natural Cure, and can Trick a Scarf of its own. It also has access to powerful moves like Leaf Storm, and has great all-around stats, so it isn't limited in any way.
As for what I would expect out of this concept, I think it would be interesting if we had one side as a speed demon, possibly utilizing Speed Boost, while the other side was a wall, maybe with something like a beefed up Solid Rock. Also, I just like rooting for the underdog.
EDIT: Guys, I think we have to face it here; neither of these concepts are 100% original. While it is easier to find examples of Two Sided Attack, Stop the Secondary also has look-alikes. Celebi, Suicune, Blissey. They all stop, or at least hinder, the 'secondary' in some way, especially Celebi, who can run Trick Scarf itself. However, both concepts are worth pursuing. It really just boils down to which one you, personally, like more. Both might teach us something, but we won't know for sure until we try. And we will never, ever know which one is better.
Edit 2: Looking more closely, Celebi is an excellent example of 'Stop the Secondary'. It is immune to Leech Seed, Cures status by switching out via Natural Cure, and can Trick a Scarf of its own. It also has access to powerful moves like Leaf Storm, and has great all-around stats, so it isn't limited in any way.
Celebi, Suicune, and Blissey are not even close to be seen as a look-alike to moi's concept. Ok, Celebi can run TrickScarf if it wants to, but does it like being poisoned? Or does it enjoy being Taunted? Standard Celebi doesn't like to be Tricked, nor does it enjoy taking entry hazard damage. Suicune absolutely hates being Tricked, since it's most common sets run Calm Mind. It still takes full damage from entry hazards, Taunt messes it up, Leech Seed is a pain. Blissey obviously dislikes Trick, Taunt, Leech Seed, Toxic, entry hazards, etc.
Remember that this concept is not meant to cover all of these affects, just a variety of them; but Celebi, Blissey, and Suicune do not cover a variety of them at all.
No, this isn't true.
Billymills' concept does not necessarily mean it has to be offensive, it doesn't even specifically say it has to be offensive anywhere. Who said it has to have high Attack or high Special Attack? For all I know, it could be a Pokemon with high Defense and high Special Defense, but is incapable of using a mixture of both.
I never said it had to be offensive either, but in any case, high speed is still warranted. If it takes the role of any mixture of tank, sweeper, utility or stall, pick any two and you'll need speed.
The other stats were suggestions to think about when applying the concept. If it needs to be good at one job while being horrible at another job it can be good at, perhaps its stats should reflect that.
Since when did stall/tank/wall-oriented Pokemon need Speed? I don't see any lightning-speed hippos or pink blobs.
Anyway, this is kind of derailing from what we're supposed to be discussing.
This is absolute bullshit. There are pokemon that could qualify, but that's part of the concept: IT'S OPEN. Moi's concept was done as recently as LAST CAP.
Which one do you think has been done more?
The main point of my concept is not that it hasn't been done before, but that we do it to an extreme level. OVER-exaggerate it (don't overpower it). If we create something that is underwhelming, then we learn nothing. Only by looking at the very limits of a project do we actually learn something about it.
Since you mentioned Cyclohm, the last CAP, might I point out that your concept was also done then?
From what I understand, you are essentially implying that what you want to create is a Pokemon that can be used in a number of different ways. Cyclohm can play a multitude of roles, but one has to choose. You can have a Cyclohm that is a physical tank, or a Cyclohm that is a special sweeper.
None of the movesets on Fuzznip's analysis of Cyclohm TRUELY compromise between the two. There is instant recovery on the Life Orb set, and there is special moves on the Physical Tank set. However, neither take COMPLETE advantage of both Cyclohm's physical defense and special attack stats at the same time.
The issue, however, is not so much that the concept has been done before, the issue is which concept are we more likely to learn from. It is my opinion that we will learn more from moi's concept.
It isn't fair to rule out one concept or another because there are similarities to existing OU Pokemon. The finite nature of the game means some parallels are inevitable. Flygon and Scizor were 'the perfect scouts' until CAP7.
Because I'm supporting billymills' submission, I'd like to say that people aren't really exploring the potential scope of a concept like this. It can go way beyond the difference between Physical and Special builds. The ability Simple is one way of creating a huge gap between this Pokemon's offensive and defensive capabilities, with the 4 move limit creating a natural restriction disallowing it from boosting both sides effectively. Dichotomous abilties like Swift Swim and Chlorophyll, and Tinted Lens and Filter are another way. You could even assemble roles that don't have much of anything to do with one another with a couple of random abilities like Trace and Compoundeyes. And those are just using possible methods with abilities alone.
The possibilities are a lot bigger than some people seem to framing.
Because I'm supporting billymills' submission, I'd like to say that people aren't really exploring the potential scope of a concept like this. It can go way beyond the difference between Physical and Special builds. The ability Simple is one way of creating a huge gap between this Pokemon's offensive and defensive capabilities, with the 4 move limit creating a natural restriction disallowing it from boosting both sides effectively. Dichotomous abilties like Swift Swim and Chlorophyll, and Tinted Lens and Filter are another way. You could even assemble roles that don't have much of anything to do with one another with a couple of random abilities like Trace and Compoundeyes. And those are just using possible methods with abilities alone.
The possibilities are a lot bigger than some people seem to framing.
I think I've finally decided to vote for moi's Stop The Secondary though I am a little nervous as to where this could go for reason's mostly stated above. Plus' theme is all about what we can learn and I believe we have the most to learn from moi's concept. Not to say I don't think there isn't anything to learn from billymills' Two-Sided Attack but I find it less interesting than Stop The Secondary which I feel is an experiment that we should test.
Stop The Secondary could easily be a complete failure in my honest opinion as the concept is revolutionary in it's goal but it has a deliscious high risk, high reward sense about it. Two-Sided Attack I'm sure would/will be a great CaP but my personal interests aren't in just creating a wonderful pokemon but in the bigger picture, the metagame and the chance at experimentation we have.
Edit: Cartoons brings up some good points above me, so in response to that, I'd like to agree that Two-Sided Attack has a broader scope than I for one really thought about but I still support moi's concept as I think it represents the bigger unknown, or grey area if you will. I must stick by my previous arguments in saying I still believe the metagame is at a point where we can learn more overall from Stop The Secondary. Though if something like Two-Sided Attack or very similiar comes up in the next CaP I will not be shy in supporting it. Not yet though.
I think the key word in moi's concept is variety as many before me have pointed out, but hey, can't hurt to mention it again, right? :P
Thanks to both for the concepts and kicking off Cap 9!!
Stop The Secondary could easily be a complete failure in my honest opinion as the concept is revolutionary in it's goal but it has a deliscious high risk, high reward sense about it. Two-Sided Attack I'm sure would/will be a great CaP but my personal interests aren't in just creating a wonderful pokemon but in the bigger picture, the metagame and the chance at experimentation we have.
Edit: Cartoons brings up some good points above me, so in response to that, I'd like to agree that Two-Sided Attack has a broader scope than I for one really thought about but I still support moi's concept as I think it represents the bigger unknown, or grey area if you will. I must stick by my previous arguments in saying I still believe the metagame is at a point where we can learn more overall from Stop The Secondary. Though if something like Two-Sided Attack or very similiar comes up in the next CaP I will not be shy in supporting it. Not yet though.
I think the key word in moi's concept is variety as many before me have pointed out, but hey, can't hurt to mention it again, right? :P
Thanks to both for the concepts and kicking off Cap 9!!
Once again, you misunderstand. I never said for the pokemon to function it HAD to have speed. I'm saying that speed would be helpful whatever it did. Also, this pokemon would not be switching between being a stall to a tank because its easy to make it 2-in-1 which is not what the concept is about. High speed helps make it offensive when it needs to be and more successful in other fields.
And yes, we may be derailing, but good points are being brought up nonetheless...
I'm honestly getting rather riled up at this bullshit. You are all overgeneralizing. Every single concept has been done to an extent - the point of my concept is that it does both sides EQUALLY. There is no reason to assume it chooses one side over another.
I've been repeatedly told, Lucario already does this, but quite honestly it doesn't. The SD set is so overpowering, the Specs set is nothing but a mere surprise set, countering anything Lucario lures in. A more powerful Special Gyarados if you will. The concept, as it is described, does not exist. Please stop saying it does, or at least justifying your vote with such a reason.
Voted for Stop the Secondary:
Why? I like the use of some set up pokes, but many times they're just impossible to gain their advatage because of the "secondary" factors. Also many teams use them to get advantage, so I would like to see, what can they do without that advantage.
Also many pokemon are jsut going to UU or BL because of their great weakness to "secondary" factors (most flying pokes), so I think its time to give them an opportunity to shine.
Why? I like the use of some set up pokes, but many times they're just impossible to gain their advatage because of the "secondary" factors. Also many teams use them to get advantage, so I would like to see, what can they do without that advantage.
Also many pokemon are jsut going to UU or BL because of their great weakness to "secondary" factors (most flying pokes), so I think its time to give them an opportunity to shine.
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