CaP isnt concerned with what an ability suggests, Arghonaut has Unaware, but Keen Eye would be better suited to the art design. In many instances abilities don't follow typing or appearance, like Houndoom and Early Bird, they don't seem related in the slightest, or Absol the "Disaster" Pokemon, having Super Luck.
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CAP 9 CAP 9 - Concept Assessment
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CaP isnt concerned with what an ability suggests, Arghonaut has Unaware, but Keen Eye would be better suited to the art design. In many instances abilities don't follow typing or appearance, like Houndoom and Early Bird, they don't seem related in the slightest, or Absol the "Disaster" Pokemon, having Super Luck.
I think the major issue at the moment is whether CAP9 should be immune to secondary effects, be able to punish users of secondary moves, or a combination of the two....and if a combination, the amount of ability to do each.
I'd say CAP9 could trend more toward the 'punishing' side of the spectrum - getting just enough immunities to make use of to switch in, and its offensive power then scaring off the secondary move user (Pursuit could obviously be a key part of CAP9's movepool if this were to be the case), which could allow the rest of the team to be taken out (or at least rack up some passive damage with your own entry hazards) before dealing with the secondary user(s) by themselves....
So in this mindeset, CAP9 could be about 65-75% punisher, 25-35% immunity for optimum effectiveness....
I'd say CAP9 could trend more toward the 'punishing' side of the spectrum - getting just enough immunities to make use of to switch in, and its offensive power then scaring off the secondary move user (Pursuit could obviously be a key part of CAP9's movepool if this were to be the case), which could allow the rest of the team to be taken out (or at least rack up some passive damage with your own entry hazards) before dealing with the secondary user(s) by themselves....
So in this mindeset, CAP9 could be about 65-75% punisher, 25-35% immunity for optimum effectiveness....
That's similar to what i'm saying. There are two parts that can be geared up, the immunity side which is passive and necessary for switching in, and the conceptual side, which contains all of the things positive for you and negative for the opponent. If both are utilized, then this CAP can go the right way.
Also, neither Poison-types nor Steel-types can make use of Poison Heal, regardless of whether or not "it fits".
Edit: Holding a "mail" item could work to stop Trick, and is there any other item that helps with the concept? Toxic/Flame orbs are all I can think of...
Also, neither Poison-types nor Steel-types can make use of Poison Heal, regardless of whether or not "it fits".
Edit: Holding a "mail" item could work to stop Trick, and is there any other item that helps with the concept? Toxic/Flame orbs are all I can think of...
Isn't trick blocked by "Mails"?
http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/mosaic_mail
Though it takes up the itemslot it means that you don't need abilities like sticky hold or multitype to block trick.
http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/mosaic_mail
Though it takes up the itemslot it means that you don't need abilities like sticky hold or multitype to block trick.
Why not just have a Steel / Grass with Volt Absorb, Limber, Guts, Cloud Nine, or Sticky Hold.
Or we could make something with Burn status prevention. Also, this leaves the hole for Spikes and SR.
Guts, by abusing status makes it good, but also this isn't an offensive pokemon.
Personally I think Steel / Grass with Volt Absorb is good, as it prevents Thunder Wave, Leech Seed, Sandstorm, Toxic, and Paralysis (If Limber), and Trick (if Sticky Hold)
Or we could make something with Burn status prevention. Also, this leaves the hole for Spikes and SR.
Guts, by abusing status makes it good, but also this isn't an offensive pokemon.
Personally I think Steel / Grass with Volt Absorb is good, as it prevents Thunder Wave, Leech Seed, Sandstorm, Toxic, and Paralysis (If Limber), and Trick (if Sticky Hold)
Macho Brace can be used to stop Trick. I read this in the Bronzong strategy section. The original idea was that you could Gyro Ball at maximum power with the speed reduction and when opponents try to switch in to take it (for example with Heatran), you could Trick them and gain the upper hand (threatening with Earthquake).
For CAP9, it won't work overly well if it gets locked onto Gyro Ball from a choice item though, but the Tricker still gets crippled...
Why not? We're not supposed to be countering as much as possible, but just a few (hopefully, all with the future movelist) as been suggested earlier in the discussion of abilities.
EDIT: You basically ripped off what I said about Grass/Steel with Volt Absorb...
I personally think this invites BlisseyXFlamethrower As well as fire or fighting pokemon in general to come in as counters.
Isn't this just supposed to be an absorber for things like status? I'm confused now. Lol.
Black Sludge and Full Incense/Lagging Tail/Iron Ball are each hold items that are useful in certain hands (i.e. Poison-types and pokemon that want to go last, etc.), but hurtful when Tricked. I would assume these apply?
(in that case, it could be very promising for Trickblocking if CAP9 was part-Poison, though it may need a type resistant to Psychic so the more common Trick-users don't just kill it with STAB Psychic moves....)
It could just be Steel type...
One thing to note about carrying bad items to deter Trick is that even if you do "absorb" a Trick, your opponent can just Trick it to something of yours later on.
Yes, these items may be detrimental to the Tricker at first, but then it can just trick it again to another one of your Pokemon, therefore Black Sludge, Macho Brace, etc. would not be reliable ways of stopping Trick. Unless you can work around that, Trick is just too powerful.
Ok so apparently I was outsped by familyguyman, but you get my point.
If you want to take that into account, you could give CAP9 a choice item (maybe not scarf). Tricker uses Trick, you hit back for massive damage, they switch out, you get a free switch in. Of course, you'll have to be aware the Tricker did survive, but you can always get another pokemon to Shadow Sneak/Extremespeed the weakened blighter.
Of course, your point that Trick is too powerful is completely legitimate because when I described how to counter it, I wasn't thinking about how it would counter other secondaries.
Holding a negative item like Macho Brace or Black Sludge doesn't really stop trick. It just lets your opponent's tricker cripple two of your Pokemon. Unless you perfectly predict when that Trick is coming again, you'll find you get that negative item right back on a different Pokemon.
EDIT: Hmm, bit late on that one.
Anyways, probably the best way to stop Choiced Trick is to make sure the tricker still has a Choice item, then Pursuit them on the switch out. Obviously things like CBTar already do this, but being able to do that without a Choice item would be better, especially because the Choice item you get tends to be less than beneficial.
EDIT: Hmm, bit late on that one.
Anyways, probably the best way to stop Choiced Trick is to make sure the tricker still has a Choice item, then Pursuit them on the switch out. Obviously things like CBTar already do this, but being able to do that without a Choice item would be better, especially because the Choice item you get tends to be less than beneficial.
So the only no-questions-asked ways prevent Trick is Sticky Hold or Klutz, or to hold a non-Trickable item? That does seem hard to fully counter....
Edit: Fair enough. Trick isn't as important when compared to other secondaries.
I'll step back on the topic of Trick for a while.
This time, I'm siding with Fuzznip. It happened with Multitype and its happening now. You're focusing way too much on Trick.
You're also forgetting that Trickers aren't stupid. If they want to Trick choice items, they'll do it at the start to ensure a switchout. If its near the end, they'll Trick anyone to ease prediction. Let's face it, the only way to counter Trick is with mail/Klutz/Sticky Hold.
Also, as Fuzznip said, it isn't necessary to stop Trick even though it is a powerful threat. If we try too hard to counter Trick, then what about other secondaries? Not every team uses Trick, but I'm sure there's always a Twave or Roar or Hypnosis....
Yes, it can be ignored. For all intents and purposes, Trick is supposed to cause a switch and most of the time, gain leftovers (because Trickers aren't dumb). However, if you find half or even a third of your team paralysed and you don't have a cleric (or it got taunted or KOed), you're in deeps.
Other secondaries cause switches too, but dealing with those requires less specialisation. Therefore, Trick can be ignored in favour of other secondaries.
You're also forgetting that Trickers aren't stupid. If they want to Trick choice items, they'll do it at the start to ensure a switchout. If its near the end, they'll Trick anyone to ease prediction. Let's face it, the only way to counter Trick is with mail/Klutz/Sticky Hold.
Also, as Fuzznip said, it isn't necessary to stop Trick even though it is a powerful threat. If we try too hard to counter Trick, then what about other secondaries? Not every team uses Trick, but I'm sure there's always a Twave or Roar or Hypnosis....
Yes, it can be ignored. For all intents and purposes, Trick is supposed to cause a switch and most of the time, gain leftovers (because Trickers aren't dumb). However, if you find half or even a third of your team paralysed and you don't have a cleric (or it got taunted or KOed), you're in deeps.
Other secondaries cause switches too, but dealing with those requires less specialisation. Therefore, Trick can be ignored in favour of other secondaries.
I think that a solid idea would be to give this Pokemon an ability that benefits from either Flame Orb or Toxic Orb (Poison Heal, Guts, etc.).
For one, it'd open up our typing. One of the easiest ways to take opposing status is to inflict it on yourself anyways. This means that, not only is CAP 9 getting benefits from hitting itself with status, it can be a wider variety of types, as it no longer needs to be, say, Steel to dodge Poison.
To a certain extent, it helps against Trick. Sure, the opponent can Trick it off later on, but in the meantime, Rotom, say, is now heavily poisoned. In Sandstorm, especially, it's still a pretty heavy burden (especially if CAP 9 was given Poison Heal).
To cap it off, it'd provide a powerful bonus that could help in different roles depending on which ability we give it. Poison Heal would be a great help for defensive purposes, while Guts or Quick Feet could contribute towards a strong offense. Whatever else we decide to make it, the ability could help "back up."
For one, it'd open up our typing. One of the easiest ways to take opposing status is to inflict it on yourself anyways. This means that, not only is CAP 9 getting benefits from hitting itself with status, it can be a wider variety of types, as it no longer needs to be, say, Steel to dodge Poison.
To a certain extent, it helps against Trick. Sure, the opponent can Trick it off later on, but in the meantime, Rotom, say, is now heavily poisoned. In Sandstorm, especially, it's still a pretty heavy burden (especially if CAP 9 was given Poison Heal).
To cap it off, it'd provide a powerful bonus that could help in different roles depending on which ability we give it. Poison Heal would be a great help for defensive purposes, while Guts or Quick Feet could contribute towards a strong offense. Whatever else we decide to make it, the ability could help "back up."
I don't think that encouraging items like Macho Brace/Lagging Tail for this Pokemon are good solutions, as they simply encourage tricking to another Pokemon.
Being able to absorb status, however, is better, as it adds to immunities while punishing trickers at the same time, even if they do manage to trick it off later.
Being able to absorb status, however, is better, as it adds to immunities while punishing trickers at the same time, even if they do manage to trick it off later.
One thing we should avoid if we give it Poison Heal is making CAP9 another Breloom. Breloom already can stop status with its Toxic Orb (although not on the switch-in) and use Substitute to block some other secondary moves. It has a Grass type to prevent Leech Seed too. This makes Poison Heal not the way to go with CAP9, because if we made another Breloom, we wouldn't learn much about the metagame.
If we go the Trick-blocking route, Sticky Hold is the best option. Multitype would lead to a crazy movepool and a Pokemon possibly broken in its utility; Klutz and a negative item would just allow the Tricker to cripple another Pokemon with its item. Blocking Trick is important to CAP9 due to the metagame's current lack of a Trick counter, so Sticky Hold is the way to go. Status could be dealt with by giving CAP9 a typing that makes it resist two types of status (e.g. Poison / Fire or Steel / Ground). CAP9 should have a type that is helpful for combating entry hazards, possibly including Poison for Toxic Spikes removal and another type that resists Rock.
If we go the Trick-blocking route, Sticky Hold is the best option. Multitype would lead to a crazy movepool and a Pokemon possibly broken in its utility; Klutz and a negative item would just allow the Tricker to cripple another Pokemon with its item. Blocking Trick is important to CAP9 due to the metagame's current lack of a Trick counter, so Sticky Hold is the way to go. Status could be dealt with by giving CAP9 a typing that makes it resist two types of status (e.g. Poison / Fire or Steel / Ground). CAP9 should have a type that is helpful for combating entry hazards, possibly including Poison for Toxic Spikes removal and another type that resists Rock.
I don't like Klutz. You can't use an item and trick users just trick it onto another one of your pokémon. And the ability's only benefit won't be useful in many battles anyway. I don't particularly like Sticky Hold either, simply because I think trick isn't all we should be worrying about. I think to really achieve the potential of this concept, we need to really utilize its ability, in all likelihood necessitating the creation of a new one. It's been done before. I'm personally in favor of something that blocks various effects upon switching in and maybe a few turns afterward. This is something that really hasn't seen before, and I think it could make the metagame much more interesting.
Imagine, for an instant (trying not to poll jump, this is just one of infinity possible outcomes):
CaP9 @ Choice Scarf
Type: Dark/Fighting
Ability: Klutz
Stats: high Atk, Spe, moderate-good Defenses, about zero SpA
Nature/EVs: +Spe Nature, max Atk + Spe
Pursuit
Close Combat
Trick
Taunt (or new Taunt-like field effect move)/ Rapid Spin/ Aromatherapy
Scenario: Common Trickster comes in, goes for the Trick. You send in CaP9 and they trade Scarves, so they have to switch or whatever. You get the easy Pursuit (hits most common Tricksters SE) AND can Trick your own Scarf away from there and otherwise shuffle items around the opposing team without caring what they are. Fourth move helps with another class of secondary moves you want to "stop."
How does this pokemon stop Trick? That part should be obvious. How does it stop other status? Speedy Taunts, Aromatherapy, ability to Trick Scarf ANYTIME. Rapid Spin could stop entry hazards (what ghost will want to switch-in here besides Scarf Gengar with the risky Focus Blast?), or Aromatherapy could heal CaP9 and its teammates from status (whichever benefits your team more), all the while being a strong physical threat.
Basically what I'm trying to say is Klutz is a great ability to have on a "Stop the Secondary" pokemon.
CaP9 @ Choice Scarf
Type: Dark/Fighting
Ability: Klutz
Stats: high Atk, Spe, moderate-good Defenses, about zero SpA
Nature/EVs: +Spe Nature, max Atk + Spe
Pursuit
Close Combat
Trick
Taunt (or new Taunt-like field effect move)/ Rapid Spin/ Aromatherapy
Scenario: Common Trickster comes in, goes for the Trick. You send in CaP9 and they trade Scarves, so they have to switch or whatever. You get the easy Pursuit (hits most common Tricksters SE) AND can Trick your own Scarf away from there and otherwise shuffle items around the opposing team without caring what they are. Fourth move helps with another class of secondary moves you want to "stop."
How does this pokemon stop Trick? That part should be obvious. How does it stop other status? Speedy Taunts, Aromatherapy, ability to Trick Scarf ANYTIME. Rapid Spin could stop entry hazards (what ghost will want to switch-in here besides Scarf Gengar with the risky Focus Blast?), or Aromatherapy could heal CaP9 and its teammates from status (whichever benefits your team more), all the while being a strong physical threat.
Basically what I'm trying to say is Klutz is a great ability to have on a "Stop the Secondary" pokemon.
I agree that a custom ability has a very strong possibility of working. If we were to make something that, for example , stops status while holding mail, that eliminates two threats right away. If this was done, however, we would have to decide about entry hazards; either how to stop them or whether to do it at all.
Well, in all honesty, I'd rather not have an ability that essentially necessitates a certain item on the pokémon. It allows for very little variety. On the other hand, we could have two abilities and then it might work.
Well, I was just giving an example.
I believe many different abilities could work.
I believe many different abilities could work.
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