CAP 9 CAP 9 - Secondary Typing Discussion

[dorkknight23]

I think the overwhelming support for Dark in the main typing thread says something about what we're looking for in CAP9. We need an offensive poké with the muscle to scare off common secondary type abusers and otherwise neutralize their strategy.

Poison: I am concerned about seeing another Drapion or Skuntank, who even with other moves wouldn't do much about stopping the secondary. If this is the case, we'd definitely want to lean more towards offensive attributes than defensive ones. Also, absorbing toxic spikes isn't as much of a priority, especially if we lean towards Rapid Spin. Of the more popular suggestions listed, it's the one that I'm least excited.

Ground: Ground would mitigate some of the "defensive"/stalling issues discussed in the previous thread. The best advantage it seems to have is Electric Immunity, SR resist, and STAB Earthquake. The biggest disadvantage would be the vulnerability to Secondary-using bulky waters (Vaporeon immediately comes to mind,) who could still come in and shrug off an attack, unless CAP9 is very much a glass cannon and packing a move like Thunderpunch. But still, I think this glaring vulnerability outweighs the benefit.

Fighting: Doug raised a good point about how common Fighting is for CAP. However, I still see it as a viable option, with SR resist, near-universal STAB-attack-neutrality, and a highly useful offensive type for taking down a wide range of secondary users.

For right now, my support stands behind Fighting, but I'm still reading the thread and formulating my opinion.

 

[Robo-Ky]

Doug's post has rendered me speechless (well, not exactly). I agree 100% - Fighting pretty much only has as much ground as it does because it is an awesome type - and while it would make a great choice on CAP9, it really wouldn't add that much to the concept, and I would personally like for us to make something with a little more creativity.

Because of this, I am beginning to push more and more towards Ground. Despite the weaknesses it would add, it wouldn't have any 4x weaknesses, it would add the ever-important Thunder Wave immunity and Stealth Rock resistance, and it would be a much better overall typing than Poison (which is generally more of a defensively biased type). Though plenty of common Trick users have SE moves, Trick will definitely not be the only thing we will use this against - there are plenty of other secondary users that CAP9 could take down with super effective Ground STAB, like Heatran and Metagross.

I was saying that IF we gave Cap 9 magic gaurd, then a ground type would not be harmed by any of the effects, while poison would be slowed by paralysis.

And i realize there are many weaknesses, but we are trying to stop secondary, not build a wall.

Were we to give this guy Magic Guard, it would likely defeat the purpose of selecting a typing that makes it immune to certain effects (though I digress - Magic Guard only prevents damage from indirect sources, as opposed to all secondary effects). Quite simply, Magic Guard would be too useful and unoriginal on this Pokemon.

 

[Deck Knight]

I think its time to break it down in a literal sense. It's type chart time.

In the order I support:

Dark/Fighting:
Immunities: Psychic
Resistances: Ghost, Rock, Dark(4x)
Weaknesses: Fighting, Flying

Dark/Fighting is notably for neutralities. Fighting is its only common weakness, and Skarmory is the only secondary user that can exploit Flying, although I suppose if Crobat makes a bif for OU that will change. Doug is correct in labeling this a "safe" option, as it is the most difficult to hit for Super-Effective damage without resorting to Hidden Power. Offensively it provides nearly unresisted coverage, and STAB makes Brick Break better than just filler on potential sets. Secondaries often set up or hide behind screens to do their dirty work.

"It's not exotic enough" is not a competitive argument. Typing should maximize effectiveness, there are better places to look for "exotic" applications.

Dark/Ground:
Immunities: Psychic, Electric, Sandstorm
Resistances: Ghost, Rock, Poison
Weaknesses: Fighting, Bug, Water, Grass, Ice

Dark/Ground has a lot more weaknesses, but a crucial immunity to Electric as well as Sandstorm. It trades this, sadly, for an array of common weaknesses to support pokemon. Bulky Waters are probably the biggest offenders here, not particularly fearing even Earthquake or Earth Power and being able to use their statuses fairly easily. Dark/Ground also has a considerable Levitating Steel problem.

Dark/Poison:
Immunities: Psychic, Toxic Spikes(absorbs)
Resistances: Ghost, Dark, Poison, Grass
Weaknesses: Ground

Dark/Poison's biggest problem isn't defense, its offense. With more Gravity in play, Dark/Ground can probably get around the flying/levitating problem, but Dark/Poison is utterly walled by most Steels barring some serious movepool tweaks. It is also the only of the 3 types that couldn't capitalize on Guts effectively, since Toxic is more prevalent than Burn.

 

[Brambane]

@Deck

For Poison, isnt Earthquake/Earth Power or Fire Blast enough to handle Steel types? That's not that much of a movepool tweak. I mean, Skuntank can use Fire Blast, and Drapion can use EQ, if you are going of a same typing bases.

Also, not sure if this is the place for it, but congrats on the Ladybug, you didn't have it before iirc.

 

[Walvren]

Dark/Poison doesn't necessarily have to be played defensively. Look at Lucario for example. It's Steel-type, but doesn't take a defensive direction whatsoever.

I mean, we could easily solve Dark/Poison's horrible offensive play by using Ground-type moves like Earthquake. That would just screw up Lucario, Heatran, Metagross, etc. that may like to switch into this to absorb the STAB attacks. Even though it may not have STAB on it, it doesn't "really" matter in my opinion.

For the purposes of stopping the secondary, Dark/Poison is more defensive than Dark/Ground because of Toxic immunity vs Twave immunity. Dark/Poison isn't meant to be used as a Lucario/Heatran/Metagross counter especially since these pokemon don't use secondaries much. If these pokemon get in the way, it is not an absolute priority that you KO them with CAP9 (especially since Metagross can't even be tickled by an un-STAB EQ)

Also, your Lucario example doesn't prove anything. Sure its Steel, but it is offensively based innately because of its "purpose".

What I'm saying here is that Dark/Poison is better suited for defense if WE give it defensive stats and/or abilities and that Dark/Ground is better suited for offense if WE give it offensive stats and/or abilties.

 

[boo836]

I'm going to be funny and say Dark/Fire can also be a choice.

Why? Because I'm very sure that Dark/Fire is immune to Burns. That means that those random Burns from Fire Blasts/ Flamethrowers can't happen. And I'm sure that this concept is Stop the Secondary. Dark/Fire is also weak to Ground, Fighting, Water, Rock. I admit, those are pretty common types but it has a few cool resistances too. It's resistant to Steel, Fire, Dark, Ice, Ghost, Grass and it is immune to Psychic. Dark+Fire hits almost everything for neutral too. Besides maybe Tyranitar, Poliwrath, Kabutops, ect.

 

[beej]

Yeah after considering this for a while, I've grown to really really like Dark/Ground. As Doug said, Fighting is a great typing, but we shouldn't just slap it onto this Pokemon for that reason, especially considering that we've already done it three times before. Ground grants the same Rock resistance and still provides good coverage (arguably better coverage against many grounded Steels). In addition, the usefulness of the Electric immunity cannot be overstated here. While statuses like poison and burn are really annoying and difficult to switch into, for obvious reasons, they're also some of the easiest to deal with if said Pokemon is given some kind of ability to gain from status. Unless we give this Quick Feet, which I think has the potential to be counter-productive on the basis that we could very easily end up covering only status, being slowed down by paralysis is definitely the worst thing that can happen to this Pokemon in terms of status, other than being frozen or put to sleep. A Thunder Wave immunity is invaluable for this reason, and this is a large thing that Ground has over Fighting.

I think a lot of people need to realize that we're not making some kind of immunity tank here, and if we make the typing reflect that we are, it could very easily affect the outcome of this CAP negatively. "Stop the secondary" is not synonymous with "be immune to the secondary", and if we focus entirely on making this capable of switching into everything with its millions of immunities, we run a serious risk of making a Pokemon that is only capable of defending against the secondary and will end up doing little to actually invalidate strategies revolving around secondary damage. I believe that the approach we ought to be taking with this Pokemon is not a defensive one or supporting one, but instead a very aggressive one that creates a monster that will prey upon teams that abuse the secondary. I think that Dark/Ground is the best way to go about doing that.

 

[familyguyman]

To demonstrate why Ground would be too weak defensively to be viable,

Swampert (no investment) vs Base 100 HP/90 SpD Pokemon Ground type(Max HP) is 2HKO'd by Surf and that's a pretty "weak" Surf on a pretty bulky Pokemon.

Basically, CAP9 would have to be EXTREMELY bulky or have to switch against users of Bug, Water, Ice, Fighting and Grass moves which is a wide variety of fairly powerful Pokemon. I seriously think CAP9 would die a lot and end up like Cyclohm.

Essentially, I don't know if we can't not use Fighting and be capable enough offensively (Poison) or defensively (Ground).

 

[beej]

familyguyman, I really don't understand your concerns at all. Dark/Ground is not an effective typing for the concept "stop the secondary" because it doesn't take a super effective STAB attack from a wall very well? Considering that Swampert's only common form of secondary damage abuse is Stealth Rock + Roar, CAP9 will probably never find itself trying to deal with Swampert at all. Assuming we keep the concept in mind (and go the more offensive route that I'm suggesting), the only time they will ever really face off is when Swampert is switching INTO CAP9 after it forces out the secondary damage abuser, in which case it may very well be at the mercy of an extremely powerful Guts attacker, or some other strategy that takes advantage of whatever secondary damaging moves the opponent attempted to use.

Remember, the concept here is "stop the secondary", not "not be stopped by the secondary". The act of outright stopping something is considerably more aggressive an action than a lot of people might expect.

 

[zorbees]

Poison/Dark isn't as offensively inept as I previously thought. In OU, the only things that resist both would be CAP9 and any non-Psychic Steel type, of which there are 6 (hi Magnezone and Dugtrio?). That's certainly acceptable coverage, especially when we can do custom moves (probably a Dark type). Poison also stops secondaries quite well. It further limits Toxic Spikes (providing team support) and can absorb Toxic all day long.

Actually there are 7 Steels that are non-Psychic (Empoleon, Forretress, Heatran, Lucario, Magnezone, Scizor, Skarmory) as well as Tyranitar that resist the combo.

 

[Frosty]

Based on the little I read, we chose Dark with the argument that "it will help against trick users" and because "we can handle the other specific secondary moves/hazards with the secondary typing/abilities/moves". I don't actually agree with this line of thought, but that is beside the point.

Anyway, with that in mind, I think we really should focus more on countering common secondary moves than on slapping a secondary typing that will go well in terms of raw offense/defense with dark. As Doug has said, a second typing chosen based on the latter will be probably the safiest option, but it won't be, by far, the best way to fulfill the concept itself. In fact, it will give us something like Kitsunoh: a good pokemon overall that doesn't quite do what it was supposed to.

That being said, let's compare both ground and fighting types, shall we? Ground gives CAP9 a nice resistance to SR, immunity to sandstorm and thunder wave, while being able to hit two of the most common trick users (metagross and jirachi) SE and the rare Toxic Spiker poison type (read: Tentacruel), not to mention that STAB Earthquake is always nice. Fighting, on the other hand, gives us a resist to rock. Full Stop. It doesn't hit any tricker I can think of SE (in fact, a lot of them resist fighting) and doesn't really contribute to the concept. Sure it makes a very nice combination offensively and defensively, but, as I said, this isn't supposed to be a "overall good poke", or this project would be too easy (read: boring)...it is meant to be a secondary moves stopper, and, in that sense, ground is in many ways superior to fighting.

So vote ground.

 

[familyguyman]

familyguyman, I really don't understand your concerns at all. Dark/Ground is not an effective typing for the concept "stop the secondary" because it doesn't take a super effective STAB attack from a wall very well? Considering that Swampert's only common form of secondary damage abuse is Stealth Rock + Roar, CAP9 will probably never find itself trying to deal with Swampert at all. Assuming we keep the concept in mind (and go the more offensive route that I'm suggesting), the only time they will ever really face off is when Swampert is switching INTO CAP9 after it forces out the secondary damage abuser, in which case it may very well be at the mercy of an extremely powerful Guts attacker, or some other strategy that takes advantage of whatever secondary damaging moves the opponent attempted to use.

Remember, the concept here is "stop the secondary", not "not be stopped by the secondary". The act of outright stopping something is considerably more aggressive an action than a lot of people might expect.

I understand this, my point is more competitively speaking if CAP9 can't take a weak Surf from Swampert, how will it deal with a Starmie Surf? Or Latias? What about Specs attacks? Or Ice Beams? Leaf Storm? Etc. If it's supposed to crush these Trickers, being 2HKO'd isn't going to help much. Fulfilling the concept is one thing, which can be done more than one way, but we shouldn't lose track of competitive value. Perhaps I am just a bit jaded from Cyclohm.

Actually there are 7 Steels that are non-Psychic (Empoleon, Forretress, Heatran, Lucario, Magnezone, Scizor, Skarmory) as well as Tyranitar that resist the combo.

Hmm, good call, I missed a Steel and didn't know Rock resists Poison. Thanks. Still, 9 Pokemon (including CAP9) isn't too terrible.

 

[Raikizen]

Dark/Poison:
Immunities: Psychic, Toxic Spikes(absorbs)
Resistances: Ghost, Dark, Poison, Grass
Weaknesses: Ground

Dark/Poison's biggest problem isn't defense, its offense. With more Gravity in play, Dark/Ground can probably get around the flying/levitating problem, but Dark/Poison is utterly walled by most Steels barring some serious movepool tweaks. It is also the only of the 3 types that couldn't capitalize on Guts effectively, since Toxic is more prevalent than Burn.

I honestly don't like the idea of Guts on CAP9, but that is just my opinion and, as such, it has altered my outlook on everything else. Most poison types actually get a fairly diverse movepool. Thus, I don't think it would be considered a 'serious' movepool tweak. Hell, even Arbok learns Fire Fang, Thunder Fang, and Ice Fang purely because it has teeth. So, flavor will also be taken into context.

 

[Stagnant]

Hmm, it doesn't seem like Steel has any support, so I'll at least state my points and see what happens.

Weaknesses: Fire x2, Fighting x4, Ground x2
Resistances: Normal x1/2, Ice x1/2, Rock x1/2, Psychic x0, Steel x1/2, Dark x1/4, Ghost x1/4, Dragon x1/2, Poison x0, Flying x1/2, Grass x1/2
Neutralities: Bug x1, Water x1, Electric x1

Zorbs post pretty much covers what I would want to say. The wide variety of resistances given help it to switch in. Very important Imo.

 

[Deck Knight]

Firstly, you are wrong there. Magic Guard prevents secondary damage, not effects. Thus, the paralysis part of Thunderwave, Attack Reduction on Burn, and Special Attack Reduction on Toxic all still apply to that Pokemon.

Toxic reduces Special Attack? ...

Also it can be built such that most special attacks don't 2HKO reliably (or at all). It has weaknesses but with an SR resistance and tools to stop secondary damage, as long as it can survive a hit it can do its job and come back later.

I honestly don't like the idea of Guts on CAP9, but that is just my opinion and, as such, it has altered my outlook on everything else. Most poison types actually get a fairly diverse movepool. Thus, I don't think it would be considered a 'serious' movepool tweak. Hell, even Arbok learns Fire Fang, Thunder Fang, and Ice Fang purely because it has teeth. So, flavor will also be taken into context.

CAP generally gets a diverse movepool. Also, we already have a Dark/Poison Pokemon, Drapion. About the only think it lacks is Flamethrower/Fire Blast, yet it still didn't quite hack it in OU.

I have a hard time envisioning now what Dark/Poison would do that Drapion doesn't already do (without say Guts, which you oppose), therefore I'm dropping support for it completely.

 

[Xia]

I'm in favor of a dual Dark/Poison-type CAP. The lack of weaknesses makes movepool choices less geared towards beating theoried counters and more towards offensive power, which is necessary due to Poison's less-than-stellar attacking power. The weakness to Ground could easily be dealt with through its ability, as could secondary effects of status (a combination of Levitate and Marvel Scale would be my main choice).

Having few resistances is necessary on a CAP attempting to completely "stop the secondary", STAB or upping the number of resistances aren't really worth debating, in my mind due to a few good reasons. Frankly, boosts gained by STAB are easily outclassed by the 2x damage caused by diverse moovepools, which many Dark- and Poison-type Pokemon have. Also, the belief that multiple resistances is better than having few weaknesses doesn't really make sense to me; if a Pokemon is taking neutral damage from everything, isn't that better than taking less damage from some and more damage from others? Having defensive typing won't mitigate the influence this CAP has on the current metagame, as moovepool and stat spread have much more impact.

EDIT: And distinguishing this CAP from Drapion will come more from ability, movepool, and stat distribution than typing. In fact, since neither Pokemon will fall within the same niche as the other, comapring Drapion to this CAP would be like comparing Forretress to Scizor; same typing doesn't mean same job.

 

[Gorgoroth]

Having Dark/Poison typing has few weaknesses but that doesn't help it take for example a Heatran Fire Blast (not saying it should be able to). Resistances are more important imo. A souped up Poliwrath was made in CAP 7 now I guess a souped up Drapion/Skuntank is being made.

 

[Raikizen]

Toxic reduces Special Attack? ...

Also it can be built such that most special attacks don't 2HKO reliably (or at all). It has weaknesses but with an SR resistance and tools to stop secondary damage, as long as it can survive a hit it can do its job and come back later.

I don't know what I was thinking of... Thanks for catching that, Deck Knight.

CAP generally gets a diverse movepool. Also, we already have a Dark/Poison Pokemon, Drapion. About the only think it lacks is Flamethrower/Fire Blast, yet it still didn't quite hack it in OU.

I have a hard time envisioning now what Dark/Poison would do that Drapion doesn't already do (without say Guts, which you oppose), therefore I'm dropping support for it completely.

I don't believe we should debase a typing because another Pokemon has that same type. Just because Drapion already has Dark/Poison, does that mean any Dark/Poison after it has to follow its example and be like it?

I can't really argue why Drapion isn't seen more, other than that it is mostly seen as a Swords Dancer or Tank, both of which are easily outclassed in OU by other Pokemon.

 

[Elegy]

Having Dark/Poison typing has few weaknesses but that doesn't help it take for example a Heatran Fire Blast (not saying it should be able to). Resistances are more important imo. A souped up Poliwrath was made in CAP 7 now I guess a souped up Drapion/Skuntank is being made.

Dark/Poison has only 1 weakness (Ground), not "a few"

And CAP6 was Arghonaut, not CAP7.

 

[hydrolphin]

Dark/Poison is currently my favorite combo right now. Sure it has some troubles offensively, but it is solid defensively and it isn't terrible on offense. It also absorbs TS, which has been mentioned already. But I find Dark/Poison interesing for what we can learn about it, which has been a real focus point in this project so far.

As of right now, there are two Poison types in OU (three if you include Fidgit). One of those can't even absorb TS, which is one of the benefits of poison typing. It would be easy to argue that Tentacruel is OU BECAUSE he is poison, and not in spite of it. Poison offers nice benefits, and lacks any major drawbacks besides the fact that Poison can't hurt steels.

This CAP is about stopping the secondary-and Poison does just that. Yes you can kill TS users, but if they already have it up, it won't help much. CAP9 supports its team by absorbing TS for them. That stops the secondary, right?

 

[viol and bass]

Having Dark/Poison typing has few weaknesses but that doesn't help it take for example a Heatran Fire Blast (not saying it should be able to). Resistances are more important imo. A souped up Poliwrath was made in CAP 7 now I guess a souped up Drapion/Skuntank is being made.

You do realize that a pokémon isn't determined entirely by its typing, right? Arghonaut is immensely different from Poliwrath and I think we can assume that CaP9 will be different from Drapion and Skuntank, even if it is dark/poison.

 

[Mattman324]

The problem I'm seeing with dark/poison is that it's going to esentially destroy Fidget. It already is stopping Fidget's secondary moves, and now it's going to take it's role as a T-Spikes absorber? Bad idea.

 

[familyguyman]

The problem I'm seeing with dark/poison is that it's going to esentially destroy Fidget. It already is stopping Fidget's secondary moves, and now it's going to take it's role as a T-Spikes absorber? Bad idea.

Except Fidgit has STAB Ground attacks which can hurt CAP9.

Remember, CAP is supposed to be isolated from OU. The CAP metagame is something done for fun.

 

[landerrous]

As a team option i think dark/poison is best
I dont like the multiple weaknesses that ground would bring. On its own its not terrible given the trade-offs (sandstorm/electric immunity), but as a team option I do not think it would synergize well. Too easily you could find yourself having a team bug/ice/water/fighting/grass weakness making cap9 an ineffective team option.

Dark/Poison could be thrown into just about any team and as far as synergy goes all you need to offset its weakness is something with flying/lev.
I also think cap9 will suffer from 4moveslot syndrome, having it poison would mean that you absorb toxic spikes on switch and would give the option of not running rapid spin (if given).

One point about poison is that you would be not able to give it poison heal as an ability (but i do have something in mind that is similar would work really well for the concept)

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

I believe most of the secondary damage is done by the bulkier Pokemon in the OU metagame (Dusknoir, Celebi, Gliscor, Suicune, Vaporeon, Swampert, Bronzong, Cresselia... I can go on forever here), so we need to find types that can deal damage to all them. I've gone over the types and listed all the Pokemon that they hit SE (Note that only Fighting, Ground and Poison are here 'cause they're the only choices in the poll).

These are the Pokemon that Dark currently hits for super effective damage

Celebi, Cresselia, Dusknoir, Latias, The Rotoms, Alakazam, Gengar, Starmie

These ones below are the additional Pokemon that get hit SE for each secondary type

Dark/Fighting: Blissey, Empoleon, Heatran, Snorlax, Umbreon, Smeargle, Skamory^

Dark/Poison: Breloom

Dark/Ground: Empoleon, Heatran, Jirachi, Tentacruel, Metagross, Bronzong*, Skamory*

*These guys only get hit by Ground attacks when Gravity is active

^Skamory only get hit SE when it Roosts

As you can see, Dark/Ground STABs hit more of the current metagame than Dark/Fighting, even if Gravity is not present. This fact, along with the T-Wave and Sandstorm immunity, is why I'm casting my vote for Ground as the secondary type of choice