I believe that Very Good is okay; you can easily find a spread that's Rank 2/3 on X-Act's Base Stat Rating Calculator and still have enough to distribute to offenses. However, if you want it outright to be a mixed sweeper, Excellent is the way to go. I personally don't want to see this get by physical walls through base stats but rather through movepool, ability, and other factors.
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CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 6 - Stat Rating Discussion
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Okay I'm torn between Excellent and Very Good. With Very Good, I can achieve the stats that are necessary, but with the rather horrendous defensive typing we gave this CAP that should be able to switch in often, I'm feeling that it needs to get that little extra boost. By choosing Excellent I don't want to go overkill with Stat Spreads (I think it is reasonable to stay under the 500 mark), and I don't want to nerf its ability or movepool, and thus I am torn.
For now at least, I'm going to say Excellent.
For now at least, I'm going to say Excellent.
Excellent is the way to go since I don't think we can fit in all the demands we're making on CAP9 without going into Excellent, albeit by a small amount. Seeing that we're asking for solid defences on both sides and a very good Attack stat, it's difficult to make it balanced and Very Good even with a mediocre Spd stat and a 60-70 Sp.Attack. It's of course possible to get a decent spread with Very Good but you have to sacrifice some bulk or some much-needed attack power and all this assuming a not-so-good speed. Very Good is a somewhat OK choice, but if what we're looking for is a good Speed stat in addition, Excellent is the best option.
Can someone explain to me why so many people are saying we need acceptable special attack when it's been decided that this CaP is purely physical?
Because noone likes that idea. They don't care about the idea of pokemon like FB snorelax (not half bad in advanced), they want to do the same thing the've done with every other CAP and have _every_ stat just about the same.
Personally, I like the limits of Very good myself, if only to keep us from putting outrageous stats on this thing.
I'm saying Very Good because it does pose some limits... I'd prefer to see a CAP that fits more of a niche role rather than one with across-the-board good stats. We've done that before and to do another one would be boring.
I'm liking high HP, attack, very high defense, low specials and adequate speed. let it survive a super effective hit upon entering and then unleash the big guns on a fragile lead-in
I'm liking high HP, attack, very high defense, low specials and adequate speed. let it survive a super effective hit upon entering and then unleash the big guns on a fragile lead-in
I said AROUND. It probably will have to be weaker, I know, but not by much if Excellent wins, which is what I'm hoping.
EDIT: Just by taking 20 Attack off of it alone brings it down to Excellent, while still keeping biases in check. Not that this is what I wanted to do, but if we look at the bright side, this is the exact attack score of Swampert and it does fine as a tank
I already mentioned that when I said my point about Arghonaut
-Every- CAP? I don't think Strategem and Cyclohm had very good Attack, and Kitsonuh had a terrible Sp. Attack stat. Besides, if you look at the actual Nintendo designed Pokemon, you'll find that they generally have Attack and Sp Attack stats which aren't dramatically far off of each other.
The reason people are arguing for Sp. Attack on a physical Pokemon is due to the threat of physically defensive set-uppers like Skarmory, which would greatly hinder the "Stop the Secondary" concept of CAP 9 if it was unable to tackle them. Anyway, having a Physical bias doesn't prevent us from giving the CAP decent Sp. Attack - as long as we don't go overboard.
It does not need decent special attack to take out Forretress. It just needs high enough attack and a boosting item.
This is completely incorrect. Life Orb Max Attack Metagross can fail to 4HKO with a neutral attack (Earthquake), and that is coming off of the strongest attacking stat in OU. Non-STAB Fire Punches sometimes can't even 2HKO. Skarmory, who lacks the 4x weakness and has Roost is even harder to deal with because most pack almost no speed, so EQ doesn't even hit them. That is why I argued for the Mixed Bias last poll. Ultimately I changed my oppinion, but I still think that some level of Special Attack is necessary to take on these secondary users.
EDIT: See your signature.
I would always hesitate before advocating a Pokemon in the 'Excellent' stat range, and this CAP should be no exception. The difference being that this time we are likely going to be giving this CAP a very powerful ability to help it deal with secondary attacks to the optimum level, something in the Poison Heal or Magic Guard range at a guess. This means that the stat spread we decide to use may need to be restricted because of this. Plenty of Pokemon can get on without massive stat investment, if we consider ourselves intelligent enough to distribute stats well when the time comes.
Thus, Very Good.
Thus, Very Good.
Even though we are going physical, we can still have usable special attack. Essentially, we are going to be pushing the limits of Very Good if we choose it since enough people could end up pushing in many directions. If we go with Excellent, and enough people want to restrain it, we can. Just because we go Excellent, doesn't mean we have to go Legendary good, we can still keep it close to a near maxed Very Good Pokemon with a little extra bite/bulk.
I really think we need the stat boost to prevent another cool Pokemon hampered by too many weaknesses exploitable weaknesses (Cyclohm).
Also @ Admiral_Stalfos19
Taking 20 points off of any BST 600 stats and giving worse typing will just give us Entei compared to Garchomp (if that makes sense).
I really think we need the stat boost to prevent another cool Pokemon hampered by too many weaknesses exploitable weaknesses (Cyclohm).
Also @ Admiral_Stalfos19
Taking 20 points off of any BST 600 stats and giving worse typing will just give us Entei compared to Garchomp (if that makes sense).
Max attack Adamant Hariyama's Focus Punch vs 252 HP/176 Def Impish Skarmory: 45.81% - 53.89%
The same Hariyama's Focus Punch vs 252 HP/144 Def Relaxed Forretress: 46.61% - 55.08%
Hariyama's base attack is 120, which is 15 less than Metagross'. While CAP9 cannot achieve such power against Skarmory due to its STABs being walled by it, if CAP9 gets 120 base attack, its CB Earthquakes will have just as much power against Forretress.
EDIT: Also, if we did give CAP9 base 120 attack, a max attack Adamant Fire Fang without boosting items would be a guaranteed 2HKO on the standard Forretress.
Indeed, I have now backed up my claim with evidence.
I will say excellent. I was toying with a few #s and there isn't really much of a dramatic gap from Very Good to Excellent. Plus excellent would allow a possibly usable special attack which could help it (just because its a physical build bias doesn't mean avoid all special attacks, look at Mence or Boah Tyranitar). Excellent will allow the poke to patch up its shortcomings of typing weaknesses and take hits from secondary users.
OK, but with only 75 base satk, 0 satk CAP9 deals 55-65% to 252/0 Skarmory with Fire Blast, and obviously completely blows Forretress away (77-90% on 252/252+ Forry, which is never seen). That's without any sort of boosting item, too, so CAP9 is free to use any other useful item or the ability Klutz, should it get it. For comparison, Flygon and Mamoswine, two Pokemon fairly unquestionably thought of as physical attackers, have 80 and 70 special attack, respectively, making this level of special attack hardly unreasonable.
Somewhat more special attack would be needed to 2HKO Hippowdon with Hydro Pump/Grass Knot, but that's what EVs are for.
EDIT: In response to your edit, Fire Fang 2HKOing Forretress means it 3-4HKOs Skarmory. The only common specially defensive Pokemon weak to Fire is Bronzong, who gets hit nearly as hard by STAB Crunch anyways, and Roserade, who is hit harder by STAB EQ, and can probably outspeed and OHKO with Leaf Storm. I'd much rather have that 2HKO on Skarmory.
Hate to bandwagon, but I think I'm swayed a bit more by the arguments for "Excellent" than those of "Very Good." Besides, there are more counters to this guy than just Skarmory and Forretress. 5 weaknesses means Ape (Close Combat, Grass Knot,) Porygon-2/Z (Ice Beam,) Weavile (Ice Shard, Low Kick/Brick Break, etc.) Arghonaut (once it's done with testing, Brick Break and Waterfall,) Technician Stratagem (Giga Drain,) Roserade (Leaf Storm,) and more (Heracross, U-turners, Scizor,) mean that even with an Excellent build (maybe even a Fantastic one,) this guy's NOT going to be the next Garchomp (despite a landshark popping up in the art submissions) and honestly, do a few extra points matter when this guy, along with Tyranitar, Cyclohm, and Celebi, has a huge/large/omnipresent number of exploitable weaknesses? 2 of those are base 600s, but without auspicious typing, both of these fail. Jirachi and Metagross are GREAT, but they are weak to Fire and Ground, common attack types. Celebi and Tyranitar have 6-7 weaknesses each. Cyclohm falls in Jirachi's camp, as do Salamence and Dragonite. Each has GREAT stats, but each has common weaknesses. CAP9 falls into the Celeboat: He has weaknesses to common attack types (Surf and Waterfall for coverage and STAB on various sets, Grass Knot to hit the bulky waters firing off their STAB water moves, Close Combat, Low Kick, and Brick Break for coverage and STAB, Ice Beam and Ice Punch to hit Mence, and U-turn to provide an alternative, damaging method of switchout.) I'm putting my vote in for Excellent, preferably high Excellent. Tyranitar is Fantastic and we have ways of dealing with him. Why shouldn't CAP9 be in the same high-level ballfield if we've handicapped it from square one?
BTW, downloadable base stat rating calc plz?
-Torterra-Infernape-Feraligatr-
BTW, downloadable base stat rating calc plz?
-Torterra-Infernape-Feraligatr-
@ Forretress argument: One of the things that came out of the build bias thread was that killing secondary users was not the only way to deal with them, so this argument, if I'm not mistaken, is now more or less distracting from the progress of this CaP. If we had wanted a mixed sweeper designed take out all of the 25-odd predictable secondary users in OU (including its overwhelming four physical walls), we would have made many other different decisions already. Arguing about whether or not CaP can defeat Forretress through sheer offensive might isn't really the kind of "bigger picture" thinking a BSR discussion thread is looking for, imo.
After reading select posts, I have decided to switch my support to Excellent. Mainly because, as Plus said, most of the Very Good sets I've been concocting have all bordered the Very Good/ Excellent line. They also leave me with wanting just a little more. So I figure with our CAP's common weaknesses, it's going to need all the extra bulk it can get. Not only that, it gives us more room for a few more points in Atk, which is icing on the cake.
The fact that a 150 Base Power STAB move coming off a 120 Base Attack stat can 2HKO some of the most defensive pokemon does not impress me. This depends on the fact that they don't use Brave Bird or even Rapid Spin, because otherwise you wasted a turn.
Also, you mentioned that a CB Earthquake could 2HKO Forretress. If this CAP is being used as a Choice Bander, than it is most likely not being used to Stop the Secondary, and therefore it is a rather irrelevant point.
Excellent, CAP9 will need as much as it can get to take on all the secondary threats, and as we know Excellent does not make a Pokemon invincible. Spreads are easy to find on the calc that aren't invincible but still are Excellent, so that's the way to go.
I definitely think that excellent is the way to go. I've been toying around with a couple stat spreads, and I think the only way to get a decent sp atk is to go with excellent. And I think it could use a useable sp atk (75+) will really help stopping pokes from setting up for reasons already stated.
I would like to go with Very Good (yeah you heard me).
I do NOT want a pokemon that's a jack of all trades. I don't want some pokemon with atleast 90 in all of it's stats. I want a limit. I want a Pokemon that does it's job (and possibly a little more). The restraints given by Very Good is what is needed for this CaP. This lets the community pick what is best for this CaP. This lets the communtiy really get creative-and look more into the spreads. The spread is the most important part of the whole project. The spread decides how this CaP is going to act. Now in the past, outside from a group of individuals, not many people even payed attention. This is why I want people to pay attention. And the limits of Very Good help us do that.
I do NOT want a pokemon that's a jack of all trades. I don't want some pokemon with atleast 90 in all of it's stats. I want a limit. I want a Pokemon that does it's job (and possibly a little more). The restraints given by Very Good is what is needed for this CaP. This lets the community pick what is best for this CaP. This lets the communtiy really get creative-and look more into the spreads. The spread is the most important part of the whole project. The spread decides how this CaP is going to act. Now in the past, outside from a group of individuals, not many people even payed attention. This is why I want people to pay attention. And the limits of Very Good help us do that.
You can easily make an Excellent stat spread without 90 in a few stats. Being Excellent won't make this a jack of all trades, unless we decide to do so. What it will let us do is, should we desire, take a Very Good stat spread and augment certain areas to help cover CAP9s big weaknesses, a reason I was against Ground to begin with. If we don't have defensively strong typing (CAP9 is mediocre), we will need good defensive stats or we risk compromising the competitive value of the Pokemon. If the community doesn't want super stats, they can still tone down the overall spread of an Excellent Pokemon to be that of a Very Good (420 = Excellent, 419 = Very Good).
If we're going to have a 400+ Pokemon who is Very Good, we might as well open up the possibilities by going Excellent. Bad defensive typing and decent bulk might not even be enough. For example, Cyclohm is a 418 Pokemon, moderate bias to defense but the Ground + Ice weaknesses greatly compromise this defensive spread. I don't want defensive typing to compromise a Pokemon again, even if CAP9 is far from a tank. If we "overboard" to compensate, then so be it. I think most here would rather have an overpowered CAP than a cool but impractical CAP.
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