np: UU - The Boys Are Back in Town

[d2m]

AGAIN, NOT the argument. You said spritomb AS A LEAD prevents spikes, and it doesn't. If the person runs ala and spiritomb on the same team then they can kill my froslass with no spikes up, but the SR I get for free from your pursuit/ shadow sneak can easily kill ala on a switch and you are using 2 pokemon to beat one... kind of proves that it requires one to over prepare.

That was the first sentence. Here's lead tomb:

Turn 1:

Spiritomb used Shadow Sneak!
Froslass lost 100% of her health!
Froslass held on using the Focus Sash!
Froslass used Spikes!

Turn 2:

Spiritomb used Shadow Sneak!
Froslass dies.

1 layer. If it's not CB, it can SS then Pursuit to prevent you from coming back later, but if you predict that and use Spikes again, you could possibly get a second layer.

We are talking about the lead game here. There are always leads that will beat other leads, it's inevitable. A faster Taunt by Ambipom or Alakazam RUINS Froslass because it prevents her from doing her job, which is to place spikes.

YOUR set is designed to beat several specific Froslass "counters" but loses the "guaranteed kill" of Destiny Bond and preventing counter-setup by other leads with Taunt. It loses versatility vs other leads (like Grass leads that either subseed, sleep powder, or set up Toxic Spikes. Venusaur comes to mind, plus lead Omastar is getting SR up and just as many spikes as you are) in exchange for beating a couple of counters. That's how the game works.

For instance, if I was running a lead Ambipom, Fake Out and Return are non-negotiable, thus leaving me with 2 slots: Low Kick beats Registeel and Rock that would otherwise wall me, Taunt prevents setup from other leads like Dual Screen Uxie or Froslass, Pursuit allows me to destroy ghosts even when they switch, and Payback hits ghosts harder on the switch and nets you nifty OHKOs on every ghost type bar Spiritomb and Dusclops (on the switch).

I have to choose 2 of those options, and I'm SOL on all the benefit I'd get from what I don't choose. Froslass is the same way. You forsake preventing setup with Taunt for a kill on Alakazam with Ice Shard. You forsake the accuracy of Ice Beam for the shaky power of Blizzard. You forsake the extra kill with Destiny Bond for coverage on Alakazam and other Froslass with Shadow ball.

You give up a lot to beat your counters, and that's what it's designed to do, but it does NOT do it's job as well as the standard lead set.

To add a conclusion:
Froslass is good. It's replacing Roserade as the standard lead on balance/offensive teams. It's no more broken than Roserade was, there are ways to stop it and ways around any of it's sets, it's not broken in the slightest.

 

[itsbigfoot]

@ burt, it depends on your team (the only poke it might come back on for my team is qwilfish, in which case I'm setting up spikes too), also, as a lead, it still does its job of stopping other leads

 

[BurtonEarny]

YOUR set is designed to beat several specific Froslass "counters" but loses the "guaranteed kill" of Destiny Bond and preventing counter-setup by other leads with Taunt. It loses versatility vs other leads (like Grass leads that either subseed, sleep powder, or set up Toxic Spikes. Venusaur comes to mind, plus lead Omastar is getting SR up and just as many spikes as you are) in exchange for beating a couple of counters. That's how the game works.

First, lol
Really, venusaur comes to your mind as acheiving anything against a pokemon that is faster and carries STAB Blizzard. Why would I EVER taunt a venusaur when its in on a froslass?

You really don't care that you are not defending your original claim at all and are simply dancing around what your original statements were (that are false), and I mention giving up DB and Taunt in my initial post.

Also, the opponent cant assume I dont have DB simply because I dont use taunt first turn. The only way I give away the set is if I use ice shard or blizzard and just like people did to crobat they attack w/o even being taunted because they expect it. Its not theorymon its happened over and over and it works like a charm. The set still gets spikes and is beating the things that are meant to counter it which is exactly what I made it for, to get surprise ko's while still having a froslass to lay spikes later.

Simply being taunted does not mean froslass is useless. She gets to kill the counter and then come back in later and set some spikes. Or she can set them after her counter was ko'd because they didn't think they needed to taunt. Again, this happen often.

In the instance of spiritomb using shadow sneak-
Spikes go on the field. switch out preventing a ko if it is choiced. come back later and set another layer since you arent setting rocks up. If its not banded and pursuit gets you... oh well, you still got a layer. Spikes is spikes is spikes. job accomplished.

-----------
In case you forgot your original argument was this
1) Alakazam BY HIMSELF will beat a froslass which is in no way a guarantee

you then said lead spiritomb did it, which it doesn't

you then said both do, with a crippled alakazam to show for it

now you say the lead is ineffective because it doesn't have taunt... The three leads its beats are incredibly common, possibly the three most common leads right now. You dont even need to taunt when your known for carrying the move. I keep using crobat as an example because you had to assume it was going to taunt even if it didn't, its the same way.

I'm not claiming my set is better than the original at all, but due to the fact that its not the standard and beats the standards counters it is a very effective lead set and it often finds itself ko'ing the leads that are supposed to beat it while still setting up layers of spikes after they are dead and gone (If they taunt she is at full health perfectly safe to come in later and set spikes).

 

[Thund91]

You're relying on Blizzard to beat Ambipom?

 

[FlareBlitz]

After some testing, I've found the following is true:

- Froslass is annoying. If you don't run Ambipom or a suicide Electrode, you lose.

- Alakazam is underwhelming. Priority is important in UU, as are scarfers (especially the common ghost scarfers) and Kazam is too frail. It can set up a sub, yeah, but then it either loses CM (meaning it gets walled and killed by a lot) or an important coverage move (no focus blast = lol registeel/chaney, no signal beam = spiritomb bait)

- Raikou is really good. If you run max s.atk on it with Timid it always 2hkos Donphan, its most common check, and flat out ohkos Duggy. Any team without a Chansey, Registeel, or Psych Up Regice (lol) loses. But that brings me to my next point...

- Rhyperior has lots of potential. The set I'm running goes a little like this:

Rhyperior @ Leftovers
Adamant, 248 HP/252 ATK/8 DEF
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge
-Megahorn
-Substitute

Once Rhyperior gets behind a sub, things are going to get hurt. The combination of EQ/Stone Edge/Megahorn hits all common physical walls for at least neutral damage, and quite a bit of them for SE damage. It makes a great partner for Raikou, as Raikou lures in the two pokemon Rhyperior loves to set up on (Registeel and Chansey). Once Rhyperior is behind its 101+ sub, it can dismantle stall teams very quickly, and pose a massive threat to any other kind of team that doesn't have a strong special attacker.
Ultimately, it is definitely not a slightly better Rhydon. It's in its own class.

-Gallade is not really a problem for me, but I run three priority users and 2 more pokemon who outspeed it, so...
My own Gallade wrecks stuff. People so are used to switching a Milotic into physical attackers that it honestly takes them by surprise when Gallade handily ohkos. Spiritomb is a major pain in the ass for it though. In fact, Spiritomb is a major pain in the ass for Kazam too.

 

[BurtonEarny]

You're relying on Blizzard to beat Ambipom?

yeah, Im pretty sure you cant get a ko on it without it using that spread. I haven't run into many ambipoms since I started using the set though I've never failed to ko the ones I have run into.

Also, I just made that spread tonight. Tommorrow I'll take the speed down and add some attack/ special attack to see if you cant ko it with ice beam + ice shard and maintain a reasonable speed.

and iirc you were using focus blast on NP toxicroak.

 

[itsbigfoot]

Alright, the floatzel lead I've been testing does seem to beat froslass, here's how most of the battles have happened:

A:
Turn 1
Floatzel taunts, Froslass can't spike

Turn 2
Floatzel Crunches, Froslass either switches or does some damage (never a ko)

Turn 3
Floatzel Aqua Jets
Froslass either dies or switches

or

B:
Turn 1
Floatzel Crunches, Froslass either spikes or attacks

Turn 2
Floatzel Taunts if Froslass Spiked, or Aqua Jets if it attacked, this prevents Destiny Bond from taking both unless Froslass attacked, cause even if they both die it prevents the spikes, basically it prevents 1 layer + dead Floatzel

if Froslass runs Shadow Ball, you have to predict right, as it'll 2HKO you (so you lose if it predicts the taunt). I usually just crunch off the bat, because worst case I get 1 layer of spikes and a very healthy Floatzel

 

[august]

Actually d2m most Spiritomb run Trick / Sucker Punch / Pursuit / Return when using Choice Band :@

Also I can finally use my old UU stall team (not sure wow great its gonna work but )

If Gallade is anything like it was before (hell I'd imagine it'd be worse without Staraptor to revenge kill the SD set) then I'm thinking it'll go to BL again pretty easily.

EDIT: 9.2% of Spirirtomb were banded in September and Shadow Sneak isn't even listed on common moves for Spiritomb. That means there is a very small chance that Spirirtomb will have Choice Banded with Shadow Sneak.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Wow, the metagame is so erratic right now! Everybody is trying out all kinds of random teams (me included lol), and it will take a while to settle down.

Anyway, given the new metagame with Froslass and co, I have decided to bring my old anti-lead Cloyster back out of retirement with its cool new move in the form of Rock Blast:

Cloyster @ Focus Sash
Skill Link
Rash
160 Atk / 252 SpA / 96 Spe

~ Surf
~ Ice Shard
~ Rock Blast
~ Rapid Spin

The result so far? Amazing! In fact, it is currently performing even better than before, although that may be because the metagame is still very erratic and nobody knows quite what to expect atm. Still, it almost always gets at least one kill, can often spin away early hazards, and can still sometimes be available for revenge-kills later in the game. Still not sure if Rock Blast is a better option than Payback just yet, but it is working for me so far so I can't complain.

Also, what have people generally been using on non heavy offense teams to deal with Gallade? I guess stally teams are relying a lot on Spiritomb, but it doesn't have as much application on more aggressive teams. My current team actually has quite a few checks, but my best one is a slightly tweaked build on bulky Arcanine, something I like to call an aggressive counter or check:

Arcanine @ Leftovers
Intimidate
Naughty
72 HP / 100 Atk / 176 Def / 160 Spe

~ Flare Blitz
~ Extremespeed
~ Hidden Power [Grass]
~ Morning Sun

It has been working quite well, and doesn't perform much differently to the more standard setup, but it obviously fares better if you can keep SR and other hazards off the field.

So what creative solutions have other people come up with so far for dealing with the influx of new threats? Please share.

EDIT: oh also, Rock Blast is still glitched in that it breaks through sashes. I am going to keep abusing it until someone gets round to fixing it, but tbh it isn't that significant in battle for the most part.

 

[Mattman324]

EDIT: oh also, Rock Blast is still glitched in that it breaks through sashes. I am going to keep abusing it until someone gets round to fixing it, but tbh it isn't that significant in battle for the most part.

EDIT: Nevermind, I thought you said "subs".

Anyway, I was thinking of leads that can beat Frosslass (beside Ambipom or Alakazam), and here's what I came up with.

TR pory2 (if it doesn't Taunt, it can get up 1 or 2 layers of spikes, then it dies. If it does, then there will be problems, but hey: Froslass is a ghost, and if it dies, they might lose their spin-blocker.

Floatzel.
Most anti-leads with priority, like Feraligatr, and others.

Personally, I'll stick with Pinser. I don't care about Spikes, my 2 pokemon who want to always be at top health are walls with recovery.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

TR pory2 (if it doesn't Taunt, it can get up 1 or 2 layers of spikes, then it dies. If it does, then there will be problems, but hey: Froslass is a ghost, and if it dies, they might lose their spin-blocker

If you ask me I'd rather avoid any mindgames in the lead situation. Besides, what does Porygon2 have to hit Froslass? Dark Pulse? Otherwise I don't see what you're doing to make her think twice when going about her job.

And I don't think anyone uses Froslass as a spin-blocker. She is usually either supporting a very offensive team or is backed up by a second Ghost.

 

[A.P.]

I may have found the best stallbreaking Pokémon in all of UU. Unfortunately, I haven't gotten the chance to test it on Shoddy, but just from theorymoning, I can see potential in this thing.

Gallade @ Lum Berry
252 Atk/252 Spd/6 HP
Adamant/Jolly, Steadfast
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade
- FILLER

The set allows Gallade to easily get up to +4, provided it comes in on the right Pokémon. As they bring in something like Spiritomb to cripple you, Swords Dance again, and you're off to a sweep. Close Combat is your obligatory crazy-powered STAB, and Leaf Blade covers bulky Pokémon like Slowbro and Spiritomb, OHKO'ing the former after a Swords Dance and 2HKO'ing the latter. I'm not sure on what to put in the last slot. Psycho Cut? Shadow Sneak, to take on offensive teams? Stone Edge or X-Scissor, to get a needed hit on Venusaur?

I'm definitely going to build a team around this when I get home.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I may have found the best stallbreaking Pokémon in all of UU. Unfortunately, I haven't gotten the chance to test it on Shoddy, but just from theorymoning, I can see potential in this thing.

Gallade @ Lum Berry
252 Atk/252 Spd/6 HP
Adamant/Jolly, Steadfast
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade
- FILLER

The set allows Gallade to easily get up to +4, provided it comes in on the right Pokémon. As they bring in something like Spiritomb to cripple you, Swords Dance again, and you're off to a sweep. Close Combat is your obligatory crazy-powered STAB, and Leaf Blade covers bulky Pokémon like Slowbro and Spiritomb, OHKO'ing the former after a Swords Dance and 2HKO'ing the latter. I'm not sure on what to put in the last slot. Psycho Cut? Shadow Sneak, to take on offensive teams? Stone Edge or X-Scissor, to get a needed hit on Venusaur?

I'm definitely going to build a team around this when I get home.

You miss out on so many OHKOs without that Life Orb, and even more so if you opt for Jolly over Adamant. The set relies on something wanting to status you to work well, and that won't always work. However, if it works for you, then that's fine. Psycho Cut would be best for Venusaur, as well as Weezing, and a strong neutral hit on Altaria with a good chance to crit.

Anyway, I'm posting again to return to the issue of Low Kick on Ambipom. I have just played a match where my 252 / 0 neutral Steelix took 66% from a Life Orb Ambipom, when it shouldn't be able to do more than half health. Here is the log segment documenting it:

---
brutallisque: I fucked this team up so bad xD
brutallisque: no fire resist lmao
brutallisque switched in Ambipom (lvl 100 Ambipom ?).
ggGerbil switched in Steelix (lvl 100 Steelix ?).
Ambipom used Fake Out.
It's not very effective...
Steelix lost 9% of its health.
Ambipom lost 10% of its health.
---
Ferdie has entered the room.
Ambipom used Low Kick.
It's super effective!
Steelix lost 66% of its health.
Ambipom lost 10% of its health.
Steelix used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
---
ggGerbil: hold on
brutallisque: k
ggGerbil: do you mind if i show this log on the forums?
ggGerbil: it shows that low kick is glitched
-Black Ace- has entered the room.
brutallisque: lol
brutallisque: that's ok
brutallisque: I thougth it was
ggGerbil: it is doing 1.5x more
brutallisque: thought*
ggGerbil: thanks!
Ambipom used Low Kick.
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
Steelix lost 25% of its health.
ggGerbil's Steelix fainted.
Ambipom lost 10% of its health.
---
brutallisque: np ;)

The glitch is very much real, and it seems to be activated by the preceding Fake Out if anything at all. It is important that this glitch gets fixed ASAP because Low Kick Ambipom is a huge deal in the metagame now.

 

[d2m]

First, lol
Really, venusaur comes to your mind as acheiving anything against a pokemon that is faster and carries STAB Blizzard. Why would I EVER taunt a venusaur when its in on a froslass?

You really don't care that you are not defending your original claim at all and are simply dancing around what your original statements were (that are false), and I mention giving up DB and Taunt in my initial post.

Also, the opponent cant assume I dont have DB simply because I dont use taunt first turn. The only way I give away the set is if I use ice shard or blizzard and just like people did to crobat they attack w/o even being taunted because they expect it. Its not theorymon its happened over and over and it works like a charm. The set still gets spikes and is beating the things that are meant to counter it which is exactly what I made it for, to get surprise ko's while still having a froslass to lay spikes later.

Simply being taunted does not mean froslass is useless. She gets to kill the counter and then come back in later and set some spikes. Or she can set them after her counter was ko'd because they didn't think they needed to taunt. Again, this happen often.

In the instance of spiritomb using shadow sneak-
Spikes go on the field. switch out preventing a ko if it is choiced. come back later and set another layer since you arent setting rocks up. If its not banded and pursuit gets you... oh well, you still got a layer. Spikes is spikes is spikes. job accomplished.

-----------
In case you forgot your original argument was this
1) Alakazam BY HIMSELF will beat a froslass which is in no way a guarantee

you then said lead spiritomb did it, which it doesn't

you then said both do, with a crippled alakazam to show for it

now you say the lead is ineffective because it doesn't have taunt... The three leads its beats are incredibly common, possibly the three most common leads right now. You dont even need to taunt when your known for carrying the move. I keep using crobat as an example because you had to assume it was going to taunt even if it didn't, its the same way.

I'm not claiming my set is better than the original at all, but due to the fact that its not the standard and beats the standards counters it is a very effective lead set and it often finds itself ko'ing the leads that are supposed to beat it while still setting up layers of spikes after they are dead and gone (If they taunt she is at full health perfectly safe to come in later and set spikes).

Blizzard has shit accuracy and doesn't even guarantee an OHKO (85.71% - 101.10%). Not that he's common as a lead anyway, I was just pulling random examples. You ignored Omastar.

My points were that they beat the SUICIDE LEAD Froslass set, the set that she was originally made BL for. As I have REPEATEDLY stated you are running ANTI-LEAD Froslass instead of SUICIDE LEAD Froslass. Do you not get it? Of course my examples don't beat ANTI-LEAD Froslass, it's not designed to. ANTI-LEAD Froslass loses out to some leads that SUICIDE LEAD Froslass beats. Omastar being an example.

Not only that, but if she gets taunted early, she often comes back in to take 25% from SR and get KO'd pretty easily (unless someone is in a choiced normal/fighting attack or burned/slept) due to not having the Focus Sash.

If you're saying that because Froslass gets 1 set of Spikes up against Spiritomb she's BL, I will re-direct you to Focus Sash Roserade, Omastar, etc that all get up 1 set of Spikes on the first turn.

The reason I say Taunt is important is because it is the most reliable way of beating many leads. Leads can be effective without it, but they will be much less effective against certain leads. To use Omastar as an example (again) if you're not carrying Taunt or a Grass/Electric attack, he's getting SR up.

OH MY GOD! A lead that ALWAYS gets SR up unless he's taunted by something faster!??!? BL! BL!

^That is precisely what most of you on that side of the argument sound like.

Conclusion:
You haven't read a damn thing I said. My entire last post was the definition of the anti-lead, outlining the differences between the 2 sets, and explaining how the leads fare against both sets and you ignored the whole damn thing and throw out the claim that I'm ignoring you as a smokescreen. If you want to actually defend your point, I welcome you to do it.

Addendum: Any lead that isn't OHKO'd by Froslass and has a non normal/fighting priority attack will let her only get up 1 spikes and I'll make a list off the top of my head:

Piloswine- EQ/Ice Shard (I used him on my hail team as a lead)
Feraligatr- Waterfall/Aqua Jet (I've seen lots of gatr leads lately)
Floatzel- Crunch (or waterfall)/Aqua Jet (as stated above)
Spiritomb- Pursuit (or Faint Attack or Shadow Sneak)/ Shadow Sneak
Azumarril- Waterfall/Aqua Jet
Kabutops- Waterfall (or Stone Edge)/Aqua Jet

After looking up:
Kecleon...I've been befuddled by this lead before...it isn't 2HKO'd by Blizz/Ice Shard with a decent set and it can have shadow sneak...very uncommon and very specific, so it's not too much of an issue, but an option nonetheless.

Addendum Addendum: Forgot scarfed leads:

Moltres 2HKOs with Flamethrower
Mespirit 2HKOs with Zen Headbutt (and has a chance to Flinch you thus preventing spikes altogether...shadow ball + Ice Shard fails the 2HKO)
Kangaskhan 2HKOs with Return (Albeit an uncommon lead, I have seen scarf Kanga before)
etc

 

[M BLADE]

I just use Armaldo as a lead. He's too damn good as a lead. Rock Blast picks Froslass off, and since she is probably your only ghost in your team, i just Rapid Spin whatever comes next. Most Froslass will try Taunting in fear of Stealth Rock, so i get a free OHKO from Rock Blast (if it hits at least 3 times... i know it's a Shoddy bug Rock Blast taking off Focus Sash, but whatever)
Alakazam? Ming game here. They are sashed and can counter me, but i can use Rapid Spin to take their Sash off and finish it with X-Scissor. On my bulky spread, Psychic is only a 3hko on Armaldo.

Cloyster is similar to Armaldo, but Armaldo can Stealth Rock and Cloyster won't beat most Alakazams/Uxies, though Cloyster can work later in the game, while Armaldo often doesn't.

Most Raikou are running HP Grass, meaning Steelix usage will rise up again. Not to say Venusaur usage as a Raikou counter without Roserade now. Venusaur usage will go through the roof.

Gallades are annoying, but Spiritomb walls it to no end. Mesprit/Uxie can paralize it and
Psychic the hell out of it. Slowbro works the same way but with a recovery move.

One thing: please don't let Heracross fall to UU. He counters every new UU addition/retest. Counters Gallade(often without Psycho Cut), Umbreon, Alakazam and Raikou if Scarfed/Salac Berry, and does a high damage to Rhyperior. Blaziken will be outspeeded, Uxie will be OHKOed, Spiritomb will be set up fodder and can activate Guts, Slowbro won't like taking STAB Megahorns, Registeel lol,Milotic is a chance for Hera to SD/activate Guts... no, just no.

 

[BurtonEarny]

If you want to actually defend your point, I welcome you to do it.

Addendum: Any lead that isn't OHKO'd by Froslass and has a non normal/fighting priority attack will let her only get up 1 spikes and I'll make a list off the top of my head:

Piloswine- EQ/Ice Shard (I used him on my hail team as a lead)
Feraligatr- Waterfall/Aqua Jet (I've seen lots of gatr leads lately)
Floatzel- Crunch (or waterfall)/Aqua Jet (as stated above)
Spiritomb- Pursuit (or Faint Attack or Shadow Sneak)/ Shadow Sneak
Azumarril- Waterfall/Aqua Jet
Kabutops- Waterfall (or Stone Edge)/Aqua Jet

Wow, I just defended my point over and over and over, but apparently your too intent on turning the discussion into something that its not to even look at what I said in my op.

MY WHOLE POINT WAS TO PROVE THAT ALAKAZAM DID NOT BEAT FROSLASS LIKE YOU CLAIMED THAT IT DID. I was NEVER talking about suicide lead froslass and yet you quoted me and claimed that I was wrong (which all froslass are suicide leads anyway). I said froslass was a good lead, you said it was outclassed by ala and ala beat it. I showed you you were wrong because I was never running the DB froslass in the first place. That was the initial discussion, no better than the original froslass crap, no broken status, or any of the other stuff you keep pouring into the discussion that isn't even relevant.
1) You said Alakazam beats Froslass and directed the statement at me
2) I showed you an effective set in which it does not proving you wrong
3) you then go on a tirade about spiritomb and venusaur and omastar which have nothing to do with alakazam at all.
-That is what we call an invalid arguement-

You keep trying to prove me wrong about things I never even said. I never said it was BL, I never said it wasn't able to be beaten, and I never said my set was in any way "better" beyond the fact that the pokemon people rely on to beat froslass most will often lose to this one. It works better than it would because the fact that a more popular froslass build exists making people believe I have taunt. I proved to you a froslass can still function as a suicide lead spiker and beat alakazam and you turned the discussion into ways to prevent froslass from setting spikes which wasn't the main point of my first post.

I've read every word you said and none of it has backed your initial claim and its been you throwing out random stuff that doesn't even pertain to your point that caused this stupid argument that didn't deserve this much debate to begin with. You turned being wrong about alakazam into a why froslass isn't broken attack on me which I never claimed.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

My points were that they beat the SUICIDE LEAD Froslass set, the set that she was originally made BL for.

That's not exactly true. I was one of the 10 voters out of 19 that voted BL, but her talents as a suicide lead only formed a small part of my reasoning. Remember, it was decided by one vote, so if I believed that suicide leading was all that Froslass was good for, I'd have voted UU and it would've been UU for at least another two months, if not all along! How about that as food for thought?

Kangaskhan 2HKOs with Return (Albeit an uncommon lead, I have seen scarf Kanga before)
etc

Couldn't you just use Fake Out + Hammer Arm with Kanga? It would make more sense as a lead than a random Scarf set.

Anyway, some other things I've noticed in the metagame so far:

- Ambipom has excellent utility both as a multiple checker and lategame cleaner, despite the increased Spiritomb usage.
- SD passing Leafeon needs more love, particularly while holding a Yache Berry.
- Arcanine is a great bulky physical sweeper, able to check many physical threats while always hitting hard.
- Steelix is now contending on a more even keel with Registeel as the Steel of choice for many teams.
- Despite Froslass being available, I still find myself attracted to Qwilfish as a Spiker for its resistances, Water priority and Explosion. It really does depend on the team sometimes.

 

[Thund91]

Most Raikou are running HP Grass, meaning Steelix usage will rise up again. Not to say Venusaur usage as a Raikou counter without Roserade now. Venusaur usage will go through the roof.

Steelix and Donphan are bound to rise because of Raikou (especially the former), which is why i'm trying to convince people to use Hidden Power WATER as there HP choice. It's the only way he can hit both super effective. I'd rather be able to hit them both supper effective then worry about Quagsire who is really rare. The only Grass type who is a nuisance is SD Venusaur, because Sceptile/Leafeon/Tangrowth won't enjoy boosted Thunderbolts.

 

[MapleSandwich]

I may have found the best stallbreaking Pokémon in all of UU. Unfortunately, I haven't gotten the chance to test it on Shoddy, but just from theorymoning, I can see potential in this thing.

Gallade @ Lum Berry
252 Atk/252 Spd/6 HP
Adamant/Jolly, Steadfast
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade
- FILLER

The set allows Gallade to easily get up to +4, provided it comes in on the right Pokémon. As they bring in something like Spiritomb to cripple you, Swords Dance again, and you're off to a sweep. Close Combat is your obligatory crazy-powered STAB, and Leaf Blade covers bulky Pokémon like Slowbro and Spiritomb, OHKO'ing the former after a Swords Dance and 2HKO'ing the latter. I'm not sure on what to put in the last slot. Psycho Cut? Shadow Sneak, to take on offensive teams? Stone Edge or X-Scissor, to get a needed hit on Venusaur?

I'm definitely going to build a team around this when I get home.

This set seriously does work. After two Swords Dances, Gallade literally OHKOs everything in UU that is not faster than it with Close Combat, excepting the obvious Ghost types. And his SpDef is good enough that it can easily get up two Swords Dances, even if the Status Infliction in question isn't present. I honestly prefer Shadow Sneak and Psycho Cut together, even if Spiritomb's going to be a problem that way. Why? Because I run Flash Fire Nasty Plot Houndoom alongside it. +3 Houndoom is going to annihilate any Spiritomb stupid enough to stand in the way of a Fire Blast.

In other news, SubEncore Alakazam is ridiculously fun. I'm trying it with both Psychic/Focus Blast and Recover/Toxic. Although the second set is pretty meh, it beats Spiritomb fairly well with the right defensive EVs. It also laughs at SubCM Raikou.

 

[franky]

New UU is easy, I breezed through a rate of 1478 in like 45 minutes of consecutive battling. Of course that's not an impressive rating, but at the time rate I could climb the leader board again in 2 days. I'm simply running a

• Offensive Suntank with Pursuit / Sucker Punch / Explosion / Rock Smash to check Alakazam and Mismagius. Explosion is a good wall breaking move. Aftermath just puts the icing on the cake to wreck shit when their health is low.
• Modest Alakazam (I use SubEncore with Life Orb and Modest nature)

That's pretty much the key Pokemon I've been using to win alot of games. For early speculation, Gallade is absolutely dangerous behind a Substitute and Rhyperior might seem underwhelming people are leaning towards SD set, instead of Rock Polish when the metagame is slowly becoming more offensive oriented. Rock Polish set is easily the best set for Rhyperior right now.

For Froslass, I still think its BL material. It is easily the best lead right now because of Destiny Bond + Spikes + Taunt. You play mindgames with your opponent with Taunt and Destiny Bond. Your bound to have at least a layer and one Pokemon down with Destiny Bond.

I have yet to try Raikou though..

 

[d2m]

If its not banded and pursuit gets you... oh well, you still got a layer. Spikes is spikes is spikes. job accomplished.

This is the sentence that set off the Froslass BL thing, because it's the same retarded argument that people keep using. As if 1 set of spikes auto-BLs anything. It was a bit presumptuous of me but not far off.

Wow, I just defended my point over and over and over, but apparently your too intent on turning the discussion into something that its not to even look at what I said in my op.

MY WHOLE POINT WAS TO PROVE THAT ALAKAZAM DID NOT BEAT FROSLASS LIKE YOU CLAIMED THAT IT DID. I was NEVER talking about suicide lead froslass and yet you quoted me and claimed that I was wrong (which all froslass are suicide leads anyway). I said froslass was a good lead, you said it was outclassed by ala and ala beat it. I showed you you were wrong because I was never running the DB froslass in the first place. That was the initial discussion, no better than the original froslass crap, no broken status, or any of the other stuff you keep pouring into the discussion that isn't even relevant.
1) You said Alakazam beats Froslass and directed the statement at me
2) I showed you an effective set in which it does not proving you wrong
3) you then go on a tirade about spiritomb and venusaur and omastar which have nothing to do with alakazam at all.
-That is what we call an invalid arguement-

You keep trying to prove me wrong about things I never even said. I never said it was BL, I never said it wasn't able to be beaten, and I never said my set was in any way "better" beyond the fact that the pokemon people rely on to beat froslass most will often lose to this one. It works better than it would because the fact that a more popular froslass build exists making people believe I have taunt. I proved to you a froslass can still function as a suicide lead spiker and beat alakazam and you turned the discussion into ways to prevent froslass from setting spikes which wasn't the main point of my first post.

I've read every word you said and none of it has backed your initial claim and its been you throwing out random stuff that doesn't even pertain to your point that caused this stupid argument that didn't deserve this much debate to begin with. You turned being wrong about alakazam into a why froslass isn't broken attack on me which I never claimed.

And my point is (let's use a Family Guyism) You made a special set that can beat Alakazam, big whoop, wanna fight about it? (evidently you do). Alakazam does an effective job as a lead, evidently so effective you have to create specific sets just do deal with him, which means you have to sacrifice utility in other areas, which means his job is done.

 

[A.P.]

For now, my old UU team (before even Alakazam and Rhyperior) seems to be handling all the newcomers and old-timers pretty well, except for minor problems with Raikou.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

New UU is easy, I breezed through a rate of 1478 in like 45 minutes of consecutive battling. Of course that's not an impressive rating, but at the time rate I could climb the leader board again in 2 days.

Yeah, it seems at the moment that many people are using far too predictable teams, just throwing 3-4 of the new additions together and expecting it to work. I'm not using any of the new Pokemon atm and I am just breezing through the vast majority of players. Once people settle after the hype and start considering the full range of options, the ladder will be much more challenging and interesting.

But I still think Cloyster is the best lead right now, and the longer people decide to overlook or ignore its potential, the better for me.

 

[Stagnant]

How do you have your Cloyster Ev'd. Fake Out + Low Kick from ambipom spells death to mine... otherwise he would make for a tremendous lead.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

Oh yeah! I never had the opportunity to test out the threesome of Raikou, Gallade and Froslass, and now they're back again! Expect me to use them a lot.

Looks like the era of stall is finally going through it's final stages into oblivion.