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Suspect Test Process Stage Three - Version 2.0!
- Thread starter Aeolus
- Start date
Lower half of list was revenge kills or they can switch in on Swords Dance. Most of your examples are using less popular moves like Fire Fang, Fire Blast and Stone Edge and even more of them are Yache Chomp. Could just ban Yache Berry and have that 1 less problem.
How about someone name Lucario counters and see how you do? Lucario is just as versatile and unpredictable to switch in on. Sheesh, babies.
What Yache Chomp every caries Stone Edge? Also, are you ruling out prediction completely here? Nobody in their right mind would send in Latias on Outrage/Dragon Claw. Saying that Latias fails as a counter/check to Garchomp because of this is just dumb. In fact, there are many Pokemon that act as great checks/revenge killers to Garchomp that you are dismissing due to their weakness to a single one of Garchomp's moves.
Personally, I think that Garchomp is and always was over hyped. When you look at Garchomp's "Uber" qualities in some detail you will find that many of them are not as good as people once thought. Garchomp is not the same Pokemon as it was back in DP. There are more powerful threats present now. More Pokemon that have a potent ability to sweep and more Pokemon with the ability to revenge kill Garchomp. Garchomp never deserved to be Uber and it is high time that it is brought back into OU.
Personally, I think that Garchomp is and always was over hyped. When you look at Garchomp's "Uber" qualities in some detail you will find that many of them are not as good as people once thought. Garchomp is not the same Pokemon as it was back in DP. There are more powerful threats present now. More Pokemon that have a potent ability to sweep and more Pokemon with the ability to revenge kill Garchomp. Garchomp never deserved to be Uber and it is high time that it is brought back into OU.
its not on yache chomp though its ANY garchomp and garchomp has stone edge in its movepool, and it was put in ubers because nothing can switch into and kill garchomp, it has nothing to do about prediction thats not what its on about, its about whether a pokemon can switch into garchomp and kill it before it kills you, so its not just yache chomp, its scarf, CB, stone edge whatever.
every garchomp i have faced on suspect has had fire fang how can it not be popular? seems to be a lot of nitpicking as to why garchomp should be OU, truth is, i'm going off off what sent it to ubers in the first place, which was exactly that, NO COUNTERS.
yes there are pokes that can come in after a faint to kill it, thats revenge killing and every poke can be revenge killed. a counter is a poke that can switch into the pokemon take a hit from any move then kill any of the builds of that poke.
so its not one kind of chomp, its any of chomps builds and any of chomps powerful moves, so yes stone edge counts.
every garchomp i have faced on suspect has had fire fang how can it not be popular? seems to be a lot of nitpicking as to why garchomp should be OU, truth is, i'm going off off what sent it to ubers in the first place, which was exactly that, NO COUNTERS.
yes there are pokes that can come in after a faint to kill it, thats revenge killing and every poke can be revenge killed. a counter is a poke that can switch into the pokemon take a hit from any move then kill any of the builds of that poke.
so its not one kind of chomp, its any of chomps builds and any of chomps powerful moves, so yes stone edge counts.
Ok, by that logic most of the OU sweepers have no counters either. The best example of this is Salamence. If the "counter" comes in on the wrong move then it will probably lose, as Mence can hit hard from either end of the attacking spectrum (unlike Chomp). Say you decide to switch you Swampert in on Mence, usually not that risky of a situation, but get hit hard by Draco Meteor. Now Mence can KO you with Outrage. The same thing goes for almost any sweeper in the OU metagame. Take Lucario, you switch in your Gengar or Gliscor and get OHKO'd by Shadow Ball or HP Ice.
In the end it's a really bad argument for chomp to be uber, and the only reason it's being brought up is probably the "OMG its Garchomp!!" hype.
In the end it's a really bad argument for chomp to be uber, and the only reason it's being brought up is probably the "OMG its Garchomp!!" hype.
If 'nothing can switch in and take a hit' was the argument for banning a Pokemon then Zangoose would have been banned from Underused a long time ago.
In fact, if I am to be so bold, I should say that this attitude towards Garchomp's banning 'because it hits hard' was probably one of the main reasons why Underused was such a ridiculous stall-fest before the BL merge - just about everything that could hit hard and do over 50% to whatever switched in was banned. You may say that Zangoose is a poor substitute for Garchomp, but I would honestly say that the only thing separating them with respect to their status in individual tiers was a slight difference in bulk.
In fact, if I am to be so bold, I should say that this attitude towards Garchomp's banning 'because it hits hard' was probably one of the main reasons why Underused was such a ridiculous stall-fest before the BL merge - just about everything that could hit hard and do over 50% to whatever switched in was banned. You may say that Zangoose is a poor substitute for Garchomp, but I would honestly say that the only thing separating them with respect to their status in individual tiers was a slight difference in bulk.
The difference between Salamence and Garchomp in my opinion is Garchomp's amazing typing Reaver. Dragon/Ground has impeccable coverage, with Fire Blast or Fire Fang to provide nearly perfect, if not perfect, coverage.
DDMence has the same moveset as Chomp with the exception of DD/SD. Garchomp is far superior just because of the fact that it gets STAB on its 2 main attacking moves. On top of that, Mence takes 25% from SR, easily one of the most omnipresent factors in Pokemon. While Chomp takes a mere 6%, making comparing the two very difficult.
Not only that, most people only think of Chomp as a sweeper, ignoring the fact he is as good, if not better, than Scizor as a revenge killer, as far as I've seen, when equipped with a scarf. You don't really "counter" a poke that is MEANT to come in, use 1-2 moves, and switch back out. Especially since it has already been shown that very few pokes can "safely" switch into Chomp, and most of those pokes will die to variants.
DDMence has the same moveset as Chomp with the exception of DD/SD. Garchomp is far superior just because of the fact that it gets STAB on its 2 main attacking moves. On top of that, Mence takes 25% from SR, easily one of the most omnipresent factors in Pokemon. While Chomp takes a mere 6%, making comparing the two very difficult.
Not only that, most people only think of Chomp as a sweeper, ignoring the fact he is as good, if not better, than Scizor as a revenge killer, as far as I've seen, when equipped with a scarf. You don't really "counter" a poke that is MEANT to come in, use 1-2 moves, and switch back out. Especially since it has already been shown that very few pokes can "safely" switch into Chomp, and most of those pokes will die to variants.
I wasn't saying that Mence was as good as Garchomp, I was just saying that the "no counters" argument didn't hold water.
I agree that Garchomp is one great Pokemon, but I'm still on the fence about its uber status. While it is a very good sweeper it can be prepared for and stopped, but usually not without losing a Pokemon. As for being a better revenge killer than Scizor that seems like a bit of a stretch. Lacking priority can be a problem, especially when it comes to revenging stuff with more than 1 speed boost.
I agree that Garchomp is one great Pokemon, but I'm still on the fence about its uber status. While it is a very good sweeper it can be prepared for and stopped, but usually not without losing a Pokemon. As for being a better revenge killer than Scizor that seems like a bit of a stretch. Lacking priority can be a problem, especially when it comes to revenging stuff with more than 1 speed boost.
Skarmory will wall Choice sets and Sub/SD (and still cause trouble to the SD/three attack set), not to mention sets up Spikes to wear down Garchomp in a way that Salamence and friends normally get worn down by SR. Bronzong can do so similarly, replacing Whirlwind/Spikes with the ability to hit hard using Gyro Ball and able to Explode.
The whole check/counter dichotomy these days is retarded anyway. Very few pokémon have any true "counter" by strict definition -- Infernape can predict the switch and U-Turn out of Cresselia! -- and how do you even "counter" a support pokémon? Make sure you're wasting moveslots on shitty Brick Break so you can eliminate screens and carry a Rapid Spinner and at least one weather user on every team?
That's merely a function of 2/3 teams using it. Part of it is because, like Scizor, it's simply very easy to fit onto most teams. Garchomp's usage is also inflated because it's the most controversial Suspect and getting SEXP for it is important.
Maybe it would still be the #1 used pokémon in normal OU if it was let back in -- in fact, I'd put money down on that holding true -- but what does that matter? Scizor is #1 right now by over 50% to #2, Salamence, yet nobody thinks Scizor is uber and some are even clamoring for a Salamence suspect test. Usage stats don't tell us anything except what's being used.
But where Garchomp gets STAB on its Earthquake, Salamence gets a much harder-hitting Fire Blast and the ability to blast through some physical walls with Draco Meteor. Garchomp can 2HKO Hippowdon at +2 with Earthquake or Outrage but Salamence can smack it for 90% straight-up on the special side, OHKO territory with even the slightest chip damage beforehand. Standard Garchomp barely does 50% to standard Skarmory with Fire Blast or +2 Fire Fang, it even needs SR to guarantee a 2HKO. MixMence can OHKO the same Skarmory (with Flamethrower, without SR) and physical Salamence still deals significantly higher damage. So on and so forth.
Some people like to argue that Garchomp is better just because it doesn't need to hit both sides of the spectrum. Who gives a shit? If I EV a pokémon offensively, I don't care if it gets 252 Atk, 252 SpA, 128 each or anything else in between. If it hits equally hard overall, it hits equally hard.
Salamence also has different resistances, making it able to switch into different things. Salamence tends to be a little less sturdy overall, due to its SR weakness, but it still switches in better against the types only it resists (especially Grass, 4x to Garchomp's 0x) and the Ground immunity is HUGE, huge like those capital letters.
The whole check/counter dichotomy these days is retarded anyway. Very few pokémon have any true "counter" by strict definition -- Infernape can predict the switch and U-Turn out of Cresselia! -- and how do you even "counter" a support pokémon? Make sure you're wasting moveslots on shitty Brick Break so you can eliminate screens and carry a Rapid Spinner and at least one weather user on every team?
That's merely a function of 2/3 teams using it. Part of it is because, like Scizor, it's simply very easy to fit onto most teams. Garchomp's usage is also inflated because it's the most controversial Suspect and getting SEXP for it is important.
Maybe it would still be the #1 used pokémon in normal OU if it was let back in -- in fact, I'd put money down on that holding true -- but what does that matter? Scizor is #1 right now by over 50% to #2, Salamence, yet nobody thinks Scizor is uber and some are even clamoring for a Salamence suspect test. Usage stats don't tell us anything except what's being used.
But where Garchomp gets STAB on its Earthquake, Salamence gets a much harder-hitting Fire Blast and the ability to blast through some physical walls with Draco Meteor. Garchomp can 2HKO Hippowdon at +2 with Earthquake or Outrage but Salamence can smack it for 90% straight-up on the special side, OHKO territory with even the slightest chip damage beforehand. Standard Garchomp barely does 50% to standard Skarmory with Fire Blast or +2 Fire Fang, it even needs SR to guarantee a 2HKO. MixMence can OHKO the same Skarmory (with Flamethrower, without SR) and physical Salamence still deals significantly higher damage. So on and so forth.
Some people like to argue that Garchomp is better just because it doesn't need to hit both sides of the spectrum. Who gives a shit? If I EV a pokémon offensively, I don't care if it gets 252 Atk, 252 SpA, 128 each or anything else in between. If it hits equally hard overall, it hits equally hard.
Salamence also has different resistances, making it able to switch into different things. Salamence tends to be a little less sturdy overall, due to its SR weakness, but it still switches in better against the types only it resists (especially Grass, 4x to Garchomp's 0x) and the Ground immunity is HUGE, huge like those capital letters.
This is to me is proabably Garchomp`s most important asset.
That and sand veil.
Honestly those 2 things and Garchomp`s typing are what had it uber in the first place. I honestly wouldn`t be surprised if it gets voted uber again.
I don't see why the 102 speed is such an issue. Most of those pokemon don't usually run max speed or a + nature. If Zapdos runs HP ice, Swampert beats it. If Celebi runs Hp ice, Scizor has fun. The most notable would be Mence, Manaphy, Jirachi and Flygon. Mence is the only one here it really matters against, possibly Manaphy. Jirachi usually doesn't run max speed, and only uses Ice Punch 21% of the time anyway. Flygon mostly runs adamant. Manaphy is 2HKO'd, and can't KO if Yache, and sometimes, doesn't even KO.
I have seen Haban Chomp, but there is always the possibility of Haban Mence too.
Basically, it now beats Mence 100% of the time. Wow one sweeper beats another, Azelf is broken, it beats Gengar.
I have seen Haban Chomp, but there is always the possibility of Haban Mence too.
Basically, it now beats Mence 100% of the time. Wow one sweeper beats another, Azelf is broken, it beats Gengar.
Exactly.
Some people are looking for dominance as defined at http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61246 rather than counters.
A Pokemon that dominates another beats it regardless of what set it runs; this is not common among the top OU pokemon.
As you rightly point out, a very stringent definition of what contsitutes a counter cannot be applied unfairly to Garcomp alone.
What counters both AgilitySubPetaya Empoleon and SwordsDance + AquaJet?
Apparently, many Pokemon that can go Special or Physical will likely demolish their counters to one set when running the other.
This is where the concept of bait/lure Tyranitar/Metagross or SubHPFire Gengar comes from since they can beat the usual counters to their most common sets.
So we're left with the conclusion that Pokemon *movesets* (ie individuals) are countered not entire Pokemon species.
The fact that some Pokemon species have only a few viable movesets that are countered by the same set of Pokemon does not change this fact.
It is just a simple, limiting case.
So asking for all of an OU Pokemon's movesets to be countered by a single set of Pokemon is quite unusual.
However, various Garchomp sets can be countered as others have pointed out.
I wonder what further Pokemon could revenge kill Garchomp if it had base 100 speed.
Admittedly, I haven't been thinking hard about it but I can't consider any non-priority user (obviously Ice Sharders don't care what speed Garchomp has) that misses out on revenge-killing Garchomp because of the extra 2 Base Speed points.
The major consequence I see is that max Speed Garchomp can always kill a max Speed Salamence and the Jolly ScarfChomp will always kill it even after a DD.
So?
It's a speed tie which is a bit of a crap shoot.
Garchomp has Base 102 speed since he doesn't have priority or Speed increasing moves.
Those limitations can be used against it to revenge kill it.
Anyway, why should it have Base 100 Speed...
maybe it would be better with 30 then Rampardos could revenge it. :)
It is for these reasons that Garchomp was proposed Uber in the first place, that and OHKO-2HKOing everything after a SD. However, if you look at these qualities closely you'll soon find that they don't give Garchomp much of an advantage.
Stealth Rock resistance: Garchomp is a sweeper, not a tank/wall. Having a SR resist is nice, but how does that give Chomp a sweeping advantage? How much of a difference would it make if Garchomp was neutral to SR?
102 Speed: What exactly do you accomplish with the extra 2 Speed? Only two of the six OU base 100 Speed Pokemon run both max EVs and a beneficial nature. Those Pokemon are Flygon and Zapdos. If Garchomp had 100 base Speed, which most people seem to assume, if it didn't have 102 base, then that only gives a speed tie which is a big gamble.
Sand Veil: Undeniably, Sand Veil is one of Garchomp's biggest assets. It gives Chomp a chance at defeating it's best revenge killers. However, there is another Pokemon with Sand Veil that is very similar to Garchomp. That Pokemon is Gliscor. It has access to Swords Dance, STAB Earthquake, and good Speed. Gliscor isn't even close to being Uber.
While the argument you give is, in a way, valid...I see it quite misconceptualized.
Oh and please don't take this personally. Anyways, again with Garchomp's UBER characteristics...
First of all, yes Garchomp (assuming you are talking about the SD variants) can be a sweeper. However, it does not mean that bulk and SR resistance is not so useful for Garchomp than for...let's say walls. I do understand that late-game sweepers such as SDChomp wouldn't switch in too often and that's the arguemtn you are giving for SR resistance not being too useful for Garchomp. However, it is also important to note that Garchomp's other popular variants, such as ScarfChomp and CBChomp switch in and out frequently. Thus, SR resistance can come in handy (unlike mence for instance).
102 speed: the extra two speed makes it so that max speed garchomp will always outrun those max speed 100based pokies. AH and A LOT of salamences go max speed as well (good example: mixmence's 16atk/240spA/252spe EV spread).
Sand Veil: yes, the "hax" is very useful actaully. Oh and like you said Gliscor is not UBER as its other attributes fall short regardless of having sand veil or not so I don't see this analogy too relevant to the garchomp's tier argument.
Oh and please don't take this personally. Anyways, again with Garchomp's UBER characteristics...
First of all, yes Garchomp (assuming you are talking about the SD variants) can be a sweeper. However, it does not mean that bulk and SR resistance is not so useful for Garchomp than for...let's say walls. I do understand that late-game sweepers such as SDChomp wouldn't switch in too often and that's the arguemtn you are giving for SR resistance not being too useful for Garchomp. However, it is also important to note that Garchomp's other popular variants, such as ScarfChomp and CBChomp switch in and out frequently. Thus, SR resistance can come in handy (unlike mence for instance).
102 speed: the extra two speed makes it so that max speed garchomp will always outrun those max speed 100based pokies. AH and A LOT of salamences go max speed as well (good example: mixmence's 16atk/240spA/252spe EV spread).
Sand Veil: yes, the "hax" is very useful actaully. Oh and like you said Gliscor is not UBER as its other attributes fall short regardless of having sand veil or not so I don't see this analogy too relevant to the garchomp's tier argument.
ok lets put something into perspective, another key factor into garchomps sweepability
its defences
108
95
85
immune to electric (which means immune to twave)
rock is NVE
to mences
95
80
80
weak to rock and neutral to electric.
immune to ground
so say all you like about how great mence is, but garchomp is not only faster, has important resistances to stealth rock and thunder wave, giving it a platform to switch into BUT it can also take a good few extra %, and as both mence and chomp dont invest in defencive EV's the differance is still there.
while intimidate for mence covers the lower defences physically, it does nothing to special attackers, where most ice attacks fly in from, sand vail could make a move miss completly, and is also another hazard for mence to deal with, as its not immune to sandstorm add that to your 25% from stealth rock and your lower defences.
do some comparisons, you will find the damage differance interesting.
its defences
108
95
85
immune to electric (which means immune to twave)
rock is NVE
to mences
95
80
80
weak to rock and neutral to electric.
immune to ground
so say all you like about how great mence is, but garchomp is not only faster, has important resistances to stealth rock and thunder wave, giving it a platform to switch into BUT it can also take a good few extra %, and as both mence and chomp dont invest in defencive EV's the differance is still there.
while intimidate for mence covers the lower defences physically, it does nothing to special attackers, where most ice attacks fly in from, sand vail could make a move miss completly, and is also another hazard for mence to deal with, as its not immune to sandstorm add that to your 25% from stealth rock and your lower defences.
do some comparisons, you will find the damage differance interesting.
At least you didn't compare Garchomp to the other Sand Veil user like some people do -_-. But having significantly less Att and Speed and lacking that insane Dragon STAB ensures Gliscor is a notch or two below Garchomp. And SD Gliscor is a pretty good Pokemon, albeit underutilized.
lordkira, your arguments are also valid. It is for this reason that Garchomp will always (until 5th gen) be a contraversial Pokemon. People will always have their opinions. However, I would like to bring up a point that doesn't have to do with Garchomp directly.
The results of Smogon's suspect testing affect both Smogon and the other competative battling communities that follow it. This amounts to tens of thousands of players. Smogon's suspect test voting consists of roughly 100 voters. These voters are chosen based on a set of criteria that are not open to the public. Therefore, we do not know how voters are chosen. But, we do know that they are chosen by, likely, less than half a dozen Smogon moderators. So, in essence, less than 10 people are deteriming an outcome that affects thousands. Something about this doesn't seem right.
The results of Smogon's suspect testing affect both Smogon and the other competative battling communities that follow it. This amounts to tens of thousands of players. Smogon's suspect test voting consists of roughly 100 voters. These voters are chosen based on a set of criteria that are not open to the public. Therefore, we do not know how voters are chosen. But, we do know that they are chosen by, likely, less than half a dozen Smogon moderators. So, in essence, less than 10 people are deteriming an outcome that affects thousands. Something about this doesn't seem right.