Raikou - Thunderstruck

[Heysup]

Pokemon that can be used to counter or check Raikou on offensive / bulky offensive teams:

Dugtrio, Sceptile, Swellow, Rhyperior, Gallade, Hariyama, Hitmontop, Hitmonlee, Ambipom, Ampharos, Swellow, Venusaur, Nidoking, Leafeon, Alakazam, Regirock, Torterra, Mesprit, Electrode, Camerupt, Shedinja. And interestingly enough, Raikou itself (CM or Screens + Roar variant)

Note that I make this list with no discrimination as to what methods they can use to deal with Raikou or their current effectiveness. I have also avoided the obvious ‘slap on Choice Scarf’ to revenge-kill‘, as that would be cheap and pointless, stretching the list out to a rather innumerable amount. I have also not included the obvious strong priority users such as Arcanine, Azumarill and Kabutops to finish Raikou off at low health as they go without saying.

Pokemon that can be used to counter or check Raikou on balanced-to-stall teams:

Chansey, Donphan, Clefable, all the Regis, Rhyperior, Umbreon, Steelix, Venusaur, Hariyama, Nidoqueen, Tangrowth, Claydol, Lanturn, Ampharos, Gastrodon, Lickilicky, Quagsire, Cradily, Shuckle, Torterra.

Half of those are immediately removed with Hidden Power Water, Hidden Power Grass, or Hidden Power Ice (Rhyperior for example...). And, remove ALL of the special attackers. You aren't left with many reliable counters, especially in this metagame.

Also, remember that there is Froslass, DS Alakazam, and the like supporting it.

Raikou isn't versus a team of 6 by itself....

 

[Alaka]

List should be more like:

Pokemon that can be used to counter or check Raikou on offensive / bulky offensive teams:

Venusaur, Regirock. And interestingly enough, Raikou itself (CM or Screens + Roar variant)

Pokemon that can come into a Raikou as it subs and beat it even if it has HP Ground, Water, Grass, or Ice. There is some debate about Venasaur but a bulky one though gallade/honch bait can counter it. I just went through the other list and deleted everything that looses to Raikou IMO. (list got a bit smaller)

Pokemon that can be used to counter or check Raikou on balanced-to-stall teams:

Chansey, Donphan, Clefable, Regirock, Registeel, Umbreon, Steelix, Venusaur, Tangrowth, Claydol, Lickilicky, Cradily, Shuckle.

Note that alot of these fall under the "if the opponent actually has other sweepers and I had to switch my Raikou counter in to have it do something other than just kill Raikou and I don't have another from this list I'm fucked" catagory

Well as you can probably see I believe Raikou is broken as there are so few Pokemon that can actually beat it all the time without risking being just killed by the wrong hidden power. It's a monster right now and everything is revolving around it.

 

[whistle]

since this list is supposed to create a discussion I think it would be beneficial if we explained additions or removals. I was pretty conservative with eliminating Pokemon since I think we should (as a community) make sure that this list is as accurate as possible.

it's pretty obvious that some of these Pokemon are easily dispatched by the appropriate Hidden Power, but since Raikou can't have Hidden Power Grass / Water / Ice at the same time, I left those Pokemon in.

red means I don't think it is a counter / check and there are explanations below.
green means it is not a counter, i.e. either (a) it is easily killed by the appropriate Hidden Power (note that this does not include Venusaur, who can still “beat” HP Ice Raikou if EVed properly (b) it can only force out Raikou once at large cost to itself.
blue means it is a counter, not just a check if Raikou doesn't have a Sub.
black just means it's a check.

I'm using 68 HP / 116 SpA / 72 SpD / 252 Spe Timid as Raikou's spread which probably biases the calcs towards the check / counter because Raikou could pretty easily shift that SpD into SpA, or even some HP (since none of them *almost* kill Raikou).

Pokemon that can be used to counter or check Raikou on offensive / bulky offensive teams:

Dugtrio, Sceptile, Swellow, Rhyperior, Gallade, Hariyama, Hitmontop, Hitmonlee, Ambipom, Ampharos, Swellow, Venusaur, Nidoking, Leafeon, Alakazam, Regirock, Torterra, Mesprit, Electrode, Camerupt, Shedinja, Raikou, Steelix (added).

Gallade
is slower and must use Close Combat to break Substitutes (or risk misses); easily 2HKOed at +1 or OHKOed with a CC SpD drop.
+1 Thunderbolt vs 0/0 Gallade 442 Atk vs 266 Def & 277 HP (95 Base Power): 169 - 201 (61.01% - 72.56%)
+1 Thunderbolt vs 0/0 -1 Gallade 442 Atk vs 177 Def & 277 HP (95 Base Power): 255 - 301 (92.06% - 108.66%)

Ampharos
set up bait. if it has Focus Punch, the best it can do is probably to die while ensuring Raikou doesn't have a free Substitute up. I didn't use any calculations but Ampharos is basically a special attacker with a weak Focus Punch for Clefable / Chansey, so...

Leafeon
horrible SpD and HP and can't OHKO Raikou even after it Substitutes with a Jolly LO Leaf Blade – maybe a shaky check to get Raikou weakened in a pinch but is still 2HKOed by a +1 Thunderbolt.
+1 Thunderbolt vs 0/0 Leafeon 442 Atk vs 166 Def & 271 HP (95 Base Power): 135 - 160 (49.82% - 59.04%)
+1 HP Ice vs 0/0 Leafeon 442 Atk vs 166 Def & 271 HP (70 Base Power): 268 - 316 (98.89% - 116.61%)
Jolly LO Leaf Blade vs 68/0 Raikou 319 Atk vs 186 Def & 338 HP (90 Base Power): 216 - 255 (63.91% - 75.44%)

Mesprit
can't kill Raikou, and doesn't even weaken it enough to get it into easy revenge kill range. easily 2HKOed by +1 Thunderbolt and if it invests more in defenses it doesn't do as much with Zen Headbutt.
Jolly Zen Headbutt vs 68/0 Raikou 309 Atk vs 186 Def & 338 HP (80 Base Power): 144 - 169 (42.60% - 50.00%)
+1 Thunderbolt vs 0/0 Mesprit 442 Atk vs 246 Def & 301 HP (95 Base Power): 184 - 217 (61.13% - 72.09%)

Pokemon that can be used to counter or check Raikou on balanced-to-stall teams:

Chansey, Donphan, Clefable, all the Regis, Rhyperior, Umbreon, Steelix, Venusaur, Hariyama, Nidoqueen, Tangrowth, Claydol, Lanturn, Ampharos, Gastrodon, Lickilicky, Quagsire, Cradily, Shuckle, Torterra.

Lanturn
set up bait for Sub / CM. I don't think damage calculations are needed...

 

[umbarsc]

Lanturn beats Substitutes with Waterfalls. I'm not quite sure if it can take on HP Grass or Ground Raikou by itself (it seems like Raikou could start setting up Calm Minds on weak Waterfalls before dealing a ton of damage), but it does beat HP Ice Raikou completely, and I think it also beats Shadow Ball Raikou. It can also Thunder Wave against non-Sub Raikou, which I think was the main point.

For Gallade, if it uses a non-Stone Edge move it breaks Subs 100% of the time. I don't think we can assume Raikou is at +1 and behind a Sub if we are interested in checking it. Otherwise Gallade is a solid check.

 

[whistle]

well raikou subs on the switch and calm minds as gallade breaks the sub. then depending on whether gallade used CC and whether it's under 92%, it can sub again or just ohko with thunderbolt.

even if gallade comes in on raikou without a substitute, it can sub for close combat defense drops. i guess psycho cut gallade can check raikou in this manner but it's not as common as stone edge afaik...

fair point on lanturn, if waterfall is viable (in terms of evs, workability for things other than raikou, etc). i thought i checked if it got it once and i didn't see it on its move list but apparently i was wrong.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Half of those are immediately removed with Hidden Power Water, Hidden Power Grass, or Hidden Power Ice (Rhyperior for example...). And, remove ALL of the special attackers. You aren't left with many reliable counters, especially in this metagame.

Special attackers? Unless you mean the likes of Regice, Lanturn and Ampharos who are often labelled as special attackers, but that doesn’t mean you have to take it literally. They are all capable of beating Raikou regardless of the tag they have been given. Alakazam is there because it can come in on a CM or Sub then Encore it. I guess Mesprit could be labelled as a special attacker too, but that guy is there for providing the slower sub-breaking U-turn to Dugtrio or other faster check on an offensive team, whilst having the bulk to take a hit. Is that cheating because Mesprit ‘should’ be using special attacks, or is it a gimmick just because it happens to be unusual and clever?

Also, remember that there is Froslass, DS Alakazam, and the like supporting it.

If this is such a significant factor as you are claiming, then Raikou is not the guilty party.

Raikou isn't versus a team of 6 by itself....

Just like how [insert Raikou check / counter here] isn’t versus Raikou and the rest of the team all by itself. Pointless statement.

Gallade
is slower and must use Close Combat to break Substitutes (or risk misses); easily 2HKOed at +1 or OHKOed with a CC SpD drop.
+1 Thunderbolt vs 0/0 Gallade 442 Atk vs 266 Def & 277 HP (95 Base Power): 169 - 201 (61.01% - 72.56%)
+1 Thunderbolt vs 0/0 -1 Gallade 442 Atk vs 177 Def & 277 HP (95 Base Power): 255 - 301 (92.06% - 108.66%)

Well obviously standard SD Gallade does badly against Raikou. But what is wrong with bulking up a bit and using some of Gallade’s great support options like Encore, Light Screen, Wish etc, or using other physical moves like Earthquake and other STAB moves that don’t hinder you defensively?

Ampharos
set up bait. if it has Focus Punch, the best it can do is probably to die while ensuring Raikou doesn't have a free Substitute up. I didn't use any calculations but Ampharos is basically a special attacker with a weak Focus Punch for Clefable / Chansey, so...

Seismic Toss, Light Screen etc. Nothing wrong with deviating from the standard if it benefits your team.

Leafeon
horrible SpD and HP and can't OHKO Raikou even after it Substitutes with a Jolly LO Leaf Blade – maybe a shaky check to get Raikou weakened in a pinch but is still 2HKOed by a +1 Thunderbolt.
+1 Thunderbolt vs 0/0 Leafeon 442 Atk vs 166 Def & 271 HP (95 Base Power): 135 - 160 (49.82% - 59.04%)
+1 HP Ice vs 0/0 Leafeon 442 Atk vs 166 Def & 271 HP (70 Base Power): 268 - 316 (98.89% - 116.61%)
Jolly LO Leaf Blade vs 68/0 Raikou 319 Atk vs 186 Def & 338 HP (90 Base Power): 216 - 255 (63.91% - 75.44%)

Again, Leafeon doesn’t have to leave its HP or special defense untouched, and can at least check HP Water / Grass variants from time to time. Not a counter, but I never explicitly said it had to be to begin with.

Mesprit
can't kill Raikou, and doesn't even weaken it enough to get it into easy revenge kill range. easily 2HKOed by +1 Thunderbolt and if it invests more in defenses it doesn't do as much with Zen Headbutt.
Jolly Zen Headbutt vs 68/0 Raikou 309 Atk vs 186 Def & 338 HP (80 Base Power): 144 - 169 (42.60% - 50.00%)
+1 Thunderbolt vs 0/0 Mesprit 442 Atk vs 246 Def & 301 HP (95 Base Power): 184 - 217 (61.13% - 72.09%)

Already covered above. Not a counter, but a bulky offensive supporter that can contain it.

Lanturn
set up bait for Sub / CM. I don't think damage calculations are needed...

Waterfall and Stockpile, most useful for a parafusion set. In this case it is Raikou who is the setup bait for Lanturn. Shaky against those with HP Grass or Ground, but that brings me to my next point.

You guys are all reading way too much into my post. All I did was list all the Pokemon that can check or counter Raikou in some way or another, I didn’t say that every one of them can absolutely 100% counter every Raikou out there. By that logic, Chansey isn’t a viable counter because you might be facing a Rest variant. So what if some of them lose if Raikou is carrying a super-effective Hidden Power? Raikou can only carry one, and you can take this into account when building your team. Do not say that this means you are forced to carry at least two good Raikou counters, because numerous counters already exist that don’t care about Raikou’s Hidden Power. It is just another team option.

And before anyone says anything, yes, I have used almost all of these at some point in the UU metagame (with a few exceptions like Hitmonlee, who is there just because it is no worse than Hitmontop when it comes to Raikou checking), all on good teams that have given me high win rates. So none of all that ’Gimmick!’ and ’ridiculous’ nonsense, because winning is all that matters. I should not have to feel guilty for not always sticking to the bog-standard, and if anyone wants to try and question my credibility as a battler, be my guest.

 

[Heysup]

Lanturn beats Substitutes with Waterfalls. I'm not quite sure if it can take on HP Grass or Ground Raikou by itself (it seems like Raikou could start setting up Calm Minds on weak Waterfalls before dealing a ton of damage), but it does beat HP Ice Raikou completely, and I think it also beats Shadow Ball Raikou. It can also Thunder Wave against non-Sub Raikou, which I think was the main point.

For Gallade, if it uses a non-Stone Edge move it breaks Subs 100% of the time. I don't think we can assume Raikou is at +1 and behind a Sub if we are interested in checking it. Otherwise Gallade is a solid check.

Any move not named Close Combat will fail to KO. That's why Gallade is probably going to have to use Close Combat if it wants to stop Raikou. Oh, and not to mention if it uses anything like Stone Edge with 8 PP it will run out of PP after 4 uses...

And Whistle, while I agree with most of your post, I have a couple issues. Your spread is pretty outdated, though it might not matter for some checks. I use 232 SpA / 24 SpD / 252 Spe and it's awesome.

How is Nidoking a check? Remember, most are Rash.

If Nidoking comes in after a Calm Mind, it is OHKOed:
493 Atk vs 167 Def & 303 HP (70 Base Power): 296 - 350 (97.69% - 115.51%)

If it comes in when Raikou has a Substitute up, it is 2HKOed:

329 Atk vs 167 Def & 303 HP (70 Base Power): 198 - 234 (65.35% - 77.23%)

If a Nidoking (with EQ, not Earth Power) comes in, somehow, with max HP, while Raikou is sub and CMless, then maybe it is an ok check, but you basically need to sacrifice it. I think that falls under your green definition.

And how is Electrode a counter? What can it do other than Taunt and die.

How is Alakazam a check? If it comes in after a Thunderbolt, it can't do anything really except Encore and lose half its HP.

How is Hitmontop a check? Raikou can just Substitute to block Close Combat and OHKO with Thunderbolt. Technitop doesn't do any better without using Close Combat (meaning it loses than and there). It doesn't 2HKO with Mach Punch:

317 Atk vs 186 Def & 321 HP (60 Base Power): 144 - 169 (44.86% - 52.65%)

and Raikou easily 2HKOes with Thunderbolt:

329 Atk vs 226 Def & 301 HP (95 Base Power): 150 - 177 (49.83% - 58.80%)

Regirock is not really a counter by any means, it can't switch into Calm Mind and take an attack because it doesn't KO:

328 Atk vs 186 Def & 321 HP (100 Base Power): 254 - 300 (79.13% - 93.46%)

and +1 Thunderbolt gets a clean 2HKO:

493 Atk vs 236 Def & 364 HP (95 Base Power): 213 - 252 (58.52% - 69.23%)

I gotta go for a bit, but this is a start....

Oh and, "lol" Shedinja.


EDIT: Lemmi, this is the same argument that was brought up last time Raikou was in UU. You can think of 100 billion Pokemon that can EV in max SpD and HP and maybe a bit in Attack and use a shitty Physical move, but in the long run that will hurt your team more than benefit it. Pokemon's standards are standard for a reason. They are better. Using your Stoss Ampharos is simply not viable versus every other Pokemon...

 

[LonelyNess]

Lanturn beats Substitutes with Waterfalls.

No one has ever used a physical lanturn and no one will ever use a physical lanturn... know why? Base 58 Attack...

152 Atk vs 186 Def & 338 HP (80 Base Power): 70 - 84 (20.71% - 24.85%)

To guarantee that you break Raikou's substitutes you need an attack stat of 183... which means pouring 124 EVs into Lanturn's Atk... No one is going to dedicate a 4th of Lanturn's total EVs just to break Raikou's sub...

You're best off just using something other than Lanturn to check / counter Raikou

List

I'm glad you made this list, and I intend to reply fully to it when I have the time to do so.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

And how is Electrode a counter? What can it do other than Taunt and die.

I never said it was a counter, but as a lead on an offensive team with T-Bolt / Taunt / Light Screen (or a Hidden Power) / Explosion, it can serve as an emergency check or transitional setup supporter against Raikou if still around mid-game. Taunt prevents Sub or CM, whilst Light Screen shields against Raikou's NVE T-Bolt, often its strongest option. HP Ground can break a Sub if you go that way, whilst Explosion does mega damage if not OHKOing, or at least breaking the Sub and letting something set up against +0 Raikou behind a screen.

 

[A.P.]

Lol, bested by the pro.

For me, Raikou doesn't necessitate two counters. I run a Venusaur, which is good at taking its attacks in general, Honchkrow, who mindgames it to hell (BB breaks Subs, and SP OHKOs afterwards, not that I immediately go to SP afterwards - if anything, Honchkrow becomes sacrificial bait by the time Raikou comes in), and Swellow, who OHKOs with Guts-cade and outspeeds as well - U-turn is a good option when I'm not statused yet.

Basically, you want two checks, usually something to take HP Ice, and one for everything else. Venusaur/Quagsire was a duo I ran previously, which worked wonders - and like everything else I've said so far, it has other uses. The point is, you don't have to overspecialize to beat Raikou, just a good team with at least 2 checks, which aren't hard to incorporate and serve other purposes as well.

 

[Heysup]

Interesting that you in particular should mention that, as I fondly remember walking over your team on two occasions with my Shedinja team. Remember the time when I brought Hitmontop in to spin against Raikou's Sub then switched to Shedinja? If I recall correctly, you quitted in frustration.

Uh..I really don't recall that (though it's entirely possible). Either way, Spikes or Stealth Rock are going to be up in this meta way more often than not.

 

[A.P.]

Uh..I really don't recall that (though it's entirely possible). Either way, Spikes or Stealth Rock are going to be up in this meta way more often than not.

Really? If your team doesn't have a spinner, maybe. But even then, it's hard to get SR up against pressure, and you have to factor in the teams minus entry hazards.

And three spinners almost always have guaranteed spins - Blastoise, with Roar/Yawn/Foresight, Foresight Top, and Odor Sleuth Donphan.

 

[Alaka]

Interesting that you in particular should mention that, as I fondly remember walking over your team on two occasions with my Shedinja team. Remember the time when I brought Hitmontop in to spin against Raikou's Sub then switched to Shedinja? If I recall correctly, you quit in frustration.

If you are gonna take a personal shot like that at least use proper grammar.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Missed this edit before.

EDIT: Lemmi, this is the same argument that was brought up last time Raikou was in UU. You can think of 100 billion Pokemon that can EV in max SpD and HP and maybe a bit in Attack and use a shitty Physical move, but in the long run that will hurt your team more than benefit it. Pokemon's standards are standard for a reason. They are better. Using your Stoss Ampharos is simply not viable versus every other Pokemon...

What part of 'good teams with high win rates' did you not understand? If anything I was using was somehow very 'hurtful' for my team overall, then it logically follows that my win rate with said team would be terrible, and I simply wouldn't be using it. An attempt to avoid the possibility of such a flimsy counter-argument was the very reason I mentioned that in the first place, but surprise surprise you managed to overlook that and bring up the point anyway.

Trying to argue that something is somehow 'overspecialized' is ultimately a self-defeating argument. And here's why. Say I am using one of those sets that you consider overspecialized for dealing with Raikou. Now to call it overspecialized implies that it is somehow a bad setup that will completely fail against anything other than that particular threat it is 'overspecializing' for. If this is the case, then this setup will indeed end up severely hurting my team's chances of winning, and it so follows that my team will end up losing the majority of matches. Now if this was the case, why the hell would I keep on using that set on the team? It simply doesn't stand to reason at all.

So if we follow this argument to its logical conclusion, any 'good' team (i.e. one with an acceptably high win rate) cannot possibly be using a set overspecialized to the point that it makes the team unworkable and 'bad'. With that possibility out of the window, only two general possibilities remain: either Raikou is able to easily dominate and walk over all 'good' teams that work in the metagame, or it is simply not broken in this metagame.

If your gonna take a personal shot like that at least use proper grammar.

How was it a personal shot? It was just friendly banter. I really don't see the need to post just to blatantly demonstrate the fact that English Language is not my specialist subject and therefore my grammar will not always be 100% perfect.

 

[Alaka]

Thats a really flawed arguement, not rational at all. I basically want to take the basis of your arguement and sum it up in one sentance:

If someone is able to win a majority of their matches there are no broken Pokemon in that metagame.

That is what you said shortened, but obviously makes no sense as somebody has to win every game.

 

[d2m]

Thats a really flawed arguement, not rational at all. I basically want to take the basis of your arguement and sum it up in one sentance:

If someone is able to win a majority of their matches there are no broken Pokemon in that metagame.

That is what you said shortened, but obviously makes no sense as somebody has to win every game.

And LN, HeySuP, and half the other people in this thread are using:

"If you weaken a sweeper's counters, put him behind screens, and give him a free switch in, he can sweep effectively."

As an argument for him being BL, which is even more preposterous.

 

[LonelyNess]

d2m, do not insult me by trying to oversimplify my argument like that. If you're not going to debate reasonably, get out of my thread.

 

[d2m]

d2m, do not insult me by trying to oversimplify my argument like that. If you're not going to debate reasonably, get the fuck out of my thread.

That was actually a dig more at oversimplification than your argument (internet sarcasm fail ftw?), but nonetheless it still stands. You haven't done anything but say "Yes, it has counters, but they're few and easy to weaken" then picked at very specific parts of a few select posts while ignoring the rest of their content. Then HeySuP comes in and says "Oh, but Raikou is sweeping behind screens, with spikes and SR, and with a free switch in, so none of your counters count."

Both are preposterous.

 

[Alaka]

d2m the point about weakening counters is incredibly valid, almost nothing stops Raikou with impunity, everything takes a significant amount of damage, if that damage is enough to kill because you actually have to fight the rest of your opponents team and don't just leave your counter completely and only for Raikou which in itself would be over-centralization.

In fact Raikou can weaken its own counters for itself. Say that a synthesis-less Venasaur switches in as Raikou subs, Raikou can simply hit it for 25% and then switch out, if this happens a couple times with Venasaur switching into a layer of spikes or stealth rocks, which is hardly unlikely, Venasaur is no longer a valid check for Raikou.

Sure thats alot to ask to get to do several times, but its not impossible and if Venasaur is your only Raikou check your done.

Simplification is good, it allows the truth of an argument to be seen through a vail of words and statements and paragraphs, but only if that simplification is the truth and holds up.

 

[d2m]

d2m the point about weakening counters is incredibly valid, almost nothing stops Raikou with impunity, everything takes a significant amount of damage, if that damage is enough to kill because you actually have to fight the rest of your opponents team and don't just leave your counter completely and only for Raikou which in itself would be over-centralization.

In fact Raikou can weaken its own counters for itself. Say that a synthesis-less Venasaur switches in as Raikou subs, Raikou can simply hit it for 25% and then switch out, if this happens a couple times with Venasaur switching into a layer of spikes or stealth rocks, which is hardly unlikely, Venasaur is no longer a valid check for Raikou.

Sure thats alot to ask to get to do several times, but its not impossible and if Venasaur is your only Raikou check your done.

Simplification is good, it allows the truth of an argument to be seen through a vail of words and statements and paragraphs, but only if that simplification is the truth and holds up.

Well let me ask you this then:

If I carry Honchkrow on my team, and use it to Pursuit Chansey, does that mean Chansey no longer becomes a counter to "Insert special threat X here"? No. A good player will be able to play around it. "Weakening counters" is a strategy the Raikou-user employs to help him sweep, in the same way teams built around Mence or Empoleon pulling off late game sweeps in OU. They use screeners and/or specific counters to more common counters for their sweeper.

The fact that you can build such a team around Raikou does NOT mean in any way it is BL. If it was, then nearly any setup or priority sweeper could be considered BL because, with their counters weakened or removed, they can sweep with ease.

 

[TSPhoenix]

Yawn seems like a good check to me, bring in Umbreon/Uxie before it gets too many CMs in and send it home.

Raikou seems dangerous, but its actually vulnerable to priority unlike say Mismagius which not only has more options but is immune to half of the priority moves out there.

 

[Heysup]

Really? If your team doesn't have a spinner, maybe. But even then, it's hard to get SR up against pressure, and you have to factor in the teams minus entry hazards.

And three spinners almost always have guaranteed spins - Blastoise, with Roar/Yawn/Foresight, Foresight Top, and Odor Sleuth Donphan.

Before or after it is tricked Choice Scarf? People should realize that those are not even remotely close to guaranteed spins.

Not to mention, if someone is using Pokemon like Stoss Ampharos, how hard is it going to be to set up Spikes with Froslass in the tier without having to deal with Crobat?

I know it might not be the case against Lemmiwinks because he will outplay the average joe, but saying "one of the best players in UU can win with Shedinja" doesn't make it usable for everyone else. More on this later.

What part of 'good teams with high win rates' did you not understand? If anything I was using was somehow very 'hurtful' for my team overall, then it logically follows that my win rate with said team would be terrible, and I simply wouldn't be using it. An attempt to avoid the possibility of such a flimsy counter-argument was the very reason I mentioned that in the first place, but surprise surprise you managed to overlook that and bring up the point anyway.

Deja Vu from the first round of BL/UU testing. Exact same argument happened. Hmm...oh yea. This is where I say "You aren't the average UU player. The fact that you can beat people with not-as-good Pokemon, but most people can't". IIRC you usually only beat me once with those teams (I don't remember details obviously, but I usually remember winning patterns), and then not after that because I'm not surprised / on auto-pilot whatever. If I (not being as good as you) can beat you because of your "lesser" Pokemon, then there is something quite the matter with the situation. Of course you can't win 'em all, but this isn't because I would have outplayed you.

That was actually a dig more at oversimplification than your argument (internet sarcasm fail ftw?), but nonetheless it still stands. You haven't done anything but say "Yes, it has counters, but they're few and easy to weaken" then picked at very specific parts of a few select posts while ignoring the rest of their content. Then HeySuP comes in and says "Oh, but Raikou is sweeping behind screens, with spikes and SR, and with a free switch in, so none of your counters count."

Both are preposterous.

First and foremost, stop screwing up the caps in my name, I got the name changed to "Heysup" for a reason.

Second, you are completely twisting and oversimplifying both LN's argument, and mine. Especially since that wasn't my argument, it was just an "icing on the cake" comment, but I really didn't expect you to see my actual argument anyway :(.

I'll say it in a way that you'll understand it (apparently you need to oversimplify things):

Let X = Raikous counters. Let Y = approx 50% of X. Let Z = approx 25% of X. These numbers aren't exact by any means, it's just meant to show my point.

Lets take a look at the status of Raikou's counters.

Raikou has X counters before a Calm Mind.

Raikou has X - Y counters after a Sub/Calm Mind. Is that easy to get? Yes. We both know that.

Raikou has X - Y - Z counters after Substitute/Calm Mind, Stealth Rock and Spikes. Are those easy to get? Yes. Arguably harder than I make it seem, but they aren't hard to get nonetheless.

Both Calm Mind/Sub and Entry Hazards are common battle conditions. I could add screens on but I'm sure you get the point.

So this means that Raikou has around 25% (maybe more, maybe less) of the counters people think it has just by looking at it. So as long as a couple of these common battle conditions are in play, then Raikou sweeps a significant portion of the metagame with little effort. Sounds like the offensive characteristic to me.

Yes, I know your going to say "it's the same for all Pokemon lololol", but think about it, is it? Think of it this way, Raikou has a smaller "X" than basically any other Pokemon because of its Speed. Very few, if any, Pokemon can match the lack of counters / checks to a Raikou running rampant with calm mind or sub with even minimal support.

The more clever people like my friend Lemmiwinks here are also going to say "well than is it the supporting Pokemon that are broken, or is it Raikou". I'd prefer to only address this if I have to though, because it's a completely different argument.

 

[Alaka]

@d2m

Yes people can build teams around weakening counters, pursuit users are common for just that reason. But the important factor here is the ease in doing so, eliminating or weakening all of the checks or counters for Empoleon or Salamence is more difficult than doing the same for Raikou in UU. The offensive characteristic in its description hones in on the importance of ease of play.

I also think that my second point above is notable here. Raikou hardly needs specific team support to weaken its counters, either just in the natural play of the game counters will be weakened, or counters without recovery can be weakened by Raikou iteself.

While empoleon and friends require specific lures to bring out and kill counters, Raikou's counters will just be weakened naturally to the point it can often sweep. Unless you plan to just sacrifice a Pokemon every time Sceptile leaf storms instead of bringing in Registeel or Venasaur, or allow Gallade to Close Combat for free cause if you were to bring in Venasaur or Claydol to take that hit you'd be open to the sweep.

 

[d2m]

First and foremost, stop screwing up the caps in my name, I got the name changed to "Heysup" for a reason.

Second, you are completely twisting and oversimplifying both LN's argument, and mine. Especially since that wasn't my argument, it was just an "icing on the cake" comment, but I really didn't expect you to see my actual argument anyway :(.

I'll say it in a way that you'll understand it (apparently you need to oversimplify things):

Let X = Raikous counters. Let Y = approx 50% of X. Let Z = approx 25% of X. These numbers aren't exact by any means, it's just meant to show my point.

Lets take a look at the status of Raikou's counters.

Raikou has X counters before a Calm Mind.

Raikou has X - Y counters after a Sub/Calm Mind. Is that easy to get? Yes. We both know that.

Raikou has X - Y - Z counters after Substitute/Calm Mind, Stealth Rock and Spikes. Are those easy to get? Yes. Arguably harder than I make it seem, but they aren't hard to get nonetheless.

Both Calm Mind/Sub and Entry Hazards are common battle conditions. I could add screens on but I'm sure you get the point.

So this means that Raikou has around 25% (maybe more, maybe less) of the counters people think it has just by looking at it. So as long as a couple of these common battle conditions are in play, then Raikou sweeps a significant portion of the metagame with little effort. Sounds like the offensive characteristic to me.

I started putting random caps in long ago, I may have gotten it right at some point.

You are, and since the metagame shift, have been VASTLY overestimating the ease at which things like SR, Spikes, Subs, CMs, and other things can set up.

Raikou also has a multitude of counters depending on which HP it takes, as well as being "Hard countered" by the 2 premier special walls in UU (Registeel and Chansey). Raikou is nothing but a Mismagius clone with less defensive options (he can only dream of 3 immunities), worse type coverage, and slightly better Spe and SpA. In the same way as Sub/CM Mismagius, it can easily sweep vast portions of the metagame with it's counters weakened or removed, or if it is behind screens and gets to set up on something that's encored, non-threatening, etc. Replace "Raikou" with "Mismagius" or really "Any offensive threat" and your logic remains the same.

Saying that a Sub and a CM are common battle conditions is preposterious. You could make a case for one or the other, but anyone that lets Raikou set up a sub and a CM without a Chansey, Registeel, Clefable, or other hard counter on their team deserves what's coming to them. They either misplayed against Raikou, overlooked Raikou in team building, or foolishly sacrificed their Raikou counter (or, in the case of nearly every team I run "Raikou Counter Strategy") earlier in the game.

All you're doing is tinkering with the definition of "common battle conditions" at this point. A decent case could be made for SR, and a decent case for a sub on a switch, but with many available spinners and the fact that nearly every poke in the metagame can at least break Raikou's sub (even if it means sacrificing themselves if he attacks instead of subs), means they aren't necessarily "common battle conditions".

 

[Alaka]

Hasn't Raikou done its job if you just sacrificed a poke to be sure to break a sub, and the worst part is, you haven't killed Raikou, you haven't even crippled it. You bring out your counter, Raikou switches out to something that scares off you counter, then when Raikou finds the opportunity it comes back in, what are you going to do, sacrifice a poke again?