Suspect Test Process Stage Three - Version 2.0!

So it's okay to consider revenge killing Lati@s with a select few pokémon after firing off Draco Meteor but we can't assume the same of Garchomp locking itself into Outrage?

I mentioned draco meteor just to show that Latios can 2hko Scizor with specs equipped, while Latias can't. And I've mentioned countless times that outrage is not necessary on SD Chomp.

Unfortunately, it's impossible to decipher statistically whether or not SDChomp regularly uses DClaw or Outrage -- we can't differentiate from past usage stats which attack specifically SDChomp uses more often -- but we do know skipping out on Outrage loses a lot of power.
Stats are irrelevant when damage calcs clearly show that Garchomp can 1-2hko evey Pokemon in the game after a SD with a set of SD\dragon claw\EQ\fire fang.

Calculations can't take into account circumstance but if you want 'em... +2 DClaw can't OHKO standard defensive Rotom-A, you might get burnt (shitty accuracy), allow it to Reflect or finish Garchomp off if it's very low health.
Please, don't make me laugh. If it's low on health you can finish off even a Rayquaza with a Smeargle's extremespeed. And yeah, try countering Chomp with a 60% accurate hypnosis...

Or maybe you switch Garchomp (still healthy) into Rotom's Shadow Ball. Knowing you can't 2HKO with SD/DClaw or 2xDClaw, I just keep Shadow Balling and trade/win. (It's just short of a 3HKO with no SpA EVs, one special drop or minor SpA investment + SR...) If Garchomp does have Outrage, then it does kill Rotom but is locked in for an easy revenge kill. +1 DClaw can hardly OHKO standard bulky attacking Gyarados. (~20% with SR) As stated before, Swampert can survive a +2 Earthquake with max HP and even minimal EVs in Defense. With SR, Gliscor is OHKOed half the time with +2 Outrage and easily killed with any other residual damage, DClaw doesn't come close. There's a number of calculations where Outrage's very large power advantage over Dragon Claw has obvious advantages, let alone once you leave theorymon for actual battling.
The "switching in" argument applies to every Pokemon in the game, hence it's irrelevant. What if Chomp comes in after a kill? Actually there are just a few situations in which outrage is preferable to dragon claw. And please, don't use the word theorymon with me, as I'm actively taking part in the suspect process since almost an year.

And does it matter that none of these pokémon can flat-out OHKO back, sans the rare Avalanche Swampert or Counter Swampert/Gliscor? Not really. Garchomp gets worn down like any other pokémon. Switch it into Jirachi? Oops, it U-Turned and you just lost 25% as they switch straight to a counter. (Or you lose 40% to Iron Head but force your switch.) Heatran? Garchomp lost 40% to SR + a very strong resisted Fire Blast. Heaven forbid anyone lay Spikes and Garchomp gets a taste of what Salamence goes through more regularly. Healthy Suicune Roars it in? So on and so forth.
Yeah, what a great argument. What if Rayquaza switches in on a predicted brick break from Scizor, and instead it u-turns out? Rayquaza loses like 25% of its health too... So yeah, let's test Rayquaza, after all, it loses health as well when switching in!!!

Suddenly, Garchomp's Yache Berry isn't always protecting it from Starmie's Ice Beam or Mamoswine's Ice Shard. Maybe Garchomp got in healthy after all and got to use it to "beat" said Starmie. Great! But now it's low enough for a multitude of pokémon to revenge; even though Starmie "lost" to Yache Berry, it opened the door for more than just Latias or CB Scizor to finish the job. If Garchomp locks itself into Outrage to get that kill, not so much against Starmie but perhaps other pokémon, then it becomes even easier as it can't even switch away from the revenge kill.
No, yache allows to beat both Starmie and Mamo (even CB Mamo fails at ohkoing it). And the fact that you need to resort to sacrificing Starmie\Mamo, then bring in your revenge killer of choice should tell you something on Garchomp's power. And anyway, as stated multiple times, even with 40% or so of its health (read: after yache berry activates) Garchomp can always switch out and come back later. And I don't accept the outrage-locked argument as I've already stated (and honestly I'm getting quite sick of repeating myself) that outrage is not needed on SD Chomp.
 
Yes, you said it, "outrage-locked Garchomp". I've stated multiple times that SD Chomp doesn't need to resort to outrage to kill its potential switch ins (I'm not even using the term "counters") as after a SD, dragon claw\EQ\fire fang will take care of every Pokemon in the game, barring Cresselia. I've provided several damage calculations in my previous posts to back up what I'm saying.

That's funny... I was under the distinct impression that Outrage was one of the main arguments for sending Garchomp to Uber under both the Offensive and Support clauses... emphasis on Garchomp not hitting hard enough with Dragon Claw (or, another way, losing a Choice Band boost). Same argument has been applied to Gyarados, only without a side-effect.

I don't disagree that Outrage is a bad move on SD Chomp regardless, given how it pretty much sets you up to be pounced upon by every Steel-type in OU. But without it Garchomp becomes much easier to counter, check, and wall to some extent, which I've learned from experience.
 
We don't care about Nintendo or their tiers.

So yeah, not an issue, stop bringing it up, and please read the philosophy of Smogon, and look up what "competitive" means. Oh, PS, Nintendo's tiers are 2 vs 2 so it's completely and utterly irrelevant so i recommend doing some basic research instead of providing us with laughs.

And honestly if you're arguing occa berry on scizor not being able to deal with latias or having trouble with wacan gyarados no one gives a fuck about your opinion, really. If you're appealing to things that are used < 3 % then you probably dont have an argument or you're playing with absolute scrubs. No one gives a fuck about your team so stop saying "I can't deal with it with my team and I have these two pokemon in my team to deal with it".
 
I don't disagree that Outrage is a bad move on SD Chomp regardless, given how it pretty much sets you up to be pounced upon by every Steel-type in OU. But without it Garchomp becomes much easier to counter, check, and wall to some extent, which I've learned from experience.

That's simply not true. Even without Outrage Chomp has the overall bulk to take hits and hit back hard with a +2 Dragon Claw, EQ or Fire Fang. Presumed that it has a Yache or Haban it will be able to take even super effective hits, and you could even give it some special defense so it will always survive a Draco Meteor from specs Latias(with Haban), and all non stabbed Ice Beams coming from 300 special attack or below. Eventual Misses makes this even more crucial as you probably had to rely on 2 to 3 pokes to kill Chomp, and one miss will be game in most cases.
If Chomp can beat a Swampert switching in SD even without Yache, I don't see why it needs Outrage.
 
My overall observation of this thread result that some people rate Garchomp OU, and many rate it Uber. If +2Chomp can really 2HKO even Lugia, Deoxys-D and Groudon (Haunter remarked that it 1-2hkos any pokemon in the game, so those are referred as well), as well as being able to survive each attack with a Yache Berry, there's no doubt it's uber. And counters really HAVE to use ice beam/dragon pulse, or Garchomp simply breaks the stall with ANOTHER Swords Dance. +4 Chomp can easily rend through any pokemon OU has, while surviving any attack speedier pokes can dish out.
 
Salamander hits just about as hard as +2 YacheComp does with Outrage after a DD and with Life Orb (and the consequences of using Outrage are the same for both).
Yes, we all know what their differences are (before someone starts reciting all of that again), just pointing out that Garchomp has company in breaking through almost anything.
Interesting, only scarfers and priority users are able to outrun a Salamence with +1 Speed while Garchomp's revenge killers include the above and more.
Garchomp's main practical advantage is it's generally superior sturdiness though it still needs a type resist berry to survive the right attacks and doesn't have the option of Roost or Intimidate.

Among Garchomp sets:

1)Choiced Garchomps can be predicted around and worn down with the right entry hazards.
2)Swords Dance + 3 attacks have better coverage but are most vulnerable to revenge kills without the protection of a sub.
3)Sub Dance can be forced out more easily by Skarmory.

Each set is potentially dangerous but none is insurmountable so as to be Uber.
IMO, Jolly ScarfChomp has the most use to the average team and is Garchomp's best set.

Anyway, I'm taking a break from this thread's abundant theorymon.
I won't be taking part in the vote (too busy) but I hope for the most fair outcome.
 
I'm sick of hearing all about how Garchomp can OHKO-2HKO every Pokemon in the game. It's not like Garchomp is the only Pokemon who can do this. Many of the top physical and special attacks can do the same damage as Garchomp. Just look at a Pokemon like Rhyperior: two great STABs, great HP, great Defense, great ability, and great movepool. Rhyperior also has access to Swords Dance and Rock Polish. Rhyperior is now UU. Granted, it has problems, but if OHKO-2HKOing every Pokemon in the game is so great than why isn't Rhyperior at least OU?
 
I feel that Garchomp is too strong for OU. Not all of its sets are broken, in my opinion, but it is those few that put it just above the bar for OU.

ScarfChomp

If Garchomp became OU, this would be, in my opinion, the most metagame changing set. It can fit into almost any team with huge ease, utilising it's great bulk, amazing typing and amazing STAB moves and critical speed to check almost every OU sweeper in the game. It has been stated often that Garchomp's speed is only really important when comparing it to Salamence, as this is all that the SD sweeper can outspeed that Salamence could not. However, I fell that on the scarfer this speed becomes much more important, as it allows for the outspeeding of Scarf Jirachi, Scarf Salamence and Scarf Flygon. It also outspeeds +1 Naive Salamence. Other scarfers do this also reach this kind of speed, but look how frail they all are. Gengar and Latias get pursuited easily, Infernape can't switch in on pretty much any decent attack more than once. Garchomp is taking hits that no other scarfer of his speed is, apart from Latias on the SpD side. Garchomp can also switch in without the chance of ever getting cut down to size by Thunderwave and if given sand stream support ( I know it is conditional but it deserves a mention ) There is no guarentee it will be hit with anything on the switch at all. It also has that resistance to rock that means it is switching into to Stealth Rock easier than its rival scarfers. Basically Garchomp is a scarfer that can just keep switching in, with few consequences. It also has the attack that Flygon wants so much for bringing down virtually every other Ou Sweeper. Assuming the Stone Edge, Outrage, Dragon Claw, Earthquake set and Stealth Rock, the most likely scenario, it kills Lucario, taking 65%-76% from a +2 LO adamant extremespeed, Gyarados, Tyranitar, Salamence, Infernape, Agiligross(OHKOing 252 / 252 versions and 2HKOing bulky versions why they 2HKO back without Ice Punch), Jirachi, Kingdra, Togekiss, Zapdos, Jolteon, Latias, Dragonite, Heatran, Electrivire, Empoleon, Magnezone, Rotom (Outrage 2HKO standard bold version), Gengar, Offensive, Starmie, Tentacruel.

This list is just insane, and when you consider that Garchomp's bulk and high attack means he is gonna keep coming in and finishing off weakened pokemon not on the list aswell, I think he is broken.

SD Resist-Berry Chomp

( note, this section assumes Latias will become OU so my point about the Haban berry / Yache Berry issue will not be valid unless Latias is made OU, although if Latias is not made OU, I feel that Yache-Chomp will bring it's over-centralization straight back to OU anyway with few alterations, other than guarantee of a fire move to kill scizor while it only does roughly 50% to Garchomp with BP, or else ChompZone will become hugely popular, still over-centralizing the metagame in my opinion )

This is the famous set, so I don't think too much explanation needs to be made here. However, the main point is this. Latias's presence in OU will prompt Garchomp to commonly carry Haban Berry, and this will raise the usage of Ice moves, prompting a rise in the use of Yache Berry too. This uncertainness between the berries means that team will be forced to carry a pokemon with one move of each, just to make sure they get Garchomp, if they want him checked properly, or will be forced to carry one of these moves and then a Scizor to finish Garchomp off should that move fail. I think this is over-centralization at its height, the idea of potentially sacrificing a pokemon in order to hopefully be packing the right move to kill Garchomp is scary. Also, I could definitely see Bulky SD Garchomp becoming popular, as with just 30 more def points, Garchomp has almost no chance of being 2HKOed by CB Scizor after Stealth Rock. I think this SD Garchomp would produce the exact same issue it did last time, it just becomes the whole focus of the metagame.

Substitute Salac SD Set.

This set's main issue is suffering from the dreaded 4 Moveslot Syndrome. However, I feel in the OU environment, this will not be a big issue for it at all. After it has finishes subbing down, the only things that outspeed Garchomp are the other 100+ scarfers I mentioned previously, and priority attacks. If Garchomp came to OU, I would feel forced to pack two counters to this set, Scizor and a Scarfer or Bronzong / Skarmory, as this set will undoubtly be flanked always by Magnezone support, blocking Lucario and Scizor from using their priority. I feel that, unlike DD salamence today, I would not have to weary of a possible Magnezone on their team, better switch more often, I would have to be thinking about how to stop it trapping Scizor before Garchomp came out. Bulky Gyarados can provide a bulky intimidate to try and weaken this set and it has so SE weaknesses to this set, but it is highly by Stealth Rock and, you guessed it, that darn Magnezone. Once again, I feel that this set would overcentralize the metagame about it and although it is not as worrying as the SD set, it still seems too strong to be fair and viable to me.

Well, there is my soon-to-be-flamed 2 cents. Note, I am not looking for a huge shouting match over what I have posted, I will discuss my points but please be civil. This comes from an OU player who feels that putting Garchomp back in OU would cause exactly the same problems it did last time.


Because people are talking about this at the moment:

Points why I feel Garchomp is Uber and Salamence in OU.


Garchomp resists Stealth Rock and Sandstorm, Salamence is weak to Stealth Rock and does not resist sandstorm.
Garchomp has the bulky stats that Salamence wishes it has, to take priority and neutral attacks and Garchomp has just 2 weaknesses to common attacks, whereas Salamence has three and the extra Rock weak makes it much more sweepable by other Dragon Dancers.
Both have amazing abilites, but Garchomp's gives it better sweeping potential, whereas Salamence's is more defensive, which does not contribute to its main purpose, sweeping.
Garchomp cannot be thunderwaved, one of the most common and dangerous status in the game, Salamence can.
+1 Salamence can be checked by Scarf Flygon and Scarf Jirachi, whereas +1 Garchomp can't.
Garchomp has the best mix of STABS, speed, bulk and weaknesses for a revenge killer and will frankly dominate the metagame from that point. Salamence has the Stealth Rock weakness, three weaknesses and the lack of Stab Earthquake holding him back.
Standard Salamence is forced to DD again or use Outrage when confronted with an intimidator such as Salamence or Gyarados, indeed these two pokemon really help keep DD in check. Garchomp will still be + 1 and can always just Stoned Edge if it carries that, negating these two.

Salamence is immune to both Toxic Spikes and Spikes. Although these rare, this is significant against spike stacking and stall teams. However, the abundance of Stealth Rock means Salamence still has the short end of the stick here.
Salamence has the advantage over Garchomp in two fields.
Better SpA to run Draco Meteor and Fire Blast, although Garchomp can also run Fire Blast to good effect, especially against Scizor.
Salamence has the nice ground and fighting immunites, but I think that Garchomp's great immunities and better defenses are just as good in their own way, and make it easier to fit onto a team.
 
I feel that Latias deserves a place their because there is a good chance that Latias will remain OU and if it does I feel that it is one of the key pokemon that interacts with Garchomp, the main pokemon that will start the usage of the Dragon-resist berry, thereby causing the split.

I am sorry but I am going to leave it there for now and maybe put a disclaimer about Latias at the start of the post.
 
Salamander hits just about as hard as +2 YacheComp does with Outrage after a DD and with Life Orb (and the consequences of using Outrage are the same for both).
Yes, we all know what their differences are (before someone starts reciting all of that again), just pointing out that Garchomp has company in breaking through almost anything.
Interesting, only scarfers and priority users are able to outrun a Salamence with +1 Speed while Garchomp's revenge killers include the above and more.
Garchomp's main practical advantage is it's generally superior sturdiness though it still needs a type resist berry to survive the right attacks and doesn't have the option of Roost or Intimidate.

Half the point is that Salamence needs a Life Orb to pull that off, while Garchomp doesn't.
 
Half the point is that Salamence needs a Life Orb to pull that off, while Garchomp doesn't.

Here, I go back on my word...

Anyway, my point was that Salamence is about equally as destructive as Garchomp after a turn of setup so the 1-2HKO everything Uber argument does not really convince me.
With or without Life Orb is not really relevant because, if you cannot check it, Salamence does not even need 11 turns to sweep you and if you can predict right or have a revenge killer you beat it regardless of LO.
After a DD, Salamence is out of the reach of essentially all non-Scarfers and can afford to compensate for the +1 Attack boost with LO.
Type resist berry is better for Garchomp as it hits high attack after a Swords Dance but is more vulnerable to revenge kills as it lacks the speed boost.
It'll generally be slower so it needs the bulk to avoid being useless.

Consider that DD Salamence does not really have a 100% counter as even Specially Defensive Skarm is roasted by Fire Blast so only Priority users or Scarfers can really take it down.
On the contrary, Skarm does acceptably against a few Garchomp sets and Chomp is vulnerable to most of Mence's revenge killers plus some additional ones that sit at lower speed.

I dunno, I feel that we are at a threshold here.
If Chomp is voted Uber again, I think the floor will be open for other nominations.
Not that believe Salamence will be Uber as we're used to it but I don't think the differences between them make one Uber and the other not.
 
We are meant to be talking about why Garchomp is OU or Uber, not if Salamence should be "Open for nomination". It isn't about their power, it's about how it coincides with the metagame! Salamence does not cause massive centralization and this shows it is handled by the metagame. You can see that if you compare current usage stats to the Usage Stats of Garchomp's era, that the Top 8 pokemon had huge usage stats and that fact that this faded after Garchomp was banned showed the effect he had on the metagame (although we already knew). Garchomp over-centralises OU, and will do even in the HGSS metagame, Salamence just doesn't.

So please stop the constant arguements about which one had the most attack after a turn of set-up excetera. Rhyperior has huge attack after a set-up, but the metagame handled him so well he dropped to UU. Its about how they fit into the metagame, not against each other.
 
I think Tarquin is right here,
DD Mence is vulnerable to priority, Sr, scarfers, sand and bulky steels like specially defensive Skarm, which btw will not be roasted but will take around 70% allowing it either to use Brave Bird for the ohko or phaze. Salamence is much more frail than Garchomp and definetely not able to set up against half of the metagame. For example I even could set up SD against a Latias by simply faking a scarf, something you could probably never do with Mence, in addition to Garchomp´s versatility it has resistance to Sr and immunity to thunderwave, which means it can eleminate its revengers before boosting itself, something DD-Mence can´t due to the abundance of Sr and sand.
 
...couldn't I argue back and say that Garchomp gets hit by Toxic Spikes and spikes? Mence can roost ya know...

But thats more about me thinking Mence is uber than Garchomp OU.

I feel that Garchomp is overpowering but not as overpowering as people are making it out to be
 
Ts can easily be removed, and all spikers will have a tough time against Garchomp;
also I haven't seen a single Mence on suspect, statistics prove that it is outclassed by Chomp, which by the way can run a mixed set as well and surprise many of its so called counters.
 
Ts can easily be removed, and all spikers will have a tough time against Garchomp;

If that's your argument, then Stealth Rock can be easily removedas well. Also, the Spikers you're likely to find about the place are things like Skarmory, Forretress, Roserade... all capable of taking Garchomp on.

also I haven't seen a single Mence on suspect, statistics prove that it is outclassed by Chomp, which by the way can run a mixed set as well and surprise many of its so called counters.

Or alternatively you could run a mixed Salamence, which is better than mixed Garchomp in almost every respect. The lack of Salamence on Suspect could just as easily be attributed to the need to gain SEXP on Garchomp, as well as Garchomp's old reputation (built up during an irrelevant metagame that no longer exists, where the suspect system was fundamentally flawed). Furthermore, Mence is almot entirely different from Garchomp - better offensive stats on both sides, a better offensive movepool, a reliable way of increasing its Speed, as well as a better ability, in contrast to Garchomp's single-minded ambition. Also, determining whether Garchomp is Uber is not, as you seem to think, based on statistics. It doesn't matter that much if Garchomp has Swords Dance, or outruns two more things than the average Salamence, but if it is Uber by Smogon's Uber characteristics, which is the only area in which there is any room for debate at this point. Garchomp does not usually sweep teams, and I cannot see it being declared Uber under either the offensive or the defensive characteristics. To my mind, the fight will be won and lost over the support clause - the clause that seems all too often to be the deciding factor in the portrait of an Uber for comfort - whether Garchomp is the consistent threat that almost exactly half of Smogon make it out to be.
 
If that's your argument, then Stealth Rock can be easily removedas well. Also, the Spikers you're likely to find about the place are things like Skarmory, Forretress, Roserade... all capable of taking Garchomp on.
Also, determining whether Garchomp is Uber is not, as you seem to think, based on statistics. It doesn't matter that much if Garchomp has Swords Dance, or outruns two more things than the average Salamence, but if it is Uber by Smogon's Uber characteristics, which is the only area in which there is any room for debate at this point. Garchomp does not usually sweep teams, and I cannot see it being declared Uber under either the offensive or the defensive characteristics.
Are you serious about this? Chomp having Sd and outruning all base 100 pokemon, is what makes it uber. And the fact that it may not sweep whole teams is due to a overpreparation everyone HAD to make. You will need to accomplish the following things in order to check Chomp: Have a strong ice beam(more than 300 special attack or stab, lo can be factored in of course), have a faster dragon, have a Skarmory or Zong for salac users OR Scizor and a bulky Roarer.

And even if you pack all these things in your team they can't guarantee that Chomp does not sweep them. Since it might not have a wide movepool as Mence does, but it's more versatile can play hit and run games to sweep late game when all checks ( at least frail ice or dragon attack users) are dead. Also Sr being easilier removed than TS is ridiculous. You only need a Roserade to remove ts, while removing sr and spikes can be VERY difficult.
 
I've been running a fairly bulky SD Garchomp that can take just about anything (it isn't 2HKOed by Scizor ever, which is cool too), and I really haven't been noticing the lack of attack at all.

In fact, I've been running Fire Blast as my last attack over Fire Fang, and I really feel its a lot better. 2HKOing almost every Skarmory on the switchin is very nice, because everyone knows surprise is the key to suspect. I don't mind not hitting Bronzong as hard, its worth the OHKOes on Forry (and Scizor with SR down.... though its probably without it as well) and the easy 2HKO on Skarm, because quite frankly those pokemon are much more common and much more troublesome.

Anyways, anybody arguing SR(/Spikes) is just as easy to remove as TSpikes should probably stop talking. There are almost no viable spinners in this metagame that have an easy time getting around Rotom-a. Whereas I can send in my Roserade/Tentacruel/possibly Nidoqueen and just suck TSpikes up. Granted, there aren't a lot of quality grounded Poison-types in this metagame, the fact that TSpikes can be removed on a switchin while SR cannot should say something.
 
Yes guys, definitely don't overexaggerate things. I'm the first person to say that Chomp is overpowered for OU, but

Ts can easily be removed, and all spikers will have a tough time against Garchomp;
also I haven't seen a single Mence on suspect, statistics prove that it is outclassed by Chomp, which by the way can run a mixed set as well and surprise many of its so called counters.

this is false. Mence is a better mixed attacker due to it's 135\110 offensive stats, and the fact that it's rarely seen on the suspect ladder means almost nothing, as the suspect ladder is a "virtual metagame". And yeah, toxic spikes and spikes are harder to set up but stealth rock can be removed as well.

If that's your argument, then Stealth Rock can be easily removedas well. Also, the Spikers you're likely to find about the place are things like Skarmory, Forretress, Roserade... all capable of taking Garchomp on.

This is false as well. Forretress and Roserade are both outsped and ohko'd by a +2 Chomp, and Skarm is 2hko'd by fire fang after a SD (and can only roar it out in return).
 
That's not that much of a bad reason. Only Mence and Flygon are affected by this (badly)

Outrunning those two is a big thing in my honest opinion.
It most definitely plays a role to strengthen Garchomp greatly.
However, like you I also don't see this as THE reason to put Garchomp into UBERS.
 
Anyways, anybody arguing SR(/Spikes) is just as easy to remove as TSpikes should probably stop talking. There are almost no viable spinners in this metagame that have an easy time getting around Rotom-a. Whereas I can send in my Roserade/Tentacruel/possibly Nidoqueen and just suck TSpikes up. Granted, there aren't a lot of quality grounded Poison-types in this metagame, the fact that TSpikes can be removed on a switchin while SR cannot should say something.

If that was directed at me, I am not arguing that Stealth Rock is as easy to remove as Toxic Spikes in this metagame, I am arguing that Stealth Rock is just as hard to remove as Toxic Spikes in this metagame. Not quite the same thing.

If, indeed, you are ballsy enough to use a grounded Poison, then yes, you can remove Toxic Spikes with ease. If you prefer to use more conventional tactics, they are quite similar to Toxic Spikes in regards to removal, and you can't argue that one is more powerful than the other; indeed I would state that for a set-up sweeper the immunity to Toxic Spikes would be slightly more valuable.

This is false as well. Forretress and Roserade are both outsped and ohko'd by a +2 Chomp, and Skarm is 2hko'd by fire fang after a SD (and can only roar it out in return).

Fair enough, but I didn't mean that they made conventional counters to Garchomp, as you seem to have taken the message. I was saying that they aren't exactly the Pokemon that you would switch Garchomp into, with the expectation of setting up and sweeping, as Chii seemed to be saying. I would also like to stress that not all Garchomp carry Fire Fang, and in the case of Choice variants (by far the most common type), then yes, Forry and Skarm can switch in on a non-Fire Fang move and do what they please.
 
Toxic Spikes are easily removed... on paper. You just switch in a grounded Poison-type and voila, they're gone! You don't even have to Rapid Spin them. In reality, the highest usage of such pokémon are Roserade and Tentacruel, way down at #40/#41, most of which are used by the very people laying their own Toxic Spikes. Yeah, they're "easy" to remove if you want to dedicate a team slot to Roserade/Venusaur or the garbage-ass Nidos/Tenta. :chaos: For the most part, they've gotta be Spun just as much as the other two.

You can see that if you compare current usage stats to the Usage Stats of Garchomp's era, that the Top 8 pokemon had huge usage stats and that fact that this faded after Garchomp was banned showed the effect he had on the metagame (although we already knew). Garchomp over-centralises OU, and will do even in the HGSS metagame, Salamence just doesn't.

Let's look at the estimated usage stats for the last full month that Garchomp was last in OU proper, August 2008:

Garchomp (54.74%), Gengar (45.38%), Gyarados (35.91%), Metagross (35.46%), Lucario (33.83%),
Deoxys-S (31.85%), Blissey (31.79%), Heatran (31.06%), Bronzong (28.27%), Infernape (26.56%)

How many of those pokémon enjoy a strong match-up against Garchomp? Deoxys-S is dismissable for a variety of reasons, not the least of which being that it's dominant in every facet of the game and rebanned now anyway. Yeah, it can probably switch into Garchomp once and threaten Ice Beam, but come on... Gyarados is a decent match for Garchomp but, more than a year later through September 2009, it's still #3 in usage! The only other pokémon on that list strong against Garchomp is Bronzong, who's dropped into the low-mid OU usage range since. Alright, that's valid. It was also only 9th in usage, so who cares? Less than half the list likes to see Garchomp and, except for Bronzong, the top of the usage list in general hasn't changed a whole lot with the coming and going of Garchomp. (Even Salamence was #11 at the time, so it's not like it was unused.) There's no evidence that it's caused any significant centralization other than enjoying a generically high usage, which itself doesn't prove anything other than lots of people just happen to use it.

For example I even could set up SD against a Latias by simply faking a scarf, something you could probably never do with Mence

Salamence couldn't fake a Scarf? The only reason you wouldn't scare away Latias that way with Salamence is because they wouldn't expect you to be using a Scarf. That doesn't have anything to do with Salamence's (lack of) strength as a Scarf user. It's a perfectly good Scarfer, it's just not very common and so you can't expect your opponent to react to it in the same way. While DDMence might not fake Latias out and get it to switch unnecessarily, like SDChomp faking Scarf, Scarfmence could trick Latias into not switching and OHKO it! It works both ways, man.

also I haven't seen a single Mence on suspect, statistics prove that it is outclassed by Chomp, which by the way can run a mixed set as well and surprise many of its so called counters.

Gee, this sound a lot like the same reason you used against Salamence right above (surprise factor, faking movesets), except now you're using it to argue in favor of Garchomp. :justin2: The difference is that, while Scarfmence is every bit as usable as Scarfchomp or Scarf Latias (sans Trick), "mixed" Garchomp is a pure gimmick used solely to catch people off-guard. (i.e. It's not good on its own merits.) It doesn't even work that well and is garbage after that first surprise kill (e.g. OHKO Skarmory, Meteor on Gliscor), if you even get one. (That's not Skarm, it's Suicune!) But Garchomp is "guaranteed" to get a kill with its conventional movesets anyway, what does it need a gimmick for?!
 
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