My example to back my point was Deoxys-A. If Deo-A randomly became a suspect, people would probably start running priority in an attempt to stop it, bullet punching, extremespeeding stuff everywhere, and that would made Deoxys-A look similarily less threatening. I hope we can all agree that Deo-A is uber?
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Suspect Test Process Stage Three - Version 2.0!
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My example to back my point was Deoxys-A. If Deo-A randomly became a suspect, people would probably start running priority in an attempt to stop it, bullet punching, extremespeeding stuff everywhere, and that would made Deoxys-A look similarily less threatening. I hope we can all agree that Deo-A is uber?
not if it FORCES you to use some of those pokemons to "counter" garchomp.
as some have said earlier in the thread, even with people preparing for garchomp in the suspect, it still remains to be a HUGE threat (yeah yeah some have not been having such a hard time yah yah). If it forces you to take certain measurements in order to be prepared for garchomp, then i would say that's too much.
Ugh... The trend I'm beginning to see here is starting to annoy me... Regardless of whether it's broken or not, Garchomp is certainly a threat. Thus, you have to be prepared for it, just like you have to prepare for Lucario or Salamance. If you don't, you can't simply cry foul for being swept by it, as it's a known threat, and thus wagers the same amount of preparation as any other threat.
In other words, a Pokemon forcing you to actually be prepared for it is hardly a characteristic of being an Uber. What is a problem, is if the only possible way you can prepare for a Pokemon is by making such huge changes to your team and using Pokemon in ways that they're not typically used at all, that you open yourself up to a number of other threats just to handle the suspect.
An example of this might be something like having to use something like a Vaporeon and having to invest extremely heavily in Special Attack on it to handle a suspect, so that it no longer has the actual bulk it needs to do its main job. Since the only way to handle the suspect is to adjust Pokemon to the extent that they cannot perform their roles outside of defeating the suspect, then the suspect would be broken.
However, Gyarados just using Ice Fang more? Metagross opting for Shucca Berry and Ice Punch more often? Not so much--that's just adjusting to the metagame, which is to be expected, and would be silly to do otherwise. They still accomplish their roles just fine, and aren't centered solely around being a Pokemon, so there's no problem.
Remember, GARCHOMP WAS NOT BANNED FOR BEING "CENTRALIZING"! One of the reasons it was banned was for overcentralizing the meta-game, but even that was just a result of its Offensive (and support, too, due to tearing open teams, but I don't believe that was argued as much at the time) characteristics. In any case though, "overcentralzing" was not just Gyarados opting for Ice Fang more often. No one really complained about that too much. It was how you had to put something like Choice Scarf Glaceon on your team to deal with YacheChomp, the most common variant at it's original time of banning. In other words, Pokemon that's only use were to beat it, and weren't that useful at all outside of that purpose.
IP Metagross and IF Gyarados are perfectly viable options though, even in the metagame without Garchomp, and they work perfectly fine, so there's no problem if these become more common to address the threat (as as a threat, Garchomp has to be addressed and prepared for in some form, just like everything else, just so long as you don't have to go over the line to do it). Thus, unless we actually have to start using stuff like SpecsGlaceon or Abomasnow to have a chance against Garchomp, I'm really not getting the problem here. If we actually have to use otherwise unviable or purposeless sets to defeat Garchomp, then fine, but if the sets are still sets that exist even now and work just fine outside of Garchomp, then I'm not seeing what the problem is with them becoming the more used sets to handle the new threat.
Basically, my point to people like ARandomDude is this--change is not inherently bad. It's fine if some changes occur in order to keep Pokemon like Garchomp in-line. It's only a problem if it gets excessive, with CS Glaceons popping up everywhere and such. Unless such a point is reached though, and it ends up that perfectly viable sets handle Garchomp just fine, it having caused change in the metagame is hardly a reason to ban it.
In other words, a Pokemon forcing you to actually be prepared for it is hardly a characteristic of being an Uber. What is a problem, is if the only possible way you can prepare for a Pokemon is by making such huge changes to your team and using Pokemon in ways that they're not typically used at all, that you open yourself up to a number of other threats just to handle the suspect.
An example of this might be something like having to use something like a Vaporeon and having to invest extremely heavily in Special Attack on it to handle a suspect, so that it no longer has the actual bulk it needs to do its main job. Since the only way to handle the suspect is to adjust Pokemon to the extent that they cannot perform their roles outside of defeating the suspect, then the suspect would be broken.
However, Gyarados just using Ice Fang more? Metagross opting for Shucca Berry and Ice Punch more often? Not so much--that's just adjusting to the metagame, which is to be expected, and would be silly to do otherwise. They still accomplish their roles just fine, and aren't centered solely around being a Pokemon, so there's no problem.
Remember, GARCHOMP WAS NOT BANNED FOR BEING "CENTRALIZING"! One of the reasons it was banned was for overcentralizing the meta-game, but even that was just a result of its Offensive (and support, too, due to tearing open teams, but I don't believe that was argued as much at the time) characteristics. In any case though, "overcentralzing" was not just Gyarados opting for Ice Fang more often. No one really complained about that too much. It was how you had to put something like Choice Scarf Glaceon on your team to deal with YacheChomp, the most common variant at it's original time of banning. In other words, Pokemon that's only use were to beat it, and weren't that useful at all outside of that purpose.
IP Metagross and IF Gyarados are perfectly viable options though, even in the metagame without Garchomp, and they work perfectly fine, so there's no problem if these become more common to address the threat (as as a threat, Garchomp has to be addressed and prepared for in some form, just like everything else, just so long as you don't have to go over the line to do it). Thus, unless we actually have to start using stuff like SpecsGlaceon or Abomasnow to have a chance against Garchomp, I'm really not getting the problem here. If we actually have to use otherwise unviable or purposeless sets to defeat Garchomp, then fine, but if the sets are still sets that exist even now and work just fine outside of Garchomp, then I'm not seeing what the problem is with them becoming the more used sets to handle the new threat.
Basically, my point to people like ARandomDude is this--change is not inherently bad. It's fine if some changes occur in order to keep Pokemon like Garchomp in-line. It's only a problem if it gets excessive, with CS Glaceons popping up everywhere and such. Unless such a point is reached though, and it ends up that perfectly viable sets handle Garchomp just fine, it having caused change in the metagame is hardly a reason to ban it.
I suppose... =/
You have to take certain measurements for many of the OU pokemon, not just Garchomp. It's not like Garchomp can switch in on anything and expect to start sweeping, it's the same as almost every other sweeper. I could argue that if Salamence came out on anything a Garchomp could and get a DD up where Garchomp got an SD and sweep an entire team.
overcentralization
is what garchomp is doing like i said
and as you nexte are saying, that is what i am saying
it limits people from using other pokemons for only few due to garchomp in the league
@away: you don't have to give me the mence example, i can say he also does not have a true counter. however, he is MUCH more easily dealt with by the hazardous entry and with a larger pool of pokies to check him with than garchomp. sure sure tspikes are awesome against garchomp but in general in the OU meta, SR is much more usable hence why the majority of teh people go for sr than tspikes. garchomp can switch into many more pokemons than salamence i'd haveto say (intimidate sure is nice but it is momentary and garchomp still has the natural bulk). I know you have to take certain measurements for others as well (threat list anyone haha) but for the case of garchomp, like i said, it's OVERcentralization where many people do too much in preparation for chomp
is what garchomp is doing like i said
and as you nexte are saying, that is what i am saying
it limits people from using other pokemons for only few due to garchomp in the league
@away: you don't have to give me the mence example, i can say he also does not have a true counter. however, he is MUCH more easily dealt with by the hazardous entry and with a larger pool of pokies to check him with than garchomp. sure sure tspikes are awesome against garchomp but in general in the OU meta, SR is much more usable hence why the majority of teh people go for sr than tspikes. garchomp can switch into many more pokemons than salamence i'd haveto say (intimidate sure is nice but it is momentary and garchomp still has the natural bulk). I know you have to take certain measurements for others as well (threat list anyone haha) but for the case of garchomp, like i said, it's OVERcentralization where many people do too much in preparation for chomp
Back to Deoxys-A. The biggest ways to deal with Deo-A in OU are priority moves. So if the perfectly viable sets of SDLuc, CBZor, Metagross counter Deoxys-A fine, why not drag him down into suspect too? And of course, since these priority users are basically the only way in OU to keep Deoxys-A in check, then we would probably have to load tons of steels with priority (Aqua Jet Empoleon lol) on teams in order to not get them picked off by Magnezone 1 by 1 and get swept.
TSpikes is easily removed by Poison types, you don't HAVE to go for Tspikes, go for regular spikes. Froslass does this job quite well, sets up spikes and threatens Garchomp with stab Ice Beam. I think the people that support Garchomp being Uber just happen to overexaggerate it's abilities and think that you HAVE to use OU pokemon in a standard battle.
Overcentralization is pretty much saying that people are just paranoid. Garchomp can be dealt with in the same way that Salamence is. All I see in Garchomp is a Salamence with Swords Dance and 5 more base speed and a worse movepool.
Also, there have been many changes since Garchomp was in OU, I think Garchomp is MUCH more easily handled than it was before.
Wow, a whole new page of posts practically. I'll edit stuff in as I go back over the recent stuff, if I have anything to say.
* Naxte made a great post articulating my thoughts in a different manner that might help some people more understand my point. Excellent work... and that looks to be about it. Back to your regularly scheduled post.
ARD, I didn't address your "point" directly because your "point" has absolutely no merit. How do you know "we" are preparing for it more than any other sweeper? That's just random speculation. You annoyingly responded line-for-line to deluge's post, heavily basing your arguments on Garchomp's heavy usage, which is more what I was responding toward. Usage has never been a defining point of a given pokémon's power.
And then there's... "Pretty much all forms of Garchomp can rip stuff apart, while there are only a few viable builds for the aforementioned sweepers." I mean, Garchomp isn't exactly versatile itself. Practically the only question people have when facing Garchomp is whether or not it's Choiced, which is an initial question for every offensive pokémon. "Is that Heatran Scarfed? etc." It always uses the same few attacks, it always attacks purely physically (not counting Fire Blast), it's always running Swords Dance if it isn't Choiced. It's certainly not more versatile than Salamence, who can and does do pretty much whatever it wants. Choice? Yep, might even be Specs. Setup sweep? Dragon Dance makes it tougher to revenge kill. Wallbreak? MixMence is the most popular set for a reason. It might even be using Roost to scare the bejesus out of stall teams who rely primarily on mounting residual damage to defeat it. The fact you said otherwise is completely asinine, as it's flat-out wrong. Garchomp isn't versatile at all.
Garchomp "needs" four checks? Really? Who says? You might have 2-3 checks for it on your team, which isn't unusual for a top-level physical threat. (All too many people rely solely on Blissey to check Special threats...) A large majority of the time, Sand Veil does nothing and it dies just as easily as any other sweeper. Maybe that's the problem with a lot of people, they try to play Garchomp differently than everything else when they should be playing it the exact same way. They'll need a backup plan for when Sand Veil does activate but that's not a whole lot different than making sure you have a backup plan when Gyarados flinches your Rotom-A, or Heatran burns your Salamence, or Magnezone trap-kills your Scizor. Ideally, you have redundant checks for all the top pokémon... or you run such a heavy offense that you automatically eliminate a lot of set-up threats (e.g. SD Lucario) by never giving them the chance TO set up. And if Garchomp dodges three attacks straight to sweep your overprepared team anyway, so be it. Luck happens. That's Pokémon. It's not banworthy because extreme "hax" gives it an easy sweep every 1-in-25 battles. Gyarados could've done the same damn thing and so can others. Or maybe all of those pokémon need banned...
That said, you might be correct on your "point." People probably are preparing for Garchomp more than any other sweeper. Why? If Garchomp is the single most common pokémon on Suspect, which will probably show true when we get October's usage stats, it makes perfect sense to prepare for it more than others! Seaking could be the most dangerous pokémon in the world but if it's only on 1-in-100 teams, there's no need to prepare for it; take your lumps every 100th battle, or try to cope with what you have anyway, and focus your team on beating the other 99 that have Garchomp / Latias / Gyarados instead.
* Naxte made a great post articulating my thoughts in a different manner that might help some people more understand my point. Excellent work... and that looks to be about it. Back to your regularly scheduled post.
ARD, I didn't address your "point" directly because your "point" has absolutely no merit. How do you know "we" are preparing for it more than any other sweeper? That's just random speculation. You annoyingly responded line-for-line to deluge's post, heavily basing your arguments on Garchomp's heavy usage, which is more what I was responding toward. Usage has never been a defining point of a given pokémon's power.
And then there's... "Pretty much all forms of Garchomp can rip stuff apart, while there are only a few viable builds for the aforementioned sweepers." I mean, Garchomp isn't exactly versatile itself. Practically the only question people have when facing Garchomp is whether or not it's Choiced, which is an initial question for every offensive pokémon. "Is that Heatran Scarfed? etc." It always uses the same few attacks, it always attacks purely physically (not counting Fire Blast), it's always running Swords Dance if it isn't Choiced. It's certainly not more versatile than Salamence, who can and does do pretty much whatever it wants. Choice? Yep, might even be Specs. Setup sweep? Dragon Dance makes it tougher to revenge kill. Wallbreak? MixMence is the most popular set for a reason. It might even be using Roost to scare the bejesus out of stall teams who rely primarily on mounting residual damage to defeat it. The fact you said otherwise is completely asinine, as it's flat-out wrong. Garchomp isn't versatile at all.
Garchomp "needs" four checks? Really? Who says? You might have 2-3 checks for it on your team, which isn't unusual for a top-level physical threat. (All too many people rely solely on Blissey to check Special threats...) A large majority of the time, Sand Veil does nothing and it dies just as easily as any other sweeper. Maybe that's the problem with a lot of people, they try to play Garchomp differently than everything else when they should be playing it the exact same way. They'll need a backup plan for when Sand Veil does activate but that's not a whole lot different than making sure you have a backup plan when Gyarados flinches your Rotom-A, or Heatran burns your Salamence, or Magnezone trap-kills your Scizor. Ideally, you have redundant checks for all the top pokémon... or you run such a heavy offense that you automatically eliminate a lot of set-up threats (e.g. SD Lucario) by never giving them the chance TO set up. And if Garchomp dodges three attacks straight to sweep your overprepared team anyway, so be it. Luck happens. That's Pokémon. It's not banworthy because extreme "hax" gives it an easy sweep every 1-in-25 battles. Gyarados could've done the same damn thing and so can others. Or maybe all of those pokémon need banned...
That said, you might be correct on your "point." People probably are preparing for Garchomp more than any other sweeper. Why? If Garchomp is the single most common pokémon on Suspect, which will probably show true when we get October's usage stats, it makes perfect sense to prepare for it more than others! Seaking could be the most dangerous pokémon in the world but if it's only on 1-in-100 teams, there's no need to prepare for it; take your lumps every 100th battle, or try to cope with what you have anyway, and focus your team on beating the other 99 that have Garchomp / Latias / Gyarados instead.
Or spikes, but the point is that in general SR is much more usable in the OU meta than spikes. You don't have to use OU pokemon in a standard battle, but (I think somebody talked about this in this or the prior pages) if it forces you do use those "gimmicks" or underpowering pokemons to "counter" garchomp than that's a problem. Actually, scarfCune with gimicky ev spread is also quite good against Garchomp but seriuosly who'd use that (i forgot the exact set). Overcentralization = paranoid? I don't think so. In my honest opinions, it takes place when certain pokemons are just too much for the majority of the meta to deal with.
As for teh changes since the old DP days, I agree completely. I see Scizor as the major change (not to mention outrage on mence and flygon but mence esp). However, I don't see these changes with large enough impact to make garchomp be in OU. Sure Garchomp is manageable (he was even before plat) but it's hard.
Garchomp isn't FORCING you to use "underpowering" pokemon.
Okay, ScarfCune? Seriously, you don't need to scarf Suicune to beat Garchomp. Also, I don't think using a Hail Team or any UU/NU Pokemon in OU is considered a Gimmick. And I could use that same argument you used for any other pokemon. Tons of people use random HP Fires to beat Scizor, Forretress, and Metagross. If they're causing such an uproar with HP Fire, should they not be Uber? They're forcing Gimmicky sets.
Scarfcune was actaully one of the sets that people came up with that could "counter" majority of Garchomp's sets. As for teh gimmicks, you've completely misunderstood my post. My point is that While you CAN you those UU/NU pokemon in OU as solutions against garchomp, that's it and nothing else. Overall, UU and NU pokemons are, in general, not as effective as OU pokemons in the OU meta and it'd be a horrible decision to use NU and UU pokemons in the OU so you can fight off garchomp. Seriuosly, that's similar to gimmicks in terms of ideaology. Gimmicks have their limited uses, but again they are limited and in general very ineffective in the meta as a whole.
Since I happen to like line for line responses, I'm going to do it again, regardless of whether you like it or not.
And as a comment to you saying you want to stay objective, I would refrain from using words and phrases such as "absolutely no merit", "annoyingly responded", and "completely asinine, as it's flat-out wrong" because they show that you are letting your human flaws get into it by showing no acknowledgement for the other side and by partially making at least me think that you think people who don't agree with you are automatically wrong and/or stupid.
Steels are a predominate type in the metagame, so I think this point is a little weak. Even if Scizor, Forretress, and Metagross were moved to Uber(for some unknown characteristics), steels would still be used. Pokemon like Steelix and Skarmory would see a lot more usage, simply because dragons are very common pokemon. Latias and Gengar are typically the most common users of HP Fire. Latias needs HP Fire to hit steels in general for SE damage, since it lacks a fire move. Gengar is destroyed by any priority(that affects him), it just so happens he needs HP Fire to hit the steels(who are used primarily because of the dragons). I agree with your point, however HP Fire is certainly not gimmicky by any means. That would be as crazy as saying Fire Blast on Salamence is a gimmick, which is absurd.
You are going to have to explain how Garchomp can beat Skarm, Latias, Forry, and Starmie for me. About the only thing I can think of that really could do that would be if you used Scarfchomp and predicted correctly every single time, which is well something that can be said for a ton of choiced Pokemon anyways. Unless you're going to go into "if you weaken the counters, Garchomp can sweep" in which case I laugh at you.
As Arandom Dude has stated before (and many others too, and which still remains ignored by those who think Chomp is Ou) we can see a shift in the suspect test metagame in order to adapt to new battle conditions. This is totally normal and we saw this happening as BP-Scizor, the new Rotom forms and Latias were introduced.
The main point is, that overpreparing for these new threats can completly shut them down, for example if I was paranoica about Latias, I would run a scarfed TTar with Pursuit and a Cb_scizor with Pursuit, which will guarantee a kill.
This seems to be very evident, though mayn people still don´t realize that this cannot be applied to Chomp as easily as to other threats. If I wanted to completly check Garchomp the list of pokemon I need is enormous, due to Chomp´s incredible ability to have the right move for every check in this metagame.
Also if you mispredict against let´s say Mence thinking it is mixed and you go to your Vaporeon to take the Meteor, and it dances in your face, that doesn´t mean game for you, because Mence will be at +1 and must Outrage now.
But what happens if you mispredict against Chomp, which will happen very often, since ALL sets are viable and deadly, the main difference to said Scarfed Mence or Yache Mence.
We are battling under normal battle conditions, Chomp switches in, after you killed something with pursuit(this scenario is a very common one so I picked this)
Now your assuming it is SD, might be lo, might be Haban, might be yache.
So what will you switch in? You decide to send in your most bulky force first, because it can take all hits, that aren´t named Outrage: Swampert. Chomp uses EQ and the damage makes you think it is scarfed, also Chomp switches while your Ice Beaming.
The battle goes on, and again Chomp manages to get a free switch in due to it´s excellent typing and resistance to SR. You decide to go to Swampert which has been weakened by EQ. Now Chomp uses SD and kills your Pert with EQ. Damn not scarfed you think. But wait you have a Latias under your wings, so GO LATIAS lets hope no miss..or wait it might be Haban, I could go to Starmie and Ice beam it.. but then again it might be Yache. Ok let´s try Ice Beam.. so GO STARMIE and you Ice Beam Chomp..
and it wasn´t Yache but had some special defense and a salac berry and kills your Starmie and Latias. And there are another hundred of possible scenarios how Chomp will manage to sweep three theoratical checks, something no other OU is capable of.
The main point is, that overpreparing for these new threats can completly shut them down, for example if I was paranoica about Latias, I would run a scarfed TTar with Pursuit and a Cb_scizor with Pursuit, which will guarantee a kill.
This seems to be very evident, though mayn people still don´t realize that this cannot be applied to Chomp as easily as to other threats. If I wanted to completly check Garchomp the list of pokemon I need is enormous, due to Chomp´s incredible ability to have the right move for every check in this metagame.
Also if you mispredict against let´s say Mence thinking it is mixed and you go to your Vaporeon to take the Meteor, and it dances in your face, that doesn´t mean game for you, because Mence will be at +1 and must Outrage now.
But what happens if you mispredict against Chomp, which will happen very often, since ALL sets are viable and deadly, the main difference to said Scarfed Mence or Yache Mence.
We are battling under normal battle conditions, Chomp switches in, after you killed something with pursuit(this scenario is a very common one so I picked this)
Now your assuming it is SD, might be lo, might be Haban, might be yache.
So what will you switch in? You decide to send in your most bulky force first, because it can take all hits, that aren´t named Outrage: Swampert. Chomp uses EQ and the damage makes you think it is scarfed, also Chomp switches while your Ice Beaming.
The battle goes on, and again Chomp manages to get a free switch in due to it´s excellent typing and resistance to SR. You decide to go to Swampert which has been weakened by EQ. Now Chomp uses SD and kills your Pert with EQ. Damn not scarfed you think. But wait you have a Latias under your wings, so GO LATIAS lets hope no miss..or wait it might be Haban, I could go to Starmie and Ice beam it.. but then again it might be Yache. Ok let´s try Ice Beam.. so GO STARMIE and you Ice Beam Chomp..
and it wasn´t Yache but had some special defense and a salac berry and kills your Starmie and Latias. And there are another hundred of possible scenarios how Chomp will manage to sweep three theoratical checks, something no other OU is capable of.
Chii, since when does a decent player need more than 2-3 Pokemon to check Garchomp? I don't. I've never had a problem with Chomp and I used to carry 2-3 checks, not a page long list of checks. What the hell are you talking about with Mence and overprediction? A Mence at +1 Atk and Spd could mean game over just as much as mispredicting against Chomp. That "point" made absolutely no sense. Now let's move on to your senario. To me, it looks like a distorted puzzle. Why can't the player in the senario make up his mind or make a decent guess? Is he mentally challenged? Has he never played the game before? Now, I'd like to give my own senario.
Player One's Scizor Pursuits a Gengar and gives Player Two's Garchomp a free switch in. Player One switches to defensive Zapdos as Garchomp Swords Dances. Garchomp uses Dragon Claw. It doesn't OHKO Zapdos. Zapdos hits Garchomp with HP (Ice). Garchomp's Yache berry saves it. Player One switches back to Scizor and lives a +2 Dragon Claw. Scizor uses Bullet Punch. Garchomp faints.
This is a completely viable senario which illistrates the fact that Garchomp, even under good circumstances, does not guarantee a kill or run through a team.
Player One's Scizor Pursuits a Gengar and gives Player Two's Garchomp a free switch in. Player One switches to defensive Zapdos as Garchomp Swords Dances. Garchomp uses Dragon Claw. It doesn't OHKO Zapdos. Zapdos hits Garchomp with HP (Ice). Garchomp's Yache berry saves it. Player One switches back to Scizor and lives a +2 Dragon Claw. Scizor uses Bullet Punch. Garchomp faints.
This is a completely viable senario which illistrates the fact that Garchomp, even under good circumstances, does not guarantee a kill or run through a team.
Ferrari, stop putting words in my mouth please. The fact that Chomp is a beast has nothing to do with a player´s experience. And if you don´t get swept by it, you either haven´t faced Arandomdude´s Chomp yet, or every member of your team has a super effective move or can phaze, which means overcentralization.
The Zapdos in your example is Ohkoed by Outrage(edit:under common battle conditions-SR) just by the way, which means Chomp will still have its berry, which might be Haban or Yache.
The Zapdos in your example is Ohkoed by Outrage(edit:under common battle conditions-SR) just by the way, which means Chomp will still have its berry, which might be Haban or Yache.
How am I putting words in your mouth? Garchomp being "a beast" does have to do with experience. If you're inexperienced you won't know how to deal with it in certain situations, and since when does anyone care about ARD's Chomp? Oh, and if that Garchomp I mentioned was running Outrage it's even easier to revenge kill with the likes of Metagross, Scizor, Latias, Gengar, Heatran, and others.
Apparently Kay did.
Garchomp is an extremely difficult pokemon to switch in against. In fact there is not a single commonly used (say top 20) pokemon that can switch in against the standard SD yachechomp with any confidence. Nothing can come in on both dragon claw and SD and force out Garchomp without being maimed in the process even one time with SR up. Salamence is also impossible to check but it is much harder to keep alive for obvious reasons. No other pokemon (not lucario,gyarados, tyranitar, latias etc) is that hard to stop.
Stepping away from the Garchomp feud that this thread sponges, I would briefly like to share my initial suspect experience. I started playing yesterday night, and I'm currently at #10 on suspect ladder.
Garchomp is a menace (then again I could say that for a lot of mons, no?) - it is extremely difficult to switch into, but it's also difficult for it to find a room to set up and actually sweep. Rarely does Garchomp kill off more than one Pokemon on my team, since my team has multiple checks against it (yet these pokemon achieve much more than just check Garchomp - think about it like checking Salamence in OU or something). Sand Veil can get really annoying, though. but it hasn't activated at a crucial point.
My own Garchomp also suffers from being checked quite a bit. I've been able to sweep a few times with it, and it's pretty darn good. It is slightly better than Lucario in terms of sweeping IMO, but really not THAT much better despite his higher bulk. Sand Veil sometimes works for me, but except for that one match where Rey tried to eliminate me (>_>), it hasn't activated at any significant times.
Latias is strangely tougher to fend off than Latios was during Stage 3 v1, despite my initial prediction. Her slightly higher defense allows her to survive a Bullet Punch that would otherwise kill Latios. To add to that, they started using HP Fire -_-. But aside from that, Latias isn't really any different from her brother unlike what I've been told so many times >_<
Manaphy- the only suspect I haven't used thus far. It is having a hard time finding a time to set up with Latias around, but it's next in line after Garchomp in terms of deadliness -if- -it- -sets- -up. Manaphy is less threatening than Latias otherwise.
That's all for now. We'll see how it turns out later...
Garchomp is a menace (then again I could say that for a lot of mons, no?) - it is extremely difficult to switch into, but it's also difficult for it to find a room to set up and actually sweep. Rarely does Garchomp kill off more than one Pokemon on my team, since my team has multiple checks against it (yet these pokemon achieve much more than just check Garchomp - think about it like checking Salamence in OU or something). Sand Veil can get really annoying, though. but it hasn't activated at a crucial point.
My own Garchomp also suffers from being checked quite a bit. I've been able to sweep a few times with it, and it's pretty darn good. It is slightly better than Lucario in terms of sweeping IMO, but really not THAT much better despite his higher bulk. Sand Veil sometimes works for me, but except for that one match where Rey tried to eliminate me (>_>), it hasn't activated at any significant times.
Latias is strangely tougher to fend off than Latios was during Stage 3 v1, despite my initial prediction. Her slightly higher defense allows her to survive a Bullet Punch that would otherwise kill Latios. To add to that, they started using HP Fire -_-. But aside from that, Latias isn't really any different from her brother unlike what I've been told so many times >_<
Manaphy- the only suspect I haven't used thus far. It is having a hard time finding a time to set up with Latias around, but it's next in line after Garchomp in terms of deadliness -if- -it- -sets- -up. Manaphy is less threatening than Latias otherwise.
That's all for now. We'll see how it turns out later...
Jibaku, your experience seems similar to mine. However, I attempted to abuse Sand Veil with a Sub + Brightpowder strategy, sometimes it worked, sometime not.
But, I have a question. In order to achieve voting rights do you have to play with all of the suspects? I played with Garchomp in roughly 15-25 battles, but I didn't use any other suspects. Is that enough to vote?
But, I have a question. In order to achieve voting rights do you have to play with all of the suspects? I played with Garchomp in roughly 15-25 battles, but I didn't use any other suspects. Is that enough to vote?
After some more testing, here is my new opinion on the suspects:
Garchomp- Its amazingly threatening, and like sweepers such as Gyardos, Lucario, Salamance, which require set-up, if it gets that turn, it can destroy teams. However, so can Salamance, and so can Lucario. Its top-tier OU stuff, and i'm so unlucky in the fact that I havnt had a single sand veil hax in my 50+ battles i've had.
Latias- By god, the CM version with HP Fire and Recover is insane. It's got more sweeping potential than Garchomp, given that it sets up well. It also functions as a great revenge killer for weakened Chomp's with Draco Meteor, along with revenging almost everything else in general.
Manaphy- Manaphy has truely disapointted me, I find it hard to use one in a team, it requires so much support, and without rain or rest-talk, it gets worn down so easily. The CM version is an inferior CroCune, but the Tail Glow set works amazingly, if it can get a turn to set-up. I've used a Sub-Tail Glow Manaphy in a team, and it never got more than one kill. I feel that in a rain dance team, Manaphy could be amazing, but like all rain dance sweepers, they're deadly in the rain, but not very useful in any other weather.
Just my two cents, anyway
Garchomp- Its amazingly threatening, and like sweepers such as Gyardos, Lucario, Salamance, which require set-up, if it gets that turn, it can destroy teams. However, so can Salamance, and so can Lucario. Its top-tier OU stuff, and i'm so unlucky in the fact that I havnt had a single sand veil hax in my 50+ battles i've had.
Latias- By god, the CM version with HP Fire and Recover is insane. It's got more sweeping potential than Garchomp, given that it sets up well. It also functions as a great revenge killer for weakened Chomp's with Draco Meteor, along with revenging almost everything else in general.
Manaphy- Manaphy has truely disapointted me, I find it hard to use one in a team, it requires so much support, and without rain or rest-talk, it gets worn down so easily. The CM version is an inferior CroCune, but the Tail Glow set works amazingly, if it can get a turn to set-up. I've used a Sub-Tail Glow Manaphy in a team, and it never got more than one kill. I feel that in a rain dance team, Manaphy could be amazing, but like all rain dance sweepers, they're deadly in the rain, but not very useful in any other weather.
Just my two cents, anyway