I think one major factor that many people aren't taking into consideration is the changes in the metagame from DP to Plat/HGSS. Garchomp is not what it used to be in OU during DP. Just about every top OU Pokemon (plus others) got some sort of enhancement since DP (ex. Outrage Salamence and BP Scizor). This means that there are more potent threats out there now. By this I mean that Garchomp's fame as a powerful sweeper has been water down, to some degree, by the increase in other powerful threats. There are also more Pokemon now that can threaten/check Garchomp. I feel like this needs to be taken into account.
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Suspect Test Process Stage Three - Version 2.0!
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It is being taken into account. Garchomp was initially banned by a landslide vote (17-4) because almost everyone agreed it was too overcentralizing and powerful. In Stage 3-1, the vote was far closer, being 44-41.
Notice that all of those pokemon had huge usages though. I am not talking about their position on the usage rankings, but their actual usage. Bronzong may have only been ninth, but he had the same usage as Scizor in this Metagame, and look how important Scizor is!
Gyarados still has third place, but his usage has dropped by around 15%! That is a huge margin. Garchomp overcentralized the metagame, and it is shown by the fact that less pokemon were more often and most had good reason as they helped handle Garchomp. That is why the top 10 pokemon used back then has such high usage. We know this is true because it balanced itself out a few weeks afterward, without lower average usages and a larger diversity of pokemon used.
I am talking about Gengar (Scarf + Hp Ice), Gyarados (intimidate plus immunity to Earthquake and the ability to take a +1 Outrage with bulk), Metagross (could take outrages and hit back), Lucario (aura sphere and extremespeed helped to finish off Garchomp), Deoxys-S (Fast Ice Beamer), Heatran (could take outrages and hit back with powerful special attacks) and Bronzong (resisted the Rock / Dragon / Ground combo and hit back for good damage). Whether or not Deoxys is banned now is irrelevant, what matters is, look how over centralised the metagame is to beat Garchomp! Usage stats of these pokemon were waaay above what they were just two months after Garchomp was banned. It allowed the metagame to rebalance itself and become more diverse, it made other strategies possible and gave people more freedom.
I think Garchomp will have just the same effect on this metagame, give it just a couple of months after it is brought back and expect to see the same pattern.
In stage 3-1, Latios was around, as an extra check to Garchomp, outspeeding and OHKO'ing with Draco Meteor, as was Skymin, which could flinchhax to death any Chomp that was without a Scarf, before finishing with Seed Flare.
In the previous suspect test, neither of these were around. Garchomp ended up Uber by a massive margin.
In the previous suspect test, there wasn't the 'Free Garchomp' people, 100% set against Garchomp being Uber. There are those... most of them have a link to a thread in their sig, and state the same facts over and over again here... even when they've been beaten to death. This skewed the results somewhat, because they are not going to vote Garchomp Uber, no matter how powerful it is.
In this suspect test, there are 2 less checks to Garchomp than there were in 3-1, and both of these checks turned out to be Ubers.
The latter points to Garchomp being voted Uber by an even larger amount this time... unless something goes dreadfully wrong with logic, or someone found a new counter all of a sudden.
There are not many new checks to Garchomp either. Scizor? Not with BP struggling to 2HKO. Latias? Tyrainiatar will just be used more, to start up sand, and trap Latias, hence making Garchomp even more broken with Sand Veil. Salamence? Garchomp outspeeds and OHKO's and Salamance can't switch in, even with Intimidate.
EDIT: Raikaria sneaking in responses.
It's not just Latios and Skymin. Bullet Punch Scizor didn't exist back when Garchomp was banned. Latias wasn't OU yet either. Those are two great checks to Garchomp. Flygon and Salamence have Outrage now, giving them a strong relative power boost compared to when only Garchomp (and Dragonite) had it. Blagh blagh blagh. Overall, the shifts in the metagame haven't done Garchomp any favors. If it was reintroduced into OU proper, it could only be weaker than it used to be. And I've always been against Garchomp having Uber status. ;[
The actual usage numbers don't really matter at all, it's the comparative amounts that matter. The current #50, Crobat, sees about 1/10 of the usage of #1; the #50 in August 2008, Kingdra, saw about 1/10 of then-#1 Garchomp's usage. (If anything, OU would've been much larger back then if the current way of determining tiers was applied.) Current #1 Scizor enjoys a higher relative use over #2 Salamence than Garchomp ever had over its contemporaries. So on and so forth.
You're really fishing here, aren't you? I mean really, Heatran is a good check against Garchomp because it can tank Outrage? Anyone else here would call you a fool for suggesting Heatran as a viable Garchomp check. Yeah, generic Steel pokémon can tank Dragon attacks. Generic Flyers and Levitators can avoid Earthquake and generic faster pokémon or priority user can threaten Garchomp offensively too. Sorry, but people didn't (and don't) use Heatran and Lucario because they beat Garchomp. -_- Dumbest post in this thread right there, folks.
It's not just Latios and Skymin. Bullet Punch Scizor didn't exist back when Garchomp was banned. Latias wasn't OU yet either. Those are two great checks to Garchomp. Flygon and Salamence have Outrage now, giving them a strong relative power boost compared to when only Garchomp (and Dragonite) had it. Blagh blagh blagh. Overall, the shifts in the metagame haven't done Garchomp any favors. If it was reintroduced into OU proper, it could only be weaker than it used to be. And I've always been against Garchomp having Uber status. ;[
The actual usage numbers don't really matter at all, it's the comparative amounts that matter. The current #50, Crobat, sees about 1/10 of the usage of #1; the #50 in August 2008, Kingdra, saw about 1/10 of then-#1 Garchomp's usage. (If anything, OU would've been much larger back then if the current way of determining tiers was applied.) Current #1 Scizor enjoys a higher relative use over #2 Salamence than Garchomp ever had over its contemporaries. So on and so forth.
You're really fishing here, aren't you? I mean really, Heatran is a good check against Garchomp because it can tank Outrage? Anyone else here would call you a fool for suggesting Heatran as a viable Garchomp check. Yeah, generic Steel pokémon can tank Dragon attacks. Generic Flyers and Levitators can avoid Earthquake and generic faster pokémon or priority user can threaten Garchomp offensively too. Sorry, but people didn't (and don't) use Heatran and Lucario because they beat Garchomp. -_- Dumbest post in this thread right there, folks.
Flaming is bad...
Now, onto the issue of useages, The fact that several of these pokemon, that ARE Chomp checks, have fallen so badly, is a sign of the centralistion. Gengar fell before Scizor's Bullet Punching began. Gyarados has fallen 15%, as stated before. Salamance has risen dramatically, whereas, before, it was actually quite low, due to being outclassed by Garchomp.
Heatran and Lucario DID make good revenge killers. Scarf Heatran's Dragon Pulse/HP Ice was perfect for defeating an Outrageing Chomp, especially as Latias was Uber back then. Lucario's not only as much of a pain then with it's SD set as it is now, but was the closest thing to Scizor back then, it's ExtremeSpeed picking off a weakned Garchomp. Often, when faced with a Chomp, especially Swords Dance Chomp, someone would deal as much damage as they could, then bring in a Revenge Killer, such as Heatran (Scarfed Dragon Pulses), Gengar (Scarfed HP Ice/Shadow Ball), Deoxys-E (Ice Beam), or Lucario (E-Speed), to finish it off.
Seriously, look beyond the simple fact that you want Garchomp OU, and your bias (You're the one who started the 'Free Garchomp' movement!), and actually consider the plausability of other arguments, instead of flaming them. Especially as this particular post was in responce to yours, and quite frankly, proved you wrong on the overcentralisation factor.
Sorry for the two quick posts people, just that I wanted to stop Mr.E as soon as I saw this flame at the end of his post.
EDIT:
To your responces to my post, did you ignore my end of the post? Stateing how the new counters are doomed?
Tyranitar beats Latias and traps it, while setting up Sand, Scizor struggles a 2HKO, especially with a few EV's in Defence (SD dosen't need full Attack to wreck OU), and is OHKO'ed in return. Flygon loses to Scarfchomp, and Salamance is beaten easily, unless you're gonna run ScarfMance with Outrage.
If you want to keep arguing about new checks, then by all means, I'll explain it viva PM, instead of cluttering this thread up.
When it comes to being bias about a Pokemon I think everyone is to blame. We all have our opinions and reasons for these opinions, and these opinions are unlikely to change. I for one have never had a problem with Garchomp. I cannot remember a time when I lost or won a battle just based on Garchomp. This is a major reason why I support Garchomp in OU.
I also don't think that you are looking at this issue without bias. Just look at the discussions that have taken place in this thread; most either end in stalemate or point to Garchomp being OU. If you yourself were not bias, you would see this and at least consider that Garchomp may be OU.
probably soley due to scizors bullet punch and latias. What else has changed since then?
I haven´t had too many problems with Garchomp either, but this is only because every member in my team can hurt it very badly.
If this is not centralizing I don´t know what you guys think of overcentralization.
Apart from that, Scizor and Latias being decent Garchomp checks is fairly ridiculous.
Scizor barely 2hkoes and never 2hkoes a bulky Chomp, while Chomp 2hkoes/ohkoes back, depending on its moves. Latias can´t ohko haban Chomp and can´t swtich into one of its stab moves. Also TTar often comes in tandem with sd Chompo and will easily remove Latias.
If this is not centralizing I don´t know what you guys think of overcentralization.
Apart from that, Scizor and Latias being decent Garchomp checks is fairly ridiculous.
Scizor barely 2hkoes and never 2hkoes a bulky Chomp, while Chomp 2hkoes/ohkoes back, depending on its moves. Latias can´t ohko haban Chomp and can´t swtich into one of its stab moves. Also TTar often comes in tandem with sd Chompo and will easily remove Latias.
This is true. Not just pokemon but we as humans obviously will always hold our "own" opinions and thus we will always be biased. However, that does not mean that we shouldn't try not to be biased as much as possible. While it is true that one can avoid being swept by Garchomp by playing cautiously and smart, many people by far would also state that Garchomp will force one to have few checks in one's team for preparation against our dear Garchomp. Also, you say that the majority state Garchomp to be OU. However, if you count the number of people leaning towards UBER against the numbers for OU, you will notice that the majority of the people in this thread will say Garchomp seems to fit the UBER more than the OU environment. I actually see only a handful of people saying Garchomp is OU. You, Mr.E, and few others.
Well, you're right that more people seem to think Garchomp is Uber. However, I feel that the arguments brought forward supporting Garchomp in OU are stronger and more persuasive than those supporting Garchomp in Ubers.
By the way, when is the vote? Or has it not been decided.
By the way, when is the vote? Or has it not been decided.
Not too sure about the voting, but I think it should be soon since they did say the voting will start around this time but meh...
Actually I can't say if the argument for OU is more convincing than the one for UBER since only a handful of people would argue for it and the rest would just break it down. Unless something dramatic happened, my prediction is that Garchomp will be voted UBER with much difference between the number of votes for UBER and OU. This is primarily because Skymin and (esp) latios aren't present in the current ladder. But we will see.
Sadly, I expect nothing else but for Garchomp to be voted Uber by a greater margin for the very same reason. I don't suspect a whole lot of people were ever planning to change their vote anyway but maybe a few will be pushed to Uber without the threat of Skymin as an additional check. (Latios is replaceable by Latias anyway, except on "double dragon" teams.)
Maybe a proper argument can sway people too, though. Hopefully, my facts can reach more people. :( But it's a shame I have to continually shoot down the same bogus garbage against Garchomp over and over again, such as somebody "proving" the centralization Garchomp caused in the past by pointing out that Heatran and Metagross are used primarily as Garchomp checks... and then other people actually agreeing with them. How about you come back at me with some real evidence, instead of making shit up like, "Gyarados still has third place, but his usage has dropped by around 15%! That is a huge margin. Garchomp overcentralized the metagame..." Who says that's a huge margin? How does that prove Garchomp is overcentralizing, especially when a majority of the list is made up of pokémon traditionally considered to be weak against Garchomp? Using emperical evidence and real math to refute such a baseless emotional appeal, I actually proved the exact opposite was true and his argument was wrong. Hipmonlee is a good role model for your side of the argument.
You know, we have detailed stats from back then too. Hidden Power was only used on Gengar 28.2% of the time on it and we don't even know how often the type used was actually Ice. Two-thirds of Gyarados used no Defense EVs and minimal HP. That's not the type of Gyarados you're using if you're looking for it to be a Garchomp check, it's not bulky enough to take a +1 hit. Do you think people really used Lucario, Metagross, Heatran because they're all great Garchomp checks? This argument was dead and beaten the moment Tarquin flimsily attempted to paint every single pokémon in the top ten usage list as a tentative Garchomp check, even the half of the list that has no business fighting it and most not using their optimal Garchomp-countering moveset(s). That is bias. If Garchomp was that easy to beat anyway, well then that doesn't sound very uber at all.
I've objectively combed over the facts and I did my homework when writing my essay. The comparative stuff in these past few posts is new even to me, as I've never gone through the past usage stats before that thoroughly (beyond knowing that Scizor is relatively more overused than Garchomp ever was). Though it would be folly of me to state that I am completely unbiased (I'm still human), I'm hardly a biased individual. The evidence simply doesn't point toward Garchomp being uber. OU was no smaller back then, just more top-heavy, and there's a whole lot of caveats behind its whole "sweeping effortlessly" thing people like to talk about. (You have to use T-Tar/Hippo for Sand Stream support, then dodge multiple attacks on a 20% chance each. Your opponent must also not have Skarmory, Bronzong, nor laid Toxic Spikes.) Sorry, I just don't see it. I don't see it on paper and I haven't seen it in practice... except a couple days ago, when it dodged three attacks straight for the first time ever against me. :P But hey, it was bound to happen eventually and lots of sweepers do the same thing. T-Tar defense dropped my Suicune switching in, ugh. Gyarados flinched my Celebi, sigh. Starmie froze my Zapdos, gg. Welcome to Pokémon. That's just how we roll.
Maybe a proper argument can sway people too, though. Hopefully, my facts can reach more people. :( But it's a shame I have to continually shoot down the same bogus garbage against Garchomp over and over again, such as somebody "proving" the centralization Garchomp caused in the past by pointing out that Heatran and Metagross are used primarily as Garchomp checks... and then other people actually agreeing with them. How about you come back at me with some real evidence, instead of making shit up like, "Gyarados still has third place, but his usage has dropped by around 15%! That is a huge margin. Garchomp overcentralized the metagame..." Who says that's a huge margin? How does that prove Garchomp is overcentralizing, especially when a majority of the list is made up of pokémon traditionally considered to be weak against Garchomp? Using emperical evidence and real math to refute such a baseless emotional appeal, I actually proved the exact opposite was true and his argument was wrong. Hipmonlee is a good role model for your side of the argument.
You know, we have detailed stats from back then too. Hidden Power was only used on Gengar 28.2% of the time on it and we don't even know how often the type used was actually Ice. Two-thirds of Gyarados used no Defense EVs and minimal HP. That's not the type of Gyarados you're using if you're looking for it to be a Garchomp check, it's not bulky enough to take a +1 hit. Do you think people really used Lucario, Metagross, Heatran because they're all great Garchomp checks? This argument was dead and beaten the moment Tarquin flimsily attempted to paint every single pokémon in the top ten usage list as a tentative Garchomp check, even the half of the list that has no business fighting it and most not using their optimal Garchomp-countering moveset(s). That is bias. If Garchomp was that easy to beat anyway, well then that doesn't sound very uber at all.
I've objectively combed over the facts and I did my homework when writing my essay. The comparative stuff in these past few posts is new even to me, as I've never gone through the past usage stats before that thoroughly (beyond knowing that Scizor is relatively more overused than Garchomp ever was). Though it would be folly of me to state that I am completely unbiased (I'm still human), I'm hardly a biased individual. The evidence simply doesn't point toward Garchomp being uber. OU was no smaller back then, just more top-heavy, and there's a whole lot of caveats behind its whole "sweeping effortlessly" thing people like to talk about. (You have to use T-Tar/Hippo for Sand Stream support, then dodge multiple attacks on a 20% chance each. Your opponent must also not have Skarmory, Bronzong, nor laid Toxic Spikes.) Sorry, I just don't see it. I don't see it on paper and I haven't seen it in practice... except a couple days ago, when it dodged three attacks straight for the first time ever against me. :P But hey, it was bound to happen eventually and lots of sweepers do the same thing. T-Tar defense dropped my Suicune switching in, ugh. Gyarados flinched my Celebi, sigh. Starmie froze my Zapdos, gg. Welcome to Pokémon. That's just how we roll.
I think part of the reason Garchomp doesn't seem so powerful is because you are consciously or subconsciously making it so pretty much almost all of your guys can take him out, everything is a bulky steel, has a powerful dragon/ice attack, etc. It's like if Deoxys-A were stuffed into suspect and didn't seem that rigged because everybody had BP-Meta, BP-Scizor, ES-Lucario, etc etc. Obviously Deoxys is Uber because of those rediculous sweeping stats.
I've been looking over some old teams of mine, more standard, non-centralized teams, that had to deal with more threats than just Garchomp- Salamence, Gyarados, Lucario, etc. What I found was that I had 2-3 shaky checks, mostly in the form of Swampert, Toxic Spikes, and Scarf Latias. In other words, I would have gotten destroyed by a well made team using Garchomp.
Put Garchomp in OU, what happens? I bet he will pass Scizor for at least a few months, and cause the centralization that he is causing in Suspect. AFAIK, we don't like this centralization, especially since we are already seeing a lot of centralization around steels and dragons.
I've been looking over some old teams of mine, more standard, non-centralized teams, that had to deal with more threats than just Garchomp- Salamence, Gyarados, Lucario, etc. What I found was that I had 2-3 shaky checks, mostly in the form of Swampert, Toxic Spikes, and Scarf Latias. In other words, I would have gotten destroyed by a well made team using Garchomp.
Put Garchomp in OU, what happens? I bet he will pass Scizor for at least a few months, and cause the centralization that he is causing in Suspect. AFAIK, we don't like this centralization, especially since we are already seeing a lot of centralization around steels and dragons.
So if a Pokemon passes Scizor in usage it's Uber?
It's it just me or are some of these arguments irrelevant, not to mention speculative?
Is it that some people have decided Garchomp is Uber for reasons they'd rather not state?
DD Salamence already 1-2HKOs most of the metagame after a turn of setup so Chomp is not unique in that regard.
Scizor already has astronomical usage and there's no evidence Garchomp will surpass him on the level he currently surpasses everything else especially since he helps check Garchomp, Latias and Salamence.
I think we are finding that Garchomp does not consistently prove itself overpowered in the Suspect metagame hence the red herrings.
Someone even argued that Garchomp only fails to sweep you because you build your team with Garchomp in mind...well duh!
Garchomp is in the league of the other powerful Dragons - Latias and Salamence (attack of Metagross and SpA of Latias!) - and fears similar attacks.
Do you prepare yourself for these things or do you expect to beat them by sheer luck?
Furthermore, is there evidence that Garchomp has invited Steels more so than Latias?
IMO, if Garchomp were clearly Uber it would be evident enough to make resorting to theorymon, dubious statistical inferences, and such assorted red herrings unnecessary.
Excuse me for saying, but what I see is more fishing for reasons to support a predetermined Uber vote for Garchomp and less affirmation that it is unstoppable in Suspect.
So I've not been convinced by anything I've heard or seen personally when playing against Garchomp.
It's it just me or are some of these arguments irrelevant, not to mention speculative?
Is it that some people have decided Garchomp is Uber for reasons they'd rather not state?
DD Salamence already 1-2HKOs most of the metagame after a turn of setup so Chomp is not unique in that regard.
Scizor already has astronomical usage and there's no evidence Garchomp will surpass him on the level he currently surpasses everything else especially since he helps check Garchomp, Latias and Salamence.
I think we are finding that Garchomp does not consistently prove itself overpowered in the Suspect metagame hence the red herrings.
Someone even argued that Garchomp only fails to sweep you because you build your team with Garchomp in mind...well duh!
Garchomp is in the league of the other powerful Dragons - Latias and Salamence (attack of Metagross and SpA of Latias!) - and fears similar attacks.
Do you prepare yourself for these things or do you expect to beat them by sheer luck?
Furthermore, is there evidence that Garchomp has invited Steels more so than Latias?
IMO, if Garchomp were clearly Uber it would be evident enough to make resorting to theorymon, dubious statistical inferences, and such assorted red herrings unnecessary.
Excuse me for saying, but what I see is more fishing for reasons to support a predetermined Uber vote for Garchomp and less affirmation that it is unstoppable in Suspect.
So I've not been convinced by anything I've heard or seen personally when playing against Garchomp.
So I'm just going to try and make what I was saying before a lot clearer. We do not see the power of Garchomp because we are preparing more it more than we prepare for any other sweeper currently in OU, with good reason.
who would actually run haban garchomp in ou? that just leaves it open to a number of threats like hp ice jolteon, weavile, mamoswine and various bulky waters. People run it in ubers because dragons are everywhere, and palkia and dialga are both neutral to ice.
I had a whole super-long post typed up responding to ARD but I felt the most important part was just this one bit.
For the most part, OU is exactly the same as it was before and after Garchomp left, aside the addition of Latias from Uber and Platinum giving us BP Scizor and Rotom-A formes.
Usage pattern remains the same. Garchomp was the clear #1. There was a sharp decrease in usage as you went down to #2 Gengar, then to #3 Gyarados. Usage leveled off after that, steadily decreasing until we arbitrarily cut it off to denote where UU starts. OU was a lot bigger then, though.
Now, Scizor is the clear #1. There's a sharp decrease in usage as you go down to #2 Salamence. Usage levels off after that, steadily decreasing until we arbitrarily cut it off around #50, where we start UU. The scale has changed, instead of leveling off from 54->35 we level off from 32->21 now, but the pattern is the same: a top pokémon or two far above the rest but otherwise very balanced.
Individual pokémon usage largely remains the same. Gengar still enjoys a lofty spot on the usage list, though Rotom-A has now supplanted it as the most common Ghost. Gyarados is still #3 in usage. Other top pokémon, like Heatran and Metagross and Tyranitar, have shifted around a little bit but all remain in top positions. Usage fluctuates more as you leave the Top 10-15 or so but Garchomp's removal from OU is just one of many major changes to the metagame that could have caused such shifts. (Others include the Latias and Platinum additions.)
Some shifts are obvious, like Platinum giving Scizor the strongest priority move in the game. Some things we can only speculate over the myriad of possibilities why, like Smeargle's hefty rise over time or Spiritomb dropping like a rock. Maybe Garchomp's banishment is a big reason why Empoleon rose so much but it makes no sense if we're talking about Heracross's imminent drop to UU, which some speculate is largely due to Scizor's emergence as the premier offensive Bug. Yet, Dusknoir has always hovered around 30 in usage and the addition of Rotom-A hasn't changed that. Who the hell knows? What I do know is that the removal of Garchomp didn't cause anything out of the ordinary to happen. That probably means that there wasn't anything special about Garchomp to begin with.
For the most part, OU is exactly the same as it was before and after Garchomp left, aside the addition of Latias from Uber and Platinum giving us BP Scizor and Rotom-A formes.
Usage pattern remains the same. Garchomp was the clear #1. There was a sharp decrease in usage as you went down to #2 Gengar, then to #3 Gyarados. Usage leveled off after that, steadily decreasing until we arbitrarily cut it off to denote where UU starts. OU was a lot bigger then, though.
Now, Scizor is the clear #1. There's a sharp decrease in usage as you go down to #2 Salamence. Usage levels off after that, steadily decreasing until we arbitrarily cut it off around #50, where we start UU. The scale has changed, instead of leveling off from 54->35 we level off from 32->21 now, but the pattern is the same: a top pokémon or two far above the rest but otherwise very balanced.
Individual pokémon usage largely remains the same. Gengar still enjoys a lofty spot on the usage list, though Rotom-A has now supplanted it as the most common Ghost. Gyarados is still #3 in usage. Other top pokémon, like Heatran and Metagross and Tyranitar, have shifted around a little bit but all remain in top positions. Usage fluctuates more as you leave the Top 10-15 or so but Garchomp's removal from OU is just one of many major changes to the metagame that could have caused such shifts. (Others include the Latias and Platinum additions.)
Some shifts are obvious, like Platinum giving Scizor the strongest priority move in the game. Some things we can only speculate over the myriad of possibilities why, like Smeargle's hefty rise over time or Spiritomb dropping like a rock. Maybe Garchomp's banishment is a big reason why Empoleon rose so much but it makes no sense if we're talking about Heracross's imminent drop to UU, which some speculate is largely due to Scizor's emergence as the premier offensive Bug. Yet, Dusknoir has always hovered around 30 in usage and the addition of Rotom-A hasn't changed that. Who the hell knows? What I do know is that the removal of Garchomp didn't cause anything out of the ordinary to happen. That probably means that there wasn't anything special about Garchomp to begin with.
Firstly, let's do some more comparisions of 'Then and Now' considering you decided to bring up move useage:
In all cases, the first entry of a move is pre-Garchomp banning, and the second is post.
Gyarados: Ice Fang: 47.2%
Gyarados: Ice Fang: 27.5%
Gyarados: Stone Edge: 44.5%
Gyarados: Stone Edge: 54.9%
Even with Latias being hit harder by Ice Fang than any other move Gyarados carries, and Salamance being hit just as hard as Garchomp ever was, it has dropped dramatically in use. On the other hand, the ever unreliable Stone Edge, which Garchomp happened to get a free switch-in on, use to be used less than Ice Fang. Look at it now.
Score 1 for Centralisation.
Note: Gengar is unreliable, as one of it's most common moves, Hyponysis, was nerfed down to 60% accuarcy. I have included Hypnoysis to show this:
Gengar: Hypnosis: 59.5%
Gegar: Hypnosis: 14.5%
As for Hidden Power, one can assume the majority of it is Ice, for several reasons:
1: Scizor was not as used back then
2: Garchomp was the most used pokemon
3: Focus Blast deals with most steels, HP Fire deals with most Steels. Genger had 4MSS even worse back then.
Gengar: Focus Blast: 72.1%
Gengar: Focus Blast: 64.3%
It's a fair statement to assume, due to coverage, a lower use of Focus Blast raises the use of Hidden Power Fire. Especially when Gengar's previously 4th most common move is less used, yet Focus Blast still manages to drop.
Gengar: Hidden Power [All]: 28.2%
Gengar: Hidden Power [Ice]: 13.2%
Gengar: Hidden Power [Fire]: 21.4%
4 moveslot syndrome has lessened with Gengar over Platinum, so Hidden Power is used overall, more. However, the evidence with Focus Blast suggests, that for coverage, Gengar was running HP-Ice far more than HP-Fire back then. If this is the case, HP-Ice use has dramtically dropped. This is not concrete, however, so I'll leave this as undecided.
Metagross: Ice Punch: 24%
Metagross: Ice Punch: 12.4%
Ice Punch is used half as much? I wonder why, with Salamance running riot, and Gliscor being one of the best Metagross checks out there? Metagross was bulky enough to take a ScarfChomp Earthquake, and any Garchomp's Outrage. Kinda makes you wonder... revenge killer? Again, Salamance useage suggests that Metagross should still be having a need for Ice Punch... but it dosen't, because Garchomp is gone.
2 to Centralisation
Lucario: A lot more used Bullet Punch back then, but that has no real bearing. Ice Punch is more used now, so I'll give Lucario to Not Centralised.
2-1
D-S is Uber now, hence, cannot be used, and cannot be compared.
2-1
Blissey:
Ice Beam: 51.7%, 3rd most common move.
Ice Beam: 33.3%, 5th most common move.
Catching Garchomp on the switch-in, or as it Sword Dances predicting a switch? Seems likly. Especially the massive drop in Ice Beam use. (Don't quote Flamethrower at me, it's risen, but still not above Ice Beam levels, and not by enough to explain the drop either)
3-1
Heatran:
Dragon Pulse: 31.5%
Hidden Power: 52.2%
Dragon Pulse: 32.4%
Hidden Power: 25.9% TOTAL
Dragon Pulse rose a little, but Hidden Power dropped over half. I see no reason why HP Grass use would fall, if anything, Swampert use would make it rise. HP Ice is currently the only other common Hidden Power on Heatran, which suggests that HP Ice was what fell, especially as Garchomp seems a solid reason, and most other types have moot coverage on Heatran's sets. However, evidence is not solid, so, I'll give that one as a draw.
3-1
Brongzong:
Look on suspect. Is 'Zong NOT one of the best Garchomp counters.
Overall Useage: 28.27%
Overall Useage: 6.6%
Massive Drop... especially seeing as it can still handle a lot of OU. The only thing that's changed that it could handle is... you guessed it, Garchomp.
4-1
Infernape: Hidden Power: 34.6%
Infernape: Hidden Power: (Ice and Total) 23.5%
Strongly suggests previous useage was all HP-Ice. Infernape was also a lot less unpredictable back then, with a common movepool list of 7 moves, compared to todays' 15. However, this can attributed to more movesets being found. Due to this, I'm calling a draw on this one as well, if only because the HP-Ice drop cannot be attributed to Garchomp.
Final Score for the Top 10: 4-1 to Centralisation, with 2 pokemon not counted, and 3 pokemon being unclear due to issues about Hidden Power. (However, these three strongly suggest HP Ice use was far higher back then, which indicates 7-1)
By the way, that thing that most people add at the end, saying if they think Garchomp is Uber or not which you mentioned. Arguments are about proving a point, and attempting to persuade others. That thing at the end you mentioned, it's a conclusion, summing up the argument the person has just made. My opinions have changed during suspect testing. I origionally thought that Manaphy was Uber, however, now, I feel that it could work in OU. Garchomp, however, I feel even more strongly about it being Uber than before. I might not get voting rights, because I had a lot of trouble stopping Garchomp, without resorting to the same team everyone else was running, and the fact that Suspect tends to be quite dead when I'm on it, but I played enough to be able to draw my own conclusion.
In all cases, the first entry of a move is pre-Garchomp banning, and the second is post.
Gyarados: Ice Fang: 47.2%
Gyarados: Ice Fang: 27.5%
Gyarados: Stone Edge: 44.5%
Gyarados: Stone Edge: 54.9%
Even with Latias being hit harder by Ice Fang than any other move Gyarados carries, and Salamance being hit just as hard as Garchomp ever was, it has dropped dramatically in use. On the other hand, the ever unreliable Stone Edge, which Garchomp happened to get a free switch-in on, use to be used less than Ice Fang. Look at it now.
Score 1 for Centralisation.
Note: Gengar is unreliable, as one of it's most common moves, Hyponysis, was nerfed down to 60% accuarcy. I have included Hypnoysis to show this:
Gengar: Hypnosis: 59.5%
Gegar: Hypnosis: 14.5%
As for Hidden Power, one can assume the majority of it is Ice, for several reasons:
1: Scizor was not as used back then
2: Garchomp was the most used pokemon
3: Focus Blast deals with most steels, HP Fire deals with most Steels. Genger had 4MSS even worse back then.
Gengar: Focus Blast: 72.1%
Gengar: Focus Blast: 64.3%
It's a fair statement to assume, due to coverage, a lower use of Focus Blast raises the use of Hidden Power Fire. Especially when Gengar's previously 4th most common move is less used, yet Focus Blast still manages to drop.
Gengar: Hidden Power [All]: 28.2%
Gengar: Hidden Power [Ice]: 13.2%
Gengar: Hidden Power [Fire]: 21.4%
4 moveslot syndrome has lessened with Gengar over Platinum, so Hidden Power is used overall, more. However, the evidence with Focus Blast suggests, that for coverage, Gengar was running HP-Ice far more than HP-Fire back then. If this is the case, HP-Ice use has dramtically dropped. This is not concrete, however, so I'll leave this as undecided.
Metagross: Ice Punch: 24%
Metagross: Ice Punch: 12.4%
Ice Punch is used half as much? I wonder why, with Salamance running riot, and Gliscor being one of the best Metagross checks out there? Metagross was bulky enough to take a ScarfChomp Earthquake, and any Garchomp's Outrage. Kinda makes you wonder... revenge killer? Again, Salamance useage suggests that Metagross should still be having a need for Ice Punch... but it dosen't, because Garchomp is gone.
2 to Centralisation
Lucario: A lot more used Bullet Punch back then, but that has no real bearing. Ice Punch is more used now, so I'll give Lucario to Not Centralised.
2-1
D-S is Uber now, hence, cannot be used, and cannot be compared.
2-1
Blissey:
Ice Beam: 51.7%, 3rd most common move.
Ice Beam: 33.3%, 5th most common move.
Catching Garchomp on the switch-in, or as it Sword Dances predicting a switch? Seems likly. Especially the massive drop in Ice Beam use. (Don't quote Flamethrower at me, it's risen, but still not above Ice Beam levels, and not by enough to explain the drop either)
3-1
Heatran:
Dragon Pulse: 31.5%
Hidden Power: 52.2%
Dragon Pulse: 32.4%
Hidden Power: 25.9% TOTAL
Dragon Pulse rose a little, but Hidden Power dropped over half. I see no reason why HP Grass use would fall, if anything, Swampert use would make it rise. HP Ice is currently the only other common Hidden Power on Heatran, which suggests that HP Ice was what fell, especially as Garchomp seems a solid reason, and most other types have moot coverage on Heatran's sets. However, evidence is not solid, so, I'll give that one as a draw.
3-1
Brongzong:
Look on suspect. Is 'Zong NOT one of the best Garchomp counters.
Overall Useage: 28.27%
Overall Useage: 6.6%
Massive Drop... especially seeing as it can still handle a lot of OU. The only thing that's changed that it could handle is... you guessed it, Garchomp.
4-1
Infernape: Hidden Power: 34.6%
Infernape: Hidden Power: (Ice and Total) 23.5%
Strongly suggests previous useage was all HP-Ice. Infernape was also a lot less unpredictable back then, with a common movepool list of 7 moves, compared to todays' 15. However, this can attributed to more movesets being found. Due to this, I'm calling a draw on this one as well, if only because the HP-Ice drop cannot be attributed to Garchomp.
Final Score for the Top 10: 4-1 to Centralisation, with 2 pokemon not counted, and 3 pokemon being unclear due to issues about Hidden Power. (However, these three strongly suggest HP Ice use was far higher back then, which indicates 7-1)
By the way, that thing that most people add at the end, saying if they think Garchomp is Uber or not which you mentioned. Arguments are about proving a point, and attempting to persuade others. That thing at the end you mentioned, it's a conclusion, summing up the argument the person has just made. My opinions have changed during suspect testing. I origionally thought that Manaphy was Uber, however, now, I feel that it could work in OU. Garchomp, however, I feel even more strongly about it being Uber than before. I might not get voting rights, because I had a lot of trouble stopping Garchomp, without resorting to the same team everyone else was running, and the fact that Suspect tends to be quite dead when I'm on it, but I played enough to be able to draw my own conclusion.
That is one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever seen.
Imagine for a moment you'd removed Salamence from OU, and given him six months, and reintroduced him to OU. You'd see massive movepool changes as people changed their teams to adapt. The same thing applies to Garchomp. You can't say OMGROFLMOVECHANGECENTRALIZATION because if you introduce any new Pokemon that would slot into the top twenty in OU, you'd see changes to movepools and certain Pokemon rising or falling in the tier lists. Of course movepools will change, and the metagame will have minor centralization around that particular Pokemon, but that means very little, because the whole point of the metagame is that it is constantly shifting to deal with the most popular threats of the day. It's the scale of centralization you need to worry about. If, in the stats you'd quoted, it had said Gyarados: Ice Fang: 90+% for pre-ban Garchomp, Blissey: Ice Beam: 100% for pre-ban Garchomp, Bronzong: dropped 20% in usage with the removal of Garchomp, then I may have seen your point, because those are big, big changes. As it is, what you've posted is a massive overreaction to something that happens all the time.
Imagine for a moment you'd removed Salamence from OU, and given him six months, and reintroduced him to OU. You'd see massive movepool changes as people changed their teams to adapt. The same thing applies to Garchomp. You can't say OMGROFLMOVECHANGECENTRALIZATION because if you introduce any new Pokemon that would slot into the top twenty in OU, you'd see changes to movepools and certain Pokemon rising or falling in the tier lists. Of course movepools will change, and the metagame will have minor centralization around that particular Pokemon, but that means very little, because the whole point of the metagame is that it is constantly shifting to deal with the most popular threats of the day. It's the scale of centralization you need to worry about. If, in the stats you'd quoted, it had said Gyarados: Ice Fang: 90+% for pre-ban Garchomp, Blissey: Ice Beam: 100% for pre-ban Garchomp, Bronzong: dropped 20% in usage with the removal of Garchomp, then I may have seen your point, because those are big, big changes. As it is, what you've posted is a massive overreaction to something that happens all the time.
@ Mr. E
I didn't say that Metagross and Heatran are primary Garchomp counters, YOU SAID that I said that. I just said they can both take Outrages and therefore serve utility when facing one.
I would say that 15% drop is a huge margin. It means that 15% less teams had a Gyarados, (and infact most of the pokemon on that list have dropped by that much or more) which is pretty significant when you consider that is Gyarados dropped 15% nowadays it would be nowhere on the usage charts. I don't think you can try and spin it that the massive general usage loss and increased size and balance of OU wasn't significant and I truly believe that it was over-centralisation, as most of the pokemon highly used back then had uses against Garchomp (although I did not say that were counters, don't put words in peoples mouths). I also truly believe it was Garchomps fault because it evened out once he left OU, more pokemon are now used less often, there is less CENTRALISATION.
Also here is my list from the previous post
Notice that I did not say any of these pokemon counter Garchomp, must have no chance of that. But as is shown they all had a good use against him.
I didn't say that Metagross and Heatran are primary Garchomp counters, YOU SAID that I said that. I just said they can both take Outrages and therefore serve utility when facing one.
I would say that 15% drop is a huge margin. It means that 15% less teams had a Gyarados, (and infact most of the pokemon on that list have dropped by that much or more) which is pretty significant when you consider that is Gyarados dropped 15% nowadays it would be nowhere on the usage charts. I don't think you can try and spin it that the massive general usage loss and increased size and balance of OU wasn't significant and I truly believe that it was over-centralisation, as most of the pokemon highly used back then had uses against Garchomp (although I did not say that were counters, don't put words in peoples mouths). I also truly believe it was Garchomps fault because it evened out once he left OU, more pokemon are now used less often, there is less CENTRALISATION.
Also here is my list from the previous post
Notice that I did not say any of these pokemon counter Garchomp, must have no chance of that. But as is shown they all had a good use against him.
As I said, the metagame shifts as it will. Garchomp leaving the metagame is obviously a big change, just as Latias entering it or Scizor emerging as a top threat. With one threat no longer needing to be accounted for, some pokémon will obviously change their movesets to accomodate the new threats that emerge.
The shift from Ice Fang (and Earthquake!) to Stone Edge on Gyarados makes sense. Only Ice Fang worked on Garchomp, so you had to use it that to beat it. With Garchomp gone, Salamence is now the next biggest threat. Salamence is vulnerable to Stone Edge as well... and Stone Edge also allows you to catch other Gyarados, who still remains a top threat! Why not run that and kill two birds with one stone? It's a perfect example of a very simple metagame shift dictating a very simple moveset change. Nothing else about Gyarados changed -- in fact, its use as a defensive pokémon has gone up over time, opposite of expected with Garchomp leaving -- it just swapped one move out for another to deal with the threat that replaced Garchomp. Perhaps it's also because Water/Ice is a generally easy-to-wall type combination by most other Waters and it simply fell out of favor. *shrug*
Metagross never used Ice Punch much to begin with so, while its usage may have gone from "little" to "almost none," it doesn't really matter that much. Metagross never carried Shuca Berry back then either, so it would've had no business fighting Garchomp anyway. If you really care about such a pointless change in usage, though, the emergence of Metagross as a strong lead is a more likely cause of Ice Punch's drop. Metagross was a mere #19 in lead usage back in August 2008, where these days it swaps back and forth with Azelf as a top lead. Leadgross never carries Ice Punch.
Blissey usage these days is split almost 50/50 between Softboiled and Wish as a recovery move, with Protect often accompanying the latter. This takes up an extra moveslot which Blissey would otherwise be using for Ice Beam much of the time, even now, to break Gengar Subs and combat Salamence. Wish Blissey did not exist back then, so they were more able to make room for another attack.
Indeed, Bronzong has seen a large decrease in usage since last year and I even admitted that Garchomp's removal is probably a big cause of that. That said, there's more to the story. Bronzong actually stayed in the 10-20 usage range for a long time after Garchomp left, only in the past three months has it taken that huge plummet down to #30. Magnezone's steady increase in usage over time is also a possible cause for its drop, since Bronzong can ill afford to drop its Leftovers for a Shed Shell. Yet it's still very good against a number of other OUs, as you stated, so maybe it's partially one of those mysterious things that "just happened" like with Heracross falling.
I'll even give you a freebie. Jolteon's most popular item currently is Choice Specs. Obviously, Specs Jolteon was nowhere to be found back in Garchomp's day. Similar to Gyarados' shift toward Stone Edge, it's just fucking common sense you don't want to lock yourself into a Choiced Electric attack when the top threat in the game is a Ground pokémon. Its pseudo-replacement, Salamence, is neutral to Electric and so is the current #1, Scizor. Specs would probably lose favor on Jolteon if Garchomp made its return, or at least it'd be dry BPing more often just to be safe, and you might also see a slight decrease in Trickscarf Rotom-A and stuff too. It's not really a cause for alarm, it's a very basic adaptation to a changing environment.
But were there any drastic changes? I would say not. I suppose one could say otherwise, though, since what constitutes "drastic" comes down to opinion. Did the general usage pattern in OU suddenly change? No, the same pattern endures. Even the same pokémon are largely used at about the same levels, where the only two that Garchomp might have had a notable effect on moving are Bronzong down and Jirachi up. Even then, it's surely not the only reason those things happened. Did Ice attacks in general fall out of favor with people? Please, the coveted "Boltbeam" predates Garchomp by ten years and Ice Beam remains a top five most common attack.
For the most part, things stayed the same and only minor changes occured, which is expected with the change of metagame. You just removed a pokémon from the metagame, of course movesets with change to accomodate the fact! Random fire moves on pokémon that generally don't carry them are a lot more common these days too as a result of Scizor becoming a major force. Does that mean Scizor is overcentralizing and should be pushed to Uber? No, not really. That's as basic a response to the metagame shift as Gyarados increasing its usage in Stone Edge from back in the day.
If most every pokémon on that list have majorly dropped, then how does that say anything about Garchomp at all? I could see your point if those pokémon were largely considered good Garchomp checks (but Garchomp is actually considered the counter to like half of them) and suddenly they were replaced by new pokémon that Garchomp had previously been holding back. That's not the case at all. Yeah, so maybe the metagame was centralized around Garchomp quite a bit. But it was also greatly centralized by Gengar, whose heavy usage could hardly be attributed to Garchomp at all. Does it not revenge Salamence just as well as it could have revenged Garchomp? HP Ice is still 4x, Shadow Ball is still neutral, Gengar still outspeeds it without DD (or at +1 with Scarf). Does it not still Tbolt Gyarados into oblivion, who remained a same threat it always was? Please, tell me how every pokémon enjoying higher usage proves that only Garchomp was centralizing.
Gyarados is actually used more defensively these days than it was back then, being a vital cog in many a curreny-day stall team and just more often investing in some physical bulk than it used to. If Garchomp was so centralizing, shouldn't that be the opposite? The better play would be to use Gyarados to check your opponents Garchomp, then set up your own and win. Garchomp is banned, well now you just kinda gotta deal with it and use Gyarados itself to sweep. The exact opposite happened. Granted, this is somewhat off-set by the fact that Ice Fang usage decreased. Cool, generic metagame shifts. Ice Fang used less often due to Garchomp no longer being a threat, increase in defensive sets do to new pokémon becoming threats. Talk about centralization! :justin2:
Besides which, arguing that every single one of those pokémon having use against Garchomp doesn't help your cause at all. Just a couple pages ago, I was told I needed half my team to be Skarmory / Scizor / Latias to check in on Suspect currently and now you're telling me I can just check it with all these other things as well? If that many pokémon have a potential utility to fighting Garchomp, how the hell can it be broken? A pokémon can't very well effortlessly sweep a team if everything under the sun can potentially check it.
Really? How much did it really even out?
Currently, Scizor is #1 in usage by a significant margin over #2, where usage evened out. The first pokémon with less than 10% of Scizor's usage is... Crobat, at #50. Hey, that's OU in a nutshell!
Garchomp was #1 in usage by a close margin over #2, Gengar, after which usage evened out. The first pokémon under 10% of Garchomp's usage was Umbreon, at #52. What do you know? Old-day OU was about the same size! (Actually, it was even larger since that was about the time we started dealing with tiers the way we currently do.) The only difference is that usage percentages ranged from 50->5% instead of 30->3%. It's a different scale but they're proportional and functionally identical. What does it matter either way?
Anyway, I'm going to bed now. Stop spouting wrongness long enough for me to get a good night's rest.
The shift from Ice Fang (and Earthquake!) to Stone Edge on Gyarados makes sense. Only Ice Fang worked on Garchomp, so you had to use it that to beat it. With Garchomp gone, Salamence is now the next biggest threat. Salamence is vulnerable to Stone Edge as well... and Stone Edge also allows you to catch other Gyarados, who still remains a top threat! Why not run that and kill two birds with one stone? It's a perfect example of a very simple metagame shift dictating a very simple moveset change. Nothing else about Gyarados changed -- in fact, its use as a defensive pokémon has gone up over time, opposite of expected with Garchomp leaving -- it just swapped one move out for another to deal with the threat that replaced Garchomp. Perhaps it's also because Water/Ice is a generally easy-to-wall type combination by most other Waters and it simply fell out of favor. *shrug*
Metagross never used Ice Punch much to begin with so, while its usage may have gone from "little" to "almost none," it doesn't really matter that much. Metagross never carried Shuca Berry back then either, so it would've had no business fighting Garchomp anyway. If you really care about such a pointless change in usage, though, the emergence of Metagross as a strong lead is a more likely cause of Ice Punch's drop. Metagross was a mere #19 in lead usage back in August 2008, where these days it swaps back and forth with Azelf as a top lead. Leadgross never carries Ice Punch.
Blissey usage these days is split almost 50/50 between Softboiled and Wish as a recovery move, with Protect often accompanying the latter. This takes up an extra moveslot which Blissey would otherwise be using for Ice Beam much of the time, even now, to break Gengar Subs and combat Salamence. Wish Blissey did not exist back then, so they were more able to make room for another attack.
Indeed, Bronzong has seen a large decrease in usage since last year and I even admitted that Garchomp's removal is probably a big cause of that. That said, there's more to the story. Bronzong actually stayed in the 10-20 usage range for a long time after Garchomp left, only in the past three months has it taken that huge plummet down to #30. Magnezone's steady increase in usage over time is also a possible cause for its drop, since Bronzong can ill afford to drop its Leftovers for a Shed Shell. Yet it's still very good against a number of other OUs, as you stated, so maybe it's partially one of those mysterious things that "just happened" like with Heracross falling.
I'll even give you a freebie. Jolteon's most popular item currently is Choice Specs. Obviously, Specs Jolteon was nowhere to be found back in Garchomp's day. Similar to Gyarados' shift toward Stone Edge, it's just fucking common sense you don't want to lock yourself into a Choiced Electric attack when the top threat in the game is a Ground pokémon. Its pseudo-replacement, Salamence, is neutral to Electric and so is the current #1, Scizor. Specs would probably lose favor on Jolteon if Garchomp made its return, or at least it'd be dry BPing more often just to be safe, and you might also see a slight decrease in Trickscarf Rotom-A and stuff too. It's not really a cause for alarm, it's a very basic adaptation to a changing environment.
But were there any drastic changes? I would say not. I suppose one could say otherwise, though, since what constitutes "drastic" comes down to opinion. Did the general usage pattern in OU suddenly change? No, the same pattern endures. Even the same pokémon are largely used at about the same levels, where the only two that Garchomp might have had a notable effect on moving are Bronzong down and Jirachi up. Even then, it's surely not the only reason those things happened. Did Ice attacks in general fall out of favor with people? Please, the coveted "Boltbeam" predates Garchomp by ten years and Ice Beam remains a top five most common attack.
For the most part, things stayed the same and only minor changes occured, which is expected with the change of metagame. You just removed a pokémon from the metagame, of course movesets with change to accomodate the fact! Random fire moves on pokémon that generally don't carry them are a lot more common these days too as a result of Scizor becoming a major force. Does that mean Scizor is overcentralizing and should be pushed to Uber? No, not really. That's as basic a response to the metagame shift as Gyarados increasing its usage in Stone Edge from back in the day.
If most every pokémon on that list have majorly dropped, then how does that say anything about Garchomp at all? I could see your point if those pokémon were largely considered good Garchomp checks (but Garchomp is actually considered the counter to like half of them) and suddenly they were replaced by new pokémon that Garchomp had previously been holding back. That's not the case at all. Yeah, so maybe the metagame was centralized around Garchomp quite a bit. But it was also greatly centralized by Gengar, whose heavy usage could hardly be attributed to Garchomp at all. Does it not revenge Salamence just as well as it could have revenged Garchomp? HP Ice is still 4x, Shadow Ball is still neutral, Gengar still outspeeds it without DD (or at +1 with Scarf). Does it not still Tbolt Gyarados into oblivion, who remained a same threat it always was? Please, tell me how every pokémon enjoying higher usage proves that only Garchomp was centralizing.
Gyarados is actually used more defensively these days than it was back then, being a vital cog in many a curreny-day stall team and just more often investing in some physical bulk than it used to. If Garchomp was so centralizing, shouldn't that be the opposite? The better play would be to use Gyarados to check your opponents Garchomp, then set up your own and win. Garchomp is banned, well now you just kinda gotta deal with it and use Gyarados itself to sweep. The exact opposite happened. Granted, this is somewhat off-set by the fact that Ice Fang usage decreased. Cool, generic metagame shifts. Ice Fang used less often due to Garchomp no longer being a threat, increase in defensive sets do to new pokémon becoming threats. Talk about centralization! :justin2:
Besides which, arguing that every single one of those pokémon having use against Garchomp doesn't help your cause at all. Just a couple pages ago, I was told I needed half my team to be Skarmory / Scizor / Latias to check in on Suspect currently and now you're telling me I can just check it with all these other things as well? If that many pokémon have a potential utility to fighting Garchomp, how the hell can it be broken? A pokémon can't very well effortlessly sweep a team if everything under the sun can potentially check it.
Really? How much did it really even out?
Currently, Scizor is #1 in usage by a significant margin over #2, where usage evened out. The first pokémon with less than 10% of Scizor's usage is... Crobat, at #50. Hey, that's OU in a nutshell!
Garchomp was #1 in usage by a close margin over #2, Gengar, after which usage evened out. The first pokémon under 10% of Garchomp's usage was Umbreon, at #52. What do you know? Old-day OU was about the same size! (Actually, it was even larger since that was about the time we started dealing with tiers the way we currently do.) The only difference is that usage percentages ranged from 50->5% instead of 30->3%. It's a different scale but they're proportional and functionally identical. What does it matter either way?
Anyway, I'm going to bed now. Stop spouting wrongness long enough for me to get a good night's rest.
Then if we can't see it's power because we're preparing for it, then doesn't that mean that it's counterable to the point that's it's no longer a HUGE threat?