Revisions - Revenankh discussion

[zarator]

Been a while since I took part in CAP

Anyways, I would like to expand a bit on Revenankh's support movepool and give it Will-o-Wisp. If I can recall, one argument used against it was because it would be too much like Dusknoir. However, since Dusknoir has been trashed nowadays we shouldn't care about it much anymore

With Will-o-Wisp, Arghonaut can be seriously crippled as it uses physical attacks to deal damage, and it becomes less effective at taking hits. Fidgit also doesn't like being burned all that much, given that its only recovery move is Wish. Furthermore, Will-o-Wisp can deter Calm Mind Jirachi from swapping in and wrecks Metagross, Gyarados and Salamence to an extent. You can also use it in conjunction with Taunt to beat up slower arghonaut and Gyarados. With four moves, I highly doubt it'd become broken. Also, for flavor reasons, all the other ghosts bar frosslass gets it :)

I agree with Will-o-Wisp viability, although I doubt it will be as useful as it is on Kitsunoh or Rotom. I can see some "lure" set being somewhat effective, but do not forget that Revenankh tend to draw in Special attackers much more frequently than, say, Rotom.

 

[Zystral]

Been a while since I took part in CAP
With Will-o-Wisp, Arghonaut can be seriously crippled as it uses physical attacks to deal damage, and it becomes less effective at taking hits. Fidgit also doesn't like being burned all that much, given that its only recovery move is Wish. Furthermore, Will-o-Wisp can deter Calm Mind Jirachi from swapping in and wrecks Metagross, Gyarados and Salamence to an extent. You can also use it in conjunction with Taunt to beat up slower arghonaut and Gyarados. With four moves, I highly doubt it'd become broken. Also, for flavor reasons, all the other ghosts bar frosslass gets it :)

I don't think that you can deter Metagross properly without Fire Punch or something. Salamence can run Special in which case you're screwed too.

 

[tennisace]

I don't want to call people out, but let me make some points clear.

1) You do not need to respond to every little suggestion, only the ones you passionately disagree with, or the majority is iffy on and you want to fully support it.

2) Don't just list suggestions, explain what they would actually give to the Pokemon.

3) GTFO (Get the flavor out) of this thread. We don't need to know if "every ghost has x but Revenankh", because we aren't trying to make Revenankh like every other ghost. We want to make it more competitively viable in an environment where it is shut down quite easily. Some of the moves may overlap (WoW is a good example of this), but we should only consider moves that actually significantly help Revenankh.

Now, I'm going to assume we wish it to remain a tank that can boost its stats at will. So lets narrow down our suggestions to things that will help it do so. As an example, Thunderpunch is a nice move and all, but the pokemon it would hit with it either have Intimidate (Gyarados), can severely hurt Revenankh (Togekiss), OR get hit harder by another move (Arghonaut). So while it's nice to have in theory, it doesn't help it all to much. On the other hand, Will-o-Wisp works well in that Fidgit, Gyarados, and Arghonaut all HATE getting burned, and Heatran won't dare come in on fear of a Hammer Arm in the face.

I'd like to see more discussion of stats and ability, since it's pretty clear what moves we want added.

 

[Deck Knight]

In fairness tennis, Thunderpunch does have the singular advantage over Stone Edge of being accurate and a way to hit both Gyara and Arghonaut at the same time. It's not super-dee-duper, but it's not entrely worthless.

The calcs to come assume the following:

Revenankh has its stats upgraded to 95/108/90/65/100/72.

Revenankh's second ability is changed to Mold Breaker.

+1 No Atk Revenankh to RecoverTank Arghonaut with Thunderpunch:

378 Atk vs 281 Def & 414 HP (75 Base Power): 146 - 172 (35.27% - 41.55%) 3HKO

+1 No Atk Revenankh to RecoverTank Arghonaut with Power Whip:

378 Atk vs 281 Def & 414 HP (120 Base Power): 232 - 274 (56.04% - 66.18%) 2HKO..

Remember that this is 0 Atk BU Rev with Mold Breaker in these calcs. Meaning this is very low-balled damage.

My assumption of the EV makeup is something like:

216 HP / 40 Def / 216 SDef / 36 Spe.

Which should leave you with these stats:

385 HP / 252 Atk / 226 Def / 166 SA / 319 SpD / 189 Spe.

Which is what the standard BU Rev has now for defenses, with an additional HP (and marginally higher attack). You could also Taunt Arghonaut before it could do anything to you, at least standard versions of it.

This increase allows for a bit more versatility while still keeping that Revenankh "feel," if you can call it that. You can still stat-up tank. but you can also keep most slower status users away, at least until you use Hammer Arm.

With that in mind, in addition to Close Combat I'd also suggest the old CC, Cross Chop.

More fun:

No Atk +1 EQ on Max/Max+ Rotom: 378 Atk vs 344 Def & 304 HP (100 Base Power): 158 - 188 (51.97% - 61.84%) 2HKO in Sandstorm or SR. Kind of sad EQ has more power than Shadow Punch...

No Atk EQ on Max/4 HP/Def Fidgit: 252 Atk vs 254 Def & 394 HP (100 Base Power): 144 - 170 (36.55% - 43.15%) 3HKO.
+1 No Atk EQ on " ": 378 Atk vs 254 Def & 394 HP (100 Base Power): 214 - 254 (54.31% - 64.47%) 2HKO.

No Atk EQ on 4/0 HP/Def Gengar: 252 Atk vs 156 Def & 262 HP (100 Base Power): 232 - 274 (88.55% - 104.58%) OHKO with SR.

 

[Fuzznip]

Metagross and Salamence won't be switching into Revenankh that much anyway, and Gyarados can't do much without either some large DDance boosts or Bounce.

Actually, you're wrong. Metagross is one of the best switch-ins to Revenankh due to its reasonably high physical bulk and access to STAB Zen Headbutt (which 2HKOs Revenankh even if it has +1 Defense). Salamence can easily destroy Revenankh with a combination of Draco Meteor and Outrage, while Revenankh can't do any significant amount of damage back due to Intimidate. Lastly, Gyarados that carry Taunt will always beat Revenankh, and it's not like those variants are uncommon in today's metagame. I guess you'll have to Will-O-Wisp Gyarados on the switch, since Taunt will stop Revenankh from using it.

I don't really mind Will-O-Wisp at all now that I think of it. It really cripples Arghonaut and Kitsunoh, two common Revenankh switch-ins, as well as crippling several other physical sweepers, such as the aforementioned Pokemon, Lucario, and Skarmory.

 

[The Other Doug]

Iron Fist is completely useless, sorry.

Before you say that, here's a list of all the moves effected by Iron Fist:
-Bullet Punch
-Comet Punch
-Dizzy Punch
-Drain Punch
-Dynamic Punch
-Fire Punch
-Ice Punch
-Thunder Punch
-Focus Punch
-Hammer Arm
-Mach Punch
-Mega Punch
-Meteor Mash
-Shadow Punch
-Sky Uppercut

As you can see, some moves that Revenankh already has receives a power boost from Iron Fist:
-Mach Punch's power increases from 60, to 72 making it a good (not great) priority move.
-Shadow Punch's power increases to 108 making it a very viable STAB attack
-Drain Punch's power also increases to 108, making it a fairly decent recovery move
-Hammer Arm's power increases to 180, the same power as a STAB Close Combat.
-Focus Punch's power increases to a whopping 270, making a SubPunching set more viable.
-Ice Punch increases to about 86, thus hitting most flying types much harder then before.

Plus there are some new moves we could give it to make Iron Fist an even more viable option:
-Sky Uppercut's power increases to 153. Although it's not as powerful as Hammer Arm, Sky Upper Cut doesn't lower Rev's speed.
-Thunder & Fire Punch both get a power boost from 75, to about 86.
As you can see, Iron Fist makes Offensive Revenankh more viable.

As for the other suggestions for abilities:
-Mold Breaker is a dumb idea IMO. The only reason you'd use it is to beat Arghonaut, and CAP created that Pirate Squid in with the goal of countering Revenankh (As well as Syclant, Fidgit, Stratagem, Tyranitar, Scizor, Blissey, and Heatran) in the first place.

-Pressure could be very useful on more defensive sets, but it would not be
broken, because without Shed Skin, Rev is threatened by status.

-Levitate has a few advantages in certain scenarios: Levitate makes Rev an even better counter to Stratagem since Rev resists Paleo Wave, and would be immune to Earth Power. Levitate could also make Rev a decent check to Colossoil, by switching in on an Earthquake, and threatening the evil narwhal with a STAB fighting move. Levitate also gives Revenankh a chance to switch in on Choiced ground type moves, giving Rev a free turn to Bulk Up, or set up a Substitute. (Again making SubPunching a more viable option.)

Those are my opinions on possible new abilities for Rev.

 

[zarator]

Before you say that, here's a list of all the moves effected by Iron Fist:
-Bullet Punch
-Comet Punch
-Dizzy Punch
-Drain Punch
-Dynamic Punch
-Fire Punch
-Ice Punch
-Thunder Punch
-Focus Punch
-Hammer Arm
-Mach Punch
-Mega Punch
-Meteor Mash
-Shadow Punch
-Sky Uppercut

As you can see, some moves that Revenankh already has receives a power boost from Iron Fist:
-Mach Punch's power increases from 60, to 72 making it a good (not great) priority move.
-Shadow Punch's power increases to 108 making it a very viable STAB attack
-Drain Punch's power also increases to 108, making it a fairly decent recovery move
-Hammer Arm's power increases to 180, the same power as a STAB Close Combat.
-Focus Punch's power increases to a whopping 270, making a SubPunching set more viable.
-Ice Punch increases to about 86, thus hitting most flying types much harder then before.

Mach Punch sees little to no use.
We can give a boost to Revenankh's Shadow STAB simply by giving it Shadow Claw instead of boosting Shadow Punch with Iron Fist.
Drain Punch is negligible when you have a great recovery combo in ShedRest, and Arghonaut is better at using Drain Punch anyway thanks to Unaware and more overall bulk.
Why give to Revenankh Iron Fist to make Hammer Arm as powerful as Close Combat when we can... uhmmm... give to Rev Close Combat? I mean, Iron Fist would be used only for offensive sets anyway, so why not give it Close Combat instead of Iron Fist Hammer Arm?
There are much better SubPunchers out there. Breloom outdamages Rev regardless of Iron Fist and has Spore and Poison HEal to boot. Tyranitar has 101 HP Subs and a better way of disposing of its counters. Argho again performs this better. And the list goes on.
Ice Punch... well, Ice Punch is viable, and Eric the Espeon proved it a long time ago.

So, basically, we are giving Iron Fist to Revenankh in order to power up Ice Punch and a bunch of not-so-useful or replaceable moves on an already secondary group of moveset (i.e. offensive ones)? Sorry, but I won't buy it.

Plus there are some new moves we could give it to make Iron Fist an even more viable option:
-Sky Uppercut's power increases to 153. Although it's not as powerful as Hammer Arm, Sky Upper Cut doesn't lower Rev's speed.
-Thunder & Fire Punch both get a power boost from 75, to about 86.
As you can see, Iron Fist makes Offensive Revenankh more viable.

Why giving Sky Uppercut to Revenankh when we can give him Close Combat? And why would I need ThunderPunch and Fire Punch when I already have Earthquake, Power Whip and Rock Slide?

As for the other suggestions for abilities:
-Mold Breaker is a dumb idea IMO. The only reason you'd use it is to beat Arghonaut, and CAP created that Pirate Squid in with the goal of countering Revenankh (As well as Syclant, Fidgit, Stratagem, Tyranitar, Scizor, Blissey, and Heatran) in the first place.

The idea of a CAP for countering other CAPs is a dumb idea in itself. I remember that what you said was one of the aim of Argh concept but, honestly, I don't care.

-Pressure could be very useful on more defensive sets, but it would not be
broken, because without Shed Skin, Rev is threatened by status.

Very useful? Have you bothered reading what I said about Pressure?

-Levitate has a few advantages in certain scenarios: Levitate makes Rev an even better counter to Stratagem since Rev resists Paleo Wave, and would be immune to Earth Power. Levitate could also make Rev a decent check to Colossoil, by switching in on an Earthquake, and threatening the evil narwhal with a STAB fighting move. Levitate also gives Revenankh a chance to switch in on Choiced ground type moves, giving Rev a free turn to Bulk Up, or set up a Substitute. (Again making SubPunching a more viable option.)

Flamethrower outdamages Earth Power anyway, and Stratagem isn't certainly the most threatening foe to Revenankh. Also, thinking Rev as a Colossoil check is the worst idea I've ever heard of regarding Revenankh itself.

Those are my opinions on possible new abilities for Rev.

This talk reminds me of when people wanted to negate Thunderbolt, Ice Beam and Flamethrower to Stratagem in order to make Technician more viable. Frankly, if I have to nerf a Pokémon in order to give him an ability, I prefer to leave the Pokémon as it is and NOT give him the ability. really, with all the good abilities out there, why people keep commenting on bullshit like Iron Fist?

 

[The Other Doug]

Why give to Revenankh Iron Fist to make Hammer Arm as powerful as Close Combat when we can... uhmmm... give to Rev Close Combat? I mean, Iron Fist would be used only for offensive sets anyway, so why not give it Close Combat instead of Iron Fist Hammer Arm?

Close Combat lowers Revenankh good defenses, and has pathetic PP. With Iron Fist, you could use a more offensive variant of Bulk Up with Hammer Arm. (Kinda like Stratagem, who can use Calm Mind both defensively & offensively depending on whether you're using Levitate or Technician)

There are much better SubPunchers out there. Breloom outdamages Rev regardless of Iron Fist and has Spore and Poison HEal to boot. Tyranitar has 101 HP Subs and a better way of disposing of its counters. Argho again performs this better. And the list goes on.

Do any of the SubPunchers you mentioned have unresisted Dual STAB moves? Can Breloom or Arghonaut switch in on a Normal or Fghting type move, and take no damage at all? Don't get me wrong, Arghonaut, Tyranitar, and Breloom are very good SubPunchers, but Rev can preform this role pretty well too.

Why giving Sky Uppercut to Revenankh when we can give him Close Combat?

Because Close Combat lowers Revenankh good defenses, and has pathetic PP. And unlike Hammer Arm, Sky Uppercut doesn't lower Revenankh's speed. It's a decent alternative to a STAB Fighting move that's much more powerful then Brick Break

And why would I need ThunderPunch and Fire Punch when I already have Earthquake, Power Whip and Rock Slide?

Because Power Whip and Earthquake do jack-$h** to Skarmony, and ThunderPunch does way more damage to Gyrados then Rock Slide.

Flamethrower outdamages Earth Power anyway, and Stratagem isn't certainly the most threatening foe to Revenankh.

Not all Stratagem carry Flamethrower. Quite a few run Paleo Wave & Earth Power as their only attacking moves, so all I'm saying, is that Levitate makes an already good counter to Stratagem even better.

Also, thinking Rev as a Colossoil check is the worst idea I've ever heard of regarding Revenankh itself.

I shouldn't have used the word "Decent Check." What I meant was that if you were up against a Choice Band Colossoil (Heck, any Choice Banded/Scarfed Ground type.) stuck on Earthquake you could switch in Rev, giving you a free turn to Bulk Up, set up a substitute, or maybe do both. I never meant to say that Rev could fully check Colossoil because that is a stupid idea.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

I can't really see any reason to beef up Revanankh to such an extent - certainly not in a way that warrants an ability change, although this is more because I think that ShedRest is powerful enough that Revenankh doesn't really need more options. MoonLock is a perfectly good second option. I'd support Will-o-Wisp, but in all honesty I think that that's about as far as we need to go.

 

[zarator]

@The Other Doug: Don't get me wrong. I know Iron Fist have some advantages. What I'm trying to say, however, is that they are so tiny, compared to what other abilities could do, that I feel it would be a waste of an ability slot.

@BugManiacBob: First of all, MoonLock is not good, by any means. If you want some proof of my words, read Doug's statistics and you'll see how few people even used Air Lock in the first place. Unless you are saying something like Mold Breaker or Scrappy would be broken (something I'd like you to prove, if that is the case), then I wonder why should we not replace Air Lock with something more useful.

 

[Anachronism]

I think that Revanankh may actually become popular on stall over Rotom for multiple reasons, the first being his 4x bug resist for taking uturns, and the second being his neutraliy to pursuit and fighting stab, which is very important with Colossoil making its appearance on most offense teams these days, killing Rotoms all day. Though he lacks some of the resists Rotom enjoys, most notably steel, it makes up for it in defenses and amazing dual stab, as well as bulk up. It also fares far better against starmie, who is a pokemon that tends to create logistical issues for stall. shadow sneak also helps take out the annoying Azelf and Gengar too if you can manage to sneak (no pun intended) in on focus blast or flamethrower/fire blast. The only major problem is the accumulation of psychic weaks, since argho and fidgit are compulsory on stall, but even that is mitigated by shadow sneak for the most part.

For these reasons, I propose no changes should be made. It is already a fine pokemon all will probably enjoy a fair amount of play, even if it can't beat argho and fidgit.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

First of all, MoonLock is not good, by any means. If you want some proof of my words, read Doug's statistics and you'll see how few people even used Air Lock in the first place.

*Points to self*

Moonlock is good if you want reliability, which is why I used it mostly before and occasionally during playtesting. But that's not the point.

Unless you are saying something like Mold Breaker or Scrappy would be broken (something I'd like you to prove, if that is the case), then I wonder why should we not replace Air Lock with something more useful.

We aren't trying to make Revanankh 'the best of the best' by any stage - unless I'm completely mistaken, any changes needed to make Revenankh a competitively viable Pokemon will be made. It's perfectly good as it is. Minor additions are always an option, obviously, I just don't think that something as good as Mold Breaker or Scrappy is wholly necessary.

 

[zarator]

We aren't trying to make Revanankh 'the best of the best' by any stage - unless I'm completely mistaken, any changes needed to make Revenankh a competitively viable Pokemon will be made. It's perfectly good as it is. Minor additions are always an option, obviously, I just don't think that something as good as Mold Breaker or Scrappy is wholly necessary.

We aren't trying to make Revenankh "the best of the best", as you said, but as of now, it is far too underwhelming for my taste. And I used Revenankh extensively, so I know what I'm talking about. I just think Revenankh may need a little boost to reach the level of effectiveness other CAPs like Stratagem, Fidgit, Arghonaut and Cyclohm have in their respective jobs.

 

[FlareBlitz]

If we're in agreement that BulkyShedRest is Ankh's best set, then I think we should focus on creating an entirely separate niche for him with his second ability instead of trying to make it compete with Shed Skin for his Rest/Bulk Up set. There are a few options for this, and some have already been mentioned, but one that hasn't is Technician. Technician offers a couple of important advantages, in order of most important to least:

-Boosts Shadow Sneak and Mach Punch's power to 90 base (same as Tech BP Scizor). Shadow Sneak and Mach Punch give Ankh unresisted priority coverage, possibly making it a potent revenge killer, and greatly improving its CB set.
-Boosts Shadow Punch's base power to 135, making it the strongest physical ghost attack (besides the Giratina exclusive Shadow Force)
-Boosts Drain Punch's power to 135 base, making it a decent STAB and a form of health recovery for more offense-minded or non-boosting tank sets.
- Makes Arm Thrust a more attractive option, especially if Ankh finds itself up against substitute users often. The weakest arm thrust (2 hits) ends up having 90 base, the same as Drain Punch would now, while the strongest (5 hits) has 225 base. Average base power is around 135.

A Choice Band or Life Orb set with Mach Punch/Shadow Sneak/Drain Punch/Shadow Punch or Coverage Move with the Technician ability could be very effective. If we go in this direction, it may be a good idea to give Ankh a bit more speed and a few more Technician-friendly moves (like Low Kick, which can be as strong as Close Combat against heavy opponents while not being too weak against light ones due to Technician boosting it).

 

[reachzero]

I think a problem that this thread is having is pinning down what Revenankh actually does--what sort of teams it will likely be used on. For example, if we want Revenankh to be used more of offensive teams, then an ability like Iron Fist makes a certain degree of sense, yes. However, I see Revenankh's niche as "the best post-Colossoil Spin blocker on CAP", a staple for a good full stall team. As such, I'm rather surprised that the question being asked is not, if anything, "how do we make Revenankh a better Spin blocker?" Without seriously number-crunching, I would guess that the overwhelmingly most common CAP Rapid Spin users are Fidgit and Starmie. Aside from implementing Zen Headbutt, which Rev now theoretically already has, not a lot whole lot is going to help Revenankh keep Fidgit from setting up on it (well, perhaps Roar?). Starmie is a bit of a different story--If I was Starmie, I think I would pretty much always switch out in fear of Shadow Sneak if Rev came in to Spin block, so I rather wonder why Revenankh isn't using Pursuit more often. In other words, I really don't think Revenankh really needs anything new, and I suspect that people have considered poorly what its role in this metagame really is.

 

[BetterThanYourGod]

Another move which is boosted by technician is Force Palm, which, if paired with will-o-wisp, could make it a more viable supporter/spin blocker. For example, if it had a technician boost, force palm would allow him to paralyze Collosoil (not that he couldn't do it without the boost, but he'd also be able to damage him more significantly).

 

[Umbreon Dan]

I think a problem that this thread is having is pinning down what Revenankh actually does--what sort of teams it will likely be used on. For example, if we want Revenankh to be used more of offensive teams, then an ability like Iron Fist makes a certain degree of sense, yes. However, I see Revenankh's niche as "the best post-Colossoil Spin blocker on CAP", a staple for a good full stall team. As such, I'm rather surprised that the question being asked is not, if anything, "how do we make Revenankh a better Spin blocker?" Without seriously number-crunching, I would guess that the overwhelmingly most common CAP Rapid Spin users are Fidgit and Starmie. Aside from implementing Zen Headbutt, which Rev now theoretically already has, not a lot whole lot is going to help Revenankh keep Fidgit from setting up on it (well, perhaps Roar?). Starmie is a bit of a different story--If I was Starmie, I think I would pretty much always switch out in fear of Shadow Sneak if Rev came in to Spin block, so I rather wonder why Revenankh isn't using Pursuit more often. In other words, I really don't think Revenankh really needs anything new, and I suspect that people have considered poorly what its role in this metagame really is.

I think this post hit on something that has been widely overlooked up until now. Though I disagree with parts of it, I think the concept is definitely true that Revenankh definitely needs to be taken in some sort of direction. That is the reason for which we later established the concept stage of the CAP project.

I'm telling you right now: Revenankh's "concept" is a bulky spin-blocker that can set up Bulk Up. This is definitely a solid niche in any metagame, so the problem is that Revenankh just doesn't do it well enough.

Changes that are suggested should have something to do with the improvement of Revenankh in this regard. Will-o-wisp, for example, will always force Donphan to switch out. I'm also liking Fire Punch for its ability to scare away Forretress. Zen Headbutt might be useful against Fidgit. On top of that, I'm thinking maybe Revenankh could use a bit more SDef to take Life Orb Starmie's attacks a bit better.

However, I feel that certain suggestions are going in the wrong direction. Using this reasoning, I cannot see any justification for Thunderpunch, for example. Admittedly, it's not a great move anyway, and I know it wouldn't be broken, but I think Revenankh should be improved in other ways instead of being able to lure and KO Gyarados.

To reiterate what tennisace said:

3) GTFO (Get the flavor out) of this thread. We don't need to know if "every ghost has x but Revenankh", because we aren't trying to make Revenankh like every other ghost. We want to make it more competitively viable in an environment where it is shut down quite easily. Some of the moves may overlap (WoW is a good example of this), but we should only consider moves that actually significantly help Revenankh.

Now, I'm going to assume we wish it to remain a tank that can boost its stats at will. So lets narrow down our suggestions to things that will help it do so. As an example, Thunderpunch is a nice move and all, but the pokemon it would hit with it either have Intimidate (Gyarados), can severely hurt Revenankh (Togekiss), OR get hit harder by another move (Arghonaut). So while it's nice to have in theory, it doesn't help it all to much. On the other hand, Will-o-Wisp works well in that Fidgit, Gyarados, and Arghonaut all HATE getting burned, and Heatran won't dare come in on fear of a Hammer Arm in the face.

I'd like to see more discussion of stats and ability, since it's pretty clear what moves we want added.

I was going to start the movepool poll today, but Thunderpunch has me thinking twice. It'll go up tomorrow, I promise. Also, I'm curious about why nobody has suggested ShadowStrike. Does everybody have an unspoken agreement that I don't know about?

 

[FlareBlitz]

I'm not really sure why we absolutely need to stick to the "bulky spin blocker" thing, mostly because I see literally no way to improve the main BulkRest set besides making minor movepool/stat changes. I think we'd be better served attempting to make Ankh better at other things (like, say, making it a better offensive revenge killer, or a choice bander that's extremely difficult to switch in to due to its coverage, etc) instead of attempting to marginally improve the only thing it already does well.

 

[Deck Knight]

It's late so I just want to put cliffnotes here:

Life Orb Starmie has a nonzero chance of competitively using Psychic, especially with Arghonaut buzzing about. Short of a massive unnecessary boost in SpD, Starmie destroys Rev, just like Latias does. With all the CAP pokemon capable of taking on ubiquitous Steel types, Psychic isn't a terrible offensive type anymore, and at least in Starmie's case, Colossoil isn't going to detract that much.

Forretress does nothing to Rev. It's strongest attack is the pathetic unSTAB Payback or Earthquake which Rev easily capitalizes on with Bulk Up. Gyarados has trouble if it switches into a set with Bulk Up and Thunderpunch since it still has to deal with the defense boost Rev got, and the -1 Atk is nullified. Scizor is limited mostly to Bullet Punch, which can hurt, but Rev otherwise can eat U-turn and non-switch Pursuits all day in the course of setting up. Fire Punch is otherwise generally the same or weaker than Hammer Arm. Thunderpunch at least allows Revenankh to address one pokemon it had trouble with before, and that particular pokemon is everywhere.

 

[reachzero]

Forretress does nothing to Rev. It's strongest attack is the pathetic unSTAB Payback or Earthquake which Rev easily capitalizes on with Bulk Up.

This is only the case in a last Pokemon situation. Before then, it is a VERY bad idea to leave Rev in on Forretress, letting it put up it's own Spikes/Toxic Spikes against you. I would definitely switch out of Forretress one I was confident in the fact that it isn't going to Spin. Of course, unless you are absolutely desperate for a Steel type, I think Fidgit does Forry's job a lot better by virtue of the fact that it absorbs Toxic Spikes just by switching in, which is vital for keeping Arghonaut alive.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

I'm not really sure why we absolutely need to stick to the "bulky spin blocker" thing, mostly because I see literally no way to improve the main BulkRest set besides making minor movepool/stat changes. I think we'd be better served attempting to make Ankh better at other things (like, say, making it a better offensive revenge killer, or a choice bander that's extremely difficult to switch in to due to its coverage, etc) instead of attempting to marginally improve the only thing it already does well.

I don't think Revenankh will ever be as good as currently existing Pokemon in either of those regards. For example, we would need a massive Attack boost for Revenankh to be nearly as powerful a revenge killer as Scizor. Revenankh needs at least a reasonably unique niche if it's going to see more usage.

It's late so I just want to put cliffnotes here:

Life Orb Starmie has a nonzero chance of competitively using Psychic, especially with Arghonaut buzzing about. Short of a massive unnecessary boost in SpD, Starmie destroys Rev, just like Latias does. With all the CAP pokemon capable of taking on ubiquitous Steel types, Psychic isn't a terrible offensive type anymore, and at least in Starmie's case, Colossoil isn't going to detract that much.

Actually, I disagree. Starmie isn't like Metagross; Metagross uses Zen Headbutt to 2HKO Arghonaut, Revenankh, and the occasional Pyroak, as well as seriously hurt Rotom-a, which Metagross can't do without using its Psychic STAB. Starmie, however, has Surf for Fidgit and Thunderbolt for Arghonaut. Offensive sets 2HKO comfortably, even without Life Orb, but it barely matters since the standard Waterfall/Ice Punch/Brick Break Arghonaut can't touch Starmie anyway. The only reason Psychic would be used would be for Revenankh, but that means the only possible set on which Psychic could be used is Surf/Psychic/Recover/Rapid Spin, which obviously has its flaws.

As for the spin-blocking niche, Revenankh could do it a lot better than it currently does. Rest/Bulk Up/Shadow Sneak/Hammer Arm is a great set and everything, but it really isn't terribly effective at preventing Rapid Spinners from doing their jobs. Fidgit will Encore you every time and then set up in your face. Starmie does enough damage with Life Orb Hydro Pumps to keep Revenankh at bay. Reachzero made a great point about Forretress, Colossoil is too powerful to switch into, Donphan will gladly Roar... Overall, Rotom-a is still the preferred Pokemon on CAP stall teams. Revenankh is definintely a decent Pokemon; it's just not as good as it could or should be.

 

[zarator]

Also, I'm curious about why nobody has suggested ShadowStrike. Does everybody have an unspoken agreement that I don't know about?

I think nobody suggested ShadowStrike because it would probably be broken. It gives to Bulk Up Revenankh a terrifying weapon (do not forget that Revenankh's attack is even higher than Kitsunoh's, and when you combine ShadowStrike's side effect and Bulk Up's boost, the result would be painful), and if Rev gets Will-o-Wisp, I foresee a Wispy Rev as a new frightening set. Hell, even with less speed, it could be even better than Kitsunoh, with more bulk to boot.

In short, while not a certain fact, ShadowStrike may push Revenankh over the top. The only bright side of the situation is that, at least, Arghonaut would be declassed from an hard counter to a reliable check (something I want from the beginning)

EDIT: also, wow, 666 posts. I have an ominous feeling.

 

[Fuzznip]

I would agree that ShadowStrike is a bit too much, as it will be a seriously damaging attack. I don't really want Revenankh to have ShadowStrike anyway, because it's meant for Kitsunoh only. The only reason we made the move ShadowStrike was for Kitsunoh to have a more stronger STAB Ghost-type attack, rather than using Shadow Claw or something along the lines of that that won't help it offensively at all. Revenankh is not like Kitsunoh, however, it doesn't need that extra power to do its job well, which is using the ShedRest combo and being a good Spin-blocker. ShadowStrike will just make Revenankh a much larger offensive threat, which I don't think we are aiming for.

 

[Korski]

I'll agree with others that giving Rev a speed boost (70-80) would make it more appealing to run Taunt to make Forretress completely useless (Forry is really the only notable pokemon it can Taunt at its current speed), and could add things like Argho, Vaporeon, Pyroak who run Spe EVs to outrun Tyranitar and the like, defensive Suicune, and Skarmory to that list (Skarmory can't OHKO a 252/0 build with Brave Bird without prior damage) with minor investment, making it a much more appealing move. A Support build like Taunt/Knock Off(/Status)/Attack/Rest could be viable for stall teams. For example, without LO, Starmie's Hydro Pump is a 4HKO on the standard 252/216 Careful Spread, meaning you can switch in on RS and stall it out after using Knock Off. Taunting or removing the items of offensive threats like Agiligross, Sub/LO or Scarf Colossoil, and CM or Trick Latias on the switch is also useful in a metagame where the three thrive.

I see no way of getting around the Fidgit problem short of giving Rev Soundproof as an ability, which would also help against Roarers and rare Perish Song or Heal Bell users. Apart from Fidgit specifically, though, I can't see much of an advantage over Shed Skin.

Mold Breaker would be an interesting option if we wanted to go more on the offensive with Rev or remove Arghonaut from its "aw fuck" list, but the consensus seems to be that bulkier is the way to go here, so I think it will still be inferior to Shed Skin in that regard.

And if bulkier is the way to go, I would suggest a stat spread along the lines of Jibaku's suggestion and go with 100/100/90/65/110/75 (basically it's his spread with -10 SpD and +10 Spe for reasons outlined above).
PS: 136, Rank 5
PT: 157, Rank 6
SS: 96, Rank 3
ST: 187, Rank 8
ODB: -8.41, Moderately Defensive
PSB: 1.56, Slightly Physical
OR: 316, Rank 6
BST: 540

So spreads like 252 HP / 168 SpD/ 88 Spe, Careful could outrun defensive Suicune and Cresselia (lol) while as little as 4 Spe EVs can be used to outrun most Arghonaut, Vaporeon, and the like, all while getting a nice boost to overall bulk. You lose out just a bit on Jibaku's Cyclohm-inspired bulk, though, so that would be a matter of preference.

 

[Deck Knight]

This is only the case in a last Pokemon situation. Before then, it is a VERY bad idea to leave Rev in on Forretress, letting it put up it's own Spikes/Toxic Spikes against you. I would definitely switch out of Forretress one I was confident in the fact that it isn't going to Spin. Of course, unless you are absolutely desperate for a Steel type, I think Fidgit does Forry's job a lot better by virtue of the fact that it absorbs Toxic Spikes just by switching in, which is vital for keeping Arghonaut alive.

If we tweaked it so Taunt Rev was at least somewhat more viable, Taunted Forretress is worthless, and just set up fodder. You might even BU as they set up one lair of something to throw them off, then Taunt to block a second lair and score 2 BUs in the process.

Shadowstrike would be ridiculous in conjunction with Bulk Up, full stop. Rev already rips things to shreds, nevermind making its next attack deal 50% more damage 50% of the time.