np: UU - Can't Touch This

[Heysup]

Hey, jackasses, let's talk about taunt.

Alright then, dick.

I think it's the #1 anti meta move atm,

Not exactly sure it is the best, but I found this particularly interesting:

Froslass- UU (you guys way overestimate her, as you have consistently done).

If you think Taunt is the #1 move, why is Froslass (arguably the best Taunter in the metagame, possibly behind Zam) "overestimated"? I mean, Taunt isn't even the best thing about Froslass.

Anyway, can you expand on this? I am curious as to how Froslass is being overestimated (especially since it carries Taunt, and you have stated it is the #1 move).

Moltres- UU: It can be stopped despite the theorymon.

So can Rayquaza. So can Kyogre. So can <insert Uber Pokemon>. So can Gallade. So can Staraptor. So can Shaymin. So can <insert BL Pokemon>.

Being able to "stop" something is not an argument against its tiering. Especially not in the form of simply revenge killing, since that argument is clearly not valid as has been stated for at least a year now.

However I agree Moltres is UU (for now), because I believe the only reason it is "broken" is because of Froslass. It has 0, and I mean 0 safe switch-ins with Spikes support. It is at least containable without entry hazards.

Cress: BL: I have 2 absolute checks for it on my team and a well played cress STILL walls me all day long.

Mainly why I think SD on Absol is so important. Even simply Life Orb or Expert Belt. If you can get SD Absol in on Cresselia, you don't need to worry about anything; you will likely destroy their team (assuming they are stall). Though there are random SubCresselia and the like to worry about.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Mainly why I think SD on Absol is so important. Even simply Life Orb or Expert Belt. If you can get SD Absol in on Cresselia, you don't need to worry about anything; you will likely destroy their team.

It does however mean that you need a good back-up response to SubCM Cresselia, who will get the better of any Absol switching in most of the time. I was using one for a while before I got bored and quit, and that was one thing I noticed, that those teams relying on a Dark type sweeper to beat Cress were those most vulnerable to getting swept should that Pokemon fail. I would say that this kind of Cress is at least as dangerous as other similar Pokemon like Missy and Raikou if not more so, simply because it can viably go the other way with recovery to make checking it more uncertain. This is in addition to simultaneously worrying stall and having very few offensive checks, which the aforementioned two can't boast as much about.

I've also noticed more Moltres running Modest over Timid in this metagame. Not sure why, but it makes it quite a bit easier for CM Cress that's for sure. I'll see if things have changed much when I return to laddering at the end of the week.

 

[Bluewind]

Well, this turn I promissed myself I'd stop being a lazy person and actually take part on the voting process. Having laddered on an alt I've gotten to the following conclusions:

Froslass-Borderline. It's pretty much what Heysup said. I already saw it as a broken pokemon on the previous stage and now, with the removal of Gallade and Honchrow, two pokés that could arguably handle it, and with the addition of PZ and Cresselia, being the former mostly locked on Tri Attack, providing a free switch to Frossy and due to Cresselia being a huge fodder, whom Froslass just loves to split da pain with, considering that beautiful amount of HP Cresselia got. Added to that, it's taunt bait; being literally a sitting (or floating) duck.

Cresselia-Borderline. Really, no matter how much Drapion, Absol, Scyther, Clefable, Trick users etc etc are called rightful Cresselia counters, the smart Cresselia user will find ways to get around that, as all of these pokés have very viable counters. It has shitloads of supporting moves, can paralyze all of her said counters, shift burns, is only taking 50% from a CB pursuit from Drapion (I think), so it can just come in later on its plethora of resistances/immunities/moves that just tickle it because they aren't super effective and use Moonlight. Added to that it can setup screens, run Calm Mind sets that can arguably beat some of its said counters and added to all that has a base 85 Speed, very handy if the user takes a more offensive approach. I bet people will disagree, say I'm hyping all that, catch some mistake of mine when writing that, and in spite of the fact I do have the feeling I'm overhyping Cresselia, these are just some thoughts of mine.

Regarding Moltres, PZ and Raikou, I'm on the fence when it comes to all of them, even though I'm leaning towards deeming both Moltres and Raikou BL and PZ UU.

 

[M BLADE]

Should i say again... well... Umbreon to counter any kind of Cresselias?


Heysup, i disagree about the part of Moltres having no safe switch ins with Spikes on the field. Okay, little to no Milotic runs any sp.def... but Slowking often runs. And we all know how bulky Slowking is.
I could say Lapras could also counter Moltres... but it's weakness to Stealth Rock means that it's... not.
And we also have, finally, a UU poke... Regirock. Though it can't recover its health outside of Rest.


Anyway...

I need to run Skuntank rather often on my team... you can say "why not Drapion?". Simple, 2 things: Sucker Punch and Explosion. Also, Pursuiting ghosts is it's finest job, thanks to the ghost resist and neutrality to fighting attacks(Hidden Power?).
After, it can just Explode on anything you want/need to, since the ghost is probably gone from Skuntank's Pursuit.
As a plus, it has a little more attack than Drapion... not that much though.

 

[Heysup]

It does however mean that you need a good back-up response to SubCM Cresselia, who will get the better of any Absol switching in most of the time. I was using one for a while before I got bored and quit, and that was one thing I noticed, that those teams relying on a Dark type sweeper to beat Cress were those most vulnerable to getting swept should that Pokemon fail. I would say that this kind of Cress is at least as dangerous as other similar Pokemon like Missy and Raikou if not more so, simply because it can viably go the other way with recovery to make checking it more uncertain. This is in addition to simultaneously worrying stall and having very few offensive checks, which the aforementioned two can't boast as much about.

I completely agree here. I have been taken by surprise by fast SubCM Cresselia, though it doesn't have the "unbreakable" defenses that the bulkier set does, it is more of an offensive threat.

Thankfully I've only seen a handful of those....

Heysup, i disagree about the part of Moltres having no safe switch ins with Spikes on the field. Okay, little to no Milotic runs any sp.def... but Slowking often runs. And we all know how bulky Slowking is.

HP Grass vs Slowking: 37.5% - 44.3%

So it does 37.5 + 37.5 - 6.25 = 68.75% damage with two attacks, minimum. Now clearly, with Spikes and Stealth Rock, Slowking would be taking: 68.75 + 12.5 + 25 = 106.25%. That is not a safe switch in.

The safest 3 switch ins are Chansey (has a chance to survive Fire Blasts while also being able to survive any other attack), Azumarill (isn't OHKOed by any attack minus HP Grass, and can OHKO with Aqua Jet), and probably Milotic (similar to Azumarill, just can't switch into HP Grass).

However, they can still be beaten, so they are not "safe" by any means.

I could say Lapras could also counter Moltres... but it's weakness to Stealth Rock means that it's... not.
And we also have, finally, a UU poke... Regirock. Though it can't recover its health outside of Rest.

Lapras is OHKOed. Regirock is 2HKOed by Fire Blast + HP grass, so it can't safely switch in. If you're looking for a real counter, use Regirock in the sand with max SpD.

 

[Synre]

I really, really hate this period. I'm winning pretty consistently again(although I tanked the beginning of the period pretty good so recovering rating is taking forever with classes started up again...) but my team is just... I don't think I can actually play Pokemon with it. It does a really good job of beating up suspect heavy teams and has an amazing tendency to get absolutely thrashed by everything else because it has so many pokemon that just wouldn't be used otherwise. Out of the six pokemon on my team I have two suspects and four Pokemon I played 0 games with during the last testing period... it's kind of frustrating to have resorted to this. The percentage of my losses that come from random bad Pokemon I just don't have a reasonable counter for anymore is absurd.

I think we can almost all agree on Cresselia, and I can't wait for it to go so the metagame can shift toward something that resembles a game where balanced non-stall teams work consistently, so we can get a better grip on the other suspects. I haven't been super bothered by Raikou, Moltres(although having used it relentlessly for three periods now, I think it's about time we at least make sure it gets voted on this round), or Froslass this period, although I still really don't understand why Froslass and Raikou are still around to begin with. I'm a little surprised to see so many people feel Gon-Z is UU though. I think he deserves a chance to play in a game without Cresselia to see what his impact is, but even carrying Dugtrio on most of my teams this period for the easy revenge kill, I'm almost assured to have to sacrifice something in order to eliminate it, so I can only imagine what it is like to deal with some other teams(though I guess carrying both a Ghost and Steel type would help, as much as that would encourage the homogenization we're already getting from Cress). Speaking of that homogenization, I'm a little irritated by how similar most teams look right now. The extent to which teams are centralized in Creselliuu is just uncanny.

I wish I could talk more about Froslass, but I stopped using it this period since the biggest perceived threats this period don't care all that much about Spikes from offensive teams anyway. It sure was making my life easy before the changes to the ladder though, so I'm sure once Cress is gone crying will commence...

I love seeing all this talk about Moltres though. I'm not sure if it's just because there's always been bigger fish(chickens?) to fry but it's been so stunning offensively for so long... though I kind of like the fact it exists. It seems like we have this tendency to remove all the powerful special attackers, with the direction we seem to be heading Moltres and Gonz will go but we'll keep all the Pokemon that wall special attackers, including them, to some level, like Chansey and the Regis and Milotic. Interesting...

Raikou is still my favorite Pokemon(even though I don't have room for it right now either...), but as adorable as it is sitting in my theoretical box I'm still not sure why I can still use it. At least it's a fun Pokemon, I guess. I'll be abstaining on him assuming I bother to vote this period though... a little too biased.

As far as the cool suspect checklist everyone is posting, right now I really just want to get rid of Cresselia so I can re-evaluate on a level playing field, but I think at the very least Froslass and Gonz are going to end up packing their bags.

 

[M BLADE]

Okay, i was about to make a reply for Heysup, but the damn computer reseted for some reason...

So to resume: Despite having some gimmicky counters(Munchlax, Grumpig... MAGCARGO lol), Moltres with LO and Modest nature is potent, no doubt about that, but there's counters for it.
Flash Fire pokes for example. Ninetales being the safest one with more defenses overall and option of HP Rock to hit Fire pokes(Moltres is KOed ligically)

Slowking checks it pretty well. You need too much things to try and KO Slowking with two consecutive HP Grasses. It's unlikely. Possible, but unlikely.

Lapras isn't OHKOed.
With max hp/max sp.def, Lapras takes 43.5% - 51.3%. A somewhat low chance of OHKO. That's assuming SR and 3 layers of spikes. Curse Lapras can have this kind of ev spread(or even a special tank with Boltbeam and RestTalk).
With the Boltbeamer one, Lapras also isn't OHKOed even with SR on the field. A SR and one layer of Spikes is enough(though barely enough).
It isn't a counter(like i said), but definitivately Lapras isn't OHKOed by Moltres.

Well, that's it. I Can't remeber anything of what i wrote before the damn computer let me down...


Um... Umbreon counters any Cresselia? Okay, we all get it lol

 

[Bluewind]

The percentage of my losses that come from random bad Pokemon I just don't have a reasonable counter for anymore is absurd.

That's IMO the worst part of this metagame. It is impossible not to make a team that has some kind of glaring weakness, getting to the point you think to yourself as the match begins: "Ok, if that guy has pokémon X, isn't running a gimmick set on it and isn't braindead he's gonna beat me."

 

[Heysup]

Okay, i was about to make a reply for Heysup, but the damn computer reseted for some reason...

So to resume: Despite having some gimmicky counters(Munchlax, Grumpig... MAGCARGO lol), Moltres with LO and Modest nature is potent, no doubt about that, but there's counters for it.
Flash Fire pokes for example. Ninetales being the safest one with more defenses overall and option of HP Rock to hit Fire pokes(Moltres is KOed ligically)

Slowking checks it pretty well. You need too much things to try and KO Slowking with two consecutive HP Grasses. It's unlikely. Possible, but unlikely.

Lapras isn't OHKOed.
With max hp/max sp.def, Lapras takes 43.5% - 51.3%. A somewhat low chance of OHKO. That's assuming SR and 3 layers of spikes. Curse Lapras can have this kind of ev spread(or even a special tank with Boltbeam and RestTalk).
With the Boltbeamer one, Lapras also isn't OHKOed even with SR on the field. A SR and one layer of Spikes is enough(though barely enough).
It isn't a counter(like i said), but definitivately Lapras isn't OHKOed by Moltres.

Well, that's it. I Can't remeber anything of what i wrote before the damn computer let me down...


Um... Umbreon counters any Cresselia? Okay, we all get it lol

Again, you have not shown a single safe switch (Munchlax might have a shot, I'm honestly not going to calc it because of the fact that "Munchlax is Munchlax).

Ninetales cannot switch into Air Slash, Lapras still isn't a safe switch.

There are "best switches", but really there are no "safe switches" since it can seriously 2HKO the entire Metagame that is slower, and OHKO the entire metagame that is faster. The mons it can't 1-2HKO usually can't do anything back to it either (SpD Altaria, for example).

Once again, I think we have Froslass to blame for this, not Moltres.

 

[Nas]

Well I just made it to #1 with my Dual Screens offense team so I think its safe to say that stall isnt the only good playstyle out there. In fact, its as Bluewind said, there are too many threats to counter with stall, so maybe going for an offensive approach is the best choice in this metagame.

 

[M BLADE]

If you blame Froslass... use Ninetales (not Nnetails lol) to beat both.

I said Lapras isn't a counter if you got SR on field... i just posted that Lapras ins't even close to being OHKOed by Moltres, even with many set up hazards. Without any, Lapras can counter Moltres.

You can't really count with SR AND Spikes on the field. A single Foresight Hitmontop can deal with entrey hazards no matter what... or once your ghosts are gone, any Rapid Spinner can.

That said, if you got only SR on the field( or only Spikes), Air Slash isn't a OHKO(that if you use Air Slash on the switch... anything else is nothing) on Ninetales, who can HP Rock/Nasty Plot/Hypnosis right after depending on the set.

And those gimmicks i listed CAN take Moltres attacks(Munchlax and Grumpig with high sp.def and Thick Fat, while Magcargo resists Fire Blast and Air Slash while being neutral to HP Grass, and can Recover it's health... it only needs some sp.def investiment).

A fun fact:
When i used Modest LO Magmortar, Regice took a Modest Fire Blast with plenty to spare... two times. Plenty enough for not being OHKOed even with SR on the field(Magmortar's Fire Blast=Moltres). What's up with that lol


Anyway: i still dislike Arcanine way more than Moltres...


Hmm... gotta play a little. Who's dominating now(in terms of usage)?

 

[Rolf]

As I've posted before, sand really has no trouble with the current OU dropdowns and really the suspects in general.

Cresselia: Moonlight only heals 25%, spD boosts for Rock types
Porygonz: SpD boosts for Rock types + resist Tri-Attack
Moltres: SpD boosts, resist Fire, hates ss + LO damage and SR
Froslass: No Snow Cloak, breaks sashes if they have them, SpD boosts
Raikou: SpD boosts, sub + ss or LO + ss
-----
Venusaur: SD can be annoying, but hippo sponges sleep well :P SpD boosts could help, Synthesis only gains 25% health

Also quite obvious is the the special trend of the suspects - All of them generally use special-attacking movesets.

 

[itsbigfoot]

cresselia's gotta go, that's the only thing i know for certain.

I also deeply hate milotic for it's ability to wall just about everything, and hit back reasonably hard, but I think Cresselia is significantly worse at the moment. plus, milotic can't take a hit from Z or raikou, so that's been helping, but if they go it needs to be suspect

 

[franky]

Well I just made it to #1 with my Dual Screens offense team so I think its safe to say that stall isnt the only good playstyle out there. In fact, its as Bluewind said, there are too many threats to counter with stall, so maybe going for an offensive approach is the best choice in this metagame.

This is defenitley the best style of play right now. I incorporated phil's latest team style of play in UU. Seriously though, bulky sweepers under dual screens support seriously destroy the entire metagame. This style of play rarely loses. My only issue with this style of play is Encore users and Trick users who screw up Uxie. Other than that, bulky screens is defenitely the style of play to look for. Although I don't plan on playing this team extensively on the ladder, I'll keep it for later when Cresselia is gone so people don't mirror my matches :D

 

[Heysup]

Well I just made it to #1 with my Dual Screens offense team so I think its safe to say that stall isnt the only good playstyle out there. In fact, its as Bluewind said, there are too many threats to counter with stall, so maybe going for an offensive approach is the best choice in this metagame.

I agree 100% with this. When I see stall, I'm almost always carrying one or two Pokemon that they just cannot handle because they need to prepare so much for other threats. Spikes are also hard for stall to play against imo.

I haven't personally had trouble with DS offense though >.>

 

[Banedon]

However I agree Moltres is UU (for now), because I believe the only reason it is "broken" is because of Froslass. It has 0, and I mean 0 safe switch-ins with Spikes support. It is at least containable without entry hazards.

Er ... Uxie and Cresselia? 3 layers of spikes still won't do anything to them.

And I completely stopped playing because I didn't want to deal with Cresselia >_<

 

[IK.]

Er ... Uxie and Cresselia? 3 layers of spikes still won't do anything to them.

And I completely stopped playing because I didn't want to deal with Cresselia >_<

Modest Life Orb Fire Blast 2HKO's them both.

 

[Smurf.]

This is defenitley the best style of play right now. I incorporated phil's latest team style of play in UU. Seriously though, bulky sweepers under dual screens support seriously destroy the entire metagame. This style of play rarely loses. My only issue with this style of play is Encore users and Trick users who screw up Uxie. Other than that, bulky screens is defenitely the style of play to look for. Although I don't plan on playing this team extensively on the ladder, I'll keep it for later when Cresselia is gone so people don't mirror my matches :D

Franky's spot on, bulky offence under screens is just unbelievably difficult to topple, especially with a team focused on synergy. I used trickroom's synergetic stall team (which he graciously let me use - but stall isnt for me) and tweaked the sets to be bulky yet offensive. It works remarkably well in this metagame, but would definitely be better post-cress. Cruised to around ~ 1450 before i temporarily retired it.

 

[franky]

I disagree with people saying stall is not viable in this metagame. Although offensive more preferred, stall has always been viable. In the previous metagame, stall was also "less effective" when a plethora of offensive threats dropped down to UU. However, stall easily regained the title of best style of play in the previous metagame even with all those offensive threats (especially Honchkrow). Why? its because people adjusted to the metagame. Its very easy to run stall, you just have to adjust. I can see where Bluewind is coming from though, checking some prominent threats (running two) leaves you naked to some underrated threats.

 

[Nas]

This is defenitley the best style of play right now. I incorporated phil's latest team style of play in UU. Seriously though, bulky sweepers under dual screens support seriously destroy the entire metagame. This style of play rarely loses. My only issue with this style of play is Encore users and Trick users who screw up Uxie. Other than that, bulky screens is defenitely the style of play to look for. Although I don't plan on playing this team extensively on the ladder, I'll keep it for later when Cresselia is gone so people don't mirror my matches :D

lol I got the team idea from phil's too. Honestly the only pokemon I've had trouble with is encore clefable, seeing as I have four stat up users and and Uxie that can't do anything back. -_- But for the most part its easy to play around, so long as you boost up before it comes in.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Definitely agree with the "random pokemon sweep me" shit. I think I've told this story to a few other people before, but I thought I made an exceedingly good anti-metagame team, and I had huge winning streak with it...and then I got swept by an RP Torterra. Yes, an RP Torterra. That's when I said "fuck it" and just went back to my old team. Which, incidentally, still managed to get me to top 5 somehow...

 

[Wikey]

Yeah, I went on a small rant in the server chat about how trying to plan for Cress and PZ opens you up to "stupid shit". And basically everyone called me a baby. But honestly, my team before Cress and PZ would never have been swept by a BD Linoone.

 

[Godsend]

Yeah, I went on a small rant in the server chat about how trying to plan for Cress and PZ opens you up to "stupid shit". And basically everyone called me a baby. But honestly, my team before Cress and PZ would never have been swept by a BD Linoone.

Did you play igutsurbacon? Because he has swept me with that thing so many times. lol

 

[Sonneh]

just a quick observation, the top dogs are losing usage. venusaur is guaranteed to drop usage. arcanine has lost its shine right now. with the tendancy to check stat up boosters in this metagame, people lean away from arcanine and venusaur since they really can't do much to them in return.

 

[EvilMario]

just a quick observation, the top dogs are losing usage. venusaur is guaranteed to drop usage. arcanine has lost its shine right now. with the tendancy to check stat up boosters in this metagame, people lean away from arcanine and venusaur since they really can't do much to them in return.

They'll still be used significantly, but the game is obvious changed. Uxie, Cresselia, Drapion/Absol/Spiritomb, Moltres, Raikou and Dugtrio seem to be on every team. Porygon-Z makes an appearance every few battles as well, but it really seems to the focus is Cress. Pressure Pokemon seem to be a great way of taking down her Moon Light PPs (Calm Mind Raikou has been very effective), while Dugtrio usage seems to be up to deal with the likes of Raikou, Drapion and Absol (don't forget your Substitute, Dugtrio!)

I think we'll see another huge shift if and when Cresselia in a week and a half, is voted BL. Without having to central entire teams around her, we'll truly see just how effective Porygon-Z is in a more 'standard' and 'open' environment.