np: UU - Can't Touch This

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

@ Golden Sun

It really depends, I'm pretty sure Cresselia is 3HKOd without Moonlight by any special sweeper with Surf. Well anyways, on one occasion, I have 2HKOd Chansey with Surf and Hydro Pump the following turn with Stealth Rock down. The fact that the best special wall in the tier falls to someone like Gorybyss is insane.

Rain Dance is pretty much an easy team to use, and most players play it with autopilot meaning they know which move to use everytime. Surf, Waterfall, Aqua Jet, Hydro Pump. Resisted or non-resisted its going to hurt. I've beaten some prolific UU battlers with rain dance alone with minimal thinking. I'm not trying to brag, but I seriously think Rain Dance is broken. I will post my team here and i encourage people to try it out on the ladder and tell me how easy you guys win it.

Ambipom / Uxie / gorbyss / SD kabutops / SD Ludicolo / SD Qwilfish

Ambipom has Taunt / Rain Dance / U-turn / fake out (252 HP / 4 Def / 252 spe)
uxie has U-turn / rain dance / psychic / Stealth Rock (evs to outpace jolly toxicroak)

the rest are basic 252/252. try it out.

Just a basic concept with this: overwhelm special walls with sd sweepers, making a clear path for gorbyss to sweep.

You have a fair argument against Rain Dance, but as you and others have said, it is a much trickier situation than anything else as to what exactly should be placed as suspect. If anything (hypothetical: I'm not saying that Rain actually is broken right now), I would be in favor of Damp Rock, just to keep Rain itself and all the key players a viable option but hopefully manageable enough to not be broken.

I'm just wondering about your team though: what is your check/plan for Shedinja? Uxie just doesn't cut it the way Registeel does, particularly without Toxic, and Stealth Rock doesn't help because Sheddy can just switch in on the same turn with impunity and SD up. Out of your four sweepers, only Kabutops commonly carries a move that can hit it, and has to be sacrificed to break the Sash.

I'm only saying because I have recently been using a Shedinja team for a bit of fun, as I have grown a bit tired of my old Cresselia team that gave me a 90% win rate.

 

[M BLADE]

I just battled against a RD team
And the opposite happened... the opponent that used the RD team is that rage quitted lol

It really depends of the team. You don't expect to slap the same 6 pokes(Electrode/Ludicolo/Gorebyss or Omastar/Kabutops/Qwilfish and someone else) and expect it to work if you don't know how to play.
Who would switch Omastar in instead of Ludicolo against a Golduck? Unless the person doesn't know that Golduck is a menace to RD teams...


RD teams are powerful, but they are mostly powerful against the standard teams nowadays(that aren't prepared for RD). If you want your team to beat RD teams without slapping pokes that would be a burden against normal teams, you have to... be creative.
Either with the standard pokes but with a little twist(Sunny Day Moltres switching on the right time for example? Or Toxicroak) or perfectly placing a poke that can defeat/cripple RD teams(like said Golduck) without being just a "added poke" in the team(in my case, Golduck is really important on my team as my Encorer and CM sweeper that doesn't die at any priority attack like Alakazam).

 

[Golden Sun]

a very underrated way of dealing with RD team's is dual screen's. Bring out the Dual screener on the Rain Dancer and set up screen's

 

[Gregers_Likes_Pie]

Is it just me or are both Shuckle (under sandstorm support) and Shedinja (with rapid spin) very good in this metagame atm.

Shuckle walls Raikou/Cress/P-Z to hell, and mostly I've found that the main pokes in UU (except dark pulsing p-z, mismagius and spiritomb) unable to hit shedinja.

Any thoughts?

 

[franky]

You have a fair argument against Rain Dance, but as you and others have said, it is a much trickier situation than anything else as to what exactly should be placed as suspect. If anything (hypothetical: I'm not saying that Rain actually is broken right now), I would be in favor of Damp Rock, just to keep Rain itself and all the key players a viable option but hopefully manageable enough to not be broken.

I'm just wondering about your team though: what is your check/plan for Shedinja? Uxie just doesn't cut it the way Registeel does, particularly without Toxic, and Stealth Rock doesn't help because Sheddy can just switch in on the same turn with impunity and SD up. Out of your four sweepers, only Kabutops commonly carries a move that can hit it, and has to be sacrificed to break the Sash.

I'm only saying because I have recently been using a Shedinja team for a bit of fun, as I have grown a bit tired of my old Cresselia team that gave me a 90% win rate.

I have never faced Shedinja yet thankfully, and my past teams had trouble with it as well. Thankfully though, its rare. I'll probably scare it away with Kabutops and hope to get Stealth Rock down later. I could see it being annoying though.

You raise a good point about Damp Rock, maybe we it should be up for discussion. I guess it would make rain dance teams viable, but making them less dangerous. however, its still doesn't change the fact that they hit hard. (but 5 turns is a good change).

 

[YaM]

a very underrated way of dealing with RD team's is dual screen's. Bring out the Dual screener on the Rain Dancer and set up screen's

Sure but unless your DSer is Alakazam you'll be Taunted by Electrode/Ambipom...

Also I found that for RD it's good to conserve your Kabutops.... You don't want a late-game SD Absol plowing through your team.... also note after an SD Kabtops OHKOs Toxicroak with Stone Edge 100% (actually 80% ><) so don't blindly switch Croak in.

GLP what about Absol/Swellow/Moltres/Drapion?

 

[Smurf.]

You raise a good point about Damp Rock, maybe we it should be up for discussion. I guess it would make rain dance teams viable, but making them less dangerous. however, its still doesn't change the fact that they hit hard. (but 5 turns is a good change).

It's really only 4 turns, since ambipom and uxie have to uturn out, and regi has to explode. That would make it alot more manageable. What about heat rock for sunny day teams? If Rain was to be limited it seems only fair to do the same to Sun.

 

[Scoopapa]

Registeel + Uxie is a pretty solid Rain set-up duo... but you can't really lead with either...

This is why, counter-intuitively, Su(b)perior is one of my most important pokes when I play against Rain teams. It can usually get a sub against Uxie or Registeel (If you're slower he can't use Explosion to break your sub either). After he gets his sub up he can OHKO a lot of Rain sweepers (not Gorebyss). If you have something to take water attacks, you can use him again the next time they try to set up and often score another KO. I suppose Aggron could do the same thing.

 

[Gregers_Likes_Pie]

In addition to my last post:

I just put together a quick team of:

Regirock, SR/Explosion/Rock Slide/Thunder Wave
Uxie, Light Screen/Reflect/U-Turn/Yawn
Hitmontop, Foresight/Rapid Spin/Fake Out/Mach Punch
Scyther, Aerial Ace/U-Turn/Pursuit/Quick Attack
Shuckle, Toxic/Knock Off/Rest/Encore
Shedinja, X-Scissor/WOW/SD/Shadow Sneak

This triple bug technique seems to be working very very very well!

G_L_P

 

[Stallion]

That triple bug technique above is useless, seeing as they don't have the same counters like "Double Dragon" and if Hitmontop dies then your team is buttfucked by residual damage. Errm anyway, on the subject of Cresselia and PorygonZ I'm really on the fence with both of them. I've easily swept with both of them with alarming regularity, especially PorygonZ. Having said that, I've never been swept by either of them, or even been forced to play around them. Maybe its just because the average standard of UU battlers is lower then OU due to a smaller playing pool or maybe it is my team design but either way, this contradictory evidence has left me undecided about both.

 

[PK Gaming]

It's really only 4 turns, since ambipom and uxie have to uturn out, and regi has to explode. That would make it alot more manageable. What about heat rock for sunny day teams? If Rain was to be limited it seems only fair to do the same to Sun.

Sun isn't anywhere near as effective as Rain though. I mean I don't think we can quite compare them as Rain is CLEARLY more effective. (The pokemon that utilize the sun for a power boost and the pokemon that utilize the sun for a speed boost are not one in the same. The same cannot be said about RD teams)

I saw Sunny Day teams get to keep heatrock.

 

[d2m]

Would like to note that SubPunch/Taunt Toxicroak is an amazing rain counter. Come in on a locked Surf or any Ludicolo, they switch, you sub and either substall the rain out (thanks to dry skin + Lefties negating the damage) or Focus Punch them into oblivion. Taunt prevents Uxie (who walls him despite SE Sucker Punch) and Registeel (who's OHKO'd anyway, but still) from setting up RD again.

 

[YaM]

Would like to note that SubPunch/Taunt Toxicroak is an amazing rain counter. Come in on a locked Surf or any Ludicolo, they switch, you sub and either substall the rain out (thanks to dry skin + Lefties negating the damage) or Focus Punch them into oblivion. Taunt prevents Uxie (who walls him despite SE Sucker Punch) and Registeel (who's OHKO'd anyway, but still) from setting up RD again.

So the last move is Sucker Punch right? Most Ludicolo would still Ice Beam/Ice Punch you anyway, Gorebyss Psychics, Omastar Earth Powers, Qwilfish Explodes. Uxie can run speed to outspeed you and OHKO with Zen Headbutt or Psychic before you Taunt.

 

[d2m]

So the last move is Sucker Punch right? Most Ludicolo would still Ice Beam/Ice Punch you anyway, Gorebyss Psychics, Omastar Earth Powers, Qwilfish Explodes. Uxie can run speed to outspeed you and OHKO with Zen Headbutt or Psychic before you Taunt.

The point is that most RD teams will switch to Uxie or something that can handle a hit from Croak. On the switch, you sub. If Ludicolo Ice Beams, you sub afterwards (still have plenty of HP) then FP him to death. Gorebyss you don't want to come in on unless it's choiced, Omastar rarely carries earth power (in my experience) and Quilfish is the one RD sweeper that has no problems with croak due to not only resisting fighting, but being able to hit him with Return and Explosion.

The point is that Uxie switches in on you, then you taunt him while he breaks your sub, then you have a very weak attacker to set up on, especially something like SD Absol.

Also, like I said, he can take anything but a Psychic/Earth Power from any RD sweeper and still set up a sub and substall as long as the rain is out. (same thing as Stallrein except rain isn't permanent, but it nullifies their advantage).

 

[YaM]

Well, I pretty much agree with the scenario if Uxie switches in. The main thing is that Rain teams do not switch out to handle a hit from Toxicroak, they switch out to bring something that can kill it in. If that thing can't handle a hit they'lll probably sacrifice whoever is in anyway. Swords Dance Ludicolo hits Toxicroak with Ice Punch (min 71%) so you might not be able to set up a sub. Also Toxicroak is often said to be able to counter Kabutops but when you come in on an SD, Stone Edge OHKOs.

 

[d2m]

Well, I pretty much agree with the scenario if Uxie switches in. The main thing is that Rain teams do not switch out to handle a hit from Toxicroak, they switch out to bring something that can kill it in. If that thing can't handle a hit they'lll probably sacrifice whoever is in anyway. Swords Dance Ludicolo hits Toxicroak with Ice Punch (min 71%) so you might not be able to set up a sub. Also Toxicroak is often said to be able to counter Kabutops but when you come in on an SD, Stone Edge OHKOs.

Firstly, I have never seen a SD Ludicolo. Never, and I've actually been playing on the ladder this time and faced many a rain team.

Secondly, you should always run HP EVs instead of max attack. I have them split 100/152 HP/Atk respectively atm, but I could go different, the current spread means my subs can never be broken by the Haze/HP Grass Milos running around. My version takes (61.47% - 72.48%) from a +2 Ice Punch, and since Dry Skin makes up for the SR damage, I can switch into SD then still beat it. You, of course, don't want to switch into a Kabutops while it SDs, but Stone Edge has a 50/50 chance (ok ~53%) of OHKOing, but you won't be able to do much back to it thanks to the fact you'd have to Sucker Punch it twice for minimal damage.

 

[Masked King]

It's really only 4 turns, since ambipom and uxie have to uturn out, and regi has to explode.

Actually three turns, the turn you use rain dance burns a turn, and getting a sweeper in burns another. I don't think it's worth it at that point, but then again, people do you use trick room teams lol

 

[mite b cool]

I have been using Pinsir with Dual Screen and paralysis support from Rotom and i must say i'm impressed, its ability to break common walls such as Slowbro, Cresselia, and Registeel is fantastic. the set i use is SD/ X-Scissor/ EQ and Stone Edge @ Lum Berry.

Thoughts on Pinsir? Is it outclassed by Scyther?

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I have been using Pinsir with Dual Screen and paralysis support from Rotom and i must say i'm impressed, its ability to break common walls such as Slowbro, Cresselia, and Registeel is fantastic. the set i use is SD/ X-Scissor/ EQ and Stone Edge @ Lum Berry.

Thoughts on Pinsir? Is it outclassed by Scyther?

I would say no because of Mold Breaker, but the only wall you listed that you would use Earthquake on is hit by it regardless, so I'm not sure. You don't have the Flying type, though, so you aren't weak to Cressy's Ice Beam.

 

[dbcb]

you also aren't raped by SR when you come in

I don't think its outclassed... just two different bug types. Pinsir has a much different move pool as well

people throw out the word outclassed too much

 

[Force Majeure]

I have been using Pinsir with Dual Screen and paralysis support from Rotom and i must say i'm impressed, its ability to break common walls such as Slowbro, Cresselia, and Registeel is fantastic. the set i use is SD/ X-Scissor/ EQ and Stone Edge @ Lum Berry.

Thoughts on Pinsir? Is it outclassed by Scyther?

I would say definitely not. Pinsir is more defensive than Scyther and lacks Scyther's Electric-And-Ice-Type weaknesses. I also find that a spinner, although helpful, is not completely necessary for Pinsir to work out, whereas it is, in my opinion, with Scyther. Mold Breaker is a bonus, and Earthquake is just an excellent attack to have.

 

[EvilMario]

Firstly, I have never seen a SD Ludicolo. Never, and I've actually been playing on the ladder this time and faced many a rain team.

Secondly, you should always run HP EVs instead of max attack. I have them split 100/152 HP/Atk respectively atm, but I could go different, the current spread means my subs can never be broken by the Haze/HP Grass Milos running around. My version takes (61.47% - 72.48%) from a +2 Ice Punch, and since Dry Skin makes up for the SR damage, I can switch into SD then still beat it. You, of course, don't want to switch into a Kabutops while it SDs, but Stone Edge has a 50/50 chance (ok ~53%) of OHKOing, but you won't be able to do much back to it thanks to the fact you'd have to Sucker Punch it twice for minimal damage.

Ludicolo ran Swords Dance 20.2% of the time in December, and nearly equal that running max attack. It is a fantastic Swords Dancer, because it can obliterate Special Walls that think they can safely take one Rain boosted hit.

Toxicroak is a good check to some Rain Dance sweepers though, and he actually pairs well on a Rain Dance team himself, because of his able to provide another physical threat, and a check to many Pokemon like Defensive Milotic.

 

[EvilMario]

Is it just me or are both Shuckle (under sandstorm support) and Shedinja (with rapid spin) very good in this metagame atm.

Shuckle walls Raikou/Cress/P-Z to hell, and mostly I've found that the main pokes in UU (except dark pulsing p-z, mismagius and spiritomb) unable to hit shedinja.

Any thoughts?

It requires a lot of maintenance, and Spinning can be a pain with Spiritomb (and to a lesser extent, Rotom and Mismagius) everywhere. Freely being able to switch into things like Raikou, Cresselia and Venusaur are nice.. but I would never switch into Porygon-Z, who has a high chance of throwing across Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball, and doesn't mind Will-O-Wisp, and can't be hit by a boosted Shadow Sneak.

 

[Heysup]

Sorry to burst everyone's bubble, but Shedinja is a gimmick, and always will be.

A gimmick is something that is basically a "will get you once" type of Pokemon. This is because gimmicks are either never seen or because they are never used (usually because they are bad).

That is exactly what Shedinja is. If you aren't expecting it (which you're not), you may have trouble with it the first time you see it since you will definitely not have prepared for it.

However, I don't think Shedinja is a good gimmick at all in this metagame (in particular). Stealth Rock is very common because of its ability to deal with Moltres and Froslass, while actually being able to hit Cresselia. Additionally, many Pokemon are either running a Dark or Ghost-type attack to hit Cresselia with, and those attacks will deal with Shedinja as well.

I wouldn't use it -_-

 

[Sir Azelf]

Physical Toxicroak is honestly a "meh" rain check.

The special sets (i like specs, but the NPer works well) with Vacuum Wave are much better at that since it prays on the lower special defense of most rain dance sweepers and can actually bypass getting OHKO'd by Kabutops due to being able to snag it with V-Wave before it gets a chance to stone edge. V-Wave also stops Omastar well and Sludge Bomb hits the rest such as Ludicolo, Gorebyss etc hard and the only thing on Rain Dance teams that resists Poison/Fighting swift swimmer wise is pretty much Qwilfish who doesnt like Shadow Balls/Dark Pulses.