Raikou was deemed UU because it can be walled and stopped by a devoted special wall, revenged with priority, or trapped and killed by the likes of Dugtrio. Raikou is a frail, speedy sweeper without recovery, whereas Cresselia has 120/130/120 defenses (guess, don't remember exactly), reliable recovery, and is much slower. They're really two different Pokemon and shouldn't be compared in this discussion, at least imo. The only thing they have in common is that they both use Calm Mind to set up.
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np: UU - Can't Touch This
- Thread starter reachzero
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They share the same base Attack (base 95).
I wouldn't exactly call Raikou frail, but I agree with the fact they aren't comparable.
Really, the thing about Cress is that it just sits there taking hits like nothing. No, it's not unbeatable - Scyther, Absol, Drapion, CM Mismagius, Umbreon, and Encore Clefable are all viable choices for a team - but the fact remains that just about anything else loses. In a tier with ~60 pokemon in it, beating ~50 of them is quite overpowering IMO.
CM Cress has been hailed as the most broken set, and while it has certainly been amazing, I can't say that it's broken yet. The problem is that it has to choose between Substitute, Recovery, or coverage. Choosing any one of them opens up a new set of counters.
So I've actually reevaluated my opinion - I think we should give Cress the full 6 weeks before Judgement day.
i also agree with ToF, i just started UU again and Cress hasn't been doing much. and for the people who say cress is the best member on stall, ive been running stall it was the first poke i replaced. Obviously stall doesn't need cresselia.
On another note, PZ is a monster, but neither are broken
On another note, PZ is a monster, but neither are broken
Hmm, confused with it's speed...
As for the UU / BL disscussion, at the moment i'm on the UU side. It can't set up on as nearly as much Pokemon as Raikou can and is nearly always immediately threatened by a wide variety of Pokemon as soon as it tries setting up. Strong Physical pokemon such as Scyther, Absol and Drapion (who all get SE STAB against Cress) easily scare it away whilst on the Special side, pokemon such as Raikou, Spiritomb and Migmagius can boost along side Cress. To name some, bulky pokemon like Chansey, Milotic, Moltres, Blastoise, Registeel and even Steelix wall Cresselia with Toxic, Haze, Psych Up or just by PP. As most of you know, there are a whole lot more that I havn't even mentioned that can successfully counter or even check Cresselia. Its only real chances of set up is if it comes in on Fighting Pokemon such as Hitmontop or Blaziken (Who I admit are running amock, but because of there STAB Priority moves that KO Dark type Pokemon such as Absol and Houndoom) or a Pokemon stuck on one move. Even Donphan can screw Cress around with Assurance if it lacks Moonlight. Cresselia is just too easily threatened.
That wasn't the point of my comparison.
I was comparing their overall "BLness", not directly comparing them. The case for them both is: "do they set up easy enough to actually be BL?". Regardless of specific factors, both of their results are comparable. Cresselia can set up on about 14/56 common Pokemon, and Raikou (last metagame) could set up on 22/50 common Pokemon. That is why I don't think it particularly makes sense to make a fuss over Cresselia's Calm Mind set, because Raikou, according to this theorymon, sets up on more Pokemon and sweeps more easily.
@ the people saying Cresselia can beat 60% (I also saw 85%) of the metagame: Please explain. I have seen this too much to simply ignore it, because if that was true then my theorymon (which included calculations) would be flawed, and I don't see any glaring mistakes that would change my 25% to a whopping 60%.
I find the most frustrating aspect of Cresselia is that when facing one, foreknowledge is of utmost importance. I've had several battles where an opposing Cresselia was their last stand and CMed to victory. If a rematch were to occur, I would have to remain extremely vigilant on my Cress "counter" or "check."
The most terrifying thing about Cresselia, I believe, is her versatility and ease of use in this tier. She is great as a dual screener, status inducer, and has trick/lunar dance/etc. When facing a new Cresselia, you must quickly recognize if it's physical or specially defensive, or if it's built with speed to defeat some of its weaker counters. She doesn't have a glaring weakness, tho there are dark types that can threaten her. There is no doubt this is the closet pokemon we've encountered in UU to the defensive BL characteristic.
Umbreon is a decent check to Cresselia, and is actually a good parallel to her. Her curse/wish/heal bell/payback set is bulky enough to walk a good portion of the metagame and slowly ensure a sweep. However, there are some relevant differences. Levitate allows Cress to effectively switch in on the ever common EQ and prevent it from taking Spikes damage. Two 120 BP moves, Superpower and CC, can quickly shut down Umbreon, despite one or two Curses. In contrast, answers to Cresselia include, Nightslash, Pursuit, U-Turn, non-stab Megahorn, and a variety of SE special attacks that are watered down quickly from CM.
Cresselia has a decent movepool and it's important not to theorymon 6 moveslot terrors. There are definitely answers to Cresselia. But I believe these answers are shaky and cannot easily and effectively exterminate Cresselia without foreknowledge. Once the EV spread and moveset are revealed, Cresselia becomes a tangible target. Perhaps players are using her poorly, like a sponge the way Uxie can be played. I've countlessly been swept by last standing Cress and that is where her strength lies.
I believe she's the closest thing to defensive uber we've seen.
Oh and Moltres + Spikes is broken.
The most terrifying thing about Cresselia, I believe, is her versatility and ease of use in this tier. She is great as a dual screener, status inducer, and has trick/lunar dance/etc. When facing a new Cresselia, you must quickly recognize if it's physical or specially defensive, or if it's built with speed to defeat some of its weaker counters. She doesn't have a glaring weakness, tho there are dark types that can threaten her. There is no doubt this is the closet pokemon we've encountered in UU to the defensive BL characteristic.
Umbreon is a decent check to Cresselia, and is actually a good parallel to her. Her curse/wish/heal bell/payback set is bulky enough to walk a good portion of the metagame and slowly ensure a sweep. However, there are some relevant differences. Levitate allows Cress to effectively switch in on the ever common EQ and prevent it from taking Spikes damage. Two 120 BP moves, Superpower and CC, can quickly shut down Umbreon, despite one or two Curses. In contrast, answers to Cresselia include, Nightslash, Pursuit, U-Turn, non-stab Megahorn, and a variety of SE special attacks that are watered down quickly from CM.
Cresselia has a decent movepool and it's important not to theorymon 6 moveslot terrors. There are definitely answers to Cresselia. But I believe these answers are shaky and cannot easily and effectively exterminate Cresselia without foreknowledge. Once the EV spread and moveset are revealed, Cresselia becomes a tangible target. Perhaps players are using her poorly, like a sponge the way Uxie can be played. I've countlessly been swept by last standing Cress and that is where her strength lies.
I believe she's the closest thing to defensive uber we've seen.
Oh and Moltres + Spikes is broken.
to be honest so far i havent found cress to be that much of a problem to my team and neither raikou. So far the most broken thing i have seen is kabutops In rain hes got a huge amount of speed, STAB on waterfall/AquaJet/StoneEdge and can get around priority be aquajet and waterfall under rain can 2hKO a huge amount of UU and can OKHO most of it after a SD along with having a huge speed under rain along with the boost waterfall/Aquajet gets from rain (kabutops in rain after a SD against a standerd registeel 98.9% - 116.5% guranteed ko with SR)
Well rain teams in general are so dominating in UU at the moment with 4 main powerhouse sweepers (ludicolo, omastar, kabutops and quilfish) and the type coverage each of these gets along with pokes such as uxie and ambipom to set up rain and the main counters to rain are fairly easerly delt with as toxicroak is delt with by omastars earth power if registeel comes in it will be taking 80% damage form a surf by either ludi or oma by them time it thunder waves one odds are it wil lbe taking atleast 1 more surf at its sets up SR or trys to kill it and chancy gets hurt by a well placed ludi focus punch or either kabutops or quilfish jsut uses a physical attack on it and by the time one of the sweepers came in a crippled the counters to rain and so many teams are unprepaird and dont even carry a counter
IMO from what ive seen rain dance need to be BL somehow
Well rain teams in general are so dominating in UU at the moment with 4 main powerhouse sweepers (ludicolo, omastar, kabutops and quilfish) and the type coverage each of these gets along with pokes such as uxie and ambipom to set up rain and the main counters to rain are fairly easerly delt with as toxicroak is delt with by omastars earth power if registeel comes in it will be taking 80% damage form a surf by either ludi or oma by them time it thunder waves one odds are it wil lbe taking atleast 1 more surf at its sets up SR or trys to kill it and chancy gets hurt by a well placed ludi focus punch or either kabutops or quilfish jsut uses a physical attack on it and by the time one of the sweepers came in a crippled the counters to rain and so many teams are unprepaird and dont even carry a counter
IMO from what ive seen rain dance need to be BL somehow
Did you just play me? You listed like all my members in that post. Anyways, I have to agree, I decided to run a rain dance team for the past week and the win rate is almost 90%. The only way this style of play loses is through hax. This is probably the first time using it, slapped a team of 6 without changing it. Milked me a rating of 1600 something. Not that impressive, but it definitely speaks volume of rain dance's dominance. (Take note that this is in a team slapped together!). If anyone can give me a rain dance check, please tell me now. Toxicroak is an okay counter to it.
Gardevoir. It traces Swift Swim and Thunderbolt everyone to death(except Ludicolo, who you can play around it). Beware of Kabutops Aqua Jet, it does a good damage.
A NU one is Golduck with HP Grass. This time beware of Thunder users.
Now, can i ask something?
What would hte best Agility receivers? And who's the best Agility passer?
I'm thinking of Torterra because of it's sheer power of it's moves, Swords Dance and "no priority weak"(unlike Rhyperior).
Someone else?
A NU one is Golduck with HP Grass. This time beware of Thunder users.
Now, can i ask something?
What would hte best Agility receivers? And who's the best Agility passer?
I'm thinking of Torterra because of it's sheer power of it's moves, Swords Dance and "no priority weak"(unlike Rhyperior).
Someone else?
Rain Dance is ALWAYS dominant when the tier is unstable and there is not much we can do about it except ban Kabutops.
The only (reasonable) way I've found to shut down Rain Dance is by running Scarf Sleep / Taunt (Scarf Taunt is shit) on my lead, and have another reasonably quick Taunter waiting to switch in. So basically, the best / only strategy is to stop the rain from being set up. Once it gets up "Good luck". Rain's only weakness (once it's up) is that it can be played around.
I also load up on priority, but Kabutops really screws me over there.
Scarf Sceptile?????????
Hey your right about Taunt users screwing Rain Dance teams up. However, I knew it would happen beforehand so I run an Ambipom lead with Rain Dance. I don't know anyone in the right mind would Tant an Ambipom.
I've been meaning to post about banning rain dance, but it just doesn't make any sense. Do we ban the move itself? Do we ban the Pokemon? I'm really considering the banning of "rain dance" or at least put it up for discussion.
I've been meaning to post about banning rain dance, but it just doesn't make any sense. Do we ban the move itself? Do we ban the Pokemon? I'm really considering the banning of "rain dance" or at least put it up for discussion.
I think the metagame will likely be able to at least handle it when it balances out. Like, the most "balanced" UU metagame so far didn't have much trouble with Rain really. We just need to have the metagame controllable enough to have room for some rain checks on our team. Rain checks are very specific, meaning you won't "cover" rain without trying.
That's an interesting point you raise Franky, I'd be more inclined to ban the move Rain Dance, as Omastar and Kabutops can be utilized in alternate roles. Rain Dance is ridiculously overpowered, as generally you have to at least endure one entire period of Rain, which can tear apart any team whether it be Stall or Offense.
Eariler today, I went against 3 Rain Dance teams in a row, all different people. The first two I successfully beat with CM Cresselia (Thats right, with Moonlight only restoring 1/4 HP) by prediction and stalling Leech Seed Ludicolo to get as many CM's as I could. It was a hard task. The third one I lost 1-0, very close at the end.
Also, I've been testing out SubCM Cresselia on my Team, which originally had CM+Moonlight Cresselia on it (Even though my team was going relatively well, hovering round the 1420 mark after starting the day at 760 odd-something) and its working wonders. Cresselia no longer minds Venusaur's Sleep Powder (which is a huge plus), Porygon-Z (If it has a Sub up), TrickScarfCresselia+Uxie and much, much more.
Also, I've been testing out SubCM Cresselia on my Team, which originally had CM+Moonlight Cresselia on it (Even though my team was going relatively well, hovering round the 1420 mark after starting the day at 760 odd-something) and its working wonders. Cresselia no longer minds Venusaur's Sleep Powder (which is a huge plus), Porygon-Z (If it has a Sub up), TrickScarfCresselia+Uxie and much, much more.
Banning Rain Dance is an interesting idea. I don't really think that it is broken though. With some good prediction's Rain Dance can easily be played around. The only way I ever lose a few poke's to RD is if Kabutop's get's a SD in.
wouldnt it make more sense to ban the item damp rock over rain dance? I mean rain is very powerful, but its a hell of a lot easier stalling it out for 5 turns rather than 8
@ Golden Sun
It really depends, I'm pretty sure Cresselia is 3HKOd without Moonlight by any special sweeper with Surf. Well anyways, on one occasion, I have 2HKOd Chansey with Surf and Hydro Pump the following turn with Stealth Rock down. The fact that the best special wall in the tier falls to someone like Gorybyss is insane.
Rain Dance is pretty much an easy team to use, and most players play it with autopilot meaning they know which move to use everytime. Surf, Waterfall, Aqua Jet, Hydro Pump. Resisted or non-resisted its going to hurt. I've beaten some prolific UU battlers with rain dance alone with minimal thinking. I'm not trying to brag, but I seriously think Rain Dance is broken. I will post my team here and i encourage people to try it out on the ladder and tell me how easy you guys win it.
Ambipom / Uxie / gorbyss / SD kabutops / SD Ludicolo / SD Qwilfish
Ambipom has Taunt / Rain Dance / U-turn / fake out (252 HP / 4 Def / 252 spe)
uxie has U-turn / rain dance / psychic / Stealth Rock (evs to outpace jolly toxicroak)
the rest are basic 252/252. try it out.
Just a basic concept with this: overwhelm special walls with sd sweepers, making a clear path for gorbyss to sweep.
It really depends, I'm pretty sure Cresselia is 3HKOd without Moonlight by any special sweeper with Surf. Well anyways, on one occasion, I have 2HKOd Chansey with Surf and Hydro Pump the following turn with Stealth Rock down. The fact that the best special wall in the tier falls to someone like Gorybyss is insane.
Rain Dance is pretty much an easy team to use, and most players play it with autopilot meaning they know which move to use everytime. Surf, Waterfall, Aqua Jet, Hydro Pump. Resisted or non-resisted its going to hurt. I've beaten some prolific UU battlers with rain dance alone with minimal thinking. I'm not trying to brag, but I seriously think Rain Dance is broken. I will post my team here and i encourage people to try it out on the ladder and tell me how easy you guys win it.
Ambipom / Uxie / gorbyss / SD kabutops / SD Ludicolo / SD Qwilfish
Ambipom has Taunt / Rain Dance / U-turn / fake out (252 HP / 4 Def / 252 spe)
uxie has U-turn / rain dance / psychic / Stealth Rock (evs to outpace jolly toxicroak)
the rest are basic 252/252. try it out.
Just a basic concept with this: overwhelm special walls with sd sweepers, making a clear path for gorbyss to sweep.
I never really had a problem with Rain Dance. It might be because the people I'm facing now aren't using it correctly, but I've found I could stall the 8 turns out with Milotic and Specially Defensive Venusaur. Omastar, Kabutops, and the common rain dance sweepers aren't hard to cripple or stall out. If an Omastar is spamming surf, I can take the Ice Beam and KO back, and the same can be said with Gorebyss. I always attack a Kabutops immediately when it switches in, since I can't risk the SD. If it does SD, it usually gets quite crippled, which effects it's ability to sweep pretty hard. However, I will admit that it is incredibly hard to take on a Quilfish or a Kabutops after a SD. The main reason that I think that Rain Dance isn't broken because it's quite possible to stall it out, and once the rain is gone, it isn't exactly threatening.
@ ToF
We removed Garchomp even though its most popular set (SubSalac) had 2 relatively solid counters (Skarm and Bronzong), even though it would be revenged pretty easily by CB Scizor, and even though the common Scarf Latias was a great check for it. It was banned because even though all those Pokemon check/counter it, Magnezone removes half of those checks, and TTar (paired often with Chomp because of Sand Veil anyway) removed Latias. Even when Skarmory and company began running Shed Shell for Magnezone, Garchomp was still considered "broken". Now, regardless of whether you agree with that ban or not, you have to admit that the reasoning and circumstances, at least in this respect, are very similar. In fact, you could copy almost my entire last paragraph and apply it to Garchomp with some minor substitutions. So no, I don't think my argument is flawed on those grounds at all, given the precedent.
I did forget that Haze negates Sdef drops. Milotic is a hard counter.
@Heysup
It's pretty bullshit to say that anything that gets Toxic and a decent level of bulk "beats" Cresselia. Have you ever seen anyone run Toxic on fucking Azumarill? For fucks sake. I could nitpick your list on other aspects too (few Alakazam besides lead variants run Encore or Taunt, mid-game Kazams are either support variants with Screens/Thunder Wave or offensive variants with Sub/CM + 3 attacks or SubCM with 2 attacks and U-Turn isn't considered "beating" something, you could say that Gliscor "beats" Suicune by U-turning out of it after taunting a CM >_>) but really, you should know from playing the meta right now that half of the arguments you made were just inapplicable to commonly used sets.
We removed Garchomp even though its most popular set (SubSalac) had 2 relatively solid counters (Skarm and Bronzong), even though it would be revenged pretty easily by CB Scizor, and even though the common Scarf Latias was a great check for it. It was banned because even though all those Pokemon check/counter it, Magnezone removes half of those checks, and TTar (paired often with Chomp because of Sand Veil anyway) removed Latias. Even when Skarmory and company began running Shed Shell for Magnezone, Garchomp was still considered "broken". Now, regardless of whether you agree with that ban or not, you have to admit that the reasoning and circumstances, at least in this respect, are very similar. In fact, you could copy almost my entire last paragraph and apply it to Garchomp with some minor substitutions. So no, I don't think my argument is flawed on those grounds at all, given the precedent.
I did forget that Haze negates Sdef drops. Milotic is a hard counter.
@Heysup
It's pretty bullshit to say that anything that gets Toxic and a decent level of bulk "beats" Cresselia. Have you ever seen anyone run Toxic on fucking Azumarill? For fucks sake. I could nitpick your list on other aspects too (few Alakazam besides lead variants run Encore or Taunt, mid-game Kazams are either support variants with Screens/Thunder Wave or offensive variants with Sub/CM + 3 attacks or SubCM with 2 attacks and U-Turn isn't considered "beating" something, you could say that Gliscor "beats" Suicune by U-turning out of it after taunting a CM >_>) but really, you should know from playing the meta right now that half of the arguments you made were just inapplicable to commonly used sets.
Rain has been brought up as overpowering every single stage of UU, always a few weeks into each stage. It's kinda funny to me, because theres always a post like "rain is soo broken right now", when it's always been a very strong playstyle.
Is Kabutop's considered to be Rain Dance's most deadly sweeper because I'm finding Spec's Gorebyss to be the best. There is NO safe switch in and I mean it. it 2 K.O's everything
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