np: UU - Can't Touch This

[Ekanselttar]

(This ignores the last few posts because it took so freaking long to write)

I'd say dual screens is a bit meh if you're also dancing. And then switching, and dancing. Cress with a damp rock, though... that's pretty bad. Maybe

Calm Mind
Rain Dance
Thunder
Reflect/Psychic

or something of the like.

Anyways, I really think rain needs some serious discussion. The relevant characteristic:

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Now, Rain Dance and Damp Rock aren't exactly pokémon, but since we're discussing the uber-ness of them, we'll use the handy dandy criteria above. To be eligible for support, the technique or whatever used must be:

1. Easy to use/hard to stop (It can be "consistently set up")
2. Powerful ("Substantially easier... to sweep")

So, this begs the question: How do you prevent a Rain Dance? The simple answer is that you really can't. One of the commonly-used leads is Electrode. Hands up, who's faster than Electrode? Oh, that's right. NOTHING. You can nail it with Fake Out, but nothing can OHKO, barring a crit. And then after that, it's got free reign to Dance while you kill it in return. Alternatively, you could use TechniTop as a lead for Fake Out followed by a Mach Punch. This is the single method I can think of that will prevent Electrode from Rain Dancing. So unless you're packing Technitop as a lead, it's 8 turns of Hell for you.

Now, I don't want to sound like I'm nominating Electrode for BL or anything, but I just want to give an example of how freaking easy it is to set up rain. And that's just one potential lead. Ambipom makes a workable lead than can even force switches for an anticipated Fake Out while it dances unscathed. Again, bizzarely, TechniTop prevents this scenario by OHKOing with Mach Punch if Ambipom is holding a Damp Rock. If it's got a Sash on, though, you've still got rain, albeit three fewer turns of it.

Now, that's just analysis on two potential leads. Unless you want to use TechniTop for your lead (and honestly, I'd rather be able to deal with Froslass), rain's up. Focusing on the ease of setting up at the moment over the power of Rain Dance, we'll just assume your team hasn't been swept off of the initial Dance. How do you prevent it now? That's another problem. Even if the opposing Rain Dance team sucks without its weather, it only needs one turn to put it back up again. You have to have a 100% success rate in blocking it. Maybe they switch in a Lanturn on your Hp Grass Raikou. Or maybe they catch you Sleep Talking. Or maybe you just can't OHKO their next Dancer. The point here is that it's nigh impossible to prevent a determined foe from using Rain Dance. Therefore, the use of Rain Dance immediately makes any user fit the first part of the Support characteristic in the context of its team.

The second part of the Support characteristic is that the setup makes it significantly easier for another pokémon to sweep. Showing this is too easy. Here are some random calcs from what you might see on a Rain Dance team:

252 SpATK Modest Gorebyss Surf vs. 0/252 Calm Chansey: 33.4% - 39.3%
Not that impressive, but keep in mind that that's FREAKING CHANSEY.

252 SpATK Modest Gorebyss Surf vs. 252/156 Careful Registeel: 48.9% - 57.7%
Possible 2HKO. NoWall4U!

252 SpATK Modest Gorebyss Hydro Pump vs. 252/156 Careful Registeel: 62.1% - 73.4%
If you're daring, you can chance a miss, then finish it with a 100% accurate Surf the next turn.

252 SpATK Modest Gorebyss Surf vs. 252/0 Modest Cresselia: 45.3% - 53.4%
Cress is brokenly powerful in UU. What's it doing being 3HKO'd?

252 SpATK Modest Gorebyss Hydro Pump vs. 252/0 Modest Cresselia: 56.8% - 66.9%
Lolwut

252 SpATK Modest Gorebyss Surf vs. 252/252 Bold Venusaur: 33.8% - 39.6%
Looks like Venusaur's got this. Looks like a 4HKO with Sludge recovery, and Venusaur's got Sleep Powder and Power Whip.

252 SpATK Modest Gorebyss Surf vs. 252/252 Bold Venusaur: 58.8% - 69.2%
Whoops, looks like Gorebyss can do more than Surf. Switch in on this and you're dead. Power Whip only does 72.3% - 86.2% back, though, so I guess you're screwed anyways unless Sleep Powder hits.

Now, that's how Gorebyss (which is admittedly the most powerful sweeper on a Rain Dance team) fares against UU's premiere walls. Here are some more mundane defenders:

252 SpATK Modest Gorebyss Surf vs. 252/116 Calm Spiritomb: 76% - 89.8%
What's that, Spiritomb? You're supposed to take hits?

252 SpATK Modest Gorebyss Hydro Pump vs. 252/116 Calm Spiritomb: 96.1% - 113.5%
That one's for teh lulz.

252 SpATK Modest Gorebyss Surf vs. 0/0 Jolly Leafeon: 79.3% - 93.4%
Easy 2HKO. Ice Beam does 141.7% - 166.8% as well, and Leafeon is NOT going first.

252 SpATK Modest Gorebyss Surf vs. 4/0 Timid Raikou: 93.5% - 110.2%
Okay, maybe electric pokes aren't the answer.

Okay, okay, enough Gorebyss. How about Ludicolo?

252 SpATK Modest Ludicolo Surf vs. 4/0 Timid Raikou: 79.5% - 94.1%
Good thing Raikou OHKOs back with Thunderbolt. Oh, wait, no it doesn't. Bye, Raikou.

252 SpATK Modest Ludicolo Surf vs. 0/0 Timid Mismagius: 94.3% - 111.5%
Another one bites the dust...

252 SpATK Modest Ludicolo Surf vs. 4/0 Jolly Sceptile: 52.1% - 61.7%
Sceptile's speed means nothing with Swift Swim in effect. Good RNG or Hydro Pump followup and it's goodbye Sceptile.

252 SpATK Modest Ludicolo Surf vs. 252/212 Careful Clefable: 52% - 61.7%
Same deal. Clefable gets blasted.

Kabutops time!

252 ATK +2 Adamant Kabutops Aqua Tail vs. 252/212 Careful Clefable: 178.4% - 210.2%
Ouch.

252 ATK +2 Adamant Kabutops Aqua Tail vs. 0/252 Calm Chansey: 194.2% - 228.5%
I know Chansey isn't a great physical wall, but the sucker has a good chance of being OHKO'd even without Swords Dance.

252 ATK +2 Adamant Kabutops Aqua Tail vs. 80/252 Impish Hariyama: 125.8% - 148.3%
Hariyama's a nice wall. Kabutops better be careful of Bullet Punch, it could do a whole 15% in return!

252 ATK Adamant Technician Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 72/0 Adamant Kabutops: 77.4% - 91%
Close, but no cigar. You might not even get this far, though, because

252 ATK +2 Adamant Kabutops Aqua Jet vs. 252/4 Adamant Hitmontop: 87.2% - 103%
Yes, that's Jet. The move with 40 freaking base power.

That'll be enough calcs for now. The addition of Rain Dance turns potential counters into more meat for the grinder. Kabutops in particular is unstoppable. Now, I know, those calcs involve a Swords Dance, but not much will OHKO Kabutops, and you need an OHKO when it 2HKOs back and always goes first. Even priority users can be annihilated with Kabutops' own priority. This clearly demonstrates the awesome power of Rain Dance on offense. But wait! There's more! In every one of those calcs listed, the attacker went first, maybe barring the priority users vs. Kabutops' Aqua Tail. There are priority moves out there, but they're most effective on Kabutops, who is weak to fighting. Quick Attack and the like will do damage like Hariyama's neutral Bullet Punch. Extremespeed's not bad, except its users either suck are or called Arcanine and get ganked by water moves. Therefore, the usage of Rain Dance fulfills the second portion of the Support characteristic for the assisted pokemon. In effect, it's a free +1 Atk/SpATK and +2 Speed for your entire team. With that, the usage of Rain Dance, especially in conjunction with a Damp Rock, fulfills the Support Characteristic and is brokenly powerful.

 

[Bluewind]

Just for a lol fact, Electrode could just run Protect and beat Hitmontop lead lol...

 

[SilentVerse]

As mentioned before, Registeel survives against one poké and nothing more, because he'll most likely be switching in, risks being 2HKOed (IIRC) and can only paralyze and sometimes use EQ (really, I just don't consider Boom a viable option; but that's just me). Ludicolo simply loves Milotic, and is a fodder for stuff like Qwilfish, Raikou and such. Venusaur is severely hurt by any LO Ice Beam, thus can't handle more than one poke and can't take on physical sweepers. My point is, people shouldn't be forced to run Milo/Venu/Regi/Croak at the same time to stand a chance.

I'm honestly afraid banning Damp Rock will erradicate this style, but I see no other option TBVH.

Well, I will admit that I actually run Milo, Venu, and Regi all in the same team, so that might be the reason I have no problems with rain. I'm not sure, but I would also think that other bulky waters could be used instead of Milotic to help against rain, especially Slowbro since it can spread paralysis around. Also, Grass+Water is a great combination, so Venusaur and a bulky water is fairly common together. I think the main thing that I have trouble believing is that some people are overestimating how easy it is to use rain. For example, if you're spamming rain boosted Waterfalls and Surfs, it gives easy access for Milotic and Venusaur to come in and force you out. Specially Defensive Venu doesn't take too much damage from a LO Ice Beam(I dunno, for me it's usually 49.5% - 58.2%) and can KO back with Grass STAB. Rain is also incredibly predictable, which means that a player with experience will probably know what pokemon the opponent's team is going to have. I just don't see rain being as bad as people make it out to be, nor as overcentralizing.

I am perfectly willing to test Damp Rock, however, since if rain is causing so much trouble, we should test it.

 

[Bluewind]

People should always look forward setting up instead of just spamming attacks, of course, provided they know the opponent's team and have the chance, so that might not always work. I did run Milo + Sp Defensive Saur last turn, and still found rain teams though cookies to take down.

I do get the point, rain is not OMG impossible to beat, supreme and the whole shitbang; but requires lots of preparation and still doesn't guarantee victory.

 

[Nas]

I find that Dual Screens has no problems with Rain, by the time they've set up Rain Dance and SR you'll have both screens up and you can easily sweep them with Sub/CM Cress or whatever.

 

[Flamewheeler]

I agree with Silent verse. Rain may be powerful, but I have never had any real troubles with it outside of hax and misplaying, but I'll admit I have had teams that couldn't handle it because they were just that bad xD. I do however, like the idea of testing/banning Damp rock. With rain only having five turns to wreak havac, it's just easier to handle, and is not so frustrating when you're stalling just to kill it. I havn't played too much of this metagame, but I played enought to realize that more people are using rain. I still find it amazing how this whole "rain is too powerful" thing is just now being "dealt with", and people are just now agreeing on it being "broken". I say agreeing because I know there are a few people every phase who feel it's too strong.

 

[SilentVerse]

People should always look forward setting up instead of just spamming attacks, of course, provided they know the opponent's team and have the chance, so that might not always work. I did run Milo + Sp Defensive Saur last turn, and still found rain teams though cookies to take down.

I do get the point, rain is not OMG impossible to beat, supreme and the whole shitbang; but requires lots of preparation and still doesn't guarantee victory.

Yeah, I'll agree with you there. Rain, despite easier to play than most teams, can't really just spam attacks. You really need a lot of prediction and stuff, to use rain effectively. I'm just not sure how much Damp Rock affects things. Is it that much harder to stall out three more turns?

 

[Stagnant]

You really need a lot of prediction and stuff, to use rain effectively.

I disagree. For example, the first Pokemon that a Rain Team sends out often scouts your opponents best answer to Rain Teams. After that, it is a cake walk.

Rain is not impossible to beat, as already previously stated, but it honestly takes the knowledge of an unborn child to run that team style. Banning Damp Rock won't ruin that team style per say but, it would certianly bring rain teams down to 'standard' level.

 

[SilentVerse]

I disagree. For example, the first Pokemon that a Rain Team sends out often scouts your opponents best answer to Rain Teams. After that, it is a cake walk.

Rain is not impossible to beat, as already previously stated, but it honestly takes the knowledge of an unborn child to run that team style. Banning Damp Rock won't ruin that team style per say but, it would certianly bring rain teams down to 'standard' level.

Just saying, but isn't Grass+Water a good combination anyways, and a lot of people use it? That right there, assumingly, will offer two checks to rain. So the first pokemon they sent out is their first answer to rain. Yeah, but they have another check in the wings that can be utilized later. Yeah, I know that not every team will run Grass+Water, but it is a popular combination and as such, it is a way to somewhat check rain. I think that even though you need to prepare for rain, it is still quite manageable once you do.

Also, rain does require prediction. Not that I've played it, but as I stated before, you can't just randomly spam Surfs and Waterfalls. You still need basic prediction skills to hit things on the switch, so it still takes a degree of skill. I will admit that it is easier to play than a lot of other team styles however.

 

[Flamewheeler]

Is it that much harder to stall out three more turns?

It's not that. Without Damp Rock, it only last a MAX of five turns. It can always be less, but with Damp rock it always feels like it lasts a full eight. Besides, when you have limited checks to it, eight turns gives more turns to wear your check down, crit it, flinch it, or whatever.

You really need a lot of prediction and stuff, to use rain effectively.

Name something not named chansey, registeel, specially defensive milotic, or cresselia that is not koed by another move after being hit with rain powered water STAB?

 

[SilentVerse]

It's not that. Without Damp Rock, it only last a MAX of five turns. It can always be less, but with Damp rock it always feels like it lasts a full eight. Besides, when you have limited checks to it, eight turns gives more turns to wear your check down, crit it, flinch it, or whatever.

Okay, just saying, but isn't it pretty much 6 turns with Damp Rock, since you take one turn to set up the rain, and then another turn to go boom, or switch out? Without Damp Rock, that's basically only 3 turns, which really isn't enough to do much with, making rain basically useless. Removing Damp Rock would basically remove rain from the scene, but yet it would still be there, just a really mediocre option. With Damp Rock, you have 6 turns-it's only three more turns. I guess if those 3 turns make THAT much of a difference, but I really wouldn't like seeing Damp Rock banned, since it would almost make a style of play unviable.

Name something not named chansey, registeel, specially defensive milotic, or cresselia that is not koed by another move after being hit with rain powered water STAB?

Uh, let's see, it sorta depends on the poke, but Specially Defensive Venusaur, Poliwrath and Toxicroak against things that are not Gorebyss, Bold Milotic takes hits fine, and Gardevoir can come in on a Surf, and spam ThunderBolt to KO, since it outspeeds with Trace, all can deal with rain, off the top of my head.

 

[Quaily]

Name something not named chansey, registeel, specially defensive milotic, or cresselia that is not koed by another move after being hit with rain powered water STAB?

...ludicolo? 4x water resist

 

[Nidogron]

Okay, just saying, but isn't it pretty much 6 turns with Damp Rock, since you take one turn to set up the rain, and then another turn to go boom, or switch out? Without Damp Rock, that's basically only 3 turns, which really isn't enough to do much with, making rain basically useless. Removing Damp Rock would basically remove rain from the scene, but yet it would still be there, just a really mediocre option. With Damp Rock, you have 6 turns-it's only three more turns. I guess if those 3 turns make THAT much of a difference, but I really wouldn't like seeing Damp Rock banned, since it would almost make a style of play unviable.



Uh, let's see, it sorta depends on the poke, but Specially Defensive Venusaur, Poliwrath and Toxicroak against things that are not Gorebyss, Bold Milotic takes hits fine, and Gardevoir can come in on a Surf, and spam ThunderBolt to KO, since it outspeeds with Trace, all can deal with rain, off the top of my head.

8 turns with damp rock...5 turns without damp rock....specially defensive venasaur still gets 2HKOed by LO+ice beam, the only pokemon venasaur can probably come in on is Ludicolo, but then again Ludicolo might be running an SD set with Ice punch or Zen headbutt...gardevoir can not switch in on surf and hope to survive unless it runs max HP/max SpeDef...during which case making the rain dancer faster than gardevior since gardevior isnt running any speed...it would be a good revenge killer, but then again most rain dance teams run something that can easily stop gardevior(not saying that they plan for it) Uxie/Raikou and others...Milotic is just a CHECK for rain dance teams...it cannot stop the physical attackers and cant repeatedely switch in on gorebyss or omastar as Hidden Power grass will get the best of milotic...and milotic needs to be in good condition to stop these threats

 

[FlareBlitz]

I found out something cool today. Specs Gorebyss 2hkos Chansey with Rocks down. I'm serious. Go run the calcs.

 

[Flamewheeler]

Uh, let's see, it sorta depends on the poke, but Specially Defensive Venusaur, Poliwrath and Toxicroak against things that are not Gorebyss, Bold Milotic takes hits fine, and Gardevoir can come in on a Surf, and spam ThunderBolt to KO, since it outspeeds with Trace, all can deal with rain, off the top of my head.

Ok, I mentioned milotic, albeit specially defensive, but point taken. Venusaur stands a very small chance of not dieing after being hit by special or physical water STAB and the move #2 [insert common RD tem move here]. Gardevoir to counter rain dance is a gimmick and is going to get 2HKOed regardless, which was my point anyway. Toxicroak w/e...it's frail and going to die anyway. Poliwrath; same as toxicroak, it may not always die, but it is going to be neutered before [insert RD sweeper] goes down. BTW, I was never for getting rid of Damp rock. I was only pointing out how people are making such a big deal out of it NOW when it's always been pretty powerful, but managable.

...ludicolo? 4x water resist

And how many of those are seen outside of rain dance teams?

 

[Eternal]

I found out something cool today. Specs Gorebyss 2hkos Chansey with Rocks down. I'm serious. Go run the calcs.

Have you taken leftovers into account?

 

[FlareBlitz]

Yes. That's with leftovers.

 

[SilentVerse]

Ok, I mentioned milotic, albeit specially defensive, but point taken. Venusaur stands a very small chance of not dieing after being hit by special or physical water STAB and the move #2 [insert common RD tem move here]. Gardevoir to counter rain dance is a gimmick and is going to get 2HKOed regardless, which was my point anyway. Toxicroak w/e...it's frail and going to die anyway. Poliwrath; same as toxicroak, it may not always die, but it is going to be neutered before [insert RD sweeper] goes down. BTW, I was never for getting rid of Damp rock. I was only pointing out how people are making such a big deal out of it NOW when it's always been pretty powerful, but managable.

Yeah, those checks that I said are pretty shaky, however, I did some calacs and Toxicroak is going to survive against Omastar unless it runs Earth Power or specs, so it still works. Same for Poliwrath, except minus the Earth Power part and it likes specs. I said Bold Milotic, because I'm pretty sure most people run bold, so right there you have a check for rain. I do agree with you that people are making much more of a fuss now for some reason. However, I believe that rain might be broken in this metagame when people find a good, smart way to use Cress as a rain set-up.

 

[Heysup]

I found out something cool today. Specs Gorebyss 2hkos Chansey with Rocks down. I'm serious. Go run the calcs.

Factoring Rain, STAB, and Specs:

538 Atk vs 339 Def & 642 HP (95 Base Power): 243 - 286 (37.85% - 44.55%)

Unless I'm missing something.....no it never 2HKOes even with Stealth Rocks. 0%.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I meant with Hydro Pump. Did I not specify that? Sorry.

 

[Heysup]

Hydro Pump wasn't on the move list for the Smogon Calc for some reason, so I figured you meant Surf. My mistake.

Hydro Pump is (47.66% - 56.07%), which will 2HKO with Stealth Rock vs variants w/o Protect 100% of the time. That is dangerous...

 

[Erazor]

TBH I really enjoy playing against rain teams. It adds an element of prediction, tests your skills, and brings some FUN into a metagame that has been lacking in fun these last few weeks.

You can't call Venusaur a very good counter to RD... offensive variants are KOed by Surf + Ice beam by any of the sweepers, and Specially defensive versions get owned by Kabutops if Stone Edge hits. Not to mention the extremely underrated SD Ludicolo, who can rape most Rain counters. For example, if you SD as he goes to chansey, expecting a surf, it might be GG right there, especially if Gorebyss already had a run against your opponent's team.

 

[Banedon]

I'm honestly afraid banning Damp Rock will erradicate this style, but I see no other option TBVH.

I agree. Look at Rain Dance without Damp Rock. Rain Dance lasts 5 turns. Of those 5 turns, the first turn goes into setting it up (4 turns left), then another turn to switch out / Explode / whatever. That leaves you with three turns left of rain sweeping time. If your opponent is completely unprepared for Rain Dance, then those three turns might result in three KOs ... but against an intact team you are not likely to get more than one. In fact you might not even get any, because there are ways to stall out rain turns (like spamming Substitute, Protect, Softboiled or Recover, Screens, even simple prediction etc).

Of course that's only the first dance, and subsequent ones would be against a weakened team that'll result in more KOs. But 5 turns still puts RD under great pressure. It has no time to Swords Dance, no time to switch out if walled and no time to predict. It's like trying to sweep with a Raikou badly poisoned by Toxic Spikes and the timer steadily counting down. Make one bad prediction and you might lose Raikou for no gain.

I think right now that Rain is beatable, and even if it's "unbeatable" it's only by a rather small margin (I think I lost my last few games to it 0-1 or 0-2). If it went from 8 turns to 5 then I'm worried it would die. A 6-turn RD might be more fair, or maybe even a 7-turn RD, although that would of course break with the game.

And I agree with Erazor that playing against RD is fun. I can't put my finger on exactly why; it's just fun. You're guaranteed a quick game, your opponent will not be making many predictions (even 8-turn dances have a timer), your defensive resources will be tested to the limit and it's very satisfying if you win.

PS: We did have a Rain thread somewhere. Perhaps it's time to bump it?

 

[Smurf.]

TBH I really enjoy playing against rain teams. It adds an element of prediction, tests your skills, and brings some FUN into a metagame that has been lacking in fun these last few weeks.

I'll second that, with the exception of the fun part. Having said that, however, IMHO I believe rain to be broken. Damp rock is the culprit i suspect, and a 3 turn rain would be much more manageable.

Not to mention the extremely underrated SD Ludicolo, who can rape most Rain counters. For example, if you SD as he goes to chansey, expecting a surf, it might be GG right there, especially if Gorebyss already had a run against your opponent's team.

When you give these pokes the leisure of setting up with 5 turns of rain spare to sweep, its going to be extremely difficult to come out on top, whether you run offence or stall.

 

[Stagnant]

Compare TrickRoom to Rain. TrickRoom alters Speed while Rain boosts Speed and STAB. Both require some prediction. There are few Trickroom teams being used but no one can really say that it is a uneffective team style, with only 3 turns of raw power to sweep. I think rain could easily do the same with only 3 turns.