I Can't Believe It's Not Standard! (OU RMT)

[Dummy007]

Hello, citizens of Smogon! This is my third RMT here at Smogon, and I hope it will turn out better than the last one (no replies at all, lol). This OU team has been successful, but there are a few kinks that I need to work out. Most of this team is somewhat gimmicky, and I would not like serious overhauls that send this team to bog-standard OU. EVs are my weak point, so I would like specific help with those. Now, on with the show!

Changes will remain in their original color.

Nico di Angelo (Gengar) (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 6 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Trick
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Energy Ball

I originally had a Banded Gengar here, but this Specs set works a lot better. Trick is a key move on the set as it allows Gengar to cripple opposing leads, walls, or physical sweepers. Shadow Ball provides a reliable STAB that can hurt pretty badly with Specs attached. Focus Blast gets perfect coverage alongside Shadow Ball and covers Tyranitar, Heatran, and Magnezone. Energy Ball tears Swampert to pieces and can destroy Rhyperior if anyone still uses him.

Max SAtk and Speed are givens on a frail special sweeper. The remaining EVs are allocated to HP simply because I have nowhere else to put them.

Synergy:
Dark- Scizor, Heatran
Ghost- Scizor, Heatran
Psychic- Scizor, Heatran, Celebi

Blackjack (Flygon) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 32 HP/252 Atk/10 Def/216 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch
- Roost

I originally had a Scarf Salamence here. Then I had a Special LOGon, and it worked pretty well. Then ame.otani suggested this set (with Fire Blast over Fire Punch). I tried it out, and I really like the change. Dragon Claw provides a nice STAB attack that has great neutral coverage. Earthquake is a secondary STAB that gets solid coverage and mauls Heatran, Tyranitar, and Magnezone. It also gets great coverage alongside Dragon Claw. Fire Punch completes the coverage on this set and beats up Forretress, Scizor, Skarmory, and Bronzong (who I never see anymore for some reason). Roost is an important final move, as it helps nullify Life Orb recoil and entry hazard (lol) damage.

The EVs are also ame.otani's, but I've figured out (mostly) what they do. 32 HP EVs hit 309 HP, a magic Life Orb number. Max Attack is a given. The Speed EVs, I assume, outspeed something important, although I'm not sure what. The remaining EVs are in Defense because they can be.

Synergy:
Dragon- Scizor, Heatran
Ice- Scizor, Heatran

Annabeth Chase (Scizor) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 200 HP/252 Atk/58 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Brick Break

The mighty Scizor!…presented in an alternate form. SD Scizor has worked very well for me and has swept entire teams from time to time. Swords Dance is the set-up move and increases Scizor’s attack from 394 to a whopping 788 after just one use. Bullet Punch works well with Technician, as most OU players know. Bug Bite is secondary STAB and plows through plenty of OU Pokemon. Brick Break brings a coverage move to the table and actually lets Scizor hurt Heatran without undoing part of his boosts. (Strategy Note: If I have seen that my opponent has a Heatran or Magnezone, I will often Brick Break immediately when I switch Scizor in.)

This EV spread is also ame.otani's. 200 HP maximizes bulk. The Attack EVs are a given, and the remaining EVs are placed in Speed.

Synergy:
Fire- Heatran, Gyarados

Tyson (Heatran) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Lava Plume
- Earth Power

A play off of SubTran. This guy actually functions as my main sweeper most of the time, simply because of his coverage and ability. Substitute is the key to the set, as it eases prediction and blocks paralysis and sleep moves. Toxic allows Heatran to cripple bulky waters *cough*Vaporeon*cough* that would otherwise ruin him. Lava Plume is a STAB attack with a nifty burn chance that has helped me so many times against Salamence. Earth Power destroys opposing Heatran, Infernape, and Tyranitar. The Special Defense drops can also be quite nasty if they come at the right time. This guy receives Celebi's Baton Passes, and can deal a lot of damage (even sweep entire teams) after 2 Calm Mind boosts.

The EV spread is DrkSlay's. Max Speed and Special Attack provide optimal sweeping power. The remaining EVs sit in HP.

Synergy:
Ground- Gengar, Flygon, Celebi, Gyarados
Water- Celebi, Gyarados
Fighting- Gengar, Celebi, Gyarados

Grover Underwood (Celebi) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP/252 Spd/6 SAtk
Gentle nature (+SDef, -Def)
- Calm Mind
- Hidden Power {Fire}
- Grass Knot
- Baton Pass

CM Passer Celebi was probably the weakest link on my team until DrkSlay suggested HP {Fire} over Psychic. Now Celebi can usually either pass to Heatran or nab a KO. Calm Mind is critical to the set, as it gives Celebi something to pass. Hidden Power {Fire} (bracket things because I'll never use them again) destroys Forretress and Scizor that think Celebi can't hurt them. Grass Knot gets STAB and clobbers Hippowdon, Tyranitar, Suicune, and, after two Calm Minds, Vaporeon. Baton Pass lets Celebi get the heck out of there and go Heatran. I intended for Flygon to be the recipient most of the time (at least, until he wet physical), but I usually end up passing to Heatran instead. Now I always pass to Heatran because he covers all of Celebi's weaknesses and makes good use of the SpA boosts.

Max HP and Speed give Celebi the best chance to pass something, while the remaining EVs are put in Special Attack for a little extra oomph. Unfortunately, Gentle is my choice of nature because nothing else useful can work with HP Fire.

Synergy:
Fire- Flygon, Heatran, Gyarados
Ice- Scizor, Heatran
Bug- Gengar, Scizor, Heatran, Gyarados
Dark- Scizor, Heatran
Ghost- Scizor, Heatran
Flying- Heatran
Poison- Flygon, Scizor, Heatran

Percy Jackson (Gyarados) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 156 HP/72 Atk/96 Def/184 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Return
- Taunt

Now that we’ve seen all of Percy’s friends, we get to the big man himself. He was my team's weakest link until DrkSlay suggested I change him from CBDos to BulkyDDDos. Now he is absolutely amazing. Dragon Dance lets him boost his Attack and Speed. Waterfall is a great STAB that has brilliant neutral coverage, as well as the ability to tear things apart. Return gets amazing coverage alongside Waterfall and beats down Water-resists. Taunt lets him set up easier and force things like Skarmory to leave me alone.

The EV spread is DrkSlay's. I'm not 100% sure what it does, but it works really nicely.

Synergy:
Electric- Flygon, Celebi
Rock- Flygon

And that’s all! Rate, hate, steal, go read Percy Jackson, eat a bagel, I don’t care!

A Look Back:



All artwork property of arkeis.com.
All sprites property of Bulbapedia.

 

[DiamondMaster]

CB Genger is going to fail in tricking. Most of this metagame is Psychical, so passing random Choice Bands is more painful than Random Choice Scarfs. And you'd do a lot more damage.

too lazy to fully rate, I didn't read all of it either to be honest. but anyway, Your scizor could use X-Scissor instead of Bug Bite for more damage, I doubt the side-effect of bug bite ever comes in handy.

I second this. How about U- Turn, and Super Power over Brick Break. Using Choice Band and give it Pursuit :).

 

[Dummy007]

Bug Bite has 60 Base Power, which, due to Technician, boosts it to 90 before STAB as opposed to X-Scissor, which has only 75. I really do like the SD set, so I probably won't change. I also mentioned in Scizor's description that I prefer Brick Break to Superpower because I don't lose stats. I can usually Trick CB effectively onto either a lead or a special wall that thinks Gengar can't hurt them. I may try a Specs set, though...

EDIT: Specs FTW.

 

[ame.otani]

Nico di Angelo (Gengar) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Trick
- Shadow Claw
- Brick Break
- Explosion

Scarf over band. Give a Metagross a band hen it bullet punches, and you're in for a 2HKO. Gengar is a rather unorthodox lead, but I think this set might work out a bit better for you:
Gengar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
EVs: 6 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
-Trick
-Hypnosis
-Explosion
-Shadow Ball

This will outspeed quite a few Pokemon, and has the ability to cripple up to three Pokemon.

Turn 1: Trick a scarf onto an SR lead.
Turn 2: Hypnosis the incoming Pokemon.
Turn 3: Explode and kill the incoming Pokemon.

Granted, it won't always work like that. However, the potential is there. Last move is a toss up. I actually think Counter would work well there. But, that's a personal decision. But, Shadow Ball>Shadow Claw. Gengar is a special attacker, not a physical attacker.

Blackjack (Flygon) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 6 Def/252 Spd/252 SAtk (Note: 29 HP IV)
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Dragon Pulse
- Earth Power
- Flamethrower
- Roost

Flygon has higher Atk than SpA, so it's better suited for the physical spectrum. It is possible to make Flygon into a mixed attacker, but if you wanted a mixed Dragon-type attacker, why aren't you using a MixMence? If you want to keep Flygon on your team, I'd suggest a ScarfGon (whom is an amazing revenge killer who possesses great synergy with Scizor). But, if you want to keep your Flygon as a LO variant, I'd suggest this build:

Flygon @ Life Orb
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA)
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def / 216 Spe
-Earthquake
-Dragon Claw
-Fire Blast
-Roost

Fire blast is for a nasty surprise when against Scizors. ;) It also gives it a bit more of a mixed feeling. This set has just enough speed to outspeed base 90s, like Lucario. Fire Blast can be exchanged for Stone Edge, if you want. But, I feel Fire Blast gives better type coverage.

Annabeth Chase (Scizor) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Brick Break

I find it a bit funny that you're trying to be a bit unorthodox, but you run Scizor. My humor aside, though (discretion is the better part of valor).

Change the EVs. I suggest 200 HP/252 Atk/52 Spe. This gives Scizor the optimal amount of bulkiness. The rest is dumped in Spe. I suggest switching out Bug Bite for Pursuit. It's better type coverage, and Pursuit eats a lot of things alive (Bliss, fleeing Psychic types, ect).

Tyson (Heatran) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP/58 Spd/204 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Taunt
- Lava Plume
- Earth Power

If it works for you, it works for you. I really don't understand this build. But, if it works, it works.

I'll finish this rate for you later. I have to head off to work and such.

 

[Dummy007]

Comments in blue.

Nico di Angelo (Gengar) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Trick
- Shadow Claw
- Brick Break
- Explosion

Scarf over band. Give a Metagross a band hen it bullet punches, and you're in for a 2HKO. Gengar is a rather unorthodox lead, but I think this set might work out a bit better for you:
Gengar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
EVs: 6 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
-Trick
-Hypnosis
-Explosion
-Shadow Ball

This will outspeed quite a few Pokemon, and has the ability to cripple up to three Pokemon.

Turn 1: Trick a scarf onto an SR lead.
Turn 2: Hypnosis the incoming Pokemon.
Turn 3: Explode and kill the incoming Pokemon.

Granted, it won't always work like that. However, the potential is there. Last move is a toss up. I actually think Counter would work well there. But, that's a personal decision. But, Shadow Ball>Shadow Claw. Gengar is a special attacker, not a physical attacker.

SpecsGar is working better than BandGar, but thanks for the suggestion.

Blackjack (Flygon) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 6 Def/252 Spd/252 SAtk (Note: 29 HP IV)
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Dragon Pulse
- Earth Power
- Flamethrower
- Roost

Flygon has higher Atk than SpA, so it's better suited for the physical spectrum. It is possible to make Flygon into a mixed attacker, but if you wanted a mixed Dragon-type attacker, why aren't you using a MixMence? If you want to keep Flygon on your team, I'd suggest a ScarfGon (whom is an amazing revenge killer who possesses great synergy with Scizor). But, if you want to keep your Flygon as a LO variant, I'd suggest this build:

Flygon @ Life Orb
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA)
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def / 216 Spe
-Earthquake
-Dragon Claw
-Fire Blast
-Roost

Fire blast is for a nasty surprise when against Scizors. ;) It also gives it a bit more of a mixed feeling. This set has just enough speed to outspeed base 90s, like Lucario. Fire Blast can be exchanged for Stone Edge, if you want. But, I feel Fire Blast gives better type coverage.

I'll try it out. Special Flygon isn't working out quite as well as I'd hoped.

Annabeth Chase (Scizor) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Brick Break

I find it a bit funny that you're trying to be a bit unorthodox, but you run Scizor. My humor aside, though (discretion is the better part of valor).

Yes, but it's not a BANDED Scizor (lol).

Change the EVs. I suggest 200 HP/252 Atk/52 Spe. This gives Scizor the optimal amount of bulkiness. The rest is dumped in Spe. I suggest switching out Bug Bite for Pursuit. It's better type coverage, and Pursuit eats a lot of things alive (Bliss, fleeing Psychic types, ect).

Eh, Bug Bite works nicely for my purposes. It's a nice thought, though.

Tyson (Heatran) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP/58 Spd/204 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Taunt
- Lava Plume
- Earth Power

If it works for you, it works for you. I really don't understand this build. But, if it works, it works.

The EVs outside of HP were pretty random, but, yeah, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I'll finish this rate for you later. I have to head off to work and such.

Thanks! I'll try out MixGon and the Scizor spread now.

 

[ARandomDude]

58 HP EVs allow him to switch in 5 times under Stealth Roc

so do 8, 24, 40, etc. Run less HP, more strength.

 

[DarkSlay]

Hey there. :)

This is a very awkward team. Not that it's bad, but it kind of makes me feel weird looking at it personally. XD It's a decent set of Pokemon, but these movesets confuse me. Anyways, on to the rate!

You're going to run into a lot of problems with SubTran. Heatran can easily switch into Gengar locked into Shadow Claw, Scizor, Celebi, your Gyarados locked into Ice Fang (rare), and Heatran's Lava Plume. He then sets up a Substitute on your switch, and can hit four out of six of your Pokemon for OHKO's (Gengar, Scizor, Celebi, and your own Heatran), and either Flygon will be OHKO'd by HP Ice, Gyarados will be OHKO'd by HP Electric, and both will dislike Toxic. It can be revenged, but it's guaranteed to bring at least one or two of your Pokes down before it goes, which is not good.

DDGyarados and DDMence rip this team apart, especially BulkyGyara sets, as he can Taunt Celebi while taking minimal damage while setting up. With Stealth Rock support, Gyarados will rip through this team with ease after one Dragon Dance, period. There really isn't anything you can do to stop it, and it can set up on a lot of your team.

You're also going to run into trobule with a lot of bulky Waters, especially with the likes of Swampert. It's not as bad as Heatran, but it's still a hard task. Once Celebi is out for the count, this team will have a lot of trouble taking out the bulky Swampert, espeically Cursepert. Flygon's Dragon Pulse 3HKO's, while Swampert's Ice Beam OHKO's after Life Orb recoil. Gengar's Explosion (Band-less) cannot OHKO, and the other attacks do squat. Scizor can be Roared away before a Swords Dance, although once a SD is in, Bug Bite can deal heavy damage. Everything else has trouble with it (Heatran and Gyara, specifically. You have some checks, but without Celebi, you might lose someone.

Now for the team and the solutions: this team has so many things it wants to accomplish, but it just seems to fall flat. We'll look at each Poke specifically:

Gengar

This is an interesting set, and I have a feeling you had inspiration from the CBTomb lead in UU play, which does similar things. However, realize that this Gengar will be unable to prevent Stealth Rocks from being set up, which is what most anti-leads accomplish, which means that while you "beat" Azelf and Aerodactyl leads, you still let them accomplish their major goals, which is more of a draw than a win. You also lose to Jirachi leads, Metagross leads (I'm not sure that you would want to Trick it a Band), TTar leads (who OHKO you with Crunch or Payback, regardless of your 2HKO, and you don't want it Banded), Ninjask (which is funny), and Swampert. I'm not too sure what this Trick Lead can accomplish. You can go two different ways with a change: if you want to keep Gengar, you can use a different Lead set. If you want a replacement for a better Trick lead, I reccomend one that can set up Rocks as well. I'll give two sets:

Gengar @ Life Orb/Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
EV's: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
Nature: Timid
Moveset:
- Taunt
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Destiny Bond

This set is designed to shut down Leads with Taunt and Destiny Bond. Taunt prevents Rocks and force your opponent to attack or switch. You may think that you lose to Taunt, but this set takes advantage of Gengar's sky-high Special Attack and two very powerful moves that OHKO/2HKO a lot of threats. Remember how Brick Break is a 2HKO against TTar? With an Orb, Focus Blast is a OHKO. Shadow Ball has a decent chance at a 2HKO on Metagross. Azelf and Aerodactyl are 2HKO'd by Shadow Ball. Swampert is essentially 3HKO'd, but can't do anything in return. All slow leads hate Taunt. If Gengar is on the verge of being KO'd, you take advantage of Gengar's great speed and Destiny Bond, essentially scoring a free KO. Life Orb gives this set some nice power, but Foucs Sash plays well with Destiny Bond. However, this set still has flaws: Jirachi leads are still a loss, priority (like Bullet Punch) screws this over, and you still are unable to prevent Rocks from going up. However, this is a major upgrade to your set in terms of its abilities.

OR

Azelf @ Choice Scarf/Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
EV's: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
Nature: Timid
Moveset:
- Trick
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt/Psychic
- U-Turn

This is a much better Trick lead than Gengar, as not only will it be able to accomplish the same goal, but it can also set up Rocks (which this team needs desperately). Your team actually benefits well from this Azelf, as not only can it outspeed almost everything with a Scarf and screw over sets with Trick, but it can break Sashes with U-Turn (like for opposing Azelf and Aerodactyl) and can prevent Rocks from being set up. Scizor then can easily revenge with Bullet Punch (however, see my Scizor rate first). Stealth Rock ensures OHKO's on a lot of your threats, and discourages your opponent from switching often. Taunt can prevent set-up even after Trick, which helps for Stall teams that rely on two Pokes to set up hazards, while Psychic can hit a few unsuspecting Leads for OHKO's, like Gengar. Scarf is superior to Band or Specs in that it shuts down set-up leads (which is pretty much all of them) without giving a power boost to a possible half of the leads, but I suppose all three are possible.

Flygon

This Flygon is completely underwhelming, as relying on Celebi to power this thing up is foolish, as once your opponent guesses that you're a CM passer, a Phazer will come out, like Skarmory or Vaporeon. Flygon's 284 Special Attack is poor (as an example, Skarmory might not OHKO'd with Flamethower, and Bronzong is 3HKO'd). I reccomend a replacement that provides the team with similar resistances, more power and speed, and has access to an instant recovery move:

Latias @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EV's: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
Nature: Timid
Moveset:
- Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Recover

Let's compare: Latias gets 319 SpA with a neutral nature, Flygon gets 284 with a positive nature. In exchange for their natures, Latias hits 350 Speed, while Flygon hits 280. It's also worth noting that Latias has the same HP value, better Defense, and superior Special Defense (great with Calm Mind boosts as a bonus), along with a better Special moveset. Water/Dragon is only resisted by Empoleon and Shedinja, and TBolt takes care of Empoleon. Dragon Pulse is not ordinary for this set, but with a Calm Mind boost from Celebi, it does almost the same damage as Draco Meteor. However, Draco Meteor with a Calm Mind boost in is devastating, so it's worth considering even with the -2 SpA drop. Surf hits a lot of counters hard, including Steels, and TBolt nails bulky Waters. You lose the immunity to Electricity, but gain a resistance to Water, have a resistance to Electricity, and change that 4x weakness to Ice to a 2x. Recover works the same as Roost, except that it doesn't ground you. Latias is the superior choice, by far.

Scizor

There is nothing wrong with SDScizor, and it gives you a much needed resistance typing. Keep it. However, if you choose that Azelf as a lead, consider changing this to CBScizor. You will then be able to 2HKO opposing Azelf on the U-Turn switch with Bullet Punch, as your own Azelf will break the Sash. If this is unimportant to you, changes your playstyle too much, or you choose Gengar, ignore this.

Heatran

The EV's and choice of attacks seem underwhelming. Many things still OHKO you with powerful Ground or Water attacks, regardless of HP EV investment anyway, and with the lack of Speed, you now lose to opposing Heatran and everything normal SubTran outspeeds. TormenTran does not help this team, and neither does this moveset. With that being said, Heatran as a whole helps this team with a Fire immunity and Steel resists. So, I reccomend changing this to the standard SubTran set: that's 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe with a Timid nature, with Fire Blast over Lava Plume and Toxic over Taunt. This reduces your weakness to Bulky Waters, as none like Toxic and you can stall them out since you outspeed. You now outspeed a lot of things that can harm Heatran with powerful moves. Lava Plume's Burn rate is tempting, but Fire Blast's rate is fairly high as well, and the power boost from it is greatly appreciated. Taunt is a great move overall, but there are few things that can set up on Heatran anyway that Taunt will help with, and Taunt is really more luxury than practical. Toxic is much, much more practical.

Celebi

I'm not sure what Calm Mind passing was originally doing for your team, but my rates aim to keep main ideas intact, and Calm Mind passing seems to be a major part of your gameplan. Celebi is a good choice as well, especially with Heatran on the team. It originally didn't serve a great purpose, but now that LO Latias and the original SubTran has been added, Calm Mind passing is much more beneficial. As for Celebi itself, what is Psychic hitting hard? Psychic is generally a poor move in the OU environment, especially with Celebi's intense weakness to Scizor. I reccomend changing Psychic to HP Fire, or else Scizor will mop the floor with you and this team. After one Calm Mind, HP Fire OHKO's Scizor before he can OHKO you with U-Turn. You will always outspeed Scizor. This also prevents Skarmory from setting up on you, as he resists both of your attacks, as well as giving you a better time against Bronzong and Metagross switches.

Gyarados

I can immediately guess why CBGyara seems underwhelming to you: he has less than average Speed, and it's made worse by forcing it to use only one move. I believe it's around 287, which sounds decent up until the point that all of your counters outpace you without a Dragon Dance boost. However, I would definitely say that Gyarados' resistances play well with the team as a whole. I suspect that the Bulky DDGyarados will play a similar role to the team, but with a lot more Speed and more Attack power. Let's try a little twist:

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EV's: 156/72 Atk/96 Def/184 Spe
Nature: Adamant
Moveset:
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge/Return
- Taunt

After one Dragon Dance, Gyarados reaches an amazing Speed level compared to the Band version, and thanks to Dragon Dance, this set has the ability to take a lot of hits due to EV investment without having to lose firepower. It is also good to note that after a DD, Gyara hits almost the same Attack as with a Band (the exact same if he were to have 200 Atk EV's, but the bulk might benefit more). With this Gyarados, you are now able to use Gyarados as not only a reliable, heavy-hitting sweeper, but a Poke that can switch in on a lot of resistances and wreck havoc. Stone Edge ensures that you OHKO opposing Gyarados and Salamence after Rocks and Intimidate, but Return gives Gyarados the famous Water/Normal combo, being only resisted by Empoleon and Shedinja. Both are acceptable and are up to personal preference. If you feel that Taunt is not working out, you can try Substitute over Taunt to block status and get an extra boost in.

Hope this helps, and good luck with the team!

EDIT: Now that I look back, it seems that the Pokes I chose are standard in terms of usage. However, their movesets aren't the most used exactly, and even if they are standard, I really feel that you will succeed a lot more than with your previous intentions. If you want to keep the SpecsGar lead because of this, as an example, I understand why. Just make sure that you're making this team to be successful as a unit rather than to prove that your sets can work. Sorry if it seems that I ignored your "bog standard" rule a little bit. Just trying to be helpful. :)

 

[Dummy007]

Hey there. :)

This is a very awkward team. Not that it's bad, but it kind of makes me feel weird looking at it personally. XD It's a decent set of Pokemon, but these movesets confuse me. Anyways, on to the rate!

You're going to run into a lot of problems with SubTran. Heatran can easily switch into Gengar locked into Shadow Claw, Scizor, Celebi, your Gyarados locked into Ice Fang (rare), and Heatran's Lava Plume. He then sets up a Substitute on your switch, and can hit four out of six of your Pokemon for OHKO's (Gengar, Scizor, Celebi, and your own Heatran), and either Flygon will be OHKO'd by HP Ice, Gyarados will be OHKO'd by HP Electric, and both will dislike Toxic. It can be revenged, but it's guaranteed to bring at least one or two of your Pokes down before it goes, which is not good.

DDGyarados and DDMence rip this team apart, especially BulkyGyara sets, as he can Taunt Celebi while taking minimal damage while setting up. With Stealth Rock support, Gyarados will rip through this team with ease after one Dragon Dance, period. There really isn't anything you can do to stop it, and it can set up on a lot of your team.

You're also going to run into trobule with a lot of bulky Waters, especially with the likes of Swampert. It's not as bad as Heatran, but it's still a hard task. Once Celebi is out for the count, this team will have a lot of trouble taking out the bulky Swampert, espeically Cursepert. Flygon's Dragon Pulse 3HKO's, while Swampert's Ice Beam OHKO's after Life Orb recoil. Gengar's Explosion (Band-less) cannot OHKO, and the other attacks do squat. Scizor can be Roared away before a Swords Dance, although once a SD is in, Bug Bite can deal heavy damage. Everything else has trouble with it (Heatran and Gyara, specifically. You have some checks, but without Celebi, you might lose someone.

Now for the team and the solutions: this team has so many things it wants to accomplish, but it just seems to fall flat. We'll look at each Poke specifically:

Gengar

This is an interesting set, and I have a feeling you had inspiration from the CBTomb lead in UU play, which does similar things. However, realize that this Gengar will be unable to prevent Stealth Rocks from being set up, which is what most anti-leads accomplish, which means that while you "beat" Azelf and Aerodactyl leads, you still let them accomplish their major goals, which is more of a draw than a win. You also lose to Jirachi leads, Metagross leads (I'm not sure that you would want to Trick it a Band), TTar leads (who OHKO you with Crunch or Payback, regardless of your 2HKO, and you don't want it Banded), Ninjask (which is funny), and Swampert. I'm not too sure what this Trick Lead can accomplish. You can go two different ways with a change: if you want to keep Gengar, you can use a different Lead set. If you want a replacement for a better Trick lead, I reccomend one that can set up Rocks as well. I'll give two sets:

Gengar @ Life Orb/Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
EV's: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
Nature: Timid
Moveset:
- Taunt
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Destiny Bond

This set is designed to shut down Leads with Taunt and Destiny Bond. Taunt prevents Rocks and force your opponent to attack or switch. You may think that you lose to Taunt, but this set takes advantage of Gengar's sky-high Special Attack and two very powerful moves that OHKO/2HKO a lot of threats. Remember how Brick Break is a 2HKO against TTar? With an Orb, Focus Blast is a OHKO. Shadow Ball has a decent chance at a 2HKO on Metagross. Azelf and Aerodactyl are 2HKO'd by Shadow Ball. Swampert is essentially 3HKO'd, but can't do anything in return. All slow leads hate Taunt. If Gengar is on the verge of being KO'd, you take advantage of Gengar's great speed and Destiny Bond, essentially scoring a free KO. Life Orb gives this set some nice power, but Foucs Sash plays well with Destiny Bond. However, this set still has flaws: Jirachi leads are still a loss, priority (like Bullet Punch) screws this over, and you still are unable to prevent Rocks from going up. However, this is a major upgrade to your set in terms of its abilities.

OR

Azelf @ Choice Scarf/Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
EV's: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
Nature: Timid
Moveset:
- Trick
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt/Psychic
- U-Turn

This is a much better Trick lead than Gengar, as not only will it be able to accomplish the same goal, but it can also set up Rocks (which this team needs desperately). Your team actually benefits well from this Azelf, as not only can it outspeed almost everything with a Scarf and screw over sets with Trick, but it can break Sashes with U-Turn (like for opposing Azelf and Aerodactyl) and can prevent Rocks from being set up. Scizor then can easily revenge with Bullet Punch (however, see my Scizor rate first). Stealth Rock ensures OHKO's on a lot of your threats, and discourages your opponent from switching often. Taunt can prevent set-up even after Trick, which helps for Stall teams that rely on two Pokes to set up hazards, while Psychic can hit a few unsuspecting Leads for OHKO's, like Gengar. Scarf is superior to Band or Specs in that it shuts down set-up leads (which is pretty much all of them) without giving a power boost to a possible half of the leads, but I suppose all three are possible.

I can see both of those sets working, but my new SpecsGar works for now. However, I'll test one or the other if I start running into more problems.

Flygon

This Flygon is completely underwhelming, as relying on Celebi to power this thing up is foolish, as once your opponent guesses that you're a CM passer, a Phazer will come out, like Skarmory or Vaporeon. Flygon's 284 Special Attack is poor (as an example, Skarmory might not OHKO'd with Flamethower, and Bronzong is 3HKO'd). I reccomend a replacement that provides the team with similar resistances, more power and speed, and has access to an instant recovery move:

Latias @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EV's: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
Nature: Timid
Moveset:
- Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Recover

Let's compare: Latias gets 319 SpA with a neutral nature, Flygon gets 284 with a positive nature. In exchange for their natures, Latias hits 350 Speed, while Flygon hits 280. It's also worth noting that Latias has the same HP value, better Defense, and superior Special Defense (great with Calm Mind boosts as a bonus), along with a better Special moveset. Water/Dragon is only resisted by Empoleon and Shedinja, and TBolt takes care of Empoleon. Dragon Pulse is not ordinary for this set, but with a Calm Mind boost from Celebi, it does almost the same damage as Draco Meteor. However, Draco Meteor with a Calm Mind boost in is devastating, so it's worth considering even with the -2 SpA drop. Surf hits a lot of counters hard, including Steels, and TBolt nails bulky Waters. You lose the immunity to Electricity, but gain a resistance to Water, have a resistance to Electricity, and change that 4x weakness to Ice to a 2x. Recover works the same as Roost, except that it doesn't ground you. Latias is the superior choice, by far.

Once again, just a minute or two too late. I'm testing an all-physical LOGon, and it works wonders. I'll keep Latias in mind, though.
Scizor

There is nothing wrong with SDScizor, and it gives you a much needed resistance typing. Keep it. However, if you choose that Azelf as a lead, consider changing this to CBScizor. You will then be able to 2HKO opposing Azelf on the U-Turn switch with Bullet Punch, as your own Azelf will break the Sash. If this is unimportant to you, changes your playstyle too much, or you choose Gengar, ignore this.

Heatran

The EV's and choice of attacks seem underwhelming. Many things still OHKO you with powerful Ground or Water attacks, regardless of HP EV investment anyway, and with the lack of Speed, you now lose to opposing Heatran and everything normal SubTran outspeeds. TormenTran does not help this team, and neither does this moveset. With that being said, Heatran as a whole helps this team with a Fire immunity and Steel resists. So, I reccomend changing this to the standard SubTran set: that's 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe with a Timid nature, with Fire Blast over Lava Plume and Toxic over Taunt. This reduces your weakness to Bulky Waters, as none like Toxic and you can stall them out since you outspeed. You now outspeed a lot of things that can harm Heatran with powerful moves. Lava Plume's Burn rate is tempting, but Fire Blast's rate is fairly high as well, and the power boost from it is greatly appreciated. Taunt is a great move overall, but there are few things that can set up on Heatran anyway that Taunt will help with, and Taunt is really more luxury than practical. Toxic is much, much more practical.

Sounds interesting. The EV spread looks nice, and I'll try Toxic over Taunt. I'm keeping Earth Power and Lava Plume for now, though.

Celebi

I'm not sure what Calm Mind passing was originally doing for your team, but my rates aim to keep main ideas intact, and Calm Mind passing seems to be a major part of your gameplan. Celebi is a good choice as well, especially with Heatran on the team. It originally didn't serve a great purpose, but now that LO Latias and the original SubTran has been added, Calm Mind passing is much more beneficial. As for Celebi itself, what is Psychic hitting hard? Psychic is generally a poor move in the OU environment, especially with Celebi's intense weakness to Scizor. I reccomend changing Psychic to HP Fire, or else Scizor will mop the floor with you and this team. After one Calm Mind, HP Fire OHKO's Scizor before he can OHKO you with U-Turn. You will always outspeed Scizor. This also prevents Skarmory from setting up on you, as he resists both of your attacks, as well as giving you a better time against Bronzong and Metagross switches.

Celebi isn't actually doing much for me. I'll test HP Fire, but if that doesn't work, I'll probably change to a bulkier variant.

Gyarados

I can immediately guess why CBGyara seems underwhelming to you: he has less than average Speed, and it's made worse by forcing it to use only one move. I believe it's around 287, which sounds decent up until the point that all of your counters outpace you without a Dragon Dance boost. However, I would definitely say that Gyarados' resistances play well with the team as a whole. I suspect that the Bulky DDGyarados will play a similar role to the team, but with a lot more Speed and more Attack power. Let's try a little twist:

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EV's: 156/72 Atk/96 Def/184 Spe
Nature: Adamant
Moveset:
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge/Return
- Taunt

After one Dragon Dance, Gyarados reaches an amazing Speed level compared to the Band version, and thanks to Dragon Dance, this set has the ability to take a lot of hits due to EV investment without having to lose firepower. It is also good to note that after a DD, Gyara hits almost the same Attack as with a Band (the exact same if he were to have 200 Atk EV's, but the bulk might benefit more). With this Gyarados, you are now able to use Gyarados as not only a reliable, heavy-hitting sweeper, but a Poke that can switch in on a lot of resistances and wreck havoc. Stone Edge ensures that you OHKO opposing Gyarados and Salamence after Rocks and Intimidate, but Return gives Gyarados the famous Water/Normal combo, being only resisted by Empoleon and Shedinja. Both are acceptable and are up to personal preference. If you feel that Taunt is not working out, you can try Substitute over Taunt to block status and get an extra boost in.

That looks really good. I'm assuming that the 156 is for HP. I'll try him out.
Hope this helps, and good luck with the team!

This was really helpful. Thanks!

EDIT: Actually, I really like the direction this team is taking. No need to apologize. These sets are fun to use and less common, even if they are a little more on the beaten path.

 

[DarkSlay]

I'm glad you liked my rates. :) Now, I just have one final thing to add, looking at the newly revamped team:

Now that you have chosen the Physical Life Orb Flygon set, you only have two Pokemon that can take advantage of Calm Mind: Celebi herself, and Heatran. This alone should tell you that Calm Mind passing will be unnecessary and a little bit of a waste for the team, as Heatran has enough strength as it is, and that Celebi set isn't designed to sweep at all. You need to change Celebi's set to match your new team. The good news is with Heatran, Gyarados, and your own Scizor on the team, you don't need Tinkerbell to take on Scizor. I'm going to reccomend two Pokes: one is a different set for Celebi, and the other is something that I feel will bring something new to the table. Ironically, both sets are near identical, and the Pokemon are almost exactly the same. The only difference is a variation of typing, and the movesets:

Celebi @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EV's: 32 Def/252 SpA/224 Spe
Nature: Timid
Moveset:
- Recover
- Leaf Storm
- Psychic
- HP Fire/Earth Power

With Flygon out of the picture for Special Attackers, you now only have Heatran to effectively dish out Special hits. This means that Physical Walls, like Swampert, Skarmory, and Hippowdon (as well as bulky spreads of sweepers) will give you a lot of trouble. You need to be able to have another Special Attacker on this team, as it seems this team has a Bulky Offense feeling to it. In that regard, why not get the best out of Celebi then? This set is designed to hit the majority of the metagame with strong neutral STAB attacks, and hit Celebi's threats with SE damage. The EV's are designed to outpace certain threats 100% of the time, like Roserade, Electivire, and Porygon-Z, and KO them. Leaf Storm is a great attack initially, but the -2 SpA drop may be undesirable to you. Grass Knot is okay, but you will have a harder time taking on Vaporeon head-to-head, which is why Leaf Storm is reccomended. Psychic is good neutral coverage and gets STAB. The last move is designed to counter two individual Pokes that wall this set depending on the last move: Scizor and Heatran. Scizor will dent you with U-Turn, which makes HP Fire the first choice for a OHKO. You will then be walled, however, by Heatran. Earth Power hits Heatran for a OHKO, but you will have a hard time with Scizor and Skarmory. It's more of a "pick your poison" kind of a deal here.

OR

Shaymin @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EV's: 32 HP/252 SpA/224 Spe
Nature: Timid
Moveset:
- Synthesis/Rest
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power/Leech Seed
- HP Ice/HP Fire/Air Slash

Shaymin! It may seem like an inferior Celebi at first, but in reality, Shaymin brings a lot of different things to the table that Celebi cannot, most notably better typing (lose the STAB on Psychic and gain a 2x weakness to Bug, and no weaknesses to Dark and Ghost. The loss of resistances to Psychic and Fighting are trivial.) and a better Special Grass attack in Seed Flare. The only downside comparison-wise is the loss of a 100% reliability healing move. I find that Synthesis works well a great majority of the time, but TTar does like to screw this up. Rest abuses Natural Cure, although the constant switching may be unwanted. The moveset looks messy, and that's because Shaymin has the ability to mold into a lot of things that a team needs offensively. The main pull for Shaymin over Celebi is Seed Flare, which has the ability to 3HKO Blissey after one -2 SpD drop, let alone things that are weak to Special Attacks.. This move also doesn't drop your own Special Attack. It only has 8 PP, though, so use it sparingly. Whereas Celebi is the ultimate Scizor lure, Shaymin is the ultimate Heatran lure, and I have a feeling that (especially when the new Ranger comes out and Heatran can get Eruption) Heatran usage will rise sky-high soon. Earth Power will be a OHKO on it, and it also hits a good amount of Fire types for OHKO's (like Infernape) as well as Electric and Steels. Leech Seed helps against Special walls who think they can wall you to no end, and causes a lot of switching. However, you lose the ability to hit Heatran, and the switching point is not needed as your team runs zero hazards. The last move is in the same vein as Celebi: HP Fire hits Scizor and Skarm. HP Ice OHKO's and 2HKO's the Dragons who would evidently wall this set with HP Fire. Air Slash provides nice coverage on Dragons and Scizor (neutral), and has a nice 30% flinch rate (Shaymin hits 326 Speed, which is really good with Flinch). Now, I know I threw a lot of moves at you, so I'll give you a suggested moveset. Seeing as though your team has a lot of ways to deal with Scizor, and your team's overall weakness to Heatran, I suggest this set:

- Synthesis/Rest
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power
- HP Ice

I reccomend testing both Synthesis and Rest, and seeing which one works best for you. This is also, ironically, the same set I run.

Hope this helps solve your Celebi problem.

EDIT: I've just playtested this team with some adjustments I made. I changed Gengar to the Trick Azelf lead (Gengar lost to everything) and changed Celebi to Shaymin. I went 12-4 in a span of 16 games after these changes, which is pretty decent. You're going to have a hard time trying to counter the Rotom forms, especially Bulky spreads. Your only counters are Heatran (Lava Plume doesn't do a whole lot) and Shaymin, who outspeeds and OHKO's with Seed Flare. This team also needs Stealth Rock desperately, as many a time I found myself getting KO'd becuase I could not OHKO a threat, and left him with less than 5% of damage.

As for each Pokemon: Azelf has always gotten off its Scarf against all leads first, and got up Rocks over half of the time, which is decent for a Trick lead. Flygon is...too sporadic. Two matches, he did very well. The others he was OHKO'd or Burned. I'm going to try switching him for a Latias later. Keep SDScizor, as I found that he easily gets in a Swords Dance and can KO at least one or two Pokemon before he goes down. SubTran is amazing, and actually, Lava Plume isn't that bad. Sometimes I missed the extra power for 2HKO's, but I did manage to Burn a lot of switches. Shaymin is working well for the team, and does a nice job of eating bulky Waters, which helped a ton. BulkyGyara seemed to be one of the best on the team, though. Just make sure you don't put too much weight on Gyara and Scizor!

 

[Woe of Tyrants]

I just beat this team 3-0.

After playing against it, I can tell you that you've got a major DD Gyara weakness (If Bounce hadn't of missed 3 times like that, I would have swept your team.) and you've got a major Heatran weakness if it's Scarved. TBH, I'd probably drop Flygon altogether for something like CM Latias and change Celebi to a phystically defensive Twave set. This will do a lot more for your team both offensively and defensively. Also, on your Gyara, I'm not quite sure what Return is hitting that Waterfall/Stone Edge won't hit just as hard. You've gotta have Stone Edge to be able to beat other Gyaras.

Also, you gave up on Heatran way too quickly by switching it into Gyara after I Dragon Danced. Heatran is going to do great things in the way of defensive play for your team if you learn how to use it in tandem with Celebi. Celebi is going to be able to successfully counter every one of Heatran's counters aside from my oddball Gyarados, which is probably going to be able to be dealt with by the other members of your team. Maybe try Scarftran?

Your Lead just blows. =/ No, it's not going to beat Azelf/Metagross/Aerodactyl/Etc. due to Sashes/Speed/Defenses. If you're going to go with a lead that's essentially a suicide lead, go with something like Azelf that can blow up while still denting a majority of the most popular leads and contributing to your team with Rocks/Screens or whatever you choose. Gengar isn't doing anything other than Tricking and dying.

Also, with the number of Scizor counters running around, the Swords Dance set doesn't seem to be the best option right now. I feel like a bulky Choice Band set would greatly contribute to your team both offensively and defensively, trapping the Latis and revenging threats like DD Mence and chipping at Gyara switch-ins with U-Turn and SR.

Anyways, there's my two cents. Good luck with the team.

 

[mudkipmaster]

First of all, I've had many teams with a trick lead gengar. None of them quite worked out... One thing that cripples Gengar is a Choice Band Shadow punch lead Dusknoir which is actually more popular than you'd think. I'd change celebi with a Mr. Mime... Yes a Mr. Mime. Celebi has to many weaknesses and Mr. Mime is an amazing CM passer.

Other than that I see nothing wrong with your team.

 

[Woe of Tyrants]

First of all, I've had many teams with a trick lead gengar. None of them quite worked out... One thing that cripples Gengar is a Choice Band Shadow punch lead Dusknoir which is actually more popular than you'd think. I'd change celebi with a Mr. Mime... Yes a Mr. Mime. Celebi has to many weaknesses and Mr. Mime is an amazing CM passer.

Other than that I see nothing wrong with your team.

Nobody uses that lead. And why the hell would a CB Dusknoir use Shadow Punch over Shadow Sneak when Shadow Sneak would get the OHKO on Gengar regardless of it's lower damage?

Also, Celebi and Mister Mime share the exact same weaknesses except Celebi's weakness to Fire and 4x weakness to Bug which can be remedied by Calm Mind and HP Fire respectively. Mister Mime has much lower stats and can't be utilized as a bulky Pokemon nearly as well as Celebi can, not to mention Celebi has a lot more resistances than Mister Mime does.