This is what I'm trying to say. It's not broken if you prepare for it
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np: UU - Can't Touch This
- Thread starter reachzero
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This is what I'm trying to say. It's not broken if you prepare for it
Even though Toxic Spikes is meh in the UU metagame, it pretty much bones most Rain teams, as they opt to use Kabutops as their main physical sweeper. Use it together with Haze Milotic and Rain teams will have trouble getting past (Ludicolo might cause problems, but he can played around, with stuff like Chansey, Registeel and Cresselia, although you can stall him out of Rain turns by clever switching). You can have an effective Stall team based around Toxic Spikes and keeping them in play and do fairly well (My team has TS and SubRoost Moltres, and aim to get rid of Poisons as soon as possible, and although it is always a challenge to fight Rain teams, they haven't beaten me nearly as often as I have beaten them).
people don't want to prepare for rain. They want to use the same pokes they always use and expect the metagame to evolve around the pokes they like to use. Everything else is considered a "gimmick" and if they have to use something they don't like its BROKEN!!!
Well, Heysup you've got a point. We just need to prepare better to play against a Rain Team. I mean, common, if people just used a weather changer on thier team Abomasnow could might as well be UU again. Staraptor might as well be retested because god knows Cressalia can take multiple hits from it and heal up. Crobat who didn't even fit any charecteristic perfectly should be UU two because according to the previous post there is no such thing as 'gimmick' checks and if I do recall.. Crobat had a lot of 'gimmick' checks.... Oh there is more... Shaymin can be checked by Venusaur, Jumpluff, blah blah blah...
" I lose when I use a Rain Team against a team who has a rain counter/ check(s). However, I can beat those teams with my standard team."
Looking at the here and now, we are only try to gimp Rain Dance not ruin it. I'd rather ban an item than 1-2 Pokemon. When you have to stall out ~5+ turns just to mount an offense something is wrong there. NO you cannot setup anything while Rain is. Because the first setup will be Electrode or Ambipom meaning there will be taunt. Second setup will more than likely be Raikou, Uxie, or Registeel and each have thier own ways of supporting Rain Dance.
" I lose when I use a Rain Team against a team who has a rain counter/ check(s). However, I can beat those teams with my standard team."
Looking at the here and now, we are only try to gimp Rain Dance not ruin it. I'd rather ban an item than 1-2 Pokemon. When you have to stall out ~5+ turns just to mount an offense something is wrong there. NO you cannot setup anything while Rain is. Because the first setup will be Electrode or Ambipom meaning there will be taunt. Second setup will more than likely be Raikou, Uxie, or Registeel and each have thier own ways of supporting Rain Dance.
Stop with the "PREPARE FOR RAIN" thing. I have a water absorber, and three other water resists. I still lose to rain on occasion. The best rain teams I've faced usually have a 40:60 win ratio against me (in my favor), while the average rain team is more 25:75. That might not seem that broken, but when you consider that I have a substantially better win ratio against every other type of team on the ladder, including stall teams, compared with the amount of effort it takes other teams to beat me in those matches and the effort it takes rain to beat me (spam water attacks until they see my water absorber, then try to catch it on the switch with a grass attack...) you have a pretty clear discrepancy between rain and all other team styles. If you guys look at the Policy Review thread on the Ideal Metagame, two of the things emphasized are competitiveness (where one strategy is not substantially favorable to another due to ease of use or win chance) and skill-based play (where players of higher skill are consistently rewarded over players of lower skill). Rain removes the skill aspect due to matches coming down to "prediction" (coin flips) and it removes the competitiveness aspect since winning with a rain team is about as difficult as sweeping with Rayquaza in OU.
Since I have the time i'll post my 'findings' of UU.
Bulky SD Feraligatr makes for an OK lead. He offers to be an immediate threat Early-Mid- and late game. He is definetly an ideal canidate for teams who are cramming sweepers into a team.
Alakazam is THE best lead. Specifically a set of Taunt-Encore-Reflect-LightScreen the only thing that really beats him is random Swellow leads and Electrode leads. I paired him up with Support Rhyperior who after setting up Stealth Rock can procede to 1-2HKO most things that would normally threaten him.
I don't see P-Z often and when I do I usually have enough Priority attacks to take him down. Otherwise, he would be to much for my team(s).
Not much else to say.
Bulky SD Feraligatr makes for an OK lead. He offers to be an immediate threat Early-Mid- and late game. He is definetly an ideal canidate for teams who are cramming sweepers into a team.
Alakazam is THE best lead. Specifically a set of Taunt-Encore-Reflect-LightScreen the only thing that really beats him is random Swellow leads and Electrode leads. I paired him up with Support Rhyperior who after setting up Stealth Rock can procede to 1-2HKO most things that would normally threaten him.
I don't see P-Z often and when I do I usually have enough Priority attacks to take him down. Otherwise, he would be to much for my team(s).
Not much else to say.
that alakazam lead gets beat by ALOT of other leads, Trick Uxie, spiritomb, Trick Frosslass, most aimbipom just U-turn out to a specific counter.... I wonder why as well PZ is getting much love...it can easily wreak havoc on majority of teams with just decent team support lol...
Also I couldnt tell if you were being sarcastic about staraptor and crobat and what not being dropped back down to UU again...but that would be one of the worse decisions to ever make is to bring those pokes back down
My RD team once got swept by a RP rhyperior. They stalled out the 1st 8 turns and then brang him on my Uxie RP'd twice and just abliterated all my frail sweepers. I know use thing this might not work but if I send out my RP rhyperior are you honestly gonna taunt with your Ambipom Electrode
You are already a turn behind~
Try him, and then you will know. And yes I was being sarcastic. My point was that, sure you can prepare for anything but when it is so 'rare' it is almost unpractical to use any (Pokemon) to beat it. I assure you that more people are laddering with Rain Teams, since this discussion started, for those easy wins.
Also, FlareBlitz brought up an excellent point. Something I was orignally going to post but didn't.
This is not a direct arguement for either side but it brings up some interesting points.
hey with the ability to beat frosslass lead i honestly cant argue with it then hahahah
Can you support this claim? Not one person has explained why people's rain counters are "bullshit". I suspect that there is no other reason then "they aren't".
How is Dual Screening as Rain is set up bullshit?
How is priority bullshit?
How is Registeel bullshit?
How is Slow[bro/king]/any "water-type" bullshit?
How is Cresselia bullshit?
How is Milotic bullshit?
Etc.
These Pokemon can "at least" beat a rain sweeper before dying, sometimes even two. They can even switch into some.
In any event, the only thing I can think of that you can possibly mention is "Kabutops", since it's the only thing that really beats all of those Pokemon / isn't destroyed by them.
So... changing the subject (and the weather) a bit, has anyone tried Sun so far? By running that on the last few days, even though it's not as powerful as rain, I've found that many teams don't prepare for Sun as much as they do for its rainy counterpart, thus it has been quite easy to get a solid CRE with it. Oh yeah, and Specs Typhlosion is just the end of the world under sun, being able to (IIRC) 2HKO Chansey, Milotic, Regirock, Slowbro, Azumarill (even if the second Eruption is performed after Aqua Jet damage) and OHKO some Cresselia, Uxie, most Rhyperiors and such; all that having a Timid Nature; and having pretty much no safe switch in but Flash Fire pokés. Finally, Blaze closes the package, boosting Fire Blasts when at low HP.
I have very few problems with Sunny Day. I have Flash Fire Arcanine, which usually dismantles the fire side of the team by itself, and Altaria, which takes out the Grass-oriented side. Sunny Day only powers up STAB or Speed, since there's no fire-type with Chlorophyll, which makes it underwhelming against offense/stall, respectively, and really underwhelming against Balance.
How is Dual Screening as Rain is set up bullshit? So everyone has to run a Screen strategy... idiot
How is priority bullshit? Bulk negates this completely, not to mention priority is weak as fuck.
How is Registeel bullshit? SD Kabutops
How is Slow[bro/king]/any "water-type" bullshit? SD Ludicolo
How is Cresselia bullshit? Quilfish explodo (in any case Cress will be booted so its irrelevant)
How is Milotic bullshit? lol
How is priority bullshit? Bulk negates this completely, not to mention priority is weak as fuck.
How is Registeel bullshit? SD Kabutops
How is Slow[bro/king]/any "water-type" bullshit? SD Ludicolo
How is Cresselia bullshit? Quilfish explodo (in any case Cress will be booted so its irrelevant)
How is Milotic bullshit? lol
Well, that's where Regirock (which you recommended xP)/ Flash Fire Pokés/ Dugtrio (who, even though I don't use it myself, can setup sun and isn't OHKOed by Xspeed IIRC) and Hidden Power Ice/ Explosion/ Sleep Powder come in respectively. Also, I have to say it hasn't been underwhelming, dismantling many teams from the get go. Also, regarding stall, Typhlosion is excellent at opening holes in the early game, as literally nothing (on the top of my head) can take 2 Eruptions (except for Omastar and Altaria, who will pay the price for being brave; while the former still loses).
GBA said:
You may have been sarcastic here but comparing the BLs to rain is just begging the question, not to mention I personally think that it's an exaggeration.
FlareBlitz said:
I have to ask whether you're seriously trying to play that card, because I'd say you're misusing it.
I'm not entirely sure whether your first remark was referring to Variety or to Balance (definitely not Competitive). What you've said does not truly describe either characteristic; Variety is described as: "The metagame should have the widest possible variety of playing options and strategies that are viable and competitive for knowledgeable players." Rain doesn't seem to be reducing viable team types from what I have seen. Balance reads: "All viable playing options and strategies should be as competitively balanced as possible, in relation to each other." It continues, "When any elements of the metagame are considerably better than others, it gives an intrinsic advantage to players that prefer or excel with the superior elements, and handicaps players who are most proficient with other elements." I don't think that Rain does this, either. I don't feel handicapped at all by not using a Rain team.
Your second remark is a bit clearer and it's obvious that you're talking about Skill: "The metagame should require knowledge and practice to become an expert player and to achieve consistent success at the highest levels of play." But notice that this does not say anything at all about ease of making it to the top of the ladder. Instead, it merely says that Pokémon should require practice to master it and become an expert at it. I just don't see a newbie bursting into UU with a rain team and making it to the top of the ladder.
It doesn't matter that you think that prediction is equivalent to coin flips because, well, it really isn't. No matter how hard you try, eventually you go through so many battles that you end up doing things habitually, and then a better player can come along and read your every move. Anyone who's played iterated Prisoner's Dilemma, iterated Rock Paper Scissors, etc. will tell you that prediction isn't just a coin flip.
Finally, are you seriously comparing rain to Rayquaza? Seriously? Jumpman16 already showed just how Uber Rayquaza is in this post. Rain is not nearly as broken as Rayquaza is.
Smurf. said:
Um, lrn2logic? All Heysup did was give you several possible Rain checking methods. That hardly means that "everyone" has to run Screens or w/e. Also notice how all your answers to these checks are different, which means that the Rain player must now switch to that counter, wasting precious Rain time. That's not even mentioning Registeel TWaving Kabutops, a Bulky Water TWaving Ludicolo, etc.
I swear, it's like some people don't even try to beat Rain teams using *gasp* skill and thinking. You don't have to start calling people idiots lol.
I was merely pointing out how all these 'counters' are shaky as hell, not to mention heysup himself admitted that KABUTOPS runs through pretty much every single one of them. Hence, no 'rain wasting'.
None of those pokes can single handly stop rain by themselves...they ease prediction for rain and can temporarly slow down rain teams..but with good prediction on rain side they can all be defeated...and also SD ludciolo beats a majority of those counters except registeel and cresselia
If they opt for Qwilfish, it would generally mean they are not using Kabutops (Although using both together sounds pretty nasty actually), and Qwilfish is much easier to handle. It's pretty much forced to Explode on something like Milotic (And you can easily predict that and go to a Ghost).
Its not forced to explode at all....it can get another sword dance in and Poison jab
Are you serious? Obviously Heysup isn't saying "add one of these to your team and you're rain proof". Don't be so foolish as to think he was actually proposing full-blown counters to rain. If any of these pokemon could stop rain by themselves it wouldn't such a hot-button issue.
A lot of people agree with your sentiment, but it doesn't do you or your argument any good to act like a jackass and say "omg rain is so broken and I don't care what anyone says" because you "can". This thread is for actually discussing things, not for spewing your opinion with complete disregard for what other people have to say.
jamashawalker said:
No stall Pokémon can single-handedly stop hyper offense by itself. What's your point?
You kidding? Using a combo of Qwilfish + Kaputops is pro. You can use Qwilfish to take care of anything that can wall Kabutops. Adding Ludicolo to that combo is pretty much gg. Also HP Grass Milotics do little to Qwilfish, and there's twice as many of those as there are with HP Electric. So Milotic does little other than let Qwilfish set up SD. Dunno how it's 'forced to Explode' (although that's a perfectly fine strategy, nobody is balsy enough to switch to a ghost and probably let you set up SD)
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