Code:
252 Modest Choice Specs Latias Surf
vs. 4/0 Adamant Choice Band Scizor : 64.8% - 76.5%
vs. 248/0 Adamant Choice Band Scizor : 53.1% - 62.7%
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np: Stage 3-4 - Wait why is this so familiar didn't I just go through this what did I
- Thread starter Jumpman16
- Start date
Timid is more useful on Latias, I reckon, running Modest lets you get outsped by Base 100s, which means you'll get killed by stuff you really shouldn't getting killed by. Stuff include Timid Manaphy, Naive Mixmence and stuff like that, stuff which Latias should just destroy were it not for the player getting greedy and wanting extra power.
I agree. You also tie with Gengar and Latias, and beat HP Fire Latias (or tie with them, depending on what you're running). I find a 50% chance of winning better than an 0%, given that you'll be beating Infernape, Salamence, etc. as well. The power boost isn't that big considering you won't be hitting any important KOs but will be getting KOed by a lot of stuff that you can otherwise kill with Latias. Her 110 base Speed is a very big part of her usefulness. Fast Modest Latias is just silly imo.
I'd like to point something out before people start writing paragraphs:
The Support Characteristic is more than just support moves!
This may sound obvious, but I've seen several people state only that in their paragraph, completely neglecting the Support Characteristic's main focus -- showing how Pokemon X can ease on other's sweeps. Let's take Latias as an example -- instead of focusing on DS and Wish.. and even Healing Wish, let's instead focus on how Latias formes holes in opposing teams with DM and Trick (and even with lure sets), easing on other Pokemon's sweeps. This is why Specs Latias and SD Lucario work so well. Just calc Specs Latias' DMs and Jolly Lucario's +2 LO Extremespeed against Tyranitar and Scizor, factoring in SR, to see where I'm going. I think most voters may be missing a cruical point in their votes by missing this.
The Support Characteristic is more than just support moves!
This may sound obvious, but I've seen several people state only that in their paragraph, completely neglecting the Support Characteristic's main focus -- showing how Pokemon X can ease on other's sweeps. Let's take Latias as an example -- instead of focusing on DS and Wish.. and even Healing Wish, let's instead focus on how Latias formes holes in opposing teams with DM and Trick (and even with lure sets), easing on other Pokemon's sweeps. This is why Specs Latias and SD Lucario work so well. Just calc Specs Latias' DMs and Jolly Lucario's +2 LO Extremespeed against Tyranitar and Scizor, factoring in SR, to see where I'm going. I think most voters may be missing a cruical point in their votes by missing this.
Also, remember that breaking one wall DOES NOT fit the support characteristic. That's just killing one pokemon, and any pokemon on the team should be able to do that. If something is fitting the support characteristic by wall-breaking, it should be doing that to several walls on the opponent's team, and it should be doing it consistently for it to be uber.
The big problem I see with using the support characteristic with wall-breaking is that some people think that if something doesn't fit the offensive characteristic, they can always try with the support characteristic. No, the support characteristic is not just some fall-back that you can use for offensive pokemon who aren't good enough to consistently sweep the opponent's team. If it's truly uber with its wall-breaking abilities in the support characteristic, like I said, it better be breaking several walls on the opponent's team, and it should be doing it consistently to warrant uber status.
I agree, though maybe I didn't explain enough. We are in a metagame where almost every team has some kind of Tyranitar/Scizor/Jirachi/Blissey in them, with one of the main reasons for them being there is to stop Latias. Although, often when they attemp to do so they can't go on doing what they're meant to do other than that. A Tricked Blissey cannot stop threats like CM Jirachi, CM Suicune and Charge Beam Rotom-A. A weakened Jirachi can't switch into Gyarados wwith impunity anymore. Like I already said, Scizor and ScarfTar cannot scratch a +2 Lucario when weakened enough. Your point is valid, though these are situations that happen commonly and I don't think they should be overlooked at all. I'm really not sure yet on how much is this "consistently setting up a situation", but if not I think it's pretty damn close to it.
Just something on recent discussion on whether Manaphy or Latias is metagame shifting or not (And on Manaphy having unreliable counters), here's two extracts from the Colossoil discussion in the Smog (Here):
I posted this in the UU Rain Discussion as well, because I think it is a good argument. CAP is a completely different metagame, but the arguments are the same. Firstly, on the topic of Manaphy: Having no concrete counter doesn't automatically make it an Uber. You can check different variants with different Pokemon. On the story of Latias, we know it has made the metagame adapt to it, but is that really enough to make it Uber?? Not exactly.
I posted this in the UU Rain Discussion as well, because I think it is a good argument. CAP is a completely different metagame, but the arguments are the same. Firstly, on the topic of Manaphy: Having no concrete counter doesn't automatically make it an Uber. You can check different variants with different Pokemon. On the story of Latias, we know it has made the metagame adapt to it, but is that really enough to make it Uber?? Not exactly.
Shrang said:
I firmly believe that we are able to adapt to almost any threat (be it Groudon, Deoxys, Palkia, etc) and be able to slow down it down. We did this with Garchomp, the whole metagame had found a way to "deal" with the threat but it was still voted uber. There is a certain point where a threat causes you to adapt and a point where the threat controls the metagame. There is nothing wrong with adapting to a threat, hell thats what any good player will do. Much like UU, there have been many Pokemon that have been dropped down and the players adapt to a seemingly overpowered threat (Rhyperior, Alakazam, or Dugtrio in UU anyone?) But there is a certain level where no matter how much you adapt, the threat is still overpowering and is controlling the tier. I believe Latias controls the whole metagame and even with its checks, can still open up an entire team that is prepared for it, much like Garchomp was able. So yes, the metagame has adapted to Latias, I don't think anyone is able to deny this, but I believe that it is at a level that is unhealthy for the metagame.
I don't think that this argument is entirely relevant. Scizor has forced the metagame to adapt to it since D\P\Pt come out, we've been forced to found several ways to counter and check it, and we still consider it OU material.
Defining what you call "a certain level, where no matter how much you adapt, the threat is still overpowering and is controlling the tier" is kinda hard to be honest. I might say that having to run hp fire on Celebi or having to pack a dedicated Scizor counter to prevent my team from being massacred by its CB u-turns or being swept late game by its bullet punches could lead a Pokemon like Scizor to reach that "certain point", but we all would still be quite sceptical about testing it for ubers, as we know that it CAN be countered, checked and revenge killed.
Again, the centralization determined by certain Pokemon doesn't make them uber (because you're still talking about centralization in your post) and to be honest I find pretty hard to beleive that people are sweeping teams "with little effort" using Latias.
The support characteristic is another story, but then again lots of specs or band users would fall under that characteristic in the way some of you are interpreting it. Specs Heatran can 1-2hko the whole metagame barring Blissey and Snorlax and can open holes for things like Gyarados and Infernape to sweep (considering that they often share the same counters), but we would never claim that it fulfills the support characteristic. The same can be said for CB TTar considering that it can eliminate or severely injure things like Gliscor, making it easier for Lucario to sweep later in the game. As stated before in this thread, there are just some extremely powerful offensive combinations in the game.
I do agree that Latias' combination of speed and dragon typing, paired with good defensive stats makes her slightly harder to deal with than say Heatran, but on the other hand the psychic typing makes her quite easy to revenge kill and\or trap if you switch in your pursuitier at the right time.
Defining what you call "a certain level, where no matter how much you adapt, the threat is still overpowering and is controlling the tier" is kinda hard to be honest. I might say that having to run hp fire on Celebi or having to pack a dedicated Scizor counter to prevent my team from being massacred by its CB u-turns or being swept late game by its bullet punches could lead a Pokemon like Scizor to reach that "certain point", but we all would still be quite sceptical about testing it for ubers, as we know that it CAN be countered, checked and revenge killed.
Again, the centralization determined by certain Pokemon doesn't make them uber (because you're still talking about centralization in your post) and to be honest I find pretty hard to beleive that people are sweeping teams "with little effort" using Latias.
The support characteristic is another story, but then again lots of specs or band users would fall under that characteristic in the way some of you are interpreting it. Specs Heatran can 1-2hko the whole metagame barring Blissey and Snorlax and can open holes for things like Gyarados and Infernape to sweep (considering that they often share the same counters), but we would never claim that it fulfills the support characteristic. The same can be said for CB TTar considering that it can eliminate or severely injure things like Gliscor, making it easier for Lucario to sweep later in the game. As stated before in this thread, there are just some extremely powerful offensive combinations in the game.
I do agree that Latias' combination of speed and dragon typing, paired with good defensive stats makes her slightly harder to deal with than say Heatran, but on the other hand the psychic typing makes her quite easy to revenge kill and\or trap if you switch in your pursuitier at the right time.
But the level of centralization and whether or not it promotes a stable, healthy, and playable metagame are what truly make the difference, which is why we're having it put to a vote. Latias doesn't sweep teams, but its presence is unmistakable and has caused an incredible metagame shift that only serves to further restrict team building options. If it were deemed Uber, I could definitely see it running for the Support Characteristic for the simple fact that it's an all-purpose threat remover and can open up venues for the rest of your team to sweep freely.
Probably they do make the difference, but then again the factors you mentioned are not crystallized into any of the ubers characteristics. I believe that the current OU metagame is perfectly stable and playable, with Latias fitting it nicely.
I think the entire centralization argument stems mostly from the fact that we define the metagame, and a lot of people in general are dissatisfied with the metagame having Latias in it. Furthermore, centralization becomes an issue when teams are forced to run inferior Pokemon in many regards simply to pose a viable threat to a Pokemon. This sort of centralization opens up holes in a substantial number of teams that can subsequently be exploited, which is most definitely an interpretation of the support characteristic. This can most easily be seen with Manaphy and the general type of response to it. Everything in OU that beats it is smashed by TTar, so people had to invent other solutions; that can be seen as detrimental to the metagame.
Scizor has counters for every move it can use, and oftentimes - short of very bold moves - it is very predictable. If it comes in on Mence, for instance, it won't be u-turning. Latias is not quite the same in all of these regards.
You have two Pokemon who are the 'best' Latias counters. (Unlike Scizor, where numerous beat its moves) These are Scizor and Tyranitar. If these Pokemon are removed, dealing with Latias can be nigh-on impossible short of getting lucky, predicting perfectly every time, or being forced to revenge kill it. Being forced to revenge kill it isn't really a point to make, as anything in the game can be revenge killed, even ubers, so there's no merit in going "It can be revenge killed" as a mode of argument for Latias tiering. Despite being choiced, Dragon-type attacks have remarkable coverage, and her Draco Meteor is tied with Mence's for strongest in OU. Furthermore, Surf alone as a backup move gives her neutral coverage on everything in the metagame bar Empoleon and Shedinja (lol). This is yet another thing that Scizor wishes it could claim. Her Surfs are no joke, either, 2HKOing both of the behemoths that counter her, soundly beating Scizor if it switches into one and potentially beating ScarfTar if she's lured it out previously to take residual damage. Even Blissey, who normally has nothing to fear from special attackers, has something to fear in being Trick'd Specs.
I feel that the difference between Scizor and Latias is clear. Scizor has checks, reliable counters that can take beatings from it, is rather slow, and can be beaten by numerous Pokemon. Latias, on the other hand, has 2 checks, neither of which are reliable in all cases, is remarkably fast at base 110, and simply doesn't have the numerous checks in place to keep it fair game for OU. Its stats and ability to hit everything in the game neutral and powerfully between two moves is remarkable and matched only by a far weaker Kingdra. (Without setup, of course) These things, while alone not damning, together push Latias well over the limit for the OU metagame.
That's my stance on the matter, anyways.
Scizor is a great example of what centralization and the positive impact it can have on a metagame. Despite its overwhelming power, many Pokemon stand vigilant against it. One of the most important things in its not being broken, however, is the fact that it's most effective set is choiced. It is too slow to wield the versatility at any given time to be uber, while if it uses Agility to get there, it's too weak offensively to properly threaten foes. Furthermore, its biggest kicker of an attack is resisted by the already enormously bulky waters of OU, which is just another notch in its "not uber" markup.Haunter said:
Scizor has counters for every move it can use, and oftentimes - short of very bold moves - it is very predictable. If it comes in on Mence, for instance, it won't be u-turning. Latias is not quite the same in all of these regards.
You have two Pokemon who are the 'best' Latias counters. (Unlike Scizor, where numerous beat its moves) These are Scizor and Tyranitar. If these Pokemon are removed, dealing with Latias can be nigh-on impossible short of getting lucky, predicting perfectly every time, or being forced to revenge kill it. Being forced to revenge kill it isn't really a point to make, as anything in the game can be revenge killed, even ubers, so there's no merit in going "It can be revenge killed" as a mode of argument for Latias tiering. Despite being choiced, Dragon-type attacks have remarkable coverage, and her Draco Meteor is tied with Mence's for strongest in OU. Furthermore, Surf alone as a backup move gives her neutral coverage on everything in the metagame bar Empoleon and Shedinja (lol). This is yet another thing that Scizor wishes it could claim. Her Surfs are no joke, either, 2HKOing both of the behemoths that counter her, soundly beating Scizor if it switches into one and potentially beating ScarfTar if she's lured it out previously to take residual damage. Even Blissey, who normally has nothing to fear from special attackers, has something to fear in being Trick'd Specs.
I feel that the difference between Scizor and Latias is clear. Scizor has checks, reliable counters that can take beatings from it, is rather slow, and can be beaten by numerous Pokemon. Latias, on the other hand, has 2 checks, neither of which are reliable in all cases, is remarkably fast at base 110, and simply doesn't have the numerous checks in place to keep it fair game for OU. Its stats and ability to hit everything in the game neutral and powerfully between two moves is remarkable and matched only by a far weaker Kingdra. (Without setup, of course) These things, while alone not damning, together push Latias well over the limit for the OU metagame.
That's my stance on the matter, anyways.
Being "dissatisfied with the metagame" is, once again, a subjective stance of some of you guys, and has nothing to do with the 3 ubers characteristic. And anyway, even following your argument, apparently the majority of the voters in stage 3-3 were "satisfied" with the current metagame, and they voted Latias OU.
How are TTar, Scizor or Blissey "inferior" Pokemon?!? As far as I know they were pretty common even before Latias was moved to OU. And if people are forced to pack things to "counter" dragon attacks, don't blame Latias for that, but just Game Freak.
Yeah, but on the other hand it can just scout for its counters dealing massive damage to them anyway with u-turn, then come back later in the game and revenge kill things with pursuit and bulllet punch. Isn't this "make it substantially easier for other Pokemon to sweep"?
Scizor might be predictable, but so is Latias as, unlike things like Salamence, it can effectively attack only from the special side of the attacking spectrum. We all know that STAB'd dragon moves are hard to sponge, but then again blame the dragon type for this, not Latias. Specs-Mence's draco meteor are as strong as Latias', but Mence is even more troublesome as it can effectively attack with both physical and special moves, not to mention that it has access to a 120 base power fire move to pair with its dragon attacks.
Blissey, Snorlax, Metagross and defensive Jirachi are good counters as well. Trick might help with Blissey, but after the trick Latias loses her ability to open holes into teams as her moves won't be hitting that hard.
Revenge killing is just another possible way to deal with Latias. Most of the time revenge killing is the only way to get rid of dragons anyway, and the revenge killing argument applies to Salamence and Dragonite as well. Then again, blame dragon type for being so powerful. Anyway, the comparison with Scizor was just to show that centralization is not always a clue of the uber status of a given Pokemon, there's no need to point out that dragon>steel.
Obviously, I am entirely aware of the subjectivity of what is being said. It wasn't even an argument, that first paragraph was more a clarification of why so many people are acting and posting as they are. The thing is, though, lots of the voters were satisfied with the metagame; that isn't to say that others who are not voters are. The point was more philosophical than argumentative, which is how you seem to have taken it. Anyways, who knows how it'll go this time, but I predict Latias to stay OU and Manaphy to stay Uber. (I feel they're both clearly Uber, but 'cest la vie)Haunter said:
I was talking about Manaphy, not Latias! Jeez! (Granted Blissey does still scare off Manaphy too) See the following quote:Haunter said:
Rising_Dusk said:
Scizor is still, and always will be, mostly predictable. Early game it will U-turn, sure, and you can tank those hits and prepare for it later. When it comes in later on Salamence or something where you're mostly sure it will BP, you can handle it very appropriately. Furthermore, the Metagame does not have to adjust too terribly much to deal with Scizor. Sure, HPFire appears on a few more Pokemon now than before, but it isn't only useful versus Scizor. Furthermore, most of the already-OU Pokemon at the time could handle the individual attacks of Scizor well enough.Haunter said:
If you want to get technical, dozens of Pokemon "make it substantially easier for other Pokemon to sweep." For instance, Magnezone simply drops many of Salamence' threats. Magnezone clearly isn't uber, though, and that is because it is checked and beaten reliably by numerous Pokemon in OU and doesn't require new Pokemon to come up from lower tiers to handle it - making it substantially easier for other Pokemon to sweep at the teambuilding stage. (This is what Manaphy does)
Scizor's predictability can be resisted and dealt with on numerous levels, however. Scizor doesn't even get close to perfect coverage with Bullet Punch and U-turn, and won't be Superpowering on the early stages of a battle before scouting. Heck, Skarmory alone walls anything Scizor can do (although shouldn't be staying in and roosting on Superpower). Skarmory may not even be your counter to Scizor, it can be just a happy check to shut it up for awhile as it runs away to something that can beat Skarm. That's just an example; there are lots more.Haunter said:
Let's face the music here. Lots of Pokemon have the raw strength and potency to be Uber. The reason they are not Uber is because of two things:
- The metagame can adapt to defeat them without leaving it wide open to a dozen other threats.
- There exist numerous checks and/or counters to them in the metagame that can reliably beat the given Pokemon while still being useful to a team and against other Pokemon.
Also, don't get me wrong, I think Salamence is a lot more Uber than Latias is. Still, though, Mence' strength has no bearing on Latias', and Latias to me is clearly Uber. There exist very few checks, virtually all of which you listed, and all of those checks hate Trick. Sure, once that's gone, she won't be opening many holes in a team - but even an unboosted Draco Meteor hurts enough to not be neglected. Ignoring Trick, two of those checks are steel and two are normal, leaving them susceptible to other means. (Much like how Manaphy's checks are dealt with)
Fair enough. Dragon-type is a big part of the problem, but it's still a problem that must be dealt with nonetheless.Haunter said:
Eh, I remember this argument being risen a while ago, and someone (Jumpman16 if I recall correctly - if I don't, then sorry Jump) shut it down saying that they could have just played the ladder and qualified to vote. Basically, if one doesn't bother about qualifying for voting, then he has no right to complain about a decision taken by people who did.
Oh, ok. But I've already disagreed with that before in this thread, so the point stands for Manaphy as well, though its counters are not Metagross and Jirachi.
In fact, that's my exact point. Other Pokemon come close to some uber characteristics, Scizor included, but they don't fully fullfill any of them. In the same way that Magnezone or Scizor can support other Pokemon to sweep, Latias and Salamence (and Dragonite to an extent) can open holes into teams for other Pokemon to sweep, but they can be reliably beaten by other Pokemon (well, not exactly reliably in the case of Salamence) and thus they're not ubers (if anything, I'd be way more inclined to test\ban Salamence rather than Latias).
Scizor's predictability comes from the fact that CB is the most used Scizor set, but just to use your own example, Skarmory is beaten by SD Scizor and Gliscor must be at full health to avoid the KO from a +2 BP.
I agree, but I don't see how having something like scarf-TTar or Scizor or Snorlax or Blissey on your team can make it "wide open to a dozen other threats".
Yes, it's all about finding a counters list for a given threat. Using your same argument I might say that having to pack Gliscor or Hippowdon to counter Lucario may make my team weak to Suicune or Gyarados. On the other hand, following my argument, I could just say that Latias is not uber because if you have TTar, Scizor, Blissey, Snorlax, Jirachi, Metagross on your team you can confortably deal with her.
Eh, if anything I agree with you that Salamence is more threatening than Latias. And no, an unboosted DM simply lacks the power to wreck things, lots of Pokemon can survive it and if they have a recovery move they can simply force Latias out (Celebi, Vaporeon, Zapdos are all fine examples), not to mention that without the specs boost TTar and Scizor can switch into Latias almost with impunity.
Banning Latias is not the way to deal with it, in my opinion at least.
Yeah I've said that before and it still stands. The voters are representative of the proactive, dedicated, eager part of our community, which is what everyone should want deciding our tiers.
To be fair, you wouldn't say this, because this "team" is 6-0ed by Infernape every time and Lucario a lot even if Jirachi/Metagross do have Scarves. Such an argument would never get by Aeolus and myself, so we don't have to worry about ill-conceived devil's advocates impacting the tiers.
re jumpman: i think haunter meant if you had one of the pokes on your team, not a team of all of them
re: the whole argument that all of manaphy's checks/counters are countered by scartar- how is this not also the case for suicune? i haven't been able to play this test much, but reading the args abt manaphy, I fail to see how he's better than cune or really even much different. just to give a sense, while I'm aware the manaphy's rain/rest sets (both crophy and dual-attack sets) can heal 100% in 1 turn, I think people arguing that this make manaphy uber (while cune isn't uber because he relies on sleeptalk) are ignoring an important advantages that sleep talk-rest cune has over manaphy, which include not only pressure and slightly better defensive stats (manaphy's better speed hardly helps it on defensive sets) but the fact that cune can sleep without any set up. starting rain dance is essentially an extra turn of set up you need to take before using rest in order for manaphy to work, and I recall in previous suspect tests that this difference can be really annoying. with cune you can come in, take damage, rest next turn and start setting up while asleep. Defensive Manaphy cannot come in on a hight powered damage dealing moving nearly as easily as cune because she needs an extra turn BEFORE using rest to set up.
edit: just to clarify: cune can come in on moves that 3hko him much more easily than defensive manaphy
just my 2 cents abt manaphy
re: the whole argument that all of manaphy's checks/counters are countered by scartar- how is this not also the case for suicune? i haven't been able to play this test much, but reading the args abt manaphy, I fail to see how he's better than cune or really even much different. just to give a sense, while I'm aware the manaphy's rain/rest sets (both crophy and dual-attack sets) can heal 100% in 1 turn, I think people arguing that this make manaphy uber (while cune isn't uber because he relies on sleeptalk) are ignoring an important advantages that sleep talk-rest cune has over manaphy, which include not only pressure and slightly better defensive stats (manaphy's better speed hardly helps it on defensive sets) but the fact that cune can sleep without any set up. starting rain dance is essentially an extra turn of set up you need to take before using rest in order for manaphy to work, and I recall in previous suspect tests that this difference can be really annoying. with cune you can come in, take damage, rest next turn and start setting up while asleep. Defensive Manaphy cannot come in on a hight powered damage dealing moving nearly as easily as cune because she needs an extra turn BEFORE using rest to set up.
edit: just to clarify: cune can come in on moves that 3hko him much more easily than defensive manaphy
just my 2 cents abt manaphy
That's exactly what I did. I doubt my vote will really make a difference, but maybe a lot of people like me could.Haunter said:
Just one of them that can be dealt with by others on your opponent's team isn't enough. 2 or 3, now you're able to reliably beat Latias. 2 or 3 of them, though, definitely sets you up for weaknesses and holes to other Pokemon. That, to me, is part of what makes Latias Uber. (Similarly, this is part of what makes Mence uber as well)Haunter said:
Sure, surprising lesser-used sets can definitely take the upper hand at times. I hate it when I switch a Gliscor in on a Specs HPIce from Lucario. When discussing the potency of a Pokemon, though, their most prolific and most effective sets (CBScizor and SDLuke definitely are using those two examples) are the ones that should be used strictly for discussion purposes.Haunter said:
It doesn't seem to be getting anywhere for us to go back and forth on this (although I do like a good discussion here and again), so maybe we can just agree to disagree here. There are viable points on both sides, I'll accept that, and Latias is definitely the most borderline case of all of the suspects.Haunter said:
10 lower base Special Attack, no +2 SpA boosting ability, 15 lower base Speed. Big difference. Suicune even with Manaphy's ability would not be Uber.orkid said:
re: 10 lower base Special Attack, no +2 SpA boosting ability, 15 lower base Speed. Big difference. Suicune even with Manaphy's ability would not be Uber.
1. i was speaking abt defensive sets in particular
2. 10 base dif in sp atk doesn't get manaphy any extra kills over cune, its only (arguably) tail glow that makes manaphy hit hard enough to be uber
3. tail glow (or swords dance) doesn't make a pokemon uber either, esp when its speed lets it be revenged easily. 100 base defensive stats are good, but on offensive manaphy sets w/o investment they aren't anything like impenetrable
3. on defensive sets the 100 base speed dif doesn't let manaphy outspeed any threats suicune can't that matter at all (you're still getting outsped by lucario for ex.) on offensive sets it matters because of some speed ties, yes, but not enough to make manaphy uber, imho, its not a 'big difference'
4. suicune's ability is arguably better than manaphys on balance, its certainly better on defensive sets.
1. i was speaking abt defensive sets in particular
2. 10 base dif in sp atk doesn't get manaphy any extra kills over cune, its only (arguably) tail glow that makes manaphy hit hard enough to be uber
3. tail glow (or swords dance) doesn't make a pokemon uber either, esp when its speed lets it be revenged easily. 100 base defensive stats are good, but on offensive manaphy sets w/o investment they aren't anything like impenetrable
3. on defensive sets the 100 base speed dif doesn't let manaphy outspeed any threats suicune can't that matter at all (you're still getting outsped by lucario for ex.) on offensive sets it matters because of some speed ties, yes, but not enough to make manaphy uber, imho, its not a 'big difference'
4. suicune's ability is arguably better than manaphys on balance, its certainly better on defensive sets.
You don't need 2 or 3 of them on your team as long as your team isn't really weak to Latias, which basically means that a good enough team builder doesn't need to use more than one specific counter for her.
According to the most recent server stats SD on Scizor is used 37% of the time, which is pretty high if you ask me. Once again, Scizor was just an example and I don't want to go off-topic, so I'm not going to further elaborate on this point.
But yeah, you're right when you say that an argument can be made in both ways when it comes about banning dragon Pokemon. I just wanted to make clear that the problem isn't Latias being overpowered, but just dragon types in general.
Surf alone doesn't have the coverage necessary to take on some of its counters and CM doesn't have the immediate power of Tail Glow. If Latias, Suicune, or anything with Water Absorb sets up to the plate, it's forced out. You're better off getting a support Pokemon to set up rain for you.
That's kind of the thing, though. Without at least 1 of the Pokemon in your team, your team is weak to Latias. With only one, you run a very serious risk of letting it smash you. I took advantage of a lot of people in the Suspect test that just used ScarfTar as their only check.Haunter said:
I don't quite agree. Flygon, for instance, is definitely not Uber, nor is Kingdra. It is more because of their stats being 'average' that results in this. Latias stats are pretty great, so I think the combination of the power of Dragons combined with her stats and movepool that puts her in particular over the edge. (Along with Mence and Chomp and Latios, etc.)Haunter said:
Defensive sets are not the ones Manaphy is a suspect for.orkid said:
It adds up after a Tail Glow.orkid said:
Move pool definitely contributes to a Pokemon's overall power. The availability of Tail Glow to Manaphy is the primary thing that mainly distributes her from every other 100-in-all-stat legendary in Pokemon.orkid said:
Stop talking about defensive sets, man. She's not going uber on the defensive characteristic anytime soon, especially since in terms of raw defenses, you're right, Suicune is better.orkid said:
I reiterate, Manaphy's suspect sets are not defensive sets. Pressure is indeed a better (and more reliable) ability on defensive sets or those designed to take multiple hits.orkid said: