np: Stage 3-4 - Wait why is this so familiar didn't I just go through this what did I

[Pride]

You are missing the point that Latias is able to come into those attacks and actually force out the threat. Gengar is only sneaking in its immunities (which means you have to predict getting in and we all know how unreliable that is) or you are switching in on a kill. Those cals show that latias can at least switch in and force out all of those pokemon very easily, opening the chance to do damage. Even if Latias switches in 2-5 times a game it has probably ripped a huge hole in the opposing team.

As for my comparison to Gengar, I'm comparing mostly offense, and I'll tell you right now it's defense is frail.

You are making the comparison that Gengar is (nearly) the same threat as gengar but then you refute it by saying that you are only comparing the offensive proportion of it. I'm sure almost all of us would agree that gengar is not the same threat as latias. you have to take the pokemon as a whole to have a valid comparison, so yes you have to take all aspects of the pokemon, including Latias having much better defenses which allow it to switch in and not die. Gengar switching in on an attack is usually death or losing 60% of its health. In all honesty, if latias is only getting two attacks in then dying, then you are not playing very good opponents. Latias should really only die to a pursuiter that gets in on a draco meteor or trick.

And what happens if they use -gasp- prediction? If it's so easy for you guys to assume Latias can predict around Blissey and friends, why can't it be just as easy for the opponent to predict Latias?

Latias really doesn't have to predict. All you really need to do it lead off with surf to scout the switch, and from sr and surf then they are probably in range for draco meteor the next turn they try to switch in anyways.

 

[shrang]

Specs Latias shouldn't be compared to Gengar, IMO. Specs Latias is not a sweeper, while Gengar easily be made into one.

Latias really doesn't have to predict. All you really need to do it lead off with surf to scout the switch, and from sr and surf then they are probably in range for draco meteor the next turn they try to switch in anyways.

Don't give me that. To use anything well, you need to predict (Unless you're using U-Turning Scizor on something that doesn't threaten you). In this suspect metagame, blindly spamming Surf is almost as silly as spamming Draco Meteor. What if you lead off with Surf, and someone using Phil's Manaphy comes in instead and Calm Mind/Rain Dance's your face in (Yes, I have said that set isn't broken, but it can still be a threat). What if your opponent switches in Empoleon and Agility's up?? Specs Latias requires good prediction, and if you make a bad one, she can easily become a liability to your team. Spamming Draco Meteor?? Fine, kill one of my less significant members while I set up SD Lucario, SD Scizor, Agiligross, Empoleon or DD Tyranitar (Whom all bones Latias when she comes back in). Surf? Bulky Manaphy, Empoleon, Suicune won't mind, and you get the drift. Trick isn't exactly reliable, like people have said earlier in the thread, Tricking a Choiced TTar or Scizor means a dead Latias (And it's not uncommon for people to team ScarfTar with Blissey on a stall team). So, while Specs Latias is sort of borderline fitting the Support Characteristic because she can poke a few holes for you to later exploit (Allowing another sweeper to sweep), she can also become set-up fodder herself (Allowing an opponent's sweeper to sweep her own teammates).

Anyway, about the voting and stuff, do we have to submit paragraphs again?? I mean, the test is pretty much exactly the same as the last one, so if we have to submit paragraphs, can I just submit mine from Stage 3-3??

 

[PK Gaming]

I disagree with the notion that Scizor did not make a great impact on the metagame.

It's STAB priority move sealed a lot of fates for frail sweepers. (Weavile, using Aero as a sweeper, etc)

Scizor impact on the metagame was somewhat big (but for overall good. Imo checking mence, and Pursuiting Latias is just to good)

 

[Stylish Interval]

You are missing the point that Latias is able to come into those attacks and actually force out the threat. Gengar is only sneaking in its immunities (which means you have to predict getting in and we all know how unreliable that is) or you are switching in on a kill. Those cals show that latias can at least switch in and force out all of those pokemon very easily, opening the chance to do damage. Even if Latias switches in 2-5 times a game it has probably ripped a huge hole in the opposing team.

You are making the comparison that Gengar is (nearly) the same threat as gengar but then you refute it by saying that you are only comparing the offensive proportion of it. I'm sure almost all of us would agree that gengar is not the same threat as latias. you have to take the pokemon as a whole to have a valid comparison, so yes you have to take all aspects of the pokemon, including Latias having much better defenses which allow it to switch in and not die. Gengar switching in on an attack is usually death or losing 60% of its health. In all honesty, if latias is only getting two attacks in then dying, then you are not playing very good opponents. Latias should really only die to a pursuiter that gets in on a draco meteor or trick.

I'm going on the assumption you meant to say Latias the second time you said Gengar. I understand Latias is able to come in on those attacks and force the threat out. But what you are not understanding is that Latias is not coming in on those attacks as many times as most of you seem to think.

For example, Scarf Heatran was doing 27%(can do more but i like median numbers). So with SR you had taken 39%. So Heatran goes away and then Latias switches out after doing something. Heatran finds its way back in and uses the same move. You take another 39% . So you're at 78%. You can now be KOd by it after switching in. This still is not factoring in the probably active sand from Tyranitar.

Infernape hits you with Close Combat and does ~36% (can roll more, but this is better I like median numbers.). With SR thats 48%. This example will not KO you, but if Sand is active it will. My point is that when using Specs Latias, I've only been able to switch into defensive Pokemon or an earthquake if I wanted it to have more switch-ins. So yes, Latias is not only going to die to Pursuit or Trick. You already can't switch in on a ton of Pokemon, and the non-defensive ones that have been mentioned are still able to give it limited switch ins.

I am still in my opinion that comparing Gengar and Latias is valid. The main reason is that once Gengar gets in it's going to do the same thing this Latias is doing. Who cares if Latias comes in a turn earlier because it could switch in? Gengar will be blowing holes of the same proportion. But I guess I'll lay off the example since Defense apparently matters so much.

 

[DJXO9]

I'm going on the assumption you meant to say Latias the second time you said Gengar. I understand Latias is able to come in on those attacks and force the threat out. But what you are not understanding is that Latias is not coming in on those attacks as many times as most of you seem to think.

For example, Scarf Heatran was doing 27%(can do more but i like median numbers). So with SR you had taken 39%. So Heatran goes away and then Latias switches out after doing something. Heatran finds its way back in and uses the same move. You take another 39% . So you're at 78%. You can now be KOd by it after switching in. This still is not factoring in the probably active sand from Tyranitar.

Infernape hits you with Close Combat and does ~36% (can roll more, but this is better I like median numbers.). With SR thats 48%. This example will not KO you, but if Sand is active it will. My point is that when using Specs Latias, I've only been able to switch into defensive Pokemon or an earthquake if I wanted it to have more switch-ins. So yes, Latias is not only going to die to Pursuit or Trick. You already can't switch in on a ton of Pokemon, and the non-defensive ones that have been mentioned are still able to give it limited switch ins.

I am still in my opinion that comparing Gengar and Latias is valid. The main reason is that once Gengar gets in it's going to do the same thing this Latias is doing. Who cares if Latias comes in a turn earlier because it could switch in? Gengar will be blowing holes of the same proportion. But I guess I'll lay off the example since Defense apparently matters so much.

The point is, is that Latias can come in on those. Gengar absolutely cannot. You mentioned ScarfTran's Fireblast on Latias. Gengar takes 95.4% - 112.6% from Fireblast, an easy OHKO with SR. Latias does not need to come in more then 2 times really. The first time, you lead with Surf to get its counters down. The next time it comes in, go ahead and launch a Draco Meteor or a Dragon Pulse if its late game.

I agree with you that Gengar is a very powerful sweeper, and that the 2 are mildly comparable in terms of pure offensive power. Think about what Gengar would be like though if instead of having 60 / 60 / 75 defenses, it had 80 / 90 / 130, like Latias. That is a HUGE difference. Sure they have close to the same offensive power, but the ability to take a hit makes all the difference.

 

[Alan]

For example, Scarf Heatran was doing 27%(can do more but i like median numbers). So with SR you had taken 39%. So Heatran goes away and then Latias switches out after doing something. Heatran finds its way back in and uses the same move. You take another 39% . So you're at 78%. You can now be KOd by it after switching in. This still is not factoring in the probably active sand from Tyranitar.

Infernape hits you with Close Combat and does ~36% (can roll more, but this is better I like median numbers.). With SR thats 48%. This example will not KO you, but if Sand is active it will. My point is that when using Specs Latias, I've only been able to switch into defensive Pokemon or an earthquake if I wanted it to have more switch-ins. So yes, Latias is not only going to die to Pursuit or Trick. You already can't switch in on a ton of Pokemon, and the non-defensive ones that have been mentioned are still able to give it limited switch ins.

Who in the blue hell sends in a scarf'd 'mon to counter incoming attacks? thats like sending in Weavile to take an obvious Ice Beam. Its a dumb idea. Are you going to trick them for their choice item? Are you gonna get their life orb? Besides, even if someone was to do that, simple Wish Support helps to make it survive longer and I think you severely overestimate the effect of Sandstorm.

But I guess I'll lay off the example since Defense apparently matters so much.

...Obviously defense is important, especially in the current metagame. Why do you think that crap like Zam, P-Z, and other frail shit got dropped down? Because "oh noes a scarfed mon" destroys them with a Tackle. [/reckless exaggeration]. Why do you think "Bulky Offense" and "Spike Stacking Offense" and "Semi/Heavy Stall" are the most common play types? Oh yeah, because "Heavy Offense/Hyper Offense" centered around an ass ton of (mostly) frail sweepers that got laughed at by prediction and scarfed pokemon that made them null and void.

Latias really doesn't have to predict. All you really need to do it lead off with surf to scout the switch, and from sr and surf then they are probably in range for draco meteor the next turn they try to switch in anyways.

Specs Latias shouldn't be compared to Gengar, IMO. Specs Latias is not a sweeper, while Gengar easily be made into one.

Nice Pursuit baits you got there.

*Also, Specs Latias could easily sweep. Base 110 Sp.A. and Surf which hits everything but Vaporeon says "hi" to most of the metagame. But I get what your saying in that its mostly used to trick an then play support roles.

 

[Stylish Interval]

The point is, is that Latias can come in on those. Gengar absolutely cannot. You mentioned ScarfTran's Fireblast on Latias. Gengar takes 95.4% - 112.6% from Fireblast, an easy OHKO with SR. Latias does not need to come in more then 2 times really. The first time, you lead with Surf to get its counters down. The next time it comes in, go ahead and launch a Draco Meteor or a Dragon Pulse if its late game.

Alright. I guess Latias can come in on those. I still think that's a dumb way to decide how powerful something is, especially if it really is limited to few switch-ins, but oh well. I still have two problems.

1) No matter what move you use you have the possibility to be set up on or forced out, and the possibility to be limited to one kill.

2) I can think of other Specs Users that can come in twice and fire off powerful moves so why would Latias be banned for something other Pokemon can do?


Edit to the above user: I recommend reading up in the debate or argument. Obviously we were discussing switching in Latias on those Pokemon, which is why I showed that it's getting two switch ins if it keeps switching in on them. The discussion was not "Let's switch Scarf Heatran into Latias because it so obviously can kill it" or something. I was showing how Latias takes large chunks of damage and can be KOd by Scarf Heatran if it switches in on it a second time.

As for why Zam and friends got dropped down, poor STAB, I would say. Not to mention PZ had to run scarf to do anything, too slow to attack after boosting because of lack of priority. Gengar is more frail than PZ but it is still OU by miles. It has better STAB. Infernape is very frail but it has great STAB. Salamence loses half of it's HP by switching into a Vaporeon's surf and taking SR.That's pretty frail if you ask me. That's why I think Defense is hardly important when comparing offensive Pokemon.

And also, the only thing I said about sandstorm was it was taking 6% off of Latias. I'm pretty sure that isn't overestimating the effect, that's naming the effect.

 

[Bologo]

To add to Stylish Interval's point about Latias not being able to switch in repeatedly on resisted attacks such as Heatran Fire Blast, Latias is obviously using Choice Specs as its main set now. If this is the case, once the opponent sees Latias on the opposing team, like I said earlier in the thread, the opponent is not going to be spamming Earthquake, Surf, Psychic, etc like there's no tomorrow. They're obviously going to be cautious, and try to predict Latias coming in. While yes, Latias may hurt one thing with Draco Meteor as a result of this (though it's not a guaranteed kill), it's not going to be coming in without a fight next time. This is how we deal with a lot of strong choice users.

Just to give an example, let's look at CB Scizor. Many of the pokemon who use HP Fire to OHKO him will be "severely dented" by a U-turn or Bullet Punch, or be chased down by Pursuit off of 130 base Attack (Ie. Gengar without Protect) if they predict wrong. Once you see CB Scizor come in for that first time, are you going to keep using the same strategy with that pokemon, or are you going to start to predict its switch-in with HP Fire?

 

[broodjekebab]

2) I can think of other Specs Users that can come in twice and fire off powerful moves so why would Latias be banned for something other Pokemon can do?


As for why Zam and friends got dropped down, poor STAB, I would say. Not to mention PZ had to run scarf to do anything, too slow to attack after boosting because of lack of priority. Gengar is more frail than PZ but it is still OU by miles. It has better STAB. Infernape is very frail but it has great STAB. Salamence loses half of it's HP by switching into a Vaporeon's surf and taking SR.That's pretty frail if you ask me. That's why I think Defense is hardly important when comparing offensive Pokemon.

Besides, it's hardly fair to compare Gengar to Infernape/Salamence in order to support your claim that a sweeper's defense is insignificant.
Infernape and Salamence fill different niches (read:mixed wallbreakers/set-up sweepers).

Bulk increases the probability that a given sweeper is able to come in multiple times to perform it's sweeping roles. Even it that means it can come in twice instead of once (ie. the ScarfTran example), it means it might potentially deal twice as much damage.
On top of that, bulk increases the amount of roles a pokemon can fulfill. Can Gengar 'counter' any pokemon at all? Can SpecsLatias counter Infernape, Heatran, etc.? Yes it can, even if it means it takes a decent amount of damage. Most pokemon in DPPt can deal quite a bit of damage even to their counters, for example....SpecsLatias 2HKOing ScarfTTar with surf.

In general I agree with Stylish Interval on Latias not being overpowering enough to be considered Uber, but I simply wanted to address some of the issues in his arguments which didn't appear logical/right to me.

 

[Stylish Interval]

Well, I guess I can't argue this point forever. I'll just have to give in, but I wouldn't say it counters these Pokemon since it can't come in twice on it, for the most part. It's a gamble to come in on quite a few Pokemon a Defensive Latias with recovery can come in on, which is why I still think it's ridiculous to say it can come in and out, which is what a lot of people seem hung up on saying. I suppose the bulk it has helps it get in, but if it can only use it's bulk once, it doesn't make a difference to me. Plenty of Pokemon can come in once or twice and get a kill, so Latias isn't any different in my opinion.

Anyway, I wrote this thing up because it's a snow day, I'm bored, and I also would like to share with you why I think Latias isn't that powerful in comparison to other Choice Specs Pokemon. It's a bit long, but I've had like two hours to think about it.

My conclusion is that with Choice Specs users being so rare, no one is used to playing with these kinds of Pokemon. Since Latias is so common, though, you see it more and you feel like it's way over powered, even though it's power is similar to other Choice Users. So of course, over reaction is the key here, which is why you guys want it to be Uber. But really, it's not that much stronger than these Pokemon, especially in the metagame we play in today. I've just about made myself want to build a team with one of these guys just to see how unprepared people are for them.

My Long Post

Choice Item Pokemon are Pokemon that are not meant to sweep, but to punish switch-ins or dent the opponent’s team as hard as it can (or revenge, in Scarfs case). So when considering Choice Specs Latias, we should not look at it as a sweeper, but instead look at it as a Pokemon looking to solely damage the other team.

What I mean by “not meant to sweep”, is that you don’t put them on your team to run through the opponent’s team with ease. Instead, you put them on your team to open up your opponents’ team so another Pokemon can take advantage of the situation and set up itself for a sweep. This is why I think Speed is irrelevant when considering the power of Choice Specs Latias. So what it can outspeed these Pokemon? It’s not a Choiced Pokemon’s job to outspeed Pokemon. Sure it’s helpful, but it isn’t necessary at all to get a kill, two, or dent the opponents team like it’s supposed to do.

For example, there is Choice Specs Kingdra. It can really punish switch-ins. Aside from Empoleon, it’s really a guessing game as to what to switch-in if you lack a Blissey (or Shedinja). If you send in your Steel-type predicting a Draco Meteor, you might meet Hydro Pump or Surf. If you send in your Water-type expecting a Hydro Pump, you might meet Draco Meteor or Dragon Pulse. Kingdra can 2HKO Vaporeon or Suicune with Draco Meteor, and sometimes with Dragon Pulse. Kingdra can do ~64% to Metagross (252/0) with Surf, and do ~85% to an 80/0 Jirachi. With Hydro Pump it nearly KOs Metagross and KOs Jirachi. These are high tolls to pay for a switch-in to Kingdra. And it can find it's way in easily enough. It resists Bullet Punch, Fire attacks, and water attacks. In fact, your Choice Specs Latias is only doing 14% max to it with Surf (the "scouting attack"), meaning it can find its way in and damage whatever else comes in.

Another example is Heatran. Heatran has 10 resistances and 2 immunities, meaning it can find its way in easily enough. Without healing with Leftovers, it scares things because people are used to Choice Scarf Heatran. With Choice Specs Fire Blast it can do 50% to Specs Latias. Other checks / counters include Vaporeon and Suicune, who take ~40% and ~38%, respectively. This thing is a monster. What else can switch in on a Choice Specs Fire Blast? Bulky Gyarados takes ~47% from Fire Blast, meaning it has lost all but 30% of its HP after switching in. Mixpert is taking ~47% as well. Usually built as a lead, it’s possible that Heatran could KO it if it’s taken enough prior damage. So without a Snorlax, Heatran, or Blissey, your switch in is going to be taking a large toll for switching in. I’d say this thing is going to net a kill or two. Imagine if it had a Flash Fire boost; all but Latias of those Pokemon could be run through by one attack from Heatran.

Jolteon is yet another one. Uncommon but powerful with just Thunderbolt, it can do 32% to Choice Specs Latias. 252/0 Rotom-A meets ~44%, meaning a possible KO. 80/0 Jirachi takes 67%. 252/0 Metagross takes about the same. Magnezone takes ~50%, and it can’t do anything back unless it explodes. Jolteon can also do ~45% to Scarf Tyranitar, and outspeeds it meaning if it has taken just a little bit of damage, Jolteon can follow up and KO. Jolteon outspeeds nearly everything in the metagame as well, so once it gets in it’s going to do some damage. Without a Swampert, Gliscor, or Blissey, you’re going to lose at least one Pokemon, if not more, since these Pokemon mostly can't switch in. Of course you could say it doesn’t get to switch in like Latias does, but who cares? It’s still nearly guaranteed a kill per game once it comes in.

All of these Choice Users are going to do this kind of damage in every game. Latias is no different from any of these; once they get in they will either kill something or do major damage to something (and possibly go out and come back in). Heatran possibly has more chances than Latias to get in and attack. And not every team has a Blissey or Snorlax or Swampert or Heatran, so the main way to deal with these is caution, prediction, and revenge killing. This is not unlike the way we deal with Specs Latias. It’s done with caution, and it’s something you have to think about when dealing with any Choiced Pokemon. And while you may say Latias has it easy because of Trick and it can beat Blissey, once it Tricks it’s Specs over to Blissey (or something else), it loses power, which can make it easier for something like CMRachi or Empoleon to come in on it, or Vaporeon or Suicune or even Manaphy (in the suspect metagame, anyway).

 

[Bologo]

To give more comparisons of Latias to other Choice users in OU, I compiled my own list. Though it has some pokemon that Stylish Interval had, mine has some others that weren't mentioned.

Because people seem to feel that Latias is a threatening Choice user, because of its high defenses to come in over and over, and its STAB which is resisted by few, I've decided to compile a list of pokemon, which overall, can do the same thing (I'm only listing Choice users whose STAB combos have no immunities). This is in no particular order:

Kingdra - Has the Dragon STAB plus Water STAB which is not resisted besides Empoleon in OU. 75/95/95 defenses along with 2 4x resistances and a Bullet Punch resistance, and only 1 weakness let it come in several times during the match to fire off a Specs Meteor or Hydro Pump.

Kangaskhan - Though it is not OU, its Choice Band set has very few switch-ins. 105/80/80 defenses and an immunity to Ghost with 1 weakness let it come in several times during the match, and fire off Returns/Double-Edges, which are only resisted by Rocks and Steels due to Scrappy. Both Rocks and Steels are killed easily by Hammer Arm/Earthquake. There are only 2 Rock types in OU, so Steel types are essentially the only ones coming in on its attacks.

Tyranitar - Dark STAB is resisted by few types, only Fighting, Steel, and Dark to be exact. There are a total of 4 Fighters in OU, and 2 Darks, meaning that Steels are going to be the only big problem. All resisted types take one hell of a wallop from Superpower or Earthquake. Rock STAB along with the previously mentioned moves make Tyranitar's moveset unresisted. Tyranitar can come in several times during the match with 100/110/100 Defenses, with Special Defense boosted by Sandstorm + several resistances, and severely dent many switch-ins, or get rid of Psychic/Ghost types with ease using Pursuit.

Scizor - This should be self-explanatory for anyone who's played OU for the past few months, but it should be known that Scizor can come in on one of the bajillion attacks it resists with respectable 70/80/100 defenses, and throw out a U-turn, severely denting the switch-in, and scouting them at the same time. All Steel-typed switch-ins are OHKOed, if not, 2HKOed by Superpower, including Skarmory who isn't even weak against it.

Shaymin - With Specs, Seed Flare is OHKOing and 2HKOing much of the metagame. While Seed Flare is resisted by a lot, the opponent has a 40% chance of losing that resistance, and Earth Power easily takes care of the Steels that come in to wall it, with HP Fire wrecking Skarmory, or if it's HP Ice, Salamence. 100/100/100 Defenses are great, especially with Natural Cure to get rid of any attempts of status it.

Salamence - With any Choice item, Salamence can come in and easily dent something with Dragon STAB, and its coverage is unresisted with any of those Choice sets. 95/80/80 defenses can easily make this happen, especially with a long list of resistances.

Yanmega - Obviously Stealth Rock is a big inconvenience to him, but if Stealth Rock does not get put up or is spun away, it suddenly becomes very difficult to deal with Yanmega outside of Blissey if its ability is Tinted Lens and is carrying a Choice Specs. His STAB moves as a combo are literally unresisted; with Blissey being one of the few to avoid a 2HKO, you can be sure that this thing will come in and repeatedly break walls. 86/86/56 defenses, while giving a poor Special Defense, is slightly compensated for by his resistances - 4x Grass, 4x Fighting, Ground immunity, and 2x Bug, all types with common attacks in the metagame.

Rotom-A - While Ghost/Electric does have immunities separately, its STABs put together are almost unresisted. Like Latias, it can Trick off its Choice item to take out Blissey, and it can fire off very powerful Thunderbolts and Shadow Balls from 105 base Special Attack. Its defensive prowess should be self-explanatory, with a large list of resistances/immunities, and respectable 50/107/107 defenses. Also, like Latias, it has moves that can bring down its arch-nemesis, Tyranitar, even with a Choice set. Rotom-W 2HKOs with Hydro Pump, and Rotom-C can 2HKO with Leaf Storm, meaning that Tyranitar isn't even a true counter.

These are just some that I can think of off the top of my head, and I'm sure that I've forgot some. But, my point is that there are several Choice users that can do what Latias can do. These pokemon can all come in and take a couple of hits with their defenses, and give any switch-in quite a denting, even with just their STABs alone, and in Rotom-A's case, it can even Trick walls. Therefore, while Latias may have a strong Draco Meteor with beefy defenses, she still is not anything special when compared alongside other strong Choicers.

I'd actually agree with Stylish Interval that Heatran can dent stuff even more than Latias can due to the large amount of resistances and a 120 base power STAB that can even wreck things that resist it.

 

[twash]

I really "dislike" posting in threads like this because people tend to have a fixed opinion, but after seeing the last few posts I may as well comment and attempt to influence people.

Don't give me that. To use anything well, you need to predict (Unless you're using U-Turning Scizor on something that doesn't threaten you). In this suspect metagame, blindly spamming Surf is almost as silly as spamming Draco Meteor. What if you lead off with Surf, and someone using Phil's Manaphy comes in instead and Calm Mind/Rain Dance's your face in (Yes, I have said that set isn't broken, but it can still be a threat). What if your opponent switches in Empoleon and Agility's up?? Specs Latias requires good prediction, and if you make a bad one, she can easily become a liability to your team. Spamming Draco Meteor?? Fine, kill one of my less significant members while I set up SD Lucario, SD Scizor, Agiligross, Empoleon or DD Tyranitar (Whom all bones Latias when she comes back in). Surf? Bulky Manaphy, Empoleon, Suicune won't mind, and you get the drift. Trick isn't exactly reliable, like people have said earlier in the thread, Tricking a Choiced TTar or Scizor means a dead Latias (And it's not uncommon for people to team ScarfTar with Blissey on a stall team). So, while Specs Latias is sort of borderline fitting the Support Characteristic because she can poke a few holes for you to later exploit (Allowing another sweeper to sweep), she can also become set-up fodder herself (Allowing an opponent's sweeper to sweep her own teammates).

Anyway, about the voting and stuff, do we have to submit paragraphs again?? I mean, the test is pretty much exactly the same as the last one, so if we have to submit paragraphs, can I just submit mine from Stage 3-3??

It depends what you class as prediction—is using Surf to scout really prediction? Personally, I wouldn't classify it as prediction at all. I would say it is say it is more or less taking advantage of the likelyhood that the opponent has a Tyranitar/Scizor to deal with Latias (which is pretty likely). I don't see how the Manaphy example really proves anything. The difference between Draco Meteor and Surf is that if you Draco Meteor a Tyranitar/Scizor, you are almost certainly going to die to Pursuit. If you Surf, you can at least switch out and keep Latias. Also, in specific response to "Spamming Draco Meteor?? Fine, kill one of my less significant members while I set up SD Lucario, SD Scizor, Agiligross, Empoleon or DD Tyranitar (Whom all bones Latias when she comes back in).", I would like to point out that Latias should never be taking on these threats anyway, so I don't see why it matters that they "bone Latias when she comes back in" when they generally do anyway. Also, I love the way you talk about killing of one of your "less significant members" before you set up. Latias can rinse and repeat thanks to high Speed, immunity to Spikes, all the standard arguments...so it makes me wonder what you think after Latias has killed off two or three of your "less significant members" with ridiculously strong hits.

I expect we will have to rewrite paragraphs again. I have no problem with that. I guess your Stage 3-4 experience has simply been the same as your Stage 3-3 experience.

For example, Scarf Heatran was doing 27%(can do more but i like median numbers). So with SR you had taken 39%. So Heatran goes away and then Latias switches out after doing something. Heatran finds its way back in and uses the same move. You take another 39% . So you're at 78%. You can now be KOd by it after switching in. This still is not factoring in the probably active sand from Tyranitar.

Why would the user switch in Latias to get KOed? That is completely silly and most competent players wouldn't do it. I like to bring Latias in on weaker and slower (not hard for her) hitters, and use her that way. Latias needs to be careful ("scout"-esque playing, I suppose) before she begins punching huge holes in the opponent's team, as she needs often "needs" to scout for Tyranitar/Scizor with Surf.. "Latias switches out after doing something"—yeah, almost unequivocally hitting something hard.

I am still in my opinion that comparing Gengar and Latias is valid. The main reason is that once Gengar gets in it's going to do the same thing this Latias is doing. Who cares if Latias comes in a turn earlier because it could switch in? Gengar will be blowing holes of the same proportion. But I guess I'll lay off the example since Defense apparently matters so much.

Gengar is nowhere near as threatening. STAB Shadow Ball is nowhere near as good at ripping holes as STAB Draco Meteor. The extra Base Power (and the fact that "it's a strong Dragon-type move") makes Latias "that" much more threatening. What do you mean if Latias comes in a turn earlier who cares? I'd say it's pretty important that Latias has a bit of defensive leeway. If you mispredict, it's likely you would still be able to play Latias cleverly later, whereas Gengar would probably be of no use.

Alright. I guess Latias can come in on those. I still think that's a dumb way to decide how powerful something is, especially if it really is limited to few switch-ins, but oh well. I still have two problems.

The ability to take an extra hit or two is pretty important in the long-run, as it means it is able to get off more of those strong hits which potentially makes it Uber instead of OU.

2) I can think of other Specs Users that can come in twice and fire off powerful moves so why would Latias be banned for something other Pokemon can do?

I would love to hear your examples here. I cannot think of any Specs sweeper who provides as much danger both immediately and in the long run as Latias. Faster Pokemon like Alakazam have hideous defenses, bad movepools, etc. Slower Pokemon like PorygonZ are a bit too slow and a bit too unreliable. It's the package as a whole that makes Latias "that" extra bit better.

To add to Stylish Interval's point about Latias not being able to switch in repeatedly on resisted attacks such as Heatran Fire Blast, Latias is obviously using Choice Specs as its main set now. If this is the case, once the opponent sees Latias on the opposing team, like I said earlier in the thread, the opponent is not going to be spamming Earthquake, Surf, Psychic, etc like there's no tomorrow. They're obviously going to be cautious, and try to predict Latias coming in. While yes, Latias may hurt one thing with Draco Meteor as a result of this (though it's not a guaranteed kill), it's not going to be coming in without a fight next time. This is how we deal with a lot of strong choice users.

Life Orb is still pretty awesome, as a side note. I voted Latias Uber in Stage 3-3 because of the Life Orb set (I never used the Specs set in 3-3).

The fact that Latias can come in once or twice and immediately weaken the opposing team severely (it's very likely you're hurting something with Draco Meteor, not "maybe" or something along those lines) means that holes are opened up incredibly swiftly.

Things will be cautious and predict Latias coming in, yes. You make it sound like you are having to predict it coming in to deal with it, which I am almost certain isn't your point? Anyway, this is the same for almost any Pokemon. You see it, you should be thinking about it. You are going to have to think much harder to bring in a Pokemon second time, regardless.

---

I find it extremely hard not to take advantage of anything that Latias does. Provided the player is competent, Latias either punches ridiculously large holes in the opponent's team until it falls, or is stopped by some means of "defensive action": Blissey, or Choice Band/Scarf Pursuits are ultimately the most common and reliable. Blissey is probably the best stopper, and I am not going to go on about Trick because my argument applies to Life Orb as well. Choiced Pursuit users are much more easy to take advantage of. In Stage 3-3, my favourite was U-turn. It immediately allows me to gain momentum back, reduces prediction etc. Alternatively, you can set up Scizor/Lucario/Tyranitar/Metagross/"insert sweeper". If Latias is not Pursuited on the switch, it means that you get to punch even more holes later on, to the point where you are going to ultimately decimate their switch-ins (this is the reason why Latias is far better in comparison to other Psychics who could also lure Pursuits). Latias causes detrimental damage, either gets stopped or survives, and thus I can continue a gameplan from that point with ease. And a lot of this is from Latias' mere presence.

I never got around to rereading this post, so it probably has a few typos, errors, etc. I'll try to reply to things.

 

[Stylish Interval]

Why would the user switch in Latias to get KOed? That is completely silly and most competent players wouldn't do it. I like to bring Latias in on weaker and slower (not hard for her) hitters, and use her that way. Latias needs to be careful ("scout"-esque playing, I suppose) before she begins punching huge holes in the opponent's team, as she needs often "needs" to scout for Tyranitar/Scizor with Surf.. "Latias switches out after doing something"—yeah, almost unequivocally hitting something hard.

That's exactly the point I was trying to convey. It's not going to have the free switch ins that people are expecting it to have. After switching in once on Heatran or Infernape Latias doesn't get to switch back in for free like it was presumed in this thread prior to my post. And about hitting something hard, so what? Other choice users can hit something ridiculously hard as well. And what's the difference? I honestly don't see a difference between Specs Latias and other Choice Users (besides maybe Alakazam and PGZ or frail CB users). They all hit hard and do loads of damage to the opponents team. Doing large amounts of damage is not something that Latias alone has the ability to do.

The ability to take an extra hit or two is pretty important in the long-run, as it means it is able to get off more of those strong hits which potentially makes it Uber instead of OU.

The thing is, Latias with no investment takes a hit or two extra from weaker Pokemon. Standard Rotom-A's Thunderbolt, Swampert's, Vaporeon's, and Suicune's Surf. Other attacks do too much damage for it to come in an extra two or more times. Tyranitar can do the same thing. Snorlax can do the same thing. There are other Pokemon that can switch in with outrageous attacking stats onto these weak attacks and threaten with strong moves. But yeah, I guess Gengar just doesn't compare there (I assume you were referencing Gengar).

I would love to hear your examples here. I cannot think of any Specs sweeper who provides as much danger both immediately and in the long run as Latias. Faster Pokemon like Alakazam have hideous defenses, bad movepools, etc. Slower Pokemon like PorygonZ are a bit too slow and a bit too unreliable. It's the package as a whole that makes Latias "that" extra bit better.

I already covered this. You're thinking of Pokemon who only ran Specs or Scarf, versus the ones I listed that are uncommon but still provide the immediate damage that Latias does (or more). And I'm pretty sure the ones I listed have this "package" that you speak of. Well at least Heatran and Kingdra. Not sure about Jolteon having it. But then again I don't know what you're looking for in a package.

I find it extremely hard not to take advantage of anything that Latias does. Provided the player is competent, Latias either punches ridiculously large holes in the opponent's team until it falls, or is stopped by some means of "defensive action": Blissey, or Choice Band/Scarf Pursuits are ultimately the most common and reliable. Blissey is probably the best stopper, and I am not going to go on about Trick because my argument applies to Life Orb as well. Choiced Pursuit users are much more easy to take advantage of. In Stage 3-3, my favourite was U-turn. It immediately allows me to gain momentum back, reduces prediction etc. Alternatively, you can set up Scizor/Lucario/Tyranitar/Metagross/"insert sweeper". If Latias is not Pursuited on the switch, it means that you get to punch even more holes later on, to the point where you are going to ultimately decimate their switch-ins (this is the reason why Latias is far better in comparison to other Psychics who could also lure Pursuits). Latias causes detrimental damage, either gets stopped or survives, and thus I can continue a gameplan from that point with ease. And a lot of this is from Latias' mere presence.

I find it easy to bypass Latias. If I'm using something like Gengar or Uxie, I don't want multiple Pursuit weak Pokemon. If I'm looking for a Wisher and I want to cover special threats, Blissey can Wish and cover the same threats plus Latias. Sometimes I use it to set up SR as well (since it gets a lot of free turns versus things like Latias or Vaporeon). If I'm looking for a dual screener, there are plenty of them. If I'm looking for offense, I might take MixMence to wall break or DDMence to set up and cause havok.

As for Latias doing detrimental damage, other Choice Users do the same thing. I repeat, this is not something that solely Latias does. Tyranitar, Snorlax, Kingdra, Heatran, Scizor all do this kind of damage. They either are going to get stopped (Rotom-A, Blissey) or they can survive and come back in and punch more holes in the team. This, again, is not something only Latias does. I am not sure why you seem to think this, but from my view it appears that you are only acknowledging Latias doing this.

---

I still stand by my conclusion that because Choice Band and Specs users are so rare, anyone who wants it Uber is saying that because they aren't used to dealing with the kind of power it brings.

Honestly, one quick search through the Battle Stats and I found 7 OU Pokemon that use Choice Band. Of those 7, four (Mamoswine, Flygon, Aerodactyl, Snorlax) of them have Choice Band use that's low compared to other items. Weavile, Mamoswine, and Snorlax are hardly seen. Only three Choice Band using Pokemon are in the top 30 Pokemon. For Choice Specs, there were only 3 OU Pokemon using it. Rotom-s is literally never seen (used in .01% of all battles), and Latias has other items that are used much, much more in comparison. Jolteon is decently common, but not really common.

So yes, I'd say that these Choice Pokemon are so rare that people really lack experience with facing them. That leads to the point where when a strong Pokemon came in and used a Choiced Item, it was ridiculously hard to adapt to it. Especially since it was Specs and I can't think of anything but Alakazam and PGZ that used it commonly at all in the past few months, possibly year. Because of this I can confidently conclude that because there is so little experience in dealing with this kind of power, people cannot handle it completely and this lack of time to adapt to the threat is why people want it Uber. And I have not idea how to end this so I'm going to leave it at that.

 

[Philip7086]

I don't get how you can sit there talking about Band/Specs on other Pokemon being comparably as effective as Latias. You are seriously underestimating the whole package that Latias provides, which no other Band/Specs Pokemon can boast: bulk, power, and speed. The point is, Latias easily finds ways in because of its excellent defensive typing and ability, outspeeds 90% of non-scarfed OU Pokemon, and slams things with its insane Special Attack. The speed is the differentiating factor here when you consider a Pokemon's ability to sweep. Sure, CB Tyranitar and Scizor, or Specs Heatran can hit things hard, but then they are easily outpaced for a revenge kill (key word: "easily" because most Pokemon need Scarf to revenge kill Latias). On top of that, it's harder for them to come in and spam an attack, as even though they are bulky like Latias, they are often outpaced by Pokemon in OU, meaning they only have the option of switching in on things that cannot KO them, whereas Latias can switch in on things that CAN KO her, and still force them out because she can simply KO first. To top it all off, Latias can pretty easily just spam powerful attacks while remaining unscathed (due to her speed) unless placed in an extremely specialized metagame, where so many Pokemon are dedicated to ensuring this doesn't happen (see: Scarf Tyranitar). You are very naive if you think that Latias is even comparable to any other Specs user in OU. I'm not even going to go into detail about the near un-resisted STAB that Latias has, which no other Choice user can claim (bar Salamence, but I think Salamence should be tested for Ubers anyways).

 

[Stylish Interval]

The following response may not be in the best order but I did my best to address you and make it look as good for you as possible.

I don't get how you can sit there talking about Band/Specs on other Pokemon being comparably as effective as Latias. You are seriously underestimating the whole package that Latias provides, which no other Band/Specs Pokemon can boast: bulk, power, and speed. The point is, Latias easily finds ways in because of its excellent defensive typing and ability, outspeeds 90% of non-scarfed OU Pokemon, and slams things with its insane Special Attack. The speed is the differentiating factor here when you consider a Pokemon's ability to sweep. Sure, CB Tyranitar and Scizor, or Specs Heatran can hit things hard, but then they are easily outpaced for a revenge kill (key word: "easily" because most Pokemon need Scarf to revenge kill Latias). On top of that, it's harder for them to come in and spam an attack, as even though they are bulky like Latias, they are often outpaced by Pokemon in OU, meaning they only have the option of switching in on things that cannot KO them, whereas Latias can switch in on things that CAN KO her, and still force them out because she can simply KO first. To top it all off, Latias can pretty easily just spam powerful attacks while remaining unscathed (due to her speed) unless placed in an extremely specialized metagame, where so many Pokemon are dedicated to ensuring this doesn't happen (see: Scarf Tyranitar). You are very naive if you think that Latias is even comparable to any other Specs user in OU. I'm not even going to go into detail about the near un-resisted STAB that Latias has, which no other Choice user can claim (bar Salamence, but I think Salamence should be tested for Ubers anyways).

First thought that comes to my mind when comparing Choiced Pokemon is that they are not sweepers, but rather they are employed on a team to break down the opponents team to set up a sweep for another Pokemon or to put yourself at an advantage over the opponent. From there I think about power and how important it is; the stronger the Pokemon, the better it will be at doing this job as a choice user. Then I think about how many times it can go in and out. And that's how I think about Choiced Pokemon.

Now then, you bring up the package that I was curious about when Ashley replied to me. Bulk, power, and speed, huh? Well first, I'd like to critique this package. I don't see speed as important. It might be important if you plan on sweeping with something, but not if you're using a Pokemon to blow holes into the opponent's team. The important thing there is power first, bulk and the ability to switch in second. Speed is not important on these Pokemon, as they are not meant to sweep. It's just a bonus. So for a Pokemon to do it's job efficiently as a Choice User it needs to be able to hit hard and find time to switch in; it does not need to be fast to do it's job.

Now then, in this metagame (Standard, not suspect) there are plenty of speed boosting Pokemon and plenty of priority user and plenty of scarf users. One quick glance at the top ten and nine of them use of these things commonly. This is another reason why speed doesn't matter. Latias isn't going to have the time to sweep like you would like it to. It's going to hit / kill things and either die or come back and hit / kill things. Myself and other users have already said this in the thread. When was the last time you killed something with Latias or something switched in and Latias wasn't threatened and forced to retreat? It probably happened more often than not. That's because it doesn't matter how fast Latias is, it is stuck on a move that is going to allow something to threaten it or even kill it .

As for bulk and power, Heatran has 91/106/106 Defenses with 12 resistances and immunities; Latias has 80/90/130 and 7 resistances and immunities. I'd say the bulk and ability to switch in are pretty comparable. As for power, I've already shown it's power. Without a Heatran, Blissey, or Snorlax, this thing is going to do probably more damage than Latias would. It definitely is comparable with Latias as a Specs User.

Anyway, you seem to be hung up on Specs Latias being a sweeper. Well, it's not. I mean, sure, it can be if you eliminate the Pursuit user on your opponent's team, the scarfers, priority users, and you make sure it's safe to use Dragon Pulse or something, but I could say the same for any Pokemon. Make it easy for it to attack and have no threats to it, sure it can sweep. Specs Latias is a wall breaking-esque Pokemon. It blows holes in the other team, like other Choice Users.

From here you say that these other Choice Pokemon have the ability to switch in only on Pokemon that can't KO them while Latias can switch in on Pokemon that can KO it. Well, I personally would not switch my Latias in on Scizor, Tyranitar, Salamence, Latias, Jirachi, Metagross, Gengar, Lucario, Starmie, Breloom, Gyarados, or Machamp. I guess you're talking about something like Rotom-A or Swampert? So I guess Latias can switch into Defensive Pokemon, but so can other Choice Users?

And finally, about Latias spamming attacks and remaining unscathed. I kind of already touched up on this but I guess I'll expand. Unless the opponents team is odd, they probably have some way of threatening your Latias after making a kill. This could be Pursuit (Scizor and Ttar being the top two most used Pokemon) or a Scarf Pokemon (Jirachi, Latias, Heatran, Rotom-A) or priority (Scizor, Lucario). You could also be set up on if you use Draco Meteor or Dragon Pulse or forced out (say by...Metagross, Jirachi, or Empoleon).

Personally Phil, and no disrespect here, you appear to be naive. You seem to think that because Latias is fast it suddenly is more powerful than other Choice Pokemon. But it's not. Why does speed matter? So you can outspeed whatever you're switching in on? You wouldn't switch in on something unless you could threaten it anyway, whether you outspeed it or not. It's power that matters as a Specs User, something that other users can match Latias at.

I wish to reiterate the following point - Specs Latias is not a sweeper. If you use it as one, you must support it like you would any other sweeper. Specs Latias cannot sweep if there are Steels, Pursuit users, strong priority or Scarfers on the opponents team. It will be forced out or beaten every time. These things are prevalent in Standard, and aren't just in a specialized metagame. If you sweep with Specs Latias without giving it any support, I'd love to hear about how you did it, because I don't see it happening. I see Specs Latias doing what every other powerful Choice User does in OU - do large amounts of damage to the opponents team and make it easier for another Pokemon to sweep.

 

[Philip7086]

@Stylish Interval:

Huh? Are you really making the claim that speed is not important when using a Specs or Band Pokemon? How often do you think CB TTar or Specs Heatran can come in on hyper offensive teams? Can they come in on Pokemon like Mixed Salamence, Infernape, or Lucario to revenge kill them? Hell no. I don't see how anyone with experience or solid theorymon can make the claim that speed is not important in a metagame dominated by offensive teams. Sure, I'll agree with you that the primary purpose of Band/Specs users is to blast holes in teams (though that has never stopped me from cleaning up 3-4 Pokemon with a Specs Dragon Pulse on multiple occasions in the past), but how does that take away from the importance of speed? Speed gives Latias so many more opportunities to come in and shoot off attacks for free. I'm obviously not saying that Latias should be switching into risky attackers. I'm saying that upon revenge, Latias has so many more options to switch in and blast something than other Band/Specs Pokemon do. This really shouldn't have to be spelled out to people -__-.

 

[Stylish Interval]

I didn't say speed wasn't important. I said it was the least important thing to consider. Actually I did say it was just a bonus, and it really is. You even say (and agree with me) that the primary purpose is to blast holes into teams. So is speed necessary to do that? No. It's not. It's just a great bonus.

About Hyper Offensive teams, they're usually behind screens and set up to be powerful aren't they? I don't think Latias is going to fare well against those either lol.

As for revenge killing those Pokemon, no, the other Specs users can't. But Latias cannot revenge kill Lucario (where did you come up with that?) and what if Latias gets set up on after revenge killing one of those Pokemon? Tons of Pokemon can revenge kill, but being able to revenge kill doesn't make something a more efficient choice Pokemon. It maybe gives it an edge over other Specs Pokemon (being able to fulfill an extra role), but it doesn't make it better at doing it's job.

I can see what you're saying about it forces things out when revenging other Pokemon, but why does that matter? I am still at a loss. I guess that can make it easier to switch in but does that make it better at attacking? I don't think it makes it do it's job any better than other Choice Pokemon.

So yes, I am still not seeing why Speed makes Latias so much more dangerous than these Specs Pokemon. Heatran can attack with more power, but because it cannot revenge other Pokemon it is worse than Latias at doing it's job? I am going to need this to be spelled out to me. I will admit though, seeing that it can come in and have more opportunities does kind of swing me back in the way you're seeing it. But then again how many fast Pokemon doesn't Heatran threaten anyway? And especially in a metagame about boosting speed and priority, how many Pokemon can Latias revenge really that make it so much better than other Specs Users at doing it's job?


Quick edit: After seeing how much you guys seem to think that speed along with it's power, I'm going to go build a team with Specs Latias (that doesn't have Manaphy lol) and take it for a spin on the ladder and then report back. I really don't see how it makes it that much more threatening besides maybe being able to hit something on the revenge kill.

 

[supermarth64]

(Not going to make long post due to time constraints).

It's not because more Speed makes it so you cannot revenge other Pokemon but rather a Pokemon has to take two hits before it can move. For example Fastcune (Offensive Suicune) can come in on a Specs Fire Blast from Heatran and KO back with a Surf/Hydro Pump. If it switches into Specs Latias, it has to take two attacks before it can retaliate with an Ice Beam. Also, the type of STAB is very important to this because since Latias has Dragon-type STAB, very few FAST Pokemon in OU resist it. In fact, the fastest Pokemon that resists Draco Meteor in OU is Jirachi, who still takes around 50-60% from back-to-back Draco Meteors (252/0 spread). The Speed, coupled with bulk and power along with a Dragon-type STAB is what makes Latias so threatening.

You cannot look at each piece of Latias by itself. This is similar to how Garchomp was looked at. Many Pokemon have offensive capabilities rivaling Garchomp's, such as Salamence. However, Garchomp's typing and higher bulkiness helps overshadow that. Also, some people were complaining how Gliscor has Sand Veil like Garchomp. Garchomp is a lot more threatening IN CONJUNCTION with all of his other traits. The same can be said about Latias. Many Pokemon can rival Latias' Speed, bulk, and power. However, none of them have all three of them at the same time.

 

[Stylish Interval]

Actually before I build my team I do want to ask something.

You say that the speed is important because if a Pokemon switches in to absorb a hit it's going to have to take two hits. Well, for Heatran, for example, the switch-ins are usually going to be slower (unless it's Latias). Vaporeon, Suicune, Swampert are who I would say are the most common that aren't Blissey. Then it's Latias but Latias takes a huge chunk of damage from Fire Blast, meaning that something else can come in with relative ease because unless it's offensive it's probably going to heal itself.

So really where I am seeing speed even matter is when a) the Pokemon is already in and it can 2HKO the opposing Pokemon that is switching in / do a shitload of damage and take little by from them or b) when it's going to revenge kill a Pokemon. Is this right?

Edit for Phil: You did drive the point home indeed :) Now to put some thought into this while using Specs Latias more.
Edit 2: Yup. You're right. I guess I was arguing out of my ass but after looking through the last few posts against mine, you're completely right and I cannot say anything that denies what you say is true.

 

[Philip7086]

I didn't say speed wasn't important. I said it was the least important thing to consider. Actually I did say it was just a bonus, and it really is. You even say (and agree with me) that the primary purpose is to blast holes into teams. So is speed necessary to do that? No. It's not. It's just a great bonus.

Yeah, it's this "great bonus" that differentiates Latias from the rest of the Band/Specs users...

About Hyper Offensive teams, they're usually behind screens and set up to be powerful aren't they? I don't think Latias is going to fare well against those either lol.

You are incorrect if you think that hyper offense = screens. Your point is also further irrelevant because outspeeding and dealing damage through screens is still a ton more useful than being outsped and KOed.

As for revenge killing those Pokemon, no, the other Specs users can't. But Latias cannot revenge kill Lucario (where did you come up with that?)

Specs Surf vs. -1 Lucario: 98.9% - 116.7%
LO Adamant Espeed vs. Specs Latias: 40.1% - 47.4%

It's worth noting that Latias has a chance at surviving a +2 Adamanet ES, and is guaranteed to survive a Jolly one after SR. Either way, I never said Latias should be revenge killing a +2 Lucario, only that it could revenge kill Lucario. There are plenty of scenarios that can produce a situation listed above, by the way. If Luke is forced to CC Heatran, Tyranitar, or Blissey, for instance. I'm simply saying that Latias can do this, whereas Specs Tran, and Band TTar cannot.

and what if Latias gets set up on after revenge killing one of those Pokemon? Tons of Pokemon can revenge kill, but being able to revenge kill doesn't make something a more efficient choice Pokemon. It maybe gives it an edge over other Specs Pokemon (being able to fulfill an extra role), but it doesn't make it better at doing it's job.

I'm not really sure why you decided to mention that Pokemon can set up on a choiced Latias, since that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand (the topic being what makes Latias uber, and not other choiced Pokemon). As for the last part of that quote, thanks for finally accepting that Latias has an edge over (see: is better than) the other Specs/Band Pokemon in OU. My point is, that edge is enough to bump Latias into the Ubers tier.

I can see what you're saying about it forces things out when revenging other Pokemon, but why does that matter? I am still at a loss. I guess that can make it easier to switch in but does that make it better at attacking? I don't think it makes it do it's job any better than other Choice Pokemon.

I'm confused as to why you're confused here. You just said why Latias is better, then said you don't understand why Latias is better. Does it have to literally do more damage than other choiced attackers to be a better Pokemon? Is that what you're saying? If that's the case, then you don't understand competitive Pokemon as a whole. How are you going to do damage to things if they KO you first? Obviously one's damaging powers is not the only thing that should be considered here.

So yes, I am still not seeing why Speed makes Latias so much more dangerous than these Specs Pokemon. Heatran can attack with more power, but because it cannot revenge other Pokemon it is worse than Latias at doing it's job? I am going to need this to be spelled out to me. I will admit though, seeing that it can come in and have more opportunities does kind of swing me back in the way you're seeing it. But then again how many fast Pokemon doesn't Heatran threaten anyway? And especially in a metagame about boosting speed and priority, how many Pokemon can Latias revenge really that make it so much better than other Specs Users at doing it's job?

Relevant Pokemon who Latias outspeeds that Heatran can't:

Gyarados
Offensive Suicune
Offensive Rotom
Lucario
Porygon-Z
Roserade
Gliscor
Celebi
Jirachi
Salamence
Flygon
Infernape

Before you say things like Gyarados can get a DD, keep in mind there are plenty of situations where Pokemon are no able to pull a DD off where Latias can come in with ease. As for Pokemon who cannot immediately kill Heatran, please realize that simply being slower makes Heatran less effective, as if he is weakened, he cannot just tank hits and retaliate. On the other hand, Latias won't be taking a hit at all.

Anyways, this will likely be my last post on the matter. The unimportance of speed on a Specs Pokemon is one of the less convincing arguments I've heard on why Latias should be OU, so I won't waste anymore time. That, and I hopefully drove the point home with this post, because this is pretty basic Pokemon here.

 

[Mr.E]

If Speed and bulk were irrelevant to "blasting holes into teams," Rampardos would be top five OU.

 

[Aquamentus]

Like I've said before on Smogon server from time to time, Latios being Uber due to its immense wall-breaking power and speed, and Latias being a perfectly balanced OU always struck me as odd.

According to some mathulating from my handy dandy calculator, Latias has about 10% less Special Attack than Latios, but with the exact same typing, speed, and relevant movepool (plus Wish and Sucker Punch, minus Dragon Dance and Memento), with 15% more Special Defense and 10% more Defense, letting her take stuff like Ice Beam and Bullet Punch better that the banned Latios can.

If anything, Latias actually has better stats overall, though Latios's raw power is more relevant.

Hide

Modest Specs Latias Surf vs. 248/0 Scizor: 44.31% - 52.19% (100% 2HKO with SR, 13.02% chance without)

Modest Specs Latios Surf vs. 248/0 Scizor: 49.56% - 58.60% (100% 2HKO with SR, 98.62% chance without)



Modest Specs Latias Surf vs. 252/0 Tyranitar: 50.50% - 59.41% (100% 2HKO)

Modest Specs Latios Surf vs. 252/0 Tyranitar: 56.44% - 66.83% (100% 2HKO)



Granted, they could be running Timid over Modest or Scizor/Tyranitar could run Sp. Def EVs, but these are supposed to be Lati@s counters. Note that they occupy #1 and #2 in OU usage right now.

So my question is, does Latias really deserve to be a tier lower than Latios, or are they variations on essentially the same Pokemon? If Latios is overpowered, Latias would have to be really close to it simply because of how similar they are. I see the two as equals.

I'm not going to get into whether I think they're broken or not, but I would like to say that almost everything that got Latios voted Uber could be applied to his sister as well.

EDIT: OK, I forgot to mention Latios can do a mixed set better with a bit higher Attack and DD, but as far as Specs goes...

EDIT 2: And yeah, Timid is more useful. But I hope you guys got my point at least. I get nervous making posts like this >_>

 

[twash]

I always run Timid Latias, the power drop is far less significant than the ability to outspeed neutral Base 100s (and importantly, Infernape).

I won't comment too much on the previous page as it seems Stylish doesn't want to take it any further, but I'll simply say that "Speed is not too relevant" on a Pokemon like Latias doesn't wash one little bit. Speed makes Latias threatening as it means it can threaten those OHKOes before being hit heavily.

 

[jumpluff]

Oh, yeah, I did not notice that it was Modest. Agreed with Ashley on all points. Latias is the fastest Dragon in OU, for what it's worth. We know Tyranitar and Scizor aren't perfect counters regardless. They are its primary, most popular checks.

 

[Quaily]

I ran modest and I saw 60%+ surfs on scizors. Either most people were not running max hp on scizor(which would be bizarre) or... something else. The highest was 75%.