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I'm assuming that's exactly the point Bologo was trying to make. He was arguing that Tyranitar is an OU pokemon, yet with the criteria being applied to Manaphy and Latias (by what he views as the "old guard"), Tyranitar would have been voted overwhelmingly uber.
If Bologo feels that tyranitar is uber, that would make Latias and arguably Manaphy uber as well. I'm confident he sees them as OU, so I doubt he's arguing that T-tar is uber.
Latias is uber under the Support Characteristic. It can either just come in and dent shit all game long blowing holes into the other person's team making it easier to sweep or revenge killing (with scarf which is actually a very good set). Either you put up with it raping your team or you Pursuit it and that gives almost every sweeper a chance to set up and do bad things to your team (Machamp *piss off TTars, Gyarados, DD Mence etc.). Having it on your team with pokes that can take advantage of the Pursuits that people are forced to run (otherwise Latias beats them) just makes it really easy to play and makes the metagame shit. OU or Suspect it did the same thing.
Manaphy I did not use nor did I have any problems with in my small sample size on the suspect ladder so I can't really comment I guess most weren't running max speed or I was winning alot of speed ties with a Max Speed Superachi and Mence.
Latias is uber under the Support Characteristic. It can either just come in and dent shit all game long blowing holes into the other person's team making it easier to sweep or revenge killing (with scarf which is actually a very good set). Either you put up with it raping your team or you Pursuit it and that gives almost every sweeper a chance to set up and do bad things to your team (Machamp *piss off TTars, Gyarados, DD Mence etc.). Having it on your team with pokes that can take advantage of the Pursuits that people are forced to run (otherwise Latias beats them) just makes it really easy to play and makes the metagame shit. OU or Suspect it did the same thing.
This Gengar can get into the field pretty easily (as I'm sure we all know), because Gengar is a threat to quite a few Pokemon and can come in immune to the most used move in the game. This Gengar, once in and threatening something out, can set up a Sub. After it has, it has three attacking options.
- It can use HP Fire to KO Scizor, 2HKO Jirachi (non-CM) or at least dent scarfed versions, 2HKO Metagross, 2KHO Skarmory, and OHKO Breloom.
- It can use Shadow Ball to 2HKO (nearly OHKO) Salamence, 2HKO Latias (just barely missing the OHKO again), OHKO Rotom-A, 2HKO Gyarados, OHKO Gengar, 2KHO Infernape (nearly OHKO again), OHKO Starmie, 2HKO Gliscor, 2HKO Machamp, OHKO Azelf, and 2HKO Celebi.
- It can use Focus Blast to OHKO Tyranitar, OHKO Heatran, OHKO Lucario, and OHKO Magnezone.
As you can see, after this thing is behind a sub (or even not behind a sub although it guarantees quite a few kills behind one) it's going to basically tear a hole in your team. And this is with Leftovers rather than Life Orb. (I personally run LO to OHKO some things.) Obviously you need pursuit to keep this thing from switching out and coming back in to hit your team again. But if you Pursuit it, you're risking another Pokemon setting up! Oh no!
So is Gengar uber too, or did you say something in your post that Latias does that Gengar doesn't (without Specs)?
Also LoveDestiny I have a few questions for you but I will save those for tomorrow since I need to do stuff right now.
This Gengar can get into the field pretty easily (as I'm sure we all know), because Gengar is a threat to quite a few Pokemon and can come in immune to the most used move in the game. This Gengar, once in and threatening something out, can set up a Sub. After it has, it has three attacking options.
- It can use HP Fire to KO Scizor, 2HKO Jirachi (non-CM) or at least dent scarfed versions, 2HKO Metagross, 2KHO Skarmory, and OHKO Breloom.
- It can use Shadow Ball to 2HKO (nearly OHKO) Salamence, 2HKO Latias (just barely missing the OHKO again), OHKO Rotom-A, 2HKO Gyarados, OHKO Gengar, 2KHO Infernape (nearly OHKO again), OHKO Starmie, 2HKO Gliscor, 2HKO Machamp, OHKO Azelf, and 2HKO Celebi.
- It can use Focus Blast to OHKO Tyranitar, OHKO Heatran, OHKO Lucario, and OHKO Magnezone.
As you can see, after this thing is behind a sub (or even not behind a sub although it guarantees quite a few kills behind one) it's going to basically tear a hole in your team. And this is with Leftovers rather than Life Orb. (I personally run LO to OHKO some things.) Obviously you need pursuit to keep this thing from switching out and coming back in to hit your team again. But if you Pursuit it, you're risking another Pokemon setting up! Oh no!
So is Gengar uber too, or did you say something in your post that Latias does that Gengar doesn't (without Specs)?
Also LoveDestiny I have a few questions for you but I will save those for tomorrow since I need to do stuff right now.
um. not really. gengar doesnt have the niche that latias does. first of all, it is really frail, and after rocks, Gengar struggles with taking any STAB attack, and most neutral attacks will kill it. so, it is really OHKO or be OHKOed. Gengar also gets only a few attacks due to Life Orb, any residual damage from Stealth Rock, and possible sandstorm (which is very prevelant). Latias is so much more durable. It can come in on several attacks, and with specs it hits like a truck right off the bat. Gengar doesn't usually run specs, and it doesnt have the great dragon STAB that latias has. Latias is a way bigger threat than gengar is.
If anything, I think though people's mindsets are probably skewed towards über on 'unbanning' things, the test is skewed towards unbanning them, because it requires you to vote on a metagame that hasn't had full time to adapt, isn't fully active despite valiant efforts from the admins + Shoddy mods who advertise it with /wall, and is overprepared for the threat.
Stylish Interval: I've used that Gengar, and trust me, even if it was as powerful as you say (though it is quite good), it would still be nothing on Latias. First of all, Latias is a Dragon, meaning its STAB is... yeah, you get it. Secondly, it's quite bulky, something that Gengar cannot boast. Secondly, Latias can at least beat Tyranitar in various non-gimmicky ways (though it depends on what Ttar is running, meaning it's unreliable); any Gengar is stuck hoping Focus Blast hits, unless it's running Focus Punch. Thirdly, as undisput3d said, residual damage kills that Gengar off fast. On top of that, Latias uses 100% accurate moves, instead of shitty Focus Blast, and is not forced to use the Speed-lowering Hidden Power Fire (though HP Fire Latias is awesome and very threatening, do not get me wrong).
Also, what you are bringing up is a problem with the characteristics themselves, not Latias. / how they are interpreted
If anything, I think though people's mindsets are probably skewed towards über on 'unbanning' things, the test is skewed towards unbanning them, because it requires you to vote on a metagame that hasn't had full time to adapt, isn't fully active despite valiant efforts from the admins + Shoddy mods who advertise it with /wall, and is overprepared for the threat.
You say this despite the fact that every single stage 2 suspect test ended with an Uber vote, with the exception of Latias. And because people haven't had that full time to adapt, it means that by the time the test is done, a lot of people still haven't figured out ways to deal with the suspect. Since they're supposed to vote on the suspect metagame, and not how it would look in OU, this is definitely skewed toward uber, rather than OU/unbanning.
I should expand on my point. The most important point is overprepared for the threat. The fact the metagame hasn't had time to adapt and settle means that we're voting on a metagame that is, if anything, designed to beat these suspects. The fact that we still aren't beating them is worth considering. Are we missing lots of ways, or are there really few viable ways? Most people who go into the suspect test (that I talk to, anyway) prepare way more than they would for ordinary threats. Actually, we've had Latias for quite some time now, and I can't think of anyone I know who's decided it was OU recently. I do know multiple people who have deemed it über, including me.
You say this despite the fact that every single stage 2 suspect test ended with an Uber vote, with the exception of Latias. And because people haven't had that full time to adapt, it means that by the time the test is done, a lot of people still haven't figured out ways to deal with the suspect. Since they're supposed to vote on the suspect metagame, and not how it would look in OU, this is definitely skewed toward uber, rather than OU/unbanning.
Precisely, that's what my custom title is about: most suspects check each other to a reasonable extent, which may not stop them from being too broken but still helps, and when you remove one or two, the others become overpowering.
Actually, we've had Latias for quite some time now, and I can't think of anyone I know who's decided it was OU recently. I do know multiple people who have deemed it über, including me.
Really? It honestly doesn't seem to me like many people have changed their position on Latias since stage 3-3. Looking at the votes from stage 3-3, it seems like most of the people who voted uber are still leaning towards uber, as shown from their posts in this thread, and most of the people who voted OU are still leaning towards OU, also shown by their posts in this thread. While I didn't play last round, I'm still voting both suspects OU (if I'm allowed to vote, that is).
Also, I do agree with your point. However, the overpreparation for a threat can work both ways. While it may seem like it causes bias towards unbanning, it can also cause bias towards banning, because there are some people who feel that the way the suspect ladder is the way it would be in OU, though the centralization would clearly not be as severe as it is on this ladder.
Exactly what jumpluff said. People need to look at this like an "all or nothing situation". Removing one or two of them makes the metagame focused on the one(s) left. For example, without Latias, Salamence will be on every team as it is now the fastest Dragon typed Pokemon left in OU. All three need to be Uber, or all three need to be OU, and they all should be Uber. Scarftar is on basically every team because Latias wrecks things up with Choice Specs/Scarf Draco Meteors. Salamence is the only Pokemon that I make my teams have at least one dedicated counter, and several other members to revenge at low health. Manaphy is the most underrated suspect, and it's rediculous that no one sees it. The Crophy set is an absolute menace no matter what checks I have. If it manages to get 2 Calm Minds coupled with instant healing, it is close to game over unless I have a Trick user which any good player can work around. These threat are making the metagame so "centralized", and I think it would be more fun if I could make a team without saying "if I don't put Scarftar on, I risk losing to Latias a lot," or "if I dont pack a Pokemon that outruns Salamence after a Dragon Dance, I'm screwed".
This Gengar can get into the field pretty easily (as I'm sure we all know), because Gengar is a threat to quite a few Pokemon and can come in immune to the most used move in the game. This Gengar, once in and threatening something out, can set up a Sub. After it has, it has three attacking options.
- It can use HP Fire to KO Scizor, 2HKO Jirachi (non-CM) or at least dent scarfed versions, 2HKO Metagross, 2KHO Skarmory, and OHKO Breloom.
- It can use Shadow Ball to 2HKO (nearly OHKO) Salamence, 2HKO Latias (just barely missing the OHKO again), OHKO Rotom-A, 2HKO Gyarados, OHKO Gengar, 2KHO Infernape (nearly OHKO again), OHKO Starmie, 2HKO Gliscor, 2HKO Machamp, OHKO Azelf, and 2HKO Celebi.
- It can use Focus Blast to OHKO Tyranitar, OHKO Heatran, OHKO Lucario, and OHKO Magnezone.
As you can see, after this thing is behind a sub (or even not behind a sub although it guarantees quite a few kills behind one) it's going to basically tear a hole in your team. And this is with Leftovers rather than Life Orb. (I personally run LO to OHKO some things.) Obviously you need pursuit to keep this thing from switching out and coming back in to hit your team again. But if you Pursuit it, you're risking another Pokemon setting up! Oh no!
So is Gengar uber too, or did you say something in your post that Latias does that Gengar doesn't (without Specs)?
Also LoveDestiny I have a few questions for you but I will save those for tomorrow since I need to do stuff right now.
See because it misses all those OHKO's that Latias will get with it's coverage and power of the Specs set people tend to stay in on Gengar anyways. Latias is also bulky (walls way more stuff) and can take a hit from something that decides to stay in that it only 2HKO's while Gengar dents and dies. A Latias at low health can still come in later and throw out a Draco Meteor to KO something or sweep with Dragon Pulse. That's why it is a lot better.
There are other sets that you can argue for it being uber but it only needs one amazing set for it to be called uber so we'll just stick with Specs.
I happen to think the Scarf set is the ultimate momentum taker and really forces non stall teams into a bind. Being able to revenge kill anything just takes away a well executed set up and to prevent it from repeatedly doing that you would have to Pursuit which gives the other team momentum to do whatever they want with you.
The real problem with the Suspect Tests is the way SEXP is calculated. By making it based on how much the players used the suspects, more people use the suspects to get more SEXP, thus distorting the usage statistics. Not only does this make the monthly usage statistics not a reliable source for arguments about the tiering of suspects, but it also makes the suspects seem more centralizing than they actually are. Although "overcentralizing" is not something that is officially used as evidence for Uber status, many voters still see it as something that needs to be avoided through tiering. Variety is not a specific goal of the Suspect Tests according to the Administrators, but it is a goal for some of the voters, even if they do not say or even recognize it. Thus, encouraging the use of the suspects through the SEXP formula makes the suspects more likely to be voted Uber. This is why it would be better to have voting status based on rating alone.
This is what is happening with Latias. Normally in OU, a team would not devote more than one or sometimes two Pokemon to countering Latias, and would not do more to check Latias than it would to check, for example, Gyarados. But in the Suspect Test, almost every player will end up using Latias, so checking it suddenly becomes much more important. Notice that many of the arguments against Latias being OU revolve around the idea that Latias is Uber because of how it takes too many Pokemon, or one of just a few frequently used Pokemon, to check Latias. Like for most OUs, Latias requires at least one Pokemon to counter, and the centralization caused by the SEXP formula amplifies this. So some people are arguing that Latias is Uber because it causes too much centralization in its counters. But much of this centralization is due not to Latias being a good Pokemon, but due to the SEXP formula's encouragement and the hype surrounding Specs Latias. If Infernape had been Uber at the beginning of DP, and were being tested as a suspect now, people would be using the arguments of "it forces everyone to use Latias or Cresselia" and "No one Pokemon can stop all sets."
This is what is happening with Latias. Normally in OU, a team would not devote more than one or sometimes two Pokemon to countering Latias, and would not do more to check Latias than it would to check, for example, Gyarados. But in the Suspect Test, almost every player will end up using Latias, so checking it suddenly becomes much more important. Notice that many of the arguments against Latias being OU revolve around the idea that Latias is Uber because of how it takes too many Pokemon, or one of just a few frequently used Pokemon, to check Latias. Like for most OUs, Latias requires at least one Pokemon to counter, and the centralization caused by the SEXP formula amplifies this. So some people are arguing that Latias is Uber because it causes too much centralization in its counters. But much of this centralization is due not to Latias being a good Pokemon, but due to the SEXP formula's encouragement and the hype surrounding Specs Latias. If Infernape had been Uber at the beginning of DP, and were being tested as a suspect now, people would be using the arguments of "it forces everyone to use Latias or Cresselia" and "No one Pokemon can stop all sets."
While I agree with your point that SEXP is incorrectly assumed to be valid, I highly disagree that people have overreacted to Latias. On a Suspect Test you should try to fit in the suspects on your teams. Of course the suspect metagame will be cetralized. But we've had Latias in OU for a while now. I shit my pants when I found out it was OU in January.
Latias made me radically change my stall team. It made me radically change my other teams. I changed the way I played, especially if I had that feeling Latias was coming in. I played Scizor before it was cool. When it rose dramatically, it was clearly not broken. You didn't have to radically change your team, though a few choices may have been helped by Scizor's presence. Now Latias is different. It takes apart teams, regardless of the set. Specs rams through stall and HO alike. Scarf ruins momentum for balanced and HO teams. CM versions eat stall and balanced teams for breakfast much like CM Jirachi. And what Latias can do that no other pokemon can do: it can cover its switchins. Scizor dies to Specs Surf or HP: Fire, all common. Tyranitar dies to Specs Draco Meteor or Surf. Blissey eats Trick or just gets worn down by Draco Meteor, creating easy setups when Blissey heals. Empoleon risks Thunderbolt. Basically, Dragon STAB + Surf makes Latias incredibly hard to take down. Add in Trick, CM, recovery, support options like Reflect and Roar, and Thunderbolt with that deceptive bulk. You just met a monster.
Manaphy has probably gotten less usage than Latias in suspect testing. Why? Dragon STAB owns. That extra speed is key. Manaphy is hard to use effectively. People can throw Latias on a team and expect it to succeed. But Manaphy is not like that. There are so many other bulky waters sitting around just waiting for a shot. Does that make it less uber? Not by a long shot. But I haven't played with Manaphy much and won't make huge judgments here.
You also have to consider the abundance of Specially Defensive Steel types and other resistances in OU. Timid Specs Latias' Draco Meteor does (not counting Stealth Rock):
49.8% - 58.8% to standard Choice Scarf Heatran,
59.6% - 70.2% to standard Choice Scarf Tyranitar,
53.4% - 63% to a standard Choice Band Scizor, around 50% for Bulky versions
33.1% - 39.1% to Standard Wall Bronzong
44.1% - 52.3% to Special Defensive Forretress
~40% to all Jirachi
It only does 48.4% - 57.1% to even Agility SubPetaya Empoleon, meaning it can easily set up an Agility if it tries to switch out or attack again. Same with Agiligross, Draco Meteor does only 50.5% - 59.6% to Agiligross, meaning it can also Agility as Latias switches out or attacks at -2. OU is chock full of these Dragon-type resists, meaning Specs Latias can't even 2HKO most of them.
So Latias does some damage to Steel types, but can't hope to take them out that easily. Latias has plenty of checks in OU that can take advantage of the fact that it is Specsed and set up.
I don't find Latias anywhere near as threatening as Mence. Mix and DD Mence are absolute terrors and extremely hard to counter them unless your bulky Water types are at full HP. The progression of the match could see them at around 80% by the time Mence steps up to the plate, which is easy KO range for him. Latias tends to be fairly one-dimensional and I don't expect it to do anything besides spam Draco Meteors, which Metagross, Snorlax, Blissey, Magnezone, Scizor, Tyranitar, and Jirachi can take with ease. Of course, there's also Weavile on the revenge. Things could get a little more complicated if it's a CM or support variant, but manageable all the same.
If we get Latias into Ubers, then Salamence had better be in line for the next Suspect test.
Warning: Long Post Ahead. Basically I want to get my thoughts out, possibly convert Uber people to OU and keep my second favorite Dragon in OU. Also yes, I break everything into damn small tiny paragraphs because it makes it easier for everyone to read it and I enjoy the spacing.
um. not really. gengar doesnt have the niche that latias does. first of all, it is really frail, and after rocks, Gengar struggles with taking any STAB attack, and most neutral attacks will kill it. so, it is really OHKO or be OHKOed. Gengar also gets only a few attacks due to Life Orb, any residual damage from Stealth Rock, and possible sandstorm (which is very prevelant). Latias is so much more durable. It can come in on several attacks, and with specs it hits like a truck right off the bat. Gengar doesn't usually run specs, and it doesnt have the great dragon STAB that latias has. Latias is a way bigger threat than gengar is.
Niche that Latias has? What niche is that? The fastest dragon in OU?
Gengar is frail. I'm pretty sure everyone said that. Let me ask you, when was the last time you were looking at an offensive Pokemon and you went "Hey this thing is so frail it won't actually do it's job at all."? You didn't, probably. Gengar can deal over 50% to most Pokemon. Meaning it can OHKO or 2HKO most Pokemon. Crazy. Latias and Gengar do the same thing - they hit stuff for big damage totals.
You know what, let me do a little comparison on this "frail" concept. I assume everyone in this thread knows how much of an offensive beast Salamence is. But did you know how frail it is? Vaporeons Surf can do 25% to it, which, with SR in play, eliminates 50% before it even sets up if it switches in. That's right. A resisted attack coming off of the lowest neutral Sp.A stat Vaporeon has and it does 25%. So a base 71 power attack (after modifiers) from a 256 Attack Stat is doing 25% to Salamence, and in conjunction with SR is eliminating 50% of it's health. Pretty frail. So yeah, I don't think you compare how well off an offensive Pokemon is defensively to see which one is better, or else no one would use Salamence and everyone would use Dragonite.
Stylish Interval: I've used that Gengar, and trust me, even if it was as powerful as you say (though it is quite good), it would still be nothing on Latias. First of all, Latias is a Dragon, meaning its STAB is... yeah, you get it. Secondly, it's quite bulky, something that Gengar cannot boast. Secondly, Latias can at least beat Tyranitar in various non-gimmicky ways (though it depends on what Ttar is running, meaning it's unreliable); any Gengar is stuck hoping Focus Blast hits, unless it's running Focus Punch. Thirdly, as undisput3d said, residual damage kills that Gengar off fast. On top of that, Latias uses 100% accurate moves, instead of shitty Focus Blast, and is not forced to use the Speed-lowering Hidden Power Fire (though HP Fire Latias is awesome and very threatening, do not get me wrong).
Also, what you are bringing up is a problem with the characteristics themselves, not Latias. / how they are interpreted
Why would it be nothing on Latias? Dragon STAB > Ghost STAB? Are you aware only Steel and Dark resist ghost with Normal being immune as well. So Dark is only Tyranitar, which threatens Latias. Steel resists both STABS. That leaves the, what, 3 normal OU Pokemon to be immune? The typing of the attack has almost no effect, especially since while Latias hits common steels NVE, Gengar hits Metagross and Jirachi neutral.
You talk about Gengar relying on shaky accuracy to beat Tyranitar. So what? 7/10 times Focus Blast is going to hit. I personally don't think that accuracy matters. If you need it to miss in order to take it down, you're relying on luck to beat it.
Residual damage doesn't beat Gengar either. I don't know where you guys got this concept. Has residual damage ever beaten Salamence? Yeah, after it gets two or three kills. Same with Gengar. It won't die to 12% + 10% going on. That's less than Salamence takes. It'll die to a hit.
Small note: Draco Meteor has 90% accuracy. Meaning it's not always going to hit.
And finally, Gengar doesn't need HP Fire. It's just useful to beat everything. And what, you lose a speed tie with Latias (the only common base 110)? You seriously don't lose anything bar a 50% chance to beat Latias by running HP Fire, and gain the ability to beat your most relied on check.
It would be great also to know what issue I brought up with the characteristic. He literally spelled out that Latias fit the support char. because " It can either just come in and dent shit all game long blowing holes into the other person's team making it easier to sweep". I'm saying it the same way he's saying it. Gengar can literally just come in and dent shit all game long. If you're saying we're both misinterpreting it then I don't see a case for Latias to be Uber.
See because it misses all those OHKO's that Latias will get with it's coverage and power of the Specs set people tend to stay in on Gengar anyways. Latias is also bulky (walls way more stuff) and can take a hit from something that decides to stay in that it only 2HKO's while Gengar dents and dies. A Latias at low health can still come in later and throw out a Draco Meteor to KO something or sweep with Dragon Pulse. That's why it is a lot better.
What OHKOs does Latias get with it's coverage? Gengar can run the same coverage and Latias doesn't OHKO a whole lot that Gengar doesn't without using Draco Meteor, which, of course, sets itself up to be set up on or Pursuited easily.
I've already addressed why being bulky has nothing to do with anything. A wall-breaker (which is what Specs Latias is) doesn't need to be bulky, or Infernape's analysis wouldn't say "To say that this is good at taking out walls is a gross understatement." It might get a few switches in easier, but that just makes it easier at switching in, not better at hitting things.
Another note: LO Gengar's Shadow Ball is nearly as powerful as Specs Latias' Dragon Pulse. I don't get also why Latias would be albe to waltz in at low health. There is no way Latias is going to sweep unless you've removed the steels and priority users or faster Pokemon on the other team. Gengar has the same base speed, why wouldn't it be able to sweep? With just 11% HP it can still KO 2 Pokemon. A mini-sweep that sets up a big sweep.
Basically all of this was, from what I have gathered:
Latias is bulkier than Gengar therefore better at being a wallbreaker.
Latias can hit things harder with Draco Meteor (and apparently for you all there is no backlash and it gets many KOs with Draco Meteor. Because I swear none of you mentioned that it's Sp.A halves or that it can get set up on by steel types or that it could be pursuited and be limited to one kill)
Latias is a Dragon Type therefore it is superior and can hit things harder.
For 1), it's common sense that defense doesn't matter in how hard something can hit. For 2) Yes it can KO something with DM but then it's got halved Sp.A and you can set up on or die. One kill doesn't sound game breaking to me, and if it is let's get rid of Salamence, Ttar, Infernape, Metagross, and Lucario too. And for 3) Ghost and Dragon are both reisisted by the exact same number of Pokemon in OU, most of which are the same Pokemon (Tyranitar and Blissey being the two different ones for Gengar, and Metagross and Jirachi for Latias), so the STAB really doesn't matter there; they essentially hit the same things.
Warning: Post that I typed before anyone responded so it may cover some things you may have covered but I'm not sure about that.
I am making this post as if I had not been responded to after my last one. These are my thoughts about Latias and why I think it is not Uber.
It has been said that Latias restricts team building options. If we took every Pokemon out of standard play, and then we added them back in, one by one, team building would “restricted” for each new Pokemon. The point of that is to show that every time a new Pokemon is added, no matter what it is, so long as it can compete with the current OU Pokemon in standard play it will force you to run something to deal with it or to shift your strategy or team. Latias is just another Pokemon that was added into OU. Of course it changed team building options, but it didn’t restrict them, it took away some and added some, creating an overall balance to play.
If standard play started with just ten (10) Pokemon, you would only have to check or deal with those ten Pokemon. Team building would be rather easy. With another ten (10) Pokemon, team building becomes a little bit harder than before; you have to deal with 10 more threats to your team and therefore must prepare a strategy or way to deal with those extra 10 Pokemon. Another ten (10) and it’s even harder, but not impossible. 30 Pokemon is essentially OU. While there is closer to 50 in OU there are really only 30 or so used majorly that you need to concern yourself with. Other Pokemon are essentially so similar that if you can deal with the common Pokemon, you can deal with the less common.
As you can see, team building is harder with more Pokemon introduced, simply because you must have a way to not be wrecked by those Pokemon. So it’s not just Latias that’s “restricting” team building. Any Pokemon brought down or introduced to Standard would cause “restriction” to team building.
To close this part of my post, I will bring up Bologo’s example of Tyranitar. If Tyranitar was never OU, but Uber, and we tested it, would it be accepted as OU? It would be described as an absolute monster, requiring you to have a way to deal with it. And unless you used Dugtrio, it could just come in, attack, and switch out only to come back in later in the match and do more damage. Not to mention the sand (which wouldn’t be very prevalent if only Hippowdon was in OU) would be knocking 6% off of your sweepers (which has shown its effects on Salamence in the current metagame) and cancelling out leftovers on your defensive Pokemon. It sounds like something that would also “restrict” team building.
Now then, it has been stated that Latias is a great support Pokemon because it can damage the other team to the extent where a sweep is ridiculously easy. But does Latias actually threaten a team like this anymore than another wallbreaker would? Does Latias actually create higher chances of sweeping or winning?
Gengar is well known for having no counters. In fact, with its Life Orb set and HP Fire > HP Ice, it can OHKO or 2HKO every common Pokemon (possibly all) in the metagame besides Blissey with SR in play. So my question is, what does Latias do that Gengar doesn’t?
“Latias can spam Draco Meteor” is something I’ve seen a few times. But the truth is, it can’t spam DM any better than Gengar can spam Shadow ball. Latias might achieve one kill, but at -2 Sp.A what can it do after that? If a Pursuit user (Scizor, Tyranitar) comes in, it would limit Latias to that one kill.
Of course, now the question is whether Pursuit is run solely because of Latias. It may very well be, but if Latias were gone, wouldn’t it still be run for Gengar? I wouldn’t want my only answer to this monster to be priority.
As you can see, Gengar also has the possibility to get one or two kills per game. Infernape can do the same thing. This is no different than Latias. The only thing that may be different is that Latias can spam Surf or Draco meteor to net these kills, but there is a catch.
Spamming Draco Meteor is outright stupid. It can allow a Steel Sweeper (Jirachi, Lucario, Metagross) to come in and set up on you, or a Pursuit user (Scizor, Tyranitar) to come in and kill you. Sometimes, though, you may need Draco Meteor for a kill. This is another opportunity for a steel sweeper or Pursuit user to come in; a kill for a kill, and maybe more. The backlash of Draco Meteor is very dangerous.
Surf is the move most commonly used by Specs Latias users, from what I can infer. This is obviously much safer than Draco Meteor because Steel Types have a harder time setting up on you. But, one can’t help but wonder how safe it is. What if a Gyarados, CM Jirachi, Starmie, Suicune, Vaporeon, or Celebi came in?
Now comes the answers to the questions. Does Latias do anything normal wallbreakers don’t do? For me, the answer is no, Latias does nothing special. One or two kills a game is as much as Gengar or Infernape could get. Both Latias and Gengar are the targets of Pursuit users, and they would not stop using Pursuit (like some people seem to think) if Latias was removed simply because Gengar is that big of a threat.
As for the question, “Does Latias increase your chances of winning or getting a sweep?”, my answer remains no. Any strong Pokemon with a 1.5x boost to their attacking stat will obviously damage your team. Unfortunately, Latias is weak to Pursuit and cannot always switch in and out like CBTar or CBScizor can.
So, in my opinion, Latias is just another threat in the metagame. I don’t find it to be extremely overwhelming or extremely strong like some of you seem to, but that’s just me. I don’t know why it’s any more potent at opening up a sweep than Gengar is, and so I see no reason to ban Latias on a criterion that Gengar fills when it’s accepted as OU. Those are my thoughts on Latias, and I really would like someone to try and convince me otherwise.
I also agree that Salamence is much more threatening than Latias is.
I agree with most of what you say, except for the following points in your response to the general view on Latias:
- Defence does matter for a pokemons effectiveness as a sweeper. It's just not the defining feature that many make it out to be.
- I'm increasingly convinced that one turn of free setup is not significant enough to be a highly considered factor. Draco Meteor for a kill, and then switching out so the opponent can set up means very little, because with the possible exception of Mence, there are plenty of ways to counter most set-up pokemon WITH their turn of setup, and to remove those checks requires so much team support that it's really not one free turn after all. I don't think we should still be using "It gives one free turn of setup" as a bad tactical decision. It happens in every battle, often multiple times, and does not mean a guarantee win. There are enough checks and revenge killers available that the free turn is only a bit part.
- Your (3) is true, but the attacks Latias are using are more powerful than Gengar's.
I agree with most of what you say, except for the following points in your response to the general view on Latias:
- Defence does matter for a pokemons effectiveness as a sweeper. It's just not the defining feature that many make it out to be.
- I'm increasingly convinced that one turn of free setup is not significant enough to be a highly considered factor. Draco Meteor for a kill, and then switching out so the opponent can set up means very little, because with the possible exception of Mence, there are plenty of ways to counter most set-up pokemon WITH their turn of setup, and to remove those checks requires so much team support that it's really not one free turn after all. I don't think we should still be using "It gives one free turn of setup" as a bad tactical decision. It happens in every battle, often multiple times, and does not mean a guarantee win. There are enough checks and revenge killers available that the free turn is only a bit part.
- Your (3) is true, but the attacks Latias are using are more powerful than Gengar's.
You have no idea how much of a relief it was to see "I agree with most of what you say" after seeing you posted recently in this thread lol (after the Salamence thread, that is).
Well, Defense I honestly think doesn't matter. The only things I can think of are for switching in and for taking hits from priority or faster Pokemon. With most sweepers either boosting their speed or being fast already, I don't think taking hits really matters. As for switching in, I'd say you switch in on resisted attacks or attacks you're immune to if you're going to sweep, so that you have an easy time, but I guess Latias has that over other Pokemon. And Priority affects all of them, really. But honestly, I'd say Defenses are the least important thing a wall breaker / sweeper is looking for or worrying about. It's the offense prowess it has, in my opinion, that defines it.
Now as for your one free turn of set up, look at the Pokemon that can set up after Latias uses Draco Meteor. Lucario, Metagross, Empoleon, Jirachi, Tyranitar (possibly) and possibly others depending on the move. These guys are beasts and can really do damage to the opposing team. Even if they don't sweep, they are going to severely dent your team and Latias can't switch back in and threaten any of them, which is why I really think it's a big deal. The fact that Latias allows Pokemon it cannot stop to set up on it means it can be shut down with a sort of ease. That's how I see it, anyway. And the same really goes for other Pokemon, too. If they screw up they can really let a powerful Pokemon set up and go loose, which will hurt their team. Any choice Pokemon can make that mistake, and it isn't hard to do that.
And finally, Dragon Pulse only does 6% more to a Suicune, so Specs is barely more powerful than LO Gengar; their power is nearly identical. But yes, I do acknowledge that Latias can hit harder than Gengar. What I think is defining, though, is that once Latias uses it's most powerful move it's, for the most part, forced to go out, and it may not come back in during favorable circumstances like the ones it was in where it could fire off that attack, or it may have to be killed by Pursuit because it used it's most powerful attack.
Again, just my thoughts on them and MrIndigo I always love to hear from you :)
Defense matters a whole lot for a sweeper. That's why porygonz and alakazam are uu. The only thing that can really get away with it is gengar, because it's more than just a sweeper and has a bunch of immunities.
Niche that Latias has? What niche is that? The fastest dragon in OU?
Gengar is frail. I'm pretty sure everyone said that. Let me ask you, when was the last time you were looking at an offensive Pokemon and you went "Hey this thing is so frail it won't actually do it's job at all."? You didn't, probably. Gengar can deal over 50% to most Pokemon. Meaning it can OHKO or 2HKO most Pokemon. Crazy. Latias and Gengar do the same thing - they hit stuff for big damage totals.
You know what, let me do a little comparison on this "frail" concept. I assume everyone in this thread knows how much of an offensive beast Salamence is. But did you know how frail it is? Vaporeons Surf can do 25% to it, which, with SR in play, eliminates 50% before it even sets up if it switches in. That's right. A resisted attack coming off of the lowest neutral Sp.A stat Vaporeon has and it does 25%. So a base 71 power attack (after modifiers) from a 256 Attack Stat is doing 25% to Salamence, and in conjunction with SR is eliminating 50% of it's health. Pretty frail. So yeah, I don't think you compare how well off an offensive Pokemon is defensively to see which one is better, or else no one would use Salamence and everyone would use Dragonite.
Obviously you're a little lost. The niche I'm referring to is that Latias can come in multiple times. Whether it be a couple Fire Blasts from Heatran or Close Combats from Infernape, etc. Gengar can't do that unless its user predicts right and comes in on an immunity. Gengar's frailty is really what you are missing. Close to anything with a faster move than Gengar or that is not OHKOed by Gengar will KO it after Stealth Rock damage. It could just be me, but Latias can take a few attacks even after switching in. I'm not saying Gengar isn't a threat, but Latias's exceptional bulk allows it to last much longer than Gengar does and deal quite a bit more damage over those turns.
On a side note, in response to that Salamence vs. Dragonite comment. Salamence has Dragon Dance and base 100 speed which allows it to outspeed almost every Pokemon in OU that doesnt have a scarf. Dragonite's base 80 speed hardly compares and is revenged a lot easier.
Just wanted to point out that while Gengar has the great immunities (normal attacks aren't incredibly common either other than Extremespeed), Latias has the elemental resistances backed with the defenses to be able to switch in. This is something Gengar cannot do unless he predicts an immunity. The whole defense thing means that Latias is generally a safe switch in to a lot of threats and can threaten back with an immediate force, whereas Gengar just isn't as scary.
Don't get me wrong, Gengar is an amazing pokemon, but he does have counters (Blissey, Bronzong) and he is pretty weak to priority (Bullet Punch) and can be played around until he dies. Specs Latias doesn't have the recoil so she can keep attacking all day long, damaging everything severely in its path WITH JUST ONE ATTACK (Surf/ Draco Meteor). Not to mention she is one of the few special pokemon that can make Blissey useless. Gengar can trick too iirc but he loses to a lot more pokemon if he runs a trick set.
Latias' best set is very easily Choice Specs. When you think of common pokemon that switch in or counter Latias, a few come to mind. Tyranitar, Jirachi, Scizor, and Blissey. If these are the most common switch-ins, why would you use Draco Meteor? Easily the worst thing you can do with Specs Latias is to come in and start shooting off Draco Meteor's. Surf 2HKOes the general Tyranitar, and Scizor, and does enough to Jirachi that it should think twice about switching in. Even though it doesn't 2HKO, Latias doesn't need to worry about Pursuit, so it can easily switch out. Blissey can take attack after attack from Latias, but can't do anything back besides cripple it with paralysis or something similar. When you expect Blissey to switch in, use Trick. So, the two pokemon here who can actually kill off Latias easily is Scizor and Tyranitar. Latias can quite easily 2HKO each of them with Specs Surf. Jirachi can be fairly easily killed, and Blissey is severely with Trick.
You might say then just to use Sp Def Ttar and Scizor. The fact that this is done to take out a single pokemon shows just how powerful that pokemon is. In order to truly counter Latias, they both go out of their way to do so. By doing that, the lose a ton of effectiveness over other mons.
You need to explain your logic here. Latias' bulk and Dragon-typing is what makes her so threatening. Thats what makes it so easy to abuse her. You can switch in so many times on random Earthquakes, Fire-type moves, Electric-types, and so many others. You keep on bringing up Gengar as a comparison to Latias, and saying defense doesn't matter. There is no way that Gengar is taking a Heatran Fireblast, for example.
Thats what makes Latias so amazing. She can constantly switch in and out, easily taking attacks from mons like Heatran and Infernape and scout initial switch-ins with Surf, or once you know their aren't any pursuiters / steel-types, go ahead and launch the nuke known usually as Draco Meteor. Even then Draco Meteor is still doing a large amount to Scizor, 53.4% - 63% to be exact. Thats a ton of damage.
Obviously you're a little lost. The niche I'm referring to is that Latias can come in multiple times. Whether it be a couple Fire Blasts from Heatran or Close Combats from Infernape, etc. Gengar can't do that unless its user predicts right and comes in on an immunity. Gengar's frailty is really what you are missing. Close to anything with a faster move than Gengar or that is not OHKOed by Gengar will KO it after Stealth Rock damage. It could just be me, but Latias can take a few attacks even after switching in. I'm not saying Gengar isn't a threat, but Latias's exceptional bulk allows it to last much longer than Gengar does and deal quite a bit more damage over those turns.
On a side note, in response to that Salamence vs. Dragonite comment. Salamence has Dragon Dance and base 100 speed which allows it to outspeed almost every Pokemon in OU that doesnt have a scarf. Dragonite's base 80 speed hardly compares and is revenged a lot easier.
A ton of Choice users or sweepers can come in multiple times, and it's not something extremely well suited for anything. Latias takes ~27% from Heatran's Fire Blast when running 4/0. From Infernape's Close Combat, it takes ~36%. It isn't a defensive Latias like the ones you may be used to or even thinking of. With those numbers get up to nearly 50%, meaning you really cannot switch back in on them, especially with Sand being so prevalent. Too much damage is done to allow Latias to freely switch in and out.
Gengar and Latias have the same base speed. So anything faster than Latias (Starmie, Azelf, Weavile, Sceptile, Scarf Pokemon that threaten it) or Pokemon that aren't KOd by Latias (Water types / Grass types against Surf, Tyranitar / Ground Types against Tbolt, Steel types / Blissey vs Draco Meteor) will damage it, KO it, set up on it, or force it out.
So yes, it is just you (and the other people in this thread) who thinks that Latias can take a couple of hits after switching in. It can take one or two hits. I don't think one or two turns is enough time to deal such a substantial amount of damage that it's Uber.
On a side note, in between base 80 speed and base 100 speed, there are about six common scarfers, and 2 of them Salamence risks a speed tie with anyway. So yes, this is why speed is irrelevant, and I explained it in a different Salamence discussion thread and we do not need to delve into it.
And another person comments (and then another person) about Latias switching in, so apparently I'm going to need some calcs to back up my claims. Just curious, but how much have you guys used Specs Latias and switched it into things? Unless you're coming in on Defensive Pokemon (and you have said Offensive Pokemon, leading me to believe that you haven't used it) it's taking a huge chunk of it's HP and isn't going in and out multiple times.
Heatran: Fire Blast - ~27% ( 39% with SR)
Rotom-A: Thunderbolt - ~20% (32% with SR)
Gyarados: Non-boosted Waterfall - ~35% (47% with SR) [I wouldn't recommend switching in on a Gyarados though because after a boost...)
Swampert: Surf - 12% ( 24% with SR)
Infernape: Fire Blast - ~30% (42% with SR)
Gliscor: Can't do anything
Magnezone: ~22% (34% with SR)
Skarmory: It's not really attacking...
Vaporeon: Surf ~15% (27% with SR), but it can Protect to scout, then possibly wish + protect to force it out. [yes this happened to me fucking Vaporeon]
Suicune: Surf ~15% (27% with SR)
Breloom: Focus Punch ~50% (62% with SR)
Celebi: can't attack, but status hurts
Yeah, so, against those offensive beasts you guys listed Latias really isn't going to be able to switch in and out freely. Losing 39% to Heatran with SR, are you going to send it back in? Losing 42% to Infernape with SR, 34% to Magnezone - these are pretty big chunks. And with Tyranitar so prevalent, 6% can almost be assumed, adding even further to the damage it takes.
So from what I can see here with my own experience, Latias' defense really doesn't matter (like I've been saying). It still takes large chunks from even resisted moves and it can come in maybe once more. It can't switch in on a multitude of offensive Pokemon, and has trouble against a few defensive ones (Blissey and Celebi). Getting it in really isn't as easy as all of you are making it out to be. And what happens if they use -gasp- prediction? If it's so easy for you guys to assume Latias can predict around Blissey and friends, why can't it be just as easy for the opponent to predict Latias?
As for my comparison to Gengar, I'm comparing mostly offense, and I'll tell you right now it's defense is frail. But Defense doesn't matter so much when you're getting one or two chances to attack and do damage. Latias is getting one or two chances to attack or do damage, just like Gengar would. That's why I think it's fair to make a comparison. Both get one or two chances for the most part to attack. Latias doesn't get three or four or five or however many you guys seem to believe it gets.
DJX09 said:
Thats what makes Latias so amazing. She can constantly switch in and out, easily taking attacks from mons like Heatran and Infernape.
Yes, because Latias can just constantly go in and out taking 40% from each switch in, plus SR and possible sand with such ease! For those of you who are bad at math, 12% + 40% = 52%. Double that and you get 104%. Knock Out. That doesn't even factor Sand and how it could make it easier for weaker attacks to damage Latias further. I again state that the defense doesn't matter; Latias isn't switching in and out like you guys seem to believe. The normal switch-ins you get when you can Recover or you have a defensive spread don't happen anymore - you've got a whole different beast now.
Undisput3d, I read the post, but I'm not buying how it's Uber. Sure it's checks (not counters due to it not being a safe switch-in) are 2HKOd, but what's stopping Suicune, Celebi, Vaporeon, Blissey, or Gyarados from coming in on Surf? CB Tyranitar can beat Gliscor with Stone Edge, Scizor with Stone Edge, Infernape with Stone Edge. But not Machamp. It's the same concept here - Pokemon with a boost obviously can defeat their normal checks with ease because they are meant to check them without boosts. You could go through a bunch of powerful Pokemon with a 1.5x boost to their stat and they'll be able to 2HKO their normal checks because they have a boost. I can't think of how to end this but I want this to be in before someone quotes my post.
