np: Stage 3-4 - Wait why is this so familiar didn't I just go through this what did I

[NightmareZ]

So you are uber abuser. I've played you a couple of times phil. So I'm gonna say it's ou just so I can get more time to use it. I mean teambuilding is hard enough for me when I'm not stressed to build a team in a week.

S if the two ninja combos are manaphy and scarftar and sdluke and specslatias. So a team would be:

Lead
scizor
scarftar
crophy
specslatias
sdluke

I wanna try manaphy more so if it does get ou I'll be happy. (for a while) Anyway, so your uber abuser amazing i cant exactly remember our battles but I remember you winning a good portion of them.

NightmareZ

 

[haunter]

Good point on the utility of scarf Tar Phil, though TTar loses to specs Jolteon if it switches into SR, as it's 2hko'd by thunderbolt on average. We should also consider that scarf Tar gives many set up opportunities to things like Lucario and Infernape which can both beat Manaphy when at +2 Atk (and they both can carry a priority move to eliminate TTar at its 2nd switch in - I've been using both bullet punch Luke and mach puch Ape in this round of testing).

Also, Zapdos can scout for TTar with u-turn giving things like Skarmory a free switch in and hence a free layer of spikes. To get rid of scarf Tar I've been using Dugtrio on one of my teams with decent success.

Anyway, I'm still not sure that having to pack a Pokemon (TTar) to support a sweep with another one (Manaphy) can be considered "sweeping with little effort", as in my opinion TTar+Manaphy is just another extremely effective combination, like Salamence+Magnezone is.

I think that the metagame just needs to get used to face Manaphy, and then more ways to deal with it will come to light.

On a side note, I'm really disappointed that the test is already ending, but sadly the ladder is almost always empty :(

 

[shrang]

RainRest Manaphy is a threat, I do admit, but you have to realise until you show it at the very end (When its like 2-1 or 3-1, when ALL counters/checks have been eliminated, can it sweep) it's probably going to end up dead weight. Yes, all of the usual checks that Haunter wrote up earlier are beaten by ScarfTar, but RainRest Manaphy has so many more counters its not funny. Anything that resists Water that can set-up will royally scare the pants of CM-Mono Manaphy (Gyara, Kingdra, Mence, Latias, Celebi, the list goes on and on and on).

About this calc too:

Standard Dragon Dance Mence LO Outrage vs. Manaphy: 53.7% - 63.4%

What's to stop him from Outraging and forcing you to Rest until the Rain runs out?? If he's smart (and confusion doesn't come up too often), what's to stop him DDing again as you Rest off the damage?? CM-Mono Manaphy, requires too much support to be Uber in my opinion, as you not only have to knock off the usual Manaphy threats, but also bulky Dragons, Waters and Grass Pokemon.

 

[Mr.E]

The funny thing about Manaphy + Tyranitar being such an oh-so-potent duo is that T-Tar is actually the more dangerous pokémon of the two...

 

[jumpluff]

It was pretty annoying to face the same people like five times in a row on the ladder :P I was also hoping to ladder a lot more the rest of the weekend, but oh well. I hope I qualify, though!

Yup, that's exactly why the ladder sucked. I despise rematches and eventually it just becomes about 'lol who can anti-team'. Anyway, I agree with Phil. It's a very efficient late-game Pokémon. While I find Tail Glow more über because of its immediate damage and the fact that you can show it a bit earlier, Rain Rest Manaphy is impressive. Just because it requires team support and can only come out later doesn't mean it's not über @shrang.

 

[Destiny100]

I've been playing suspect, a few matches every now and again and I have my own opinions on Manaphy + Latias.

And this will sound very nooby, this is the first time I've played suspect, is there a link/thread that'll explain more about voting and what's required to vote? :)

But at the moment, I think Manaphy is Uber, I was using the same moveset as Phil, but Calm Nature + different Ev spread. As long as you take out most counters you'll be fine, and even with a few calm minds it's difficult to stop you ;). Latias, I'm still thinking OU. It's not difficult to deal with. Scarf Pursuit T-Tar. As long as you don't switch in on Specs Surf the Latias is as good as dead :).

Yeah I'm a noob :P I know

 

[SJCrew]

Obviously the player wasn't all that experienced, or was playing badly, or not thinking. A well EV trained Quagsire is 4HKO'd by Scarf Kyogre, which means if your Manaphy hasn't set up, he can just safely Encore whatever you're going to do (Since you're running Ice Beam). Things like Vaporeon can also Roar you out if you think you can Tail Glow, racking up some residual damage. Again, your Manaphy isn't uncounterable at all, quite the opposite. By EVing so much in defense, you're not going to outspeed many things either, so while you might kill something, that something is probably going to have dented you enough so something hard hitting is going to outspeed you and KO you later. Yes, I know revenge killing is not a good argument, the point is, Manaphy is not going to be sweeping a big portion of the opponent's team, and for what it is worth (3 turns is a lot of setup), it's probably not worth it either.

Rain/Rest Manaphy isn't very complicated and its counters are one-dimensional, easy to see coming, and very much beatable even if Manaphy decides to face them off. It's getting to the point where I don't even care if Specs Latias or a random Grass Pokemon comes in to try and stop it because Manaphy can rest off a Leaf Storm or Draco Meteor and keep setting up for the sweep.

Offensive Manaphy is a waste of time because there are plenty of things to kill it if you don't invest in its defenses. By investing in its defenses, you ensure that you can kill them before they kill you, which is the entire reason I believe it's Uber. A Pokemon that can snuff out most of its counters as easily as Rain Rest Manaphy shouldn't be allowed in standard play, period.

Someone can do something like Baton Pass speed to Marowak and let it sweep, but that doesn't make Marowak Uber by any means.

Weather affects both teams and the entire field of battle rather than a series of stat passes to a single Pokemon. From there, it's all Manaphy. If we're going to discount Rain Dance as a legitimate means of support, we might as well discount Stealth as well, as it has a similar impact to any given Pokemon's ability to sweep as Rain does for Manaphy.

If you outpredict a player and keep Manaphy alive (Note, your strategy is completely exposed, and Rain is getting burned up), that Manaphy is probably going to end up dead weight since Rain is either going to prevented, other Pokemon are going to set-up so even RainRest is garbage, or they can just predict a switch and kill Manaphy. If you outpredict the opponent in that sort of occasion, well done, you outplayed your opponent, Manaphy did not.

It doesn't matter who outplays who, it's about Manaphy getting rain support, which increases his sweeping ability two-fold by increasing his longevity and the power of his STAB, allowing him to survive almost anything thrown at him and hit back like a truck. If it's really that hard for you, then you just have bad strategy.

 

[eastamazonantidote]

What's to stop him from Outraging and forcing you to Rest until the Rain runs out?? If he's smart (and confusion doesn't come up too often), what's to stop him DDing again as you Rest off the damage??

If Salamence uses Outrage on you, you simply switch in a steel with 100% of your health. Sounds like a win to me. If he DDs, you just pound him with a Rain-boosted Surf, hitting standard DDMence for roughly 50% of his health (assuming you got a CM in).

 

[frogbandit]

Aren't we all aware of Scarf Tyranitar's effectiveness this Suspect Round?

Rain/Rest Manaphy isn't very complicated and its counters are one-dimensional, easy to see coming, and very much beatable even if Manaphy decides to face them off. It's getting to the point where I don't even care if Specs Latias or a random Grass Pokemon comes in to try and stop it because Manaphy can rest off a Leaf Storm or Draco Meteor and keep setting up for the sweep.

Offensive Manaphy is a waste of time because there are plenty of things to kill it if you don't invest in its defenses. By investing in its defenses, you ensure that you can kill them before they kill you, which is the entire reason I believe it's Uber. A Pokemon that can snuff out most of its counters as easily as Rain Rest Manaphy shouldn't be allowed in standard play, period.

The problem is that Manaphy is not that bulky. Specs Latias can Thunderbolt, knowing you're running a bulkier set and Leftovers. Even on the bulkiest of Manaphy sets, with 252 HP and 252 SpD EVs, Thunderbolt does roughly 60% damage. From there you have two options: fire back an Ice Beam for the kill, or Rest off the damage. Both cases make it easy for Manaphy to lose. Say you Ice Beam for the kill. You're left with about 40% HP left, meaning you are easy prey for something like Scarf Rotom-H or Scarf Magnezone. Even if you switch out, you can't take advantage of the rain anymore. If you decide to rest off the damage, Rain has only so many turns. It will be a stale-mate until Rain runs out, and Thunderbolt will still have enough PP to kill. Not you mention the times you may get paralyzed.

I think for these reasons Manaphy isn't very broken. Its more of something like Salamence or Scizor. It can take out a few pokemon and does warrant attention, but in the end it is still prone to revenge kills and checks.

 

[Cyrrona]

Definitely no disrespect to Phil, but after reviewing that log, I don't see how Crocune couldn't make the exact same sweep. It easily starts setting up on that -4 Leaf Storm the Manaphy came in on, takes even less damage from every attack the opponent uses (it's not even 3HKOd from that Mence's Dragon Claw if he's Adamant with near max-attack, and I'm assuming it isn't even that because he's got Draco Meteor in there to split the EVs), and can seemingly replicate the victory provided Sleep Talk doesn't consistently pick Rest for the entire match. In fact, I even recreated this whole battle with a friend running Suicune in place of Manaphy, and it swept just as effortlessly as the suspect did. I'm not denying that Crophy is a very potent threat--I'm just not convinced it's any more potent than Crocune. It's essentially trading off defenses and Pressure for full recovery tied with weather and more SAtk, but the recovery is quite exploitable and more SAtk doesn't matter much in the long run if the opponent can't penetrate your defenses anyway.

Additionally, the things that stop Crocune also typically stop Crophy--CM Latias, Perish Song Celebi, CM Wish Jirachi, Roar Vaporeon, all Trick users, Metagross with Explosion, etc. *EDIT: Bologo is right, Crocune actually beats some of this list thanks to Pressure.* It's not like there are significantly fewer counters for this set than there are for Crocune. I think they're entirely comparable, and as such, I do not believe we can rightfully consider one set Uber and the other OU.

 

[Bologo]

Just because it requires team support and can only come out later doesn't mean it's not über @shrang.

Under what characteristic would this be uber? It sure as hell wouldn't be offensive, because not only does it require lots of team support (rather than solely benefiting from it) due to having hard counters in the metagame, you also have to be very careful about when you bring it out, which requires lots of effort on the player's part. (this is only about RainRest Manaphy)

Additionally, the things that stop Crocune also typically stop Crophy--CM Latias, Perish Song Celebi, CM Wish Jirachi, Roar Vaporeon, all Trick users, Metagross with Explosion, etc. It's not like there are significantly fewer counters for this set than there are for Crocune. I think they're entirely comparable, and as such, I do not believe we can rightfully consider one set Uber and the other OU.

Crocune actually has a very good chance of beating CM Latias and CM Wish Jirachi as well, because of Pressure severely limiting the amount of times they can attack. If they're stuck in a CM war with Jirachi, they're going to be trying to force a crit, which may very well blow up in their face.

 

[Quaily]

If scarftar is guaranteed to wipe out a whole list of threats maybe it's the uber one, not manaphy. Say I have an offensive zapdos. I switch into manaphy, and you switch to scarftar. To ko my zapdos you need to stone edge since a scarf persuit is weak as shit on zapdos and won't ko. I'm not going to sit there and let my zapdos get killed by scarftar, I'm going to bring in lucario with its 4x rock resist and set up on scarftar, leaving you in a bad position with my zapdos still alive.

 

[frogbandit]

Quaily, your example just killed your point. (not sure if that was sarcasm) Scarftar does check a lot of things, but its easy enough to just switch out if you resist pursuit into a set-up sweeper like Lucario. And if Scarftar does Pursuit against your Pursuit-weak Pokemon... is that broken? Thats like saying, is CB Scizor or CB Tar broken? Hardly.

 

[capefeather]

So I'm gonna say it's ou just so I can get more time to use it.

Considering the early end of this test, I suspect (pun not intended) that this is going to be the last test of Stage 3 unless there a REALLY close vote or something.

If we're considering "uncommon" Manaphy sets, I don't quite see why we're looking at "common" Manaphy counters and calling it a day. I also think that we should stop using the term "RainRest" because SJCrew and Philip are talking about two completely different sets.

 

[NightmareZ]

Considering the early end of this test, I suspect (pun not intended) that this is going to be the last test of Stage 3 unless there a REALLY close vote or something.

If we're considering "uncommon" Manaphy sets, I don't quite see why we're looking at "common" Manaphy counters and calling it a day. I also think that we should stop using the term "RainRest" because SJCrew and Philip are talking about two completely different sets.

I meant use it in ou.

Anyway, about the latias tbolt
manaphy uses CM, opponent switch's in latias.
manahy uses rain dance, opponent trys to ko with tbolt, u lose 45%
manaphy uses rest after latias just misses the ko with tbolt
tbolt, then you CM again
tbolt and you rest
tbolt and you CM

you can see where this is going can't you

NightmareZ

 

[Mr.E]

It's going until you get crit ten turns down the road because you got greedy instead of switching out like you should have done in the first place.

 

[Kir]

The funny thing about Manaphy + Tyranitar being such an oh-so-potent duo is that T-Tar is actually the more dangerous pokémon of the two...

In my opinion, it's a shame this point hasn't been discussed more. As noted many times earlier in the thread, ScarfTar + Manaphy is a deadly combination because ScarfTar removes essentially all of Manaphy's checks. That said, I want to pose a question. If the problem with Manaphy is that it can sweep easily with the support of ScarfTar, does that make Manaphy uber under the offensive characteristic, or does it make Tyranitar uber under the support characteristic? I realize the suspects of this test are Manaphy and Latias, but I feel this is an important philosophical question we need to answer as a community. For reference, the support characteristic:

"A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep."

and the offensive characteristic:

"A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort."

Note that I'm not necessarily claiming either of these pokemon are uber--simply posing an interesting and relatively unexplored question.

 

[Staraptor Call]

Scarftar is not uber. The Support Characteristic has the key "consistently," and if Scarftar is relying on a prediction war with Latias as to whether it should Crunch or Pursuit, that is not consistent enough to fit the Support Characteristic. Also, since it is a Choiced Pokemon, and not a particularly powerful one either, Scarftar gives the opponent many free turns with which to set up for a sweep or start attacking. That free turn for your opponent makes it more difficult to start a sweep with Manaphy, because you need some opening to get Manaphy in safely and get a free turn. And this is assuming that you have eliminated your opponent's Manaphy counter in the first place. Scarftar is not consistent enough to fall under the Support Characteristic.

 

[shrang]

I meant use it in ou.

Anyway, about the latias tbolt
manaphy uses CM, opponent switch's in latias.
manahy uses rain dance, opponent trys to ko with tbolt, u lose 45%
manaphy uses rest after latias just misses the ko with tbolt
tbolt, then you CM again
tbolt and you rest
tbolt and you CM

you can see where this is going can't you

NightmareZ

The cycle would have stopped on the bold line, when your opponent switches to ScarfTar and force you to sleep for two turns or take a Surf (heavily, but he'll survive a +1 Surf in Sandstorm with around 30% left). NightmareZ, I'm aware you respect Phil, and so do I, but do not just go "Oh Phil think's it's Uber, so it has to be", make up your own mind from your own experiences.

Oh, and to the people who go "Manaphy can just switch out and kill you again later", that pretty much mean he has been countered or checked. The definition of a counter is one which can switch into the designated Pokemon and force it out. Saying Manaphy can switch out of +1 Outrage means he lost that encounter. If this logic continues, we can pretty much deem every powerful Choice Bander as an Uber, because they could just switch in and kill something provided they predict correctly. Let's just use a ridiculous example, Slaking. Choice Band Slaking, if predicted correctly, can pretty much OHKO a massive proportion of the metagame. In the ideal world, he can switch in, OHKO something, switch back out, come back later, OHKO something else. At the moment, he is NU, not even OU material, because he is garbage. CB Dragonite is another great example, able to 2HKO pretty much the entire metagame provided you predict correctly, but Dragonite isn't Uber by any means.

Anyway, back to the test, I am very surprised next to no-one has mentioned Shaymin as a Manaphy check. If running Specs, it speed-ties with Timid 252 Manaphy. Seed Flare threatens to OHKO all unboosted Manaphy that hasn't got a Calm Mind in, and even if it has, it can keep Seed Flaring RainResting Manaphy until a Special Defense drop, in which it will OHKO next turn. It 2HKOs Phil's Manaphy at +2, so if Seed Flare misses, he still won't be able to set up, not to mention that Special Defense drop.

It is rather a shame that the test ended early, though. I was about to test the counter to ALL Manaphys (Ok, maybe apart from physical Manaphys, which are lol), and that would be Calm Mind Blissey!!

 

[Erazor]

For all of you who say that Rain Rest Manaphy isn't broken because "The cycle would have stopped on the bold line, when your opponent switches to ScarfTar and force you to sleep for two turns or take a Surf (heavily, but he'll survive a +1 Surf in Sandstorm with around 30% left)"

What if you DON'T have ScarfTar? Then what? You're going to have situations like Phil's quite often.

 

[haunter]

Anyway, back to the test, I am very surprised next to no-one has mentioned Shaymin as a Manaphy check. If running Specs, it speed-ties with Timid 252 Manaphy. Seed Flare threatens to OHKO all unboosted Manaphy that hasn't got a Calm Mind in, and even if it has, it can keep Seed Flaring RainResting Manaphy until a Special Defense drop, in which it will OHKO next turn. It 2HKOs Phil's Manaphy at +2, so if Seed Flare misses, he still won't be able to set up, not to mention that Special Defense drop.

the problem with Pokemon like offensive Shaymin, Zapdos or Celebi is that, despite being able to ohko Manaphy even after it has a CM under its belt, they need to win a possible speed tie, which makes them counters or checks just 50% of the time, since a +2 ice beam will always ohko them.

For all of you who say that Rain Rest Manaphy isn't broken because "The cycle would have stopped on the bold line, when your opponent switches to ScarfTar and force you to sleep for two turns or take a Surf (heavily, but he'll survive a +1 Surf in Sandstorm with around 30% left)"

What if you DON'T have ScarfTar? Then what? You're going to have situations like Phil's quite often.

to be honest, in this situation it's more like you lacking an answer to rain dance Pokemon in general. With the rain up and one turn of set up SD Kabutops or DD Kingdra are as deadly as Manaphy is, if not more. Having a weather changer in the current metagame, be it Tyranitar, Hippowdon or Abomasnow, is often an insurance against opposing weather teams.

 

[shrang]

For all of you who say that Rain Rest Manaphy isn't broken because "The cycle would have stopped on the bold line, when your opponent switches to ScarfTar and force you to sleep for two turns or take a Surf (heavily, but he'll survive a +1 Surf in Sandstorm with around 30% left)"

What if you DON'T have ScarfTar? Then what? You're going to have situations like Phil's quite often.

There are plenty of Pokemon that can switch in and at least force that Manaphy into an unwinnable position (Or at least without a crit anyway). Vaporeon, Suicune, CM Latias, CM Wish Jirachi, CM Blissey, CM Celebi (Don't mention ScarfTar knocking some of them off, if you switch out Manaphy, it means Manaphy has been countered, see my previous post) are all perfectly good Pokemon that can just Calm Mind alongside Manaphy and smack it down eventually. Tyranitar was just one example (The first one that came to my head, really). Other ways include Taunt, Trick, phazing, etc. CM-Mono Manaphy like I said before, is a threat, but only deep in the late-game when you've deleted ALL his counters.

 

[SJCrew]

Thunderbolt does roughly 60% damage.

Wrong. The calc for Specs Latias's Tbolt is 49.5% - 58.4%.

With Leftovers recovery, that doesn't break half most of the time. It comes in on my Tail Glow, hits me with Tbolt, I Rest, Tail Glow, then Ice Beam back. OHKOing Manaphy will require specs Roserade or Raikou, otherwise, I either set up on you or kill you. Even if it takes a lot of damage, it can come back in the match against a wall or something and Rest for another go.

What's funny about all of this is that most of the opponents I've faced so far use Draco Meteor right away, either expecting a switch, or for my spread not to run Sp. Def, so I just set up for free. Since Manaphy won't be getting OHKOed any time soon, every time I set up just gives me another free kill. There are a shitload of Pokemon in OU that can take advantage of that and sweep unhindered. If anything, Manaphy could probably run for Ubers under both Support AND Offense.

Oh, and to the people who go "Manaphy can just switch out and kill you again later", that pretty much mean he has been countered or checked.

No, it means I got a free kill and I'm not going to stay in like a dumbass and let Manaphy die when I could be getting more of them. Deoxys-A getting revenged by Scizor's Bullet Punch, Lucario's Extremespeed, or even Azumarill's Aqua Jet doesn't make it any less Uber, it just restricts the variety of the competitive metagame to a few compulsory team members.

It's fine with me if you want the OU metagame to consist of Raikou, Latias, Tyranitar, and 3 fillers, but once people start discovering Rain/Rest Manaphy, it'll get its ass Garchomped right back into Ubers.

 

[LoveDensity]

There are plenty of Pokemon that can switch in and at least force that Manaphy into an unwinnable position (Or at least without a crit anyway). Vaporeon, Suicune, CM Latias, CM Wish Jirachi, CM Blissey, CM Celebi (Don't mention ScarfTar knocking some of them off, if you switch out Manaphy, it means Manaphy has been countered, see my previous post) are all perfectly good Pokemon that can just Calm Mind alongside Manaphy and smack it down eventually.

Why are you mentioning some of those Pokemon? Yes, CroCune is the best counter to RainRest Manaphy and CM Wish Jirachi is a good check, but the standard CM Wish T-Bolt only does 30-36% to Manaphy. Sure, in theory and a haxless game, Jirachi would win because it forces more pressure than Manaphy. But hax happens more often than not and in the end its all about who gets that first crit to seal it. Edit: Speed wars would kinda suck, too, but I don't really wanna get into that unless I have to. Vaporeon is a good counter, too, but its nothing that toxic or toxic spikes can't solve. I won't even mention CM Latias in the counter/check discussion because if it is banned, you just lost Specs/CM Latias as a check. Also, who the fuck uses CM Bliss, gimmicky as hell and you are better off running its standard support/wall sets in the long run. CM Celebi is barely seen and I don't see it rising anytime soon even if Manaphy is OU.

I have a little doubt about how effective RainRest Manaphy can be as well. I don't even think its the best set, but is almost on-par with those tail glow sets. I have used it in stage 3-2 to the point where it was winning most of my matches. But in 3-4, I barely used it because of the lack of ppl participating late in the suspect ladder. I have seen people like Phillip7086 the Astronaut use it against me and it is unbelievable how they able to get rid of my checks/counters to Manaphy so easily. Sure, maybe I shoulda added another check to my team that already has the whole team attempting to stop the nasty assault of latias, manaphy, and mence. But hell, adding another check has just made my team a whole lot weaker vs other Pokemon. Am I centralizing my team too much on latias, manaphy, and mence? No, because that how the game is, Latias, Manaphy, and Salamence has so much of a powerful impact that I am forced to limit my options to beat those Pokemon and most of the rest of OU.

I kinda want to relate OU centralization to monopolies that are dangerous, but I don't wanna get into it.

The problem with OU is that we just keep adding threats to the game that was already pretty balanced and competitively diverse post-garchomp and pre-latias era. Shit, I saw my teambuilding options become limited after latias was introduced into OU and even more so when Manaphy became a suspect. Fuck, I know post-latias made my competitive spirit at its all time low. Hey this is just my opinion and experience. People experience different things at different times that affect their views. Although I sound like I am stating that Latias and Manaphy are Uber, I am still open to you guys' opinion of Latias for OU or Manaphy for OU. But so far, you pro-Manaphy/Latias haven't convinced me.

 

[Bologo]

No, because that how the game is, Latias, Manaphy, and Salamence has so much of a powerful impact that I am forced to limit my options to beat those Pokemon and most of the rest of OU.

You're fooling yourself if you think this is true. The usage of the suspects is obviously going to go down a lot if they're put into the OU ladder. I took the liberty of looking at the old Latias suspect thread (before it was even introduced to OU). People were concerned that it would cause this kind of thing to happen if it were introduced into the OU ladder (ie. everyone trying to counter the Dragons and being weak to everything else), but it obviously didn't. In fact, it seems debatable as to whether Salamence or Latias is the best Dragon in OU, because their usage is constantly switching.

On another note, if you take a look at the old Latias suspect thread, you will see that Specs was the highlight of that ladder as well. However, people were able to deal with it just fine, so I'm not understanding how some people were having such trouble with it this time around.

Shit, I saw my teambuilding options become limited after latias was introduced into OU and even more so when Manaphy became a suspect.

Are you serious? Latias is one of the easiest pokemon to fit on a team, though maybe not as easy as Heatran. This opens up teambuilding options, because suddenly it becomes a lot easier to run a stall team (defensive Latias), offensive team (CM or Choiced), and even balanced (Wisher, CM, phazer, Specs, Scarf, etc.). Latias can fit on any kind of team, and as long as you're not trying to dedicate your entire team to counter it, which in my experience is not necessary, it should make teambuilding a lot easier, not limit options.