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NU Discussion Thread (Mark II)

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unless linoone is running rock smash, aggron stops it pretty well

scarf haunter stops it

tauros can intimidate and switch to dusclops to avoid e-speed, lowering attack by 1 and wasting 2 of e-speeds 8 PP, then switch tauros in for another intimidate, at this point dusknoir survives shadow claw (I think) with max/max and can will-o-wisp but thats a last resort

generally, it is hard for linnone to set up, and the secret is, even if a memento is used, still attack, because hopefully, even at -6, you can do enough for one or two priorities to kill it

god damn, generation 5 better bring us some ghost/normal pokes to stop rock smash+e-speed+shadow claw

Aggron's UU, so it dosen't count.

Tauros' Intimidate Stratagy means you have a sacrifice something to bring it in, unless you're alternateing between something like Dusclops [E-Speed] to Tauros [Shadow Claw], and your foe dosen't get wise after the first cycle, and use the move that will OHKO/near OHKO.

Priority needs to come from somthing faster than Linoone.
 
lol at outspeeding a +1 linnone. The real way to stop linoone is to not let it set up. Almost everything in the tier can take off 50% of linoones health or paralyse/burn/phase it, so while its still a big risk to any team, its risk is often higher than the reward.
 
Is Sunny Day as good as Rain Dance in NU? Just wondering because a lot of the abusers of Sunny Day reside in this tier, unlike rain dance.
 
IMO Sunny Day is just as good as Rain Dance in any other tier. Yes, straight offensively, they aren't as good, but they can be so much more diverse than Rain teams that you can pretty do whatever you want with it.
 
Sun teams have many potential abusers such as shiftry and exeggutor. It also has the high powered fire types such as charizard, magmortar and typhlosion that would love the boost.

However all rain has going for it is gorrebyss and a few electrics gaining a more powerful stab (thunder). So imo sun is a far more versatile and effective strategy.
 
sunny day works well with this tier... works well in uu and nu (works horribly in ou ime)

all the fire types + shiftry, exeggutor, victrebell + jumpluff = sunny day fun
 
Yeah, but Jumpluff doesn't really have the stats to abuse sun, Fire-types get walled by Slowking as most can't even 2HKO with un-STABbed SolarBeam and so many of the Grass-types are slow and have a massive Bug-weakness that stuff like Choice Scarf Primeape can exploit.

Plus powerful priority is everywhere with stuff like Sucker Punch Skuntank around.

Rain is pretty good, but the sweepers you have to pick from are not as good as in UU - no Kabutops, no Qwilfish, no Ludicolo: Gorebyss/Floatzel/Relicanth/Huntail.

If anyone is looking for a Linoone check, try Sucker Punch Golem. Shuckle isn't 2HKOd, either, and can Toxic it. Stacking Intimidate also works. Most Linoone run Adamant, so +Spe Choice Scarf Haunter also works. But, basically, you shouldn't let it set up. Skuntank is great at ruining Screens + Set-Up plans, as it can Taunt, threaten Gardevoir with Pursuit, and Explode to put a dent in a lot of stuff (Linoone) even at -2 (Memento) and behind Reflect.
 
Rain is pretty good, but the sweepers you have to pick from are not as good as in UU - no Kabutops, no Qwilfish, no Ludicolo: Gorebyss/Floatzel/Relicanth/Huntail.

IIRC, Seaking is actually a pretty good Rain sweeper, especially with Megahorn which has the ability to severely injure Slowking - something that the other NU Rain sweepers can't really do. I guess he's not walled by Shedinja either if you use Peck as a 4th move filler since Seaking's movepool isn't exactly huge anyway. Relicanth would be able to if he was carrying Head Smash, but it seems like a bad idea to run it with Swift Swim since Head Smash recoil is huge compared to other recoil moves. It's too bad Mantine has a garbage offensive movepool, since he could potentially pull it off too.
 
Relicanth can use Swift Swim with Head Smash. Due to the Double Speed, Decent Defensive Stats, and Double STAB on Waterfall, Relicanth does't rely on it almost as much, so cn actually get away with the odd Head Smash before it's death. Bear in mind, unlike usually, Relicanth won't be taking an attack after firing off a Head Smash. I was even using Life Orb on a Swift Swim Relincanth, and it literally decimated anything it touched, and still managed to get 2 of 3 KO's.

I think if UU finds Damp Rock 'Uber', then NU should do a suspect test for Damp Rock as well. With hardly anything that can wall Rain Dance sweepers [Slowking dislikes Head Smashes and Crunches from Floatzel, Lapras dies to Head Smash] I feel, like UU, it might need a test.

Anyway, changing the subject, I've been toying with Sun again, like way at the start of NU. It's a mixed bag. Leafeon's departure makes Grass Attacks so much more useful. However, Scarfmortar running around makes using Grass-types harder.

As a result, my current Sun team [Which isn't doing that well right now, it's still in refinement], has a couple of pokemon at the start who set up, and remove common Fire/Grass counters. Then, suddenly, out comes Jumpluff, who Sleep Powders/Encores, before setting up Sunny Day, and following with Momento... to none other than DD Charizard. Belive me when I say this... + 1 Fire Punch in the Sun hurts like anything. Unfortunetly, it always seems to die to priority. Stupid Skuntanks.
 
The problem with Rain in NU is that Miltank walls all of the physical sweepers, and Slowking walls all of the special sweepers - you get worn down with your Life Orb while they both pack recovery, and you're especially screwed if they carry T-Wave.

With boosted STAB Waterfall, Relicanth won't really need to use Head Smash unless your opponent's pokemon resists Water - most teams don't carry multiple Water resists, as most rely on Slowking or Quagsire (which you're better off switching out on anyway). Relicanth is best used to soften your opponent's team up so that your other sweepers can finish things off - either they don't bring in their Rain counter and lose so much of their team that you can wear down and kill it when it does come in, or they do, and Relicanth mauls it.
 
I don't really play NU, but I couldn't find another place to ask why Manectric is NU. Now that he has Switcheroo in HG/SS he rounds out his Choice sets with a way to screw Pokemon that would normally wall him. On certain OU teams he could be a better option than Jolteon because of his access to Flamethrower/Overheat and Switcheroo. Why isn't that even mentioned on his analysis? Am I missing something?
 
I don't really play NU, but I couldn't find another place to ask why Manectric is NU. Now that he has Switcheroo in HG/SS he rounds out his Choice sets with a way to screw Pokemon that would normally wall him. On certain OU teams he could be a better option than Jolteon because of his access to Flamethrower/Overheat and Switcheroo. Why isn't that even mentioned on his analysis? Am I missing something?

What makes it into NU is based on usage, so I think the question you're asking is why Manectric doesn't get used so much in OU and UU.

I think it's mainly because there's sometimes something that does its job better than it in the higher tiers.
 
Manetric is NU because very few people use it anywhere else. Down here in NU its an amazing pokemon capable of 2KO regice with a specs overheat, but up above, it just can't get the love. If you can make it work elsewhere then by all means use it. (plus you get serious cool points for using Electrifido) Its just generally considered outclassed by Jolteon and walled by pretty much all pink blobs (blissey/chansey/lickilicky) though they all hate choice items.
EDIT:ninja'd XD
 
I don't really play NU, but I couldn't find another place to ask why Manectric is NU. Now that he has Switcheroo in HG/SS he rounds out his Choice sets with a way to screw Pokemon that would normally wall him. On certain OU teams he could be a better option than Jolteon because of his access to Flamethrower/Overheat and Switcheroo. Why isn't that even mentioned on his analysis? Am I missing something?

Raikou outclasses it in basically every aspect, Flamethrower/Overheat/Switcheroo gives it a cool niche as an Electric but really not enough for people to use it often. As for OU, UU is the only tier that affects what Pokemon go to NU, and even then Jolteon outclasses it. Switcheroo isn't mentioned in the analysis because it hasn't been updated sign HG/SS.

Anyway after reading the NU update article in Smog 7, I'm wondering what is meant by all the talk that the tier is quickly increasing popularity. Is this just general interest due to the tournament or is the ladder on CAP actually being used a lot more? I've been wanting to get into NU for ages but the lower userbase on the server doesn't really encourage me :(
 
I agree that on the weekdays its tough to find matches, but we all come out in full force on Saturday and Sunday. At Project NU, we are developing a Project NU league, which would essentially be a round robin tournament where you play everyone when you both have the time.
Also, popularity is rising because there is certainly more NU presence on the CAP server, (especially on weekends) and we have gained approximately 20 memeber in the last six weeks. (on the Project NU forum)
Project NU
This is the NU version of Smogon. We discuss Suspects, build speed tiers (and threat lists, though not quite so comprehensive as this one) and are currently researching Spike Stacking Offense with a Community create a team. If you want to get involved in NU, this is the place to be.
 
Raikou outclasses it in basically every aspect, Flamethrower/Overheat/Switcheroo gives it a cool niche as an Electric but really not enough for people to use it often. As for OU, UU is the only tier that affects what Pokemon go to NU, and even then Jolteon outclasses it. Switcheroo isn't mentioned in the analysis because it hasn't been updated sign HG/SS.

Anyway after reading the NU update article in Smog 7, I'm wondering what is meant by all the talk that the tier is quickly increasing popularity. Is this just general interest due to the tournament or is the ladder on CAP actually being used a lot more? I've been wanting to get into NU for ages but the lower userbase on the server doesn't really encourage me :(

The userbase is small at the moment, but the fact that people aren't playing NU for that reason is the main factor behind that. Try it out - there's almost someone on. I try to spend at least an hour (often more) on each evening and am active at weekends, and several others follow similar patterns. It might not have the usage the UU ladder on Smogon gets, but it is growing in popularity and at times you don't even notice the difference.

My team at the moment is:

Medicham @ Life Orb
Adamant (+Atk, -SpA)
Pure Power
252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spe
Fake Out
Hi Jump Kick
ThunderPunch
Zen Headbutt

Primeape @ Choice Scarf
Adamant (+Atk, -SpA)
Vital Spirit
252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spe
Close Combat
Ice Punch
Stone Edge
U-Turn

Skuntank @ Life Orb
Adamant (+Atk, -SpA)
Aftermath
252 Atk/4 SpD/252 Spe
Pursuit
Sucker Punch
Taunt
Explosion

Miltank @ Leftovers
Impish (+Def, -SpA)
Scrappy
252 HP/248 Def/8 Spe
Body Slam
Heal Bell
Milk Drink
Stealth Rock

Slowking @ Leftovers
Calm (+SpD, -Atk)
Own Tempo
252 HP/52 SpA/200 SpD
Surf
Grass Knot
Slack Off
Toxic / Thunder Wave

Espeon @ Choice Specs
Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
Synchronise
4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
Psychic
Hidden Power (Ground)
Signal Beam
Baton Pass
 
Hi. As evidenced by my post count, I'm pretty new to these forums (though I've been lurking for a while). I'm also pretty new to NU.

Anyways, I was wondering what the status on Meganium is. It seems to me that it's the only bulky Grass type left in the tier (barring the odd Bellossom). It's stats are pretty solid (80/100/100 defenses are nothing to scoff at) and it gets a pretty good set of support moves (Reflect, Light Screen, Grasswhistle, Leech Seed, the almost universal Toxic, Aromatherapy, Synthesis, etc).

Offensively, it can run a decent Swords Dance set (SD, Substitute, Seed Bomb, Earthquake, Outrage, Body Slam, Return and Flail are all moves it's got access to) but yet she doesn't seem to be very popular. Am I missing something? Are all the Fire, Flying and Bug types on the tier limiting it's use? Would she do better in UU (even though Tangrowth and Leafeon outclass it as Bulky Grass types there)?
 
Meganium is basically outclassed by a lot of other stuff, depending on what role you want to use it in. Specialised walls like Miltank and Slowking shut attacks down better, Curse Miltank is arguably superior to SD Meganium (as are, in a more aggressive capacity, sweepers like Pinsir) and Dual Screeners are outclassed by Gardevoir (which gets Memento and Will-o-Wisp) and Jumpluff (Memento and Sleep Powder).

The fact that there are so many Magmortar/Typhlosion/Charizard around doesn't do it any favours either, since all three are faster. You REALLY don't want to give Charizard a turn to set up DD/SD/BD, LO Magmortar kills something if it gets in on anything slower and Typhlosion can be dangerous as well if you don't have really good switch-ins.
 
Meganium is a good pokemon, and is definitely usable in the NU tier, it just has a lot of competition for bulky grass types. Its definitely better off since leafeon left, (it was basically an even defense leafeon without the attack or speed) but it still has a lot of competition. For the role of bulky grass type, it has to fight with Vileplume and Cradily, both of whom have certain advantages over the mono-grass type. Vileplume's poison typing eliminates a lot of its weaknesses, though it gives it trouble with some Slowking, most consider it a better typing. Vileplume gets Sleep powder over grasswhistle, (I hate 55%s...) but misses out on LS and reflect. Serebii says that it also misses out on leech seed, but I've seen sub-seeding Vileplume on shoddy so I know it can use it. They also share Aromatherapy, which is not as widespread as you might think. Lastly, their actual stats. Meganium is what you might call perfectly balanced. It's defensive stats are exactly balance, and its offenses are 2 points apart, given same EV's and IV's. It even has exactly the same speed as HP (I always considered those a pair 'cause of how everything else paired up. Vileplume, on the other hand, trades some of its bulk (especially physical) and a lot of speed for a 40-point special attack advantage. Really, these two come down to what you want in your grass type: a full on supporter, or a bulky tank that can dish out hits too?
Cradily, on the other hand, is another matter altogether. Grass is actually its secondary typing, so its more of a rock pokemon in the first place. That is probably why this thing lacks aromatherapy, but it makes up for it with bulkier stats than Meganium and a whole hoard of boosting moves. Also, its typing is fairly subpar, a mere two resists combined with 4 weaknesses, the main problem being the fighting one. This thing has a huge set of support moves, but almost none of them can be used to support the team. It gets recover, which is generally a better move than synthesis, especially in the sandstorm, Mirror Coat, ingrain, and every non-speciall boosting move on the planet. It's got Amnesia, Stockpile, Rock Polish, Swords Dance, Barrier, and Curse. the most useful ones are Stockpile (for a full out stalling set) SD (for immediate offense) and curse(used in the sandstorm, this thing is nearly unkillable. Not to mention it dishes out damage like Rhyperior, firing off SE and EQs left and right) Really, if your in the market for a supporter, Meganium's your girl, but if you want a boosting tank, go with the fossil.
On the offensive side, Meganium is outclasses more soundly. Victreebel uses SD as well, and Eggxecutor hits hard right off the bat, even though they both need Sunny Day to function at full capacity. Shiftry is basically a more offensive Meganium with SD, a much improved physical movepool, EXPLOSION, and even Leafstorm for an odd mixed set. Then there's Cacturne. Don't even get me started on Cacturne. Go get Luphrous, he loves Cacturne. Cacturne has an insanely high risk high yield set called sub-punch-punch. It involves sub, sucker punch, f(not for falcon)punch, and generally seed bomb, but you could make that SD if you were a raving madman. Basically, Cacturne is almost the pinnacle of offensive grass types, but he needs speed and has no way to get it, so he relies on substitute and Sand veil hax. With good prediction, this guy can sweep like never before, but you gotta be really, really good at predicting attacks if you're gonna use him.
Basically, if you want an offensive grass type use Shiftry. If you want a tank, use Vileplume. If you want a boosting tank, use Cradily. If you want an out and out supporter, use Meganium.
EDIT:Ninja'd by Ice-eyes. Not really surprising, considering how long it took me to write. Very good point, though. since the loss of Leafeon, we gained three superpowered fire-types, which basically but a lid on any grass-type attempts at taking Leafeon's place.
 
Apparently, a movie Entei is going to have acess to Flare Blitz.

This could make Entei a much more potent threat in NU, and possibly even spur it to move to UU, now it's decent attack stat actually has something to use it with.
 
I honestly use Cradily in OU. Yeah, I have a Ninjask on my team, but all it manages to do usually is pass some speed (which only helps in setting up Curse faster).

I don't remember the EVs off the top of my head since they're scattered (but calculated carefully), but the set is @Leftovers, Rock Slide / Curse / Recover / Earthquake. Due to the abundance of Tyranitar and Hippowdon, Cradily loves OU. You just have to use it carefully. It trumps all PHazers with its Suction Cups, so you have to down it to remove its Curses (nobody uses Haze in OU). I have swept entire teams with this beast. It's definitely nothing to laugh at, and the Curses basically make it not even care about Infernape or Lucario (he can just tank the Close Combat and throw off an EQ). I also try to bait Thunder Waves and send in Cradily to take it, rendering it immune to status effects it actually cares about.

I just wanted to throw that out there. Oh, and you can run Seed Bomb for mindgames against various Water, Ground, and Rocks, but you lose a crucial coverage (Lucario + Skarmory).
 
Curse Cradily is REALLY annoying to take down in Sand.

Flare Blitz Entei? Sick. I hope Flareon gets Flare Blitz as well in Gen V. Tei will probably go up to UU if it gets Flare Blitz, or become one of the biggest threats in NU if it doesn't.

Like we need more offensive Fire-types.
 
Flare Blitz Entei? Sick. I hope Flareon gets Flare Blitz as well in Gen V.

I'm hoping not. Considering Flareon's low HP, I think it'll do more harm to the fox-thing than good. If anything, Flareon should be hoping for a STAB Physical Priority move or somethin'.
 
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