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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head

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Who can take attacks from Heracross?

Not even Weezing can keep up with some Heracross here and there (namely Flame Orb Hera). Dusclops?
Even worse is the fact Hera resists 2 of the most used priorities in UU(Sucker Punch and Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave) and Hera has enough speed to work properly on UU.

Bulky grasses and waters can't beat Hera (grasses are brutally murdered by Megahorn).
And Guts... oh Guts...

So, i don't mind Tentacruel dropping (even if that means another damn bulky water here. Poor Blastoise, could be pushed to NU)... but please, no Heracross.

PS: Heracross would make an evil duo with Houndoom. Registeel would cry if that thing could.
 
I wish we could just override the system and steal Tentacruel, as much as it wouldn't make sense in a tier based system. He'd be just what I need in so many ways...

Heracross, on the other hand... remind me to cancel my internet for a month if he ever drops down. It's funny you mention Weezing and Dusclops, since they were both used to wall him on some level last gen... though Hera has done a lot better this gen than either of them have (well, ignoring the latter's evolution). Of course, ADV also had Intimidate Gyara and Mence wandering around...
 
if Hera drops down, Arcanine is gonna be all over the place because it is the probably the only poke even coming close to checking Hera. Both Weezing and Dusclops can't do much of anything in return, bar a Weezing explosion or Dusknoir Fire Punch? O_o
 
Weezing does 57% average with Fire Blast or 45% with Flamethrower (assuming no defensive investment from Heracross or offensive investment from Weezing), but it's definitely not even close to "enough" considering how much Heracross will do to it and how easy it is to play around. I imagine it'll be doing more damage with Pain Split most of the time, anyway...

Heracross would fit in even worse than Cress did, I think. He'd be like the math club in Mean Girls.
 
if hera came down, weezing would be the only thing with a chance of saving UU.

max att jolly hera life orb vs max/max bold weezing, stone edge 26.3% - 31.1%

obviously dangerous with SD. but with guts activated i think (smogon calculator doesnt work with guts?) there is a chance of a 2HKO with SR.

Im not even sure if weezing is worth the bother. I think revenge killing it will be the best option as long as it isnt scarfed. (thank goodness it doesnt get priority... outside vacuum wave.lol.)

Lets not also forget the other option that hera can run on a choice set; pursuit.
 
im guessing that the april fools prank this year is going to be putting heracross in UU or something of the sort. just be ready guys
 
It might shock you to hear this from me, but I personally do not think Heracross should even be tested in UU if it comes to that.

I know that we shouldn't ever think of a Pokemon as "obviously BL" before at least some testing, but if there is ever a case which has a clear precedent it is Heracross. As far as what it does well, it is ridiculously similar to Gallade, who was banned for being able to break through stall far too easily and I would like to hear anyone who has a good argument explaining why Heracross wouldn't be just as destructive, or even why it wouldn't be even better. Gallade's only major advantages are no Fire weakness and Shadow Sneak, but arguably Heracross more than makes up for this with more useful resistances (esp. Dark), better overall defenses, the ability to outrun all the common base 80s, a much stronger second STAB and a much better ability for burn absorption.

In fact Shadow Sneak wasn't all that relevant anyway, as it had very little to do with the fact that Gallade was just too effective against defensive teams, and I am sure that Heracross would NOT be any worse at that. Gallade actually had a handful of half-decent viable defensive checks in UU, whilst Heracross has precisely one. And probably wouldn't have many type-coverage issues in the process.
 
Here is a calculation that I found hilarious:

+2 Guts boosted Facade on max HP/max Def Weezing: 92.8%-109%

O_o
 
HR. said:
Here is a calculation that I found hilarious:

+2 Guts boosted Facade on max HP/max Def Weezing: 92.8%-109%

O_o
Click to expand...

Another one:

+2 Guts boosted Megahorn on a 136/0 Rhyperior: 123.7% - 145.4%


That's f.king Rhyperior beaten by a physical neutral move. Ohh my...

Good to show how this thing is powerful... because no one's gonna use Megahorn against Rhyperior lol
 
Arcanine will make an excellent check to Heracross, almost similar to how people handled Gallade back then. The only difference now is that Arcanine needs to invest 176 Spe rather than 136 Spe to outpace Heracross. Unfortunately, I think that's the best check to Heracross if it ever came down. Defensive Moltres can check it as well, but its never a bright idea to check something when your wall is fucked by Stealth Rock.
 
I also agree with not testing Heracross. We should bring this forth towards to policy boards when he drops down to UU. We theorymoned Cress and P-Z to a certain extent, but weren't 100% sure of how powerful they would be in UU. Heracross on the other hand is absolutely sickening.

It's moveset allows it to counter all of it's checks.
I would not want to play a metagame with such a pokemon.
 
I think you guys are over hyping Heracross. I think that Heracross will not be broken. I don't think he will ever get the chance to set up a Swords Dance on anything but Stall. And, I don't think think that Burn Orb and low speed is too great of an idea. Think about it. You have to take an attack on the switch in, SR, a turn of Burn Damage and another attack just to set up Swords Dance. And there's a chance that he will only be getting one attack in, (while probably lowering his average defenses) since from there he can be revenged by a lot of Pokemon. 85 speed is good in UU, but it is by no means fast. If you are gonna be using Heracross, I would use a Choice Set so you won't be a dead weight against offense. Choice Band is still going to beat the crap out of stall, but all Choice Sets are easy to play around, especially if one STAB has Pokemon that are immune to it, and the other one is resisted by 6 types. I think it should be tested for sure.
 
Leman said:
I think you guys are over hyping Gallade. I think that Gallade will not be broken. I don't think he will ever get the chance to set up a Swords Dance on anything but Stall. Think about it. You have to take an attack on the switch in, SR, and another attack just to set up Swords Dance. And there's a chance that he will only be getting one attack in, (while probably lowering his average defenses) since from there he can be revenged by a lot of Pokemon. 80 speed is good in UU, but it is by no means fast. If you are gonna be using Gallade, I would use a Choice Set so you won't be a dead weight against offense. Choice Band is still going to beat the crap out of stall, but all Choice Sets are easy to play around, especially if one STAB has Pokemon that are immune to it, and the other one also has Pokemon immune to it and is resisted by 2 other types. I think it should be tested for sure.
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See how much of this equally applies to Gallade? (except for the burn thing as that is a luxury option only Heracross has, and it isn't an advantage to not have something). There is a precedent here, so you have to explain what Gallade has that makes it broken that Heracross does not.
 
The problem is that if Guts Heracross wants to kill something, Guts Heracross will kill something. Bring it in on something not immediately threatening and annihilate the switch-in, toss it in front of a Venusaur's Sleep Powder and start Dancing, or just sit there with decent defenses and great defensive typing and take hits while KO'ing back. You can even run a ResTalk set and keep yourself alive while dishing out the hurt. Heracross has TWO 120 bp STABS and can literally 2HKO everything in the tier. In return, the only real threats I can see are Scyther and Swellow, both of which can be KO'ed on the switch and won't like it if Heracross has SR support. If that's not an offensive suspect, I don't know what is.
 
Lemmiwinks MkII said:
See how much of this equally applies to Gallade? (except for the burn thing as that is a luxury option only Heracross has, and it isn't an advantage to not have something). There is a precedent here, so you have to explain what Gallade has that makes it broken that Heracross does not.
Click to expand...

Honestly I didn't think Gallade was broken. So I can't really argue with that. Gallade was not "obviously broken" though. It might not have sounded like it, but what I was trying to argue against was the "quick boot" to BL, and argue for a test for Heracross. Heracross might prove to be broken (I don't think it will) but it deserves to be tested first, rather than banned off of pure theory.
 
Leman said:
Honestly I didn't think Gallade was broken. So I can't really argue with that. Gallade was not "obviously broken" though. It might not have sounded like it, but what I was trying to argue against was the "quick boot" to BL, and argue for a test for Heracross. Heracross might prove to be broken (I don't think it will) but it deserves to be tested first, rather than banned off of pure theory.
Click to expand...

A "quick boot" suggests that we test it and ban it relatively quickly. I completely disagree with this method since it is reeks of confirmation bias, but it isn't as bad as purely "theorybanning" something. Heracross will have to be anonymously thought of as BL for a "quick boot" anyway, at least much more so than Cresselia.
 
At first I was going to say that Heracross would be undeniably broken, but now I'm not so sure. The reason I say this is because it is just like Rhyperior, except with worse Attack. Sure, its attacks are more powerful, but Rhyperior has 15 higher base Attack. While we are starting to discuss whether Rhyperior should be a suspect, people didn't think it was broken for a while. This is really bugging me, because I don't want to have Heracross in UU, but I can't think of a good argument as to why since Rhyperior seems to be better.
 
Heracross would definitely be interesting. I'd be in favor of giving it a proper test instead of an outright ban.

Tentacruel coming down would not only balance Moltres, but it would be a great counter to special Rain sweepers.
 
Counter to Special Rain Sweepers? Ludicolo maybe, but Gorebyss can use Psychic, and Omastar can use Earth Power.

TBH if I needed an Infernape check/counter in OU I would probably use Starmie, maybe Vaporeon (if running HP Ice over Grass Knot).
 
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