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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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The real problem with Zard is its much worse bulk, so it cannot really afford to switch into Hitmontop/Lee so much without the risk of eventually getting outdamaged. Moltres can also withstand a CB Aqua Jet from Azumarill, something Charizard wishes so badly it could do. It's also worth noting that if it goes for a Modest nature it's ironically outsped by Hitmonlee by a single point, nothing too troublesome but that might bite back.
However, Charizard's vast movepool is something to have in mind; and access to Focus Punch/Blast, DD among other can mess stall up badly.
However, Charizard's vast movepool is something to have in mind; and access to Focus Punch/Blast, DD among other can mess stall up badly.
Oh yeah, I understand his limitations, but I put him up for a fine replacement for Moltres if it ever gets banned.
Also, has anyone noticed the MASSIVE decrease in Ambipom?!?
If Moltres was to go, I could easily see Charizard replacing it on people's teams without a second thought. It's hard to argue that Moltres isn't the better Pokemon, but it's definitely far more one-dimensional than Charizard. It's more difficult to 'hard counter' Charizard than Moltres since it can run so many more viable sets, both physical and special. There is nothing Moltres can really do to dent Chansey, but would you risk switching pink blob jr into a Charizard that could potentially Belly Drum / Swords Dance / Dragon Dance in your face? Similarly, Milotic is toast if BellyZard Subs on the switch and two turns later hits it with a +6 ThunderPunch. And on the other side of the spectrum, Regirock won't enjoy a Specs Focus Blast, or Slowbro (a much more viable check for the average Charizard, because of its physical inclinations, than the average Moltres) a Specs Air Slash.
Charizard has access to Flare Blitz, Earthquake, ThunderPunch, Fire Punch, Double-Edge, and Focus Blast, as well as being able to boost its stats with DD / SD / BD, something Moltres can't do at all. In terms of movepool the only thing Moltres has over Zard is U-turn. But while Moltres boasts its 125 SpA and 90/90/85 defenses in UU, Charizard won't get the opportunity to shine. It loses one of its biggest assets - its unpredictability. Do you run a special attacker and make it an (arguably, because of Focus Blast) inferior Moltres, or do you stick to its current mold of a physical attacker and give Regirock, Rhyperior and Slowbro an easy time? Well if Moltres goes, the former will become a seriously viable option, and so I wouldn't be surprised if in this theoretical situation Charizard becomes very nearly as big a threat as Moltres currently is.
Charizard has access to Flare Blitz, Earthquake, ThunderPunch, Fire Punch, Double-Edge, and Focus Blast, as well as being able to boost its stats with DD / SD / BD, something Moltres can't do at all. In terms of movepool the only thing Moltres has over Zard is U-turn. But while Moltres boasts its 125 SpA and 90/90/85 defenses in UU, Charizard won't get the opportunity to shine. It loses one of its biggest assets - its unpredictability. Do you run a special attacker and make it an (arguably, because of Focus Blast) inferior Moltres, or do you stick to its current mold of a physical attacker and give Regirock, Rhyperior and Slowbro an easy time? Well if Moltres goes, the former will become a seriously viable option, and so I wouldn't be surprised if in this theoretical situation Charizard becomes very nearly as big a threat as Moltres currently is.
Excellently put... Legacy Raider?!? Where the heck have you been dude?
Also, Aggron is back.
Just check this set out:
Aggron
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Item: Chople Berry / Life Orb
Nature: Adamant
Moveset:
~Head Smash
~Rock Polish
~Magnet Rise
~Aqua Tail / Ice Punch
I've always found to be quite frail (despite his appearance) but by forgoing Magnet Rise, you can finally say SCREW YOU to Donphan, Rhyperior and the gang. ChopleBerry is almost exclusively pokemon who think they can act smart by using a fighting move on Aggron. For example, Absols Superpower fails to OHKO while you crush it with Head smash. (Other examples include the annoying as hell Scyther's Brick break)
It's a fun set to use, but there's a noticeable drop in power.
Yes, I do realize that M-blade and others ran this set. (Sorry for ignoring you guys earlier!!!)
I'm walking on sunshine...
Also, Aggron is back.
Just check this set out:
Aggron
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Item: Chople Berry / Life Orb
Nature: Adamant
Moveset:
~Head Smash
~Rock Polish
~Magnet Rise
~Aqua Tail / Ice Punch
I've always found to be quite frail (despite his appearance) but by forgoing Magnet Rise, you can finally say SCREW YOU to Donphan, Rhyperior and the gang. ChopleBerry is almost exclusively pokemon who think they can act smart by using a fighting move on Aggron. For example, Absols Superpower fails to OHKO while you crush it with Head smash. (Other examples include the annoying as hell Scyther's Brick break)
It's a fun set to use, but there's a noticeable drop in power.
Yes, I do realize that M-blade and others ran this set. (Sorry for ignoring you guys earlier!!!)
I'm walking on sunshine...
Hey :) yeah I'm trying to get back in the game now that my future is sorted haha. Yeah I've used a very similar Aggron set quite successfully before. I don't think Magnet Rise on Aggron is nearly as gimmicky an option as it is so often made out to be. It's something that really differentiates it and makes it something other than a Rhy-inferior (not wanting to bring up the arguments from a couple of pages back). Anyway, this is the set I ran:
Aggron @ Life Orb
Adamant - Rock Head
52 HP / 252 Atk / 204 Spe
- Head Smash
- Rock Polish
- Magnet Rise
- Aqua Tail
You don't really need max speed on RP Aggron. Max Speed gives you a stat of 398 after a polish, but since there are no base 130 speed pokemon in UU, and the base 125 Swellow can't scratch you in the slightest, you really only need to aim to beat the base 120s such as Alakazam, Dugtrio and Sceptile. 204 Spe EVs beat them by 2 points after a polish. The extra HP EVs give it a nice boost in survivability because of its low base. Life Orb helps in getting your damage output up to scratch, but if you were to run a Type Resist Berry, I'd personally use a Passho Berry (water resist) over a Chople Berry. I've found things like Milotic, Quagsire and Slowbro being used far more commonly as Aggron checks than things like Hitmontop. Aggron also has a much better shot at beating these Water-types than it does in beating Hitmontop, Hariyama, Poliwrath, etc, since they resist its STAB Head Smash as well. In those cases I think its better to simply cut your losses and give your Venusaur a free switch in :).
Aggron @ Life Orb
Adamant - Rock Head
52 HP / 252 Atk / 204 Spe
- Head Smash
- Rock Polish
- Magnet Rise
- Aqua Tail
You don't really need max speed on RP Aggron. Max Speed gives you a stat of 398 after a polish, but since there are no base 130 speed pokemon in UU, and the base 125 Swellow can't scratch you in the slightest, you really only need to aim to beat the base 120s such as Alakazam, Dugtrio and Sceptile. 204 Spe EVs beat them by 2 points after a polish. The extra HP EVs give it a nice boost in survivability because of its low base. Life Orb helps in getting your damage output up to scratch, but if you were to run a Type Resist Berry, I'd personally use a Passho Berry (water resist) over a Chople Berry. I've found things like Milotic, Quagsire and Slowbro being used far more commonly as Aggron checks than things like Hitmontop. Aggron also has a much better shot at beating these Water-types than it does in beating Hitmontop, Hariyama, Poliwrath, etc, since they resist its STAB Head Smash as well. In those cases I think its better to simply cut your losses and give your Venusaur a free switch in :).
Excellent!!! And that's a funny catchphrase.
Fantastic set. Seriously dude, thanks for the edit. Aggron NEEDED something like this, and now he's totally got it. I guess I wanted to effectively weaken Aggron's 4X resistances but Passho berry looks really good to. You should give this set a mention in Heysup's Aggron topic. It could be Aggron's chance at a UU comeback.
I'm glad that people are using Magnet Rise on RP Aggron!
Really, i tried the RP+3 attacks, and it wasn't that nice. I kept losing to things the Magnet Rise one doesn't.
Anyway: I run max speed just in case of Scarfers (the base 80 ones with neutral nature outspeeds Aggron with 204 speed).
Really, i tried the RP+3 attacks, and it wasn't that nice. I kept losing to things the Magnet Rise one doesn't.
Anyway: I run max speed just in case of Scarfers (the base 80 ones with neutral nature outspeeds Aggron with 204 speed).
I'm really sorry about that M blade. (I was kinda bashing Aggron without even using him) but I can truly see that it can be a good threat to most teams.
Partners include pokemon who can handle fighting pokes (Rotom and the gang, and other pokemon.) and pokemon who can take on Water types that can break Aggron's Passho berry. (If using it at all)
I think that Rotom would be a perfect partner to that aggron since it would take care of things that beat that set IE. Bulky Waters and Fighting types.
lol kinda late to the party there
Dude, Aggron's the star of THIS party now. RP Rhyperior's a lot bulkier, has better coverage, but also somewhat weaker [NEEDS to run jolly]
Still, Aggron's harder to force now with his trusty Magnet rise. Okay, RP Rhyperior MIGHT be better, but not by much, and Aggron's superior typing [factoring magnet rise] power and speed might give him the edge.
Still, Aggron's harder to force now with his trusty Magnet rise. Okay, RP Rhyperior MIGHT be better, but not by much, and Aggron's superior typing [factoring magnet rise] power and speed might give him the edge.
Yeah so Torterra is starting to lose its effectiveness a little with a lot more Leafeon running around, along with Weezing (who just stops him dead cold), and even mroe Donphan with Ice Shard. People are just becoming a lot more aware on how to handle it.
Weezing + Chansey is a great combo btw.
Weezing + Chansey is a great combo btw.
Donphan can barely scratch Torterra with Ice Shard
I absolutely love CB Rhyp. It's amazing to see people switch Slowbro or something like that into it and get 2HKO'd by Stone Edge. I'm not really sure what the 4th move to CB Rhyp should be (Stone Edge/EQ/Megahorn/??). Aqua Tail does seem kind of redundant as you have perfect coverage with 3 attacks already anyway (Opposing Rhyperior aren't going to take EQ well at all anyway). I'm using Stealth Rock as my 4th move atm, simply because I need it on my team, and 9/10 times in the early game, Rhyperior is going to be forced out anyway. It also gives the opponent the impression that Rhyperior is relatively harmless when it's actually a killing machine =D.
Anyway, I saw the Charizard discussion above, and everyone's saying "Well if Moltres gets banned, Charizard usage should rise, since it's just an inferior Moltres." Well, firstly, Charizard is much more versatile, just like LR as said. Being able DD/SD/BD for physical sets as well as running special and mixed sets is what should define Charizard over Moltres. Even if Moltres is better at Special sweeping, there's no reason to not run the exact same set on Charizard alongside Moltres, another one of those "double-<Insert type here>" combo, where Moltres would lure out its counters, weaken them enough so Charizard can come in like a 2nd Moltres and finish the job (Can work vice versa). It's kind of like the SalaQuaza combo people use in Ubers. The only difference is that having two 4x SR weak Pokemon on your team is dangerous, and the Charizard/Moltres pair would be walled by Chansey anyway if you're running special.
Anyway, I saw the Charizard discussion above, and everyone's saying "Well if Moltres gets banned, Charizard usage should rise, since it's just an inferior Moltres." Well, firstly, Charizard is much more versatile, just like LR as said. Being able DD/SD/BD for physical sets as well as running special and mixed sets is what should define Charizard over Moltres. Even if Moltres is better at Special sweeping, there's no reason to not run the exact same set on Charizard alongside Moltres, another one of those "double-<Insert type here>" combo, where Moltres would lure out its counters, weaken them enough so Charizard can come in like a 2nd Moltres and finish the job (Can work vice versa). It's kind of like the SalaQuaza combo people use in Ubers. The only difference is that having two 4x SR weak Pokemon on your team is dangerous, and the Charizard/Moltres pair would be walled by Chansey anyway if you're running special.
Hi! Welcome back!
I did spend time writing an analysis with team options for a reason!
Rotom is good, but consider Altaria. The only types they don't collectively resist are Steel and Electric.
Leech Seed - use it. Seriously the SubSeed Torterra set was one of the best sets I ran. People would always switch in Weezing or Leafeon only to be met with Leech Seed and Toxic respectively.
shrang said:
I think Bluewind posted this RMT that reached #1 on the leaderboard a while ago, running two Pokemon 4x weak to SR - Scyther and Moltres. So it's doable. Don't remember much else about the team though other than it did have a spinner and possibly a Hariyama lead.
I also don't play Ubers so I don't know how good Salamence + Rayquaza works there, but presumably a team's counters to these two Pokemon don't have reliable recovery? In UU, the biggest counters to Moltres like Milotic, Chansey and Slowing all have reliable recovery, making me sceptical about how well Charizard + Moltres would work if they run the same set. Maybe take advantage of Charizard's versatility to go mixed, at least.
Well, Chansey is going to wall you no matter what. The thing is to lure Milotic in with Moltres (Or Charizard), and hit it as hard as you can before you go down. I'm going to have do some calcs to see if its viable or not, but the thing is just to weaken Milotic/Slowking as much as you can with HP Grass or something like before they kill Moltres. Then, before they can recover, bring in Charizard in for the kill. Again, I'm going to do some calcs to verify if this is viable or not.
EDIT: On the topic of Zard, anyone tried out the SD set??
DOUBLE EDIT: Ok, relevant calcs (I only did Milotic because its what most people run):
Modest 252 SpA Moltres Air Slash vs 252/0 Bold Milotic: 35.79% - 42.13%
Modest 252 SpA Moltres HP Grass vs 252/0 Bold Milotic: 44.67% - 52.79%
Timid 252 SpA Charizard HP Grass vs 252/0 Bold Milotic: 37.06% - 44.16%
So here, we can see that the standard Bold Milotic would be KO'd by the duo. Basically, if you've lured in Milotic with Moltres, don't bother switching out, just hurt Milotic as much as you can before going down so Charizard can come in and clean her up. Modest is the preferred nature here since Moltres is there to just deal massive amounts of damage, so Speed isn't too much of an issue (You have Charizard for the Speed anyway).
EDIT: On the topic of Zard, anyone tried out the SD set??
DOUBLE EDIT: Ok, relevant calcs (I only did Milotic because its what most people run):
Modest 252 SpA Moltres Air Slash vs 252/0 Bold Milotic: 35.79% - 42.13%
Modest 252 SpA Moltres HP Grass vs 252/0 Bold Milotic: 44.67% - 52.79%
Timid 252 SpA Charizard HP Grass vs 252/0 Bold Milotic: 37.06% - 44.16%
So here, we can see that the standard Bold Milotic would be KO'd by the duo. Basically, if you've lured in Milotic with Moltres, don't bother switching out, just hurt Milotic as much as you can before going down so Charizard can come in and clean her up. Modest is the preferred nature here since Moltres is there to just deal massive amounts of damage, so Speed isn't too much of an issue (You have Charizard for the Speed anyway).
I don't find SD Zard to be all that appealing. Without a speed boost or priority, Zard's sweep will end fast.
While SD Zard is awesome, I don't think a recoil set like that would work. It fits under my main argument why LO Kou isn't broken (dies too easily) and takes it to the next level. Running only one recoil move is one thing, but when your coverage move is also recoil, not even Roost will be able to save you if you're holding LO. Especially due to being outsped and KO'd on the Roost. If it were holding Leftovers it would be another story. Anyway, I think DD would be better for that set so you don't get outsped while Roosting and it should hold Lefties despite the power decrease, unless there are significant KO's provided by LO.
Um how does LO Raikou even remotely close to *dying to easily* it's surprisingly bulky for a speedy electric. It can take a dish out some damage before going down. It's FAR more bulkier than other LO sweeper such as Mismagius, Magmortar and more.
Meh LO SD Zard doesn't impress. Your much better of just using a standard DD set with DD/Fire Punch/Thunder Punch/Roost.
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